The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special

[Anonymous @]

@Shazzbot –

I myself also noted Stormageddon’s name when it was revealed, but didn’t link that to the ‘Oncoming Storm’ of the description of the Doctor in any serious way.

Yeah, that theory takes a few steps beyond the realm of bonkers and ceratinly wasn’t meant to be taken seriously – just some idle musing that has absolutely no chance of actually happening.

Regarding your remarks about accent & characterization, differences between McGann’s & Eccleston’s portrayals, PTSD could account for a lot of the personality changes. Lightning strikes & other forms of electrocution can also cause personality changes (and changes in speech, although I’ve never heard of it causing someone to adopt a different regional accent), so maybe he got hit by some lightning-like weapon durin the war? Finally, maybe he spent a lengthy period of time in the north of some planet (lots of them have one, after all 🙂 ) and the accent grew on him.

As far as number theories go, particularly with regard to the Trenzalore prophecy, I’m not entirely sure how much weight we should give to what number Doctor MS is. The prophecy talks about “the fall of the eleventh”, but doesn’t specifically say “the eleventh Doctor“. It could be the 11th anything. Similarly, we don’t know what it means by “fall” – it could mean death, or a physical fall, or something more metaphorical like a fall from power or grace. Maybe it refers to the fall of the 11th Great and Bountiful Human Empire? If so, there could still be a long time before the prophecy’s in any danger of fulfillment, since we haven’t seen anything beyond the 4th GBHE.

 

 

[Anonymous @]

MadScientist72 – well, there’s lots of things that can change one’s accent … 🙂

 The prophecy talks about “the fall of the eleventh”, but doesn’t specifically say “the eleventh Doctor“. It could be the 11th anything. Similarly, we don’t know what it means by “fall” – it could mean death, or a physical fall, or something more metaphorical like a fall from power or grace.

These are all the semantic issues which have been raised plenty of times on this site; but obviously, never theorised into anything which gains community consensus because the terms are so ‘open’.

What is interesting about your theory of non-regeneration between McGann and Ecclestone is the assumptions of Who fans:  because we’ve been told by RTD [and BBC everyone] that 2005 was a ‘re-boot’ of the programme; so, we have to assume that CE was unquestionably a different iteration of the Doctor than had been seen before.  But, why so?;  you have cleverly asked.

It could very well be that RTD was pandering to an audience which expected each new actor to portray a different incarnation of the character.  Well, ‘pandering’ is a pejorative term, and doesn’t allow for the hopes of the BBC to garner new audience members who were unaware of what ‘regeneration’ means.  This is what I find so alluring about your theory:   it’s working against the assumption that there had to be an unseen regeneration between McGann and Ecclestone.

And working against that assumption allows for a very long game to be played, post reboot.   (Well, not so long, if they play it out in 2013.)  But it would certainly afford The Moff to stay true to his word; in that, in this 50th anniversary year, we’d see a progression of the show which takes into account both its history and its possible future(s).

 

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@MadScientist72 – busily catching up on posts.

he implication is that he did stand and stare, and if he ran, it was what he saw there that made him run.

Hmm. It depends on the interpretation of the line; did he run away rather than look, or did he run away after looking? Similarly with the lines with Rose: he knows that looking into the Time Vortex can drive you mad – but is that because he’s looked, or because he knows what happened to the people who did?

Regarding the Valeyard thing – this has been discussed before; there are two continuities (which is why we all get so confused). One is what was said on TV. The other is what was said in the Target novelisation. They’re slightly different: the TV version has the Valeyard as a sort of Dream Lord made flesh, sometime around Doctor 13 and his final regeneration. The novelisation has the Valeyard as the Thirteenth Doctor.

The problem now is that we have been quite specifically told that both the GI and Clara have changed the continuities. So which one is now the correct version?

 I think Bluey avoids the Next Doctor thread out of frustrated ennui at the protracted and pointless guessing

@Shazzbot – got it in one. Congratulations on your promotion, by the way. 😀

[Anonymous @]

Thank you @bluesqueakpip – it was a drawn-out audition process, trust me.  I had to prove to Our Craig that I can nose my way about the 3 different programme elements that make up this site.

Similarly with the lines with Rose: he knows that looking into the Time Vortex can drive you mad – but is that because he’s looked, or because he knows what happened to the people who did?

That’s an interesting point.  I’d always assumed the former (and the implication being that he was strong enough to withstand the battering from what he saw there);  but of course with events surrounding the Master and 10, it’s quite possible it’s the latter.

Oh, with every new idea I feel the need to re-watch hours and hours to get a new feel for events!  And even then, I fear, I’d end up with more questions than grounded theories.  {sigh}  Which is, of course, what makes the programme so darned enjoyable – the various interpretations are endless.

[Noodles @noodles]

@shazzbot The endless possibilities with the character of the Doctor is what has kept me a fan for so many years. And, like you, I’ve taken a bite of the apple and re-watched endless episodes for clarity. Honestly, I’ve been forced to create my own personal canon…just to be able to connect the dots. It’s something that is constantly re-evaluated with each new episode.

That is what keeps this series fun, and why I’ve been a fan since BG to AG….or whatever you want to call it. The speculation of what is going to happen next has kept me intrigued since 1980-something to now.

@MadScientist72 Thanks for replying to my post a couple days ago…being a newbie here, wasn’t sure if anything I posted carried any merit. The entire ‘Susan becomes the Doctor’ discussion is rather important to me, as it’s part of my “personal canon” I mentioned before. I would prefer to see the death of the Doctor (1963 – 2013/2014) as we know him, and it’s taken up by his descendants…namely Susan, and the name ‘Doctor’ is a name that is chosen rather than given. Something to be feared as the “Last Time Lord”.

Indulge me for a moment…as this is not a new idea, but one that I firmly adhere to. In a Tom Baker episode, he is ‘brain scanned'(?…I think it’s in the serial ‘Brain of Morbius’…I could be wrong, it’s been years since I saw it) and images of past incarnations of the Doctor are shown. The images show the Doctor well beyond the 12 regenerations we are familiar with as the life-span of a Galifreyan Time Lord (which is a title…not a race!)…all prior or post to Hartnell as Doctor 1. Which only leads me to the conclusion that when Doctor # 2 is forced to regenerate as punishment, there is a split in space/time…multiple realities that exist and multiple Doctors come into being. One being ‘The Master’ (if you believe that they are ‘brothers’, half-human…blah, blah, blah 1996 TV movie of shame, the Doctor lies and so do the producers of the show)…others being multiples of the good intentions Character.

What I’m saying is, there is so much convolution of the canon of the BG series to AG series…that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!

What I want to see come Nov 23 is the death of the Doctor (1963-2013), and the birth of a ‘New Doctor’…whether that be he/she takes on stealing regenerations as the Master did, or being ‘reborn’ as a descendant of the Hartnell era. I just want the series to tie the two disparate ‘gaps’ together.

Sorry for posting a rant…I just love the series. My view point is only influenced by way of the TV show…I’m not adding the radio dramas or fan fictions or books. If it wasn’t in the TV show, it didn’t happen.

I’m not opposed to being totally ripped apart by more knowledgeable fans…if you disagree with my thoughts, feel free to fire away. Either by PM or responding directly…I prefer discussion, but I’m always up for a good argument. Being American, confrontation is my thing.

I’m sorry if all my points are not fleshed out fully…I tend to type faster than my brain allows me to expand on. I hope this rant / tirade makes sense. Thanks for reading it!

Cheers,

N~dles

[Noodles @noodles]

…to continue my rant, a thought occurred to me. Perhaps a TARDIS is the ultimate evolution of a Time Lord? It’s been established that the TARDIS is a living entity…so could it be that the ‘Doctor’ as a title or chosen name is knowledge passed down through the use of a specific time travel device? Specifically, the old blue police box? Just a thought!

N~dles

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip (and Shazzbot)

Similarly with the lines with Rose: he knows that looking into the Time Vortex can drive you mad – but is that because he’s looked, or because he knows what happened to the people who did?

I think the telling part of the line “That’s what I see, all the time. Doesn’t it drive you mad?” is the beginning. If he hadn’t looked, why he see “all that is, all that was, all that ever could be” all the time?

Regarding the Valeyard thing – this has been discussed before; there are two continuities (which is why we all get so confused). One is what was said on TV. The other is what was said in the Target novelisation.

Considering that the TV show came first, I’m of the opinion that TV trumps novel in cases of disagreement. Another aspect of what the Master said makes me doubt the truth of either claim of the Valeyard’s origins. The Master claims that, in return for “adjusting” the evidence against the Doctor, “he was promised the remainder of the Docotor’s regenerations”. If the Doctor’s remaining regenerations were stripped and given to the Valeyard, he would never be able to reach his 12th/13th regeneration and the Valeyard would never come into existence – a Time lord version of the Grandfather Paradox. So, I think that either the Master lied, or the Valeyard is merely pretending to be a future (fragment of the) Doctor.

@Noodles

being a newbie here, wasn’t sure if anything I posted carried any merit.

I’m a newbie here too, so you don’t have to worry about me holding that against you. I’m also an American (and we’re massively outnumbered here by Brits), so I’m certainly not going to dismiss anyone here for not being “part of the herd”.

 One being ‘The Master’ (if you believe that they are ‘brothers’, half-human…blah, blah, blah 1996 TV movie of shame, the Doctor lies and so do the producers of the show)…

I don’t think the Master is an evil incarnation of the Doctor. Although the Doctor is a notorious liar, he has consistently (both BG and AG) maintained that he & the Master were childhood friends.

could it be that the ‘Doctor’ as a title or chosen name is knowledge passed down through the use of a specific time travel device? Specifically, the old blue police box?

Would that mean that Bad Wolf Rose actually became the Doctor temporarily when she piloted the Tardis back to Satellite 5 to save CE from the Daleks?

[Anonymous @]

@Shazzbot

well, there’s lots of things that can change one’s accent

Foreign accent syndrome, huh? Well there we go then. PMcG + PTSD + FAS from a TBI = CE, without need for a regeneration!

That does open up the question: who was 11th face of the Doctor that Clara saw? But I’ve got some more bonkers theories for that:

1. Meta-Crisis David Tennant (MCDT) – Maybe she saw both Original Recipie David Tennant (ORDT) and MCDT and was able to tell that they were not the same individual. I don’t think this is likely, since ORDT’s Hand getting cut off would have created a branching of the timestream off or the “real” Doctor’s. To use genealogical terms, MCDT is more like a half-brother (ORDT father + Donna Noble mother) to Matt Smith’s Doctor than an ancestor. (I suppose MCDT could count as face #11 if he is somehow also Matt Smith’s successor – a future Doctor who Clara sees in the timestream because he’s also part of the Doctor’s past.)
2. The Valeyard – He does figure into the Doctors past (the trial), so she certainly could have seen him in the timestream. If he truly is (a fragment of) the Doctor, she might even have recognized that. As I said above, I believe that either the Master or the Valeyard himself lied about his origins, so I don’t think he’s who Clara saw.*
3. A “Proto-Valeyard” – Whether or not the Valeyard really is a fragment of the Doctor, I don’t think the Master would have made the claim if such a thing wasn’t possible. The Doctor could have undergone such a karmic purge more than once over the course of his regenerations. The Valeyard was said to be an “amalgamation of the darker side” of the Doctor, but there’s nothing to say he couldn’t dump other things in there too. Where the Valeyard was an embodiment of evil & hate, the Doctor could have undergone another purge to get rid of some crushing sense of guilt. As you may be guessing right about now, I don’t think this is Clara’s 11th face, because I suspect that (assuming PMcG & CE are the same regeneration) this is DrHurt.**
4. The Watcher – This was a temporary manifestation that occurred during the regneration from #4 to #5 (Logopolis). Clara could have seen it, but I don’t think this was face #11, since the Watcher didn’t really have a face to speak of.
5. Doctor Zero – He would definitely be a part of the Doctor’s past. We know little to nothing about what happens to Gallifreyans during the initiation into the Time Lords (aside from looking into the Untempered Schism at age 8), so it’s entirely possible that a regeneration is involved & Clara could have seen this happen. I think this would be the most likely candidate.

*If what the Master said regarding his intent to steal the Doctor’s regenerations is true, it would indicate that he didn’t have any of his own, so any  appearance in the Doctor’s timestream would have to be Michael Jayston, not John Hurt. An argument could be made that his occurrence “between” the 12th & final (13th) regenerations means that he didn’t happen as part of a regenration cycle, but during the tenure of the 12th Doctor. This could have given him one regeneration to play with – possibly to go from John Hurt to Michael Jayston before the trial. However, if the Valeyard got one regenration as a fragment of #12, MCDT should have gotten 3 (or 4) as a fragment of ORDT (depending on whether ORDT is #10 or #9). In Journey’s end, however, we learned that MCDT can’t regenerate (he also ages like humans and has only one heart), so we can expect that the “no regeneration” principle would hold true for the Valeyard too. So, any way you slice it – whether the Valeyard is a Doctor fragment who can’t regenerate, or just a big fat liar – DrHurt cannot possibly be the Valeyard.

**This could explain the look of apparent surprise/shock on Mat smith’s face when he sees DrHurt in the timestream. If he believed that that aspect of his past had been thoroughly excised, he would consider them to be separate individuals post-split, with separate timestreams. As such, in the Doctor’s eye, he shouldn’t have been there.

[Anonymous @]

One more possibility for the 11th face:

6. The Peter Cushing version of the Doctor from the films  Dr. Who and the Daleks (1965) and Daleks – Invasion Earth: 2150 A.D. (1966) – The likelihood of this would depend on who the Doctor really is. His time falls within that of WH, so putting him into the order (if he belongs there at all) would be tricky. He travels with his granddaughter – but she’s a child & goes by Suzy – so he could be a younger version of WH. On the other hand, his Barbara and Ian were very different to WH’s (PC’s Barbara was another granddaughter). He was also portrayed as a human “inventor”, rather than a Time Lord – possibly an alternate-reality version of WH or an older version of MCDT? Other theories have been proposed, including that he was some sort of decoy created by the real Doctor to fool an enemy. Or he could be considered “non-canonical” and, therefore non-existent in the in-series world. However he is (or is not) explained, it’s clear that he is not an incarantion of “the” Doctor, so he wouldn’t be one of the 11 faces.

[Anonymous @]

I’m not sure how much interest this will be to peeps here (I personally love all this stuff), but here’s a rather cool VFX breakdown of that rather splendid fan trailer for the anniversary that was doing the rounds recently…

[Anonymous @]

OK, time for more bonkers theorizing – possibly the most bonkers yet!

What if DrHurt is the real Doctor and the CE/DT/MS Doctor is an “impostor” – the personality fragment that will eventually become the Valeyard? It’s possible that the Master wasn’t lying about the Valeyard’s origins, but was simply wrong about the timing. (For the purposes of this theory)  the split actually occurred during the Time War, somehow aging #8 from Paul McGann into John Hurt. When the fragment (as CE) saw what the doctor had done, he decided that he was no longer worthy of the name, imprisoned him somehow and assumed the mantle of “the Doctor” for himself. Because he is part of the Doctor (and possibly actually believes that he is the Doctor), he was able to fool the Tardis for a long time, but sometime in the future (probably when he reaches his last regeneration [2 regenerations from now] and becomes the Valeyard), she realizes the truth and sets out to free the real Doctor. She creates the GI and, improving on the method used by House (The Doctor’s Wife), actually becomes Clara. (The reason the Tardis appears to be dying on Trenzalore in NotD is that she’s not in it.) She jumps into the Doctor’s timestream, not to save MS, but because she’s learned that that’s where JH has been imprisoned. She knows that MS will follow her & this will give JH the chance he needs to break free, after which she’ll be able to reunite her mind with the body of the Tardis, reviving the ship. However, among her improvements to House’s method is a way to be in the ship and sustainably in Clara’s body at the same time, allowing her to be both ship and companion.

Once JH is free, he’ll fight with MS. JH will win, but both will be badly injured and need to regenerate. MS’s successor – now only 1 regeneration away from being the Valeyard – will flee in the younger version of the Tardis (the one he arrived on Trenzalore in) while the real Doctor (JH’s successor, now #9) will leave with Clara in the revived older (tomb) Tardis. The pre-Valeyard will become the Doctor’s arch-nemesis throughout the next season, in the way the Master was BG.

[Anonymous @]

MadScientist72  – wow.  And I thought I had won the crown for most bonkers theory when I suggested that Jenny (from The Doctor’s Daughter) had regenerated into the Hurt Doctor!

[Anonymous @]

@Shazzbot – I’ve actually come up with some more bonkersness (bonkritude? bonkerosity?) to add to/modify the theory:

1. River Song is also a creation of the Tardis. In order to ferret out where the “impostor Doctor” (henceforth to be known as the Mocktor) trapped the real Doctor, she instilled part of her conciousness into Amy & Rory’s child when it was conceived.  That’s the real reason the infant Melody Pond appeared to have a mix of Time Lord and human DNA in the scans found by Dorium & Vastra at Demon’s Run. It’s also how River & Clara were able to maintain a “psychic link” (they’re both aspects of the Tardis) and why River didn’t disappear when Clara jumped into the timestream. River’s out-of-order meetings with the Mocktor & their marriage are part of the Tardis’s plan to find the Doctor, too – they allow River to glean information (especially through “pillow talk”) without the Mocktor ever becoming aware he’s being spied on. She didn’t really die in the Library, she had simply found the final clues she needed to locate the Doctor (the real reason she went to the Library), so she no was no longer necessary. She also served as a prototype for Clara – now that she’s perfected the process, she can manifest Rivers & Claras at need.
2. Because Clara is a human avatar of the Tardis, the Tardis itself is Clara Prime. She feeds information on a need-to-know basis to the Claras through the timestream. That’s why 21st century Clara didn’t recognize the Doctor.
3. The Doctor wasn’t actually imprisoned in the timestream, but the Tardis figured out that she could break him out of his prison by having one of the Claras (one we haven’t seen) draw him into it.
4. Before the Doctor & Mocktor leave Trenzalore, the Doctor asks the Mocktor “Who are you, really?” This turns out to be the question. The Mocktor fulfills the Silence’s fears and his own destiny by giving the answer: I am the Valeyard! By choosing this name he does indeed become the Valeyard – although he doesn’t turn into Michael Jayston – thus making the Master’s claim that the Valeyard came about “between” regenerations correct.

[Nick @nick]

@MadScientist72

I wish I had half of your imagination

Cheers

Nick

[GothamCelt @gothamcelt]

I would have thought that David Bradley putting in an appearance as the Hartnell Doctor was a good bet. We’ve seem the photos and we know the BBC have filmed An Adventure in Space and Time. They’ve got the Doctor, the set, and daleks. The 50th anniversary without  the original Doctor seems a little, well, pointless. Just a thought

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@jimthefish Are you telling me all of those scenes were never actually filmed but put together by some genius?!

[TheGeneral @thegeneral]

Hello everyone!! Im new to this forum thing (in general) but i realy loved everyone’s theories.
I would like to excuse myself if i make any grammatical or spelling errors English is my second language so sorry in advance =P
I would like to share with you a bonkers theory of my own about the Hurt Doctor.
Im not that familiar with the old Doctor who series, my first Doctor was Eccleston.

Ok so here is my theory about The Hurt Doctor

When eleven and Clara ware in the “track of tears” eleven said that this was not The Doctor it was him but he was not the Doctor (not sure about the actual quote but its pretty much the same) as we know eleven is the 12-th regeneration, because Tennant regenerated in to his separate arm and created the metta crycis doctor who was half human and comited genocide
Than he was forced to leave him in the parallel universe with Rose because he was unstable and could have done eaven worst things.
Ok so lets just say that he somehow found a way to exit this parallel universe and he was the one eleven refered as “my secret” because when Tennant left the metta doctor he said to rose to look after him as she looked after the original when they first met so she can make him a better person. Well lets just say, what if Rose failed and he managed to escape and storm the world. What would the Doctor do? Trap him in his own timestream so he cant do anything to harm others.

So thats pretymuch my theory its a bit dry and unfinished but i realy wanted to share my thoughts here .

And again sorry for the spelling/grammatical errors =]

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Suitably bonkers…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

This particular bonkers thought seems to belong in the 50th Speculation rather than anywhere else: Clara’s fainting. Not on seeing the Hurt Doctor, but on being told that the Hurt Doctor is the Doctor.

Riffing off other people’s ideas: suppose Clara regards the Hurt Doctor as the person responsible for her mother’s death? Either because he came and took Ellie away – and then the family were told of her death; or because it’s the Hurt Doctor who is genuinely responsible for it.

That would certainly make you faint; you’ve just risked your very existence for the bloke who, it turns out, killed your Mum. And it would explain why Clara’s so insistent that she’s seen all the Doctor’s faces.

Another possible reason for the faint isn’t as dramatic; Clara already knows the Hurt Doctor, but only in the sense that she knows her mother knew him. I don’t think she knows him as ‘Grandfather’, for example, because she asks who he is.

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@bluesqueakpip –

Riffing off other people’s ideas: suppose Clara regards the Hurt Doctor as the person responsible for her mother’s death? Either because he came and took Ellie away – and then the family were told of her death; or because it’s the Hurt Doctor who is genuinely responsible for it.

That would certainly make you faint; you’ve just risked your very existence for the bloke who, it turns out, killed your Mum. And it would explain why Clara’s so insistent that she’s seen all the Doctor’s faces.

I like this and have been wondering along the same lines.  My main hesitation is over Clara’s reaction – more, ‘who’s that?’ than ‘why is he here?’ which doesn’t suggest recognition (or, at least immediate recognition)  However, I think it may be important that she fainted before he turned around – so any recognition or shock is based around either the view of the back of his head, or on his voice which wouldn’t necessarily make for immediate recognition.

Didn’t she say something along the lines of “But I’ve seen all of you, all eleven faces“?  Can’t remember if I’m quoting correctly, but if so, it dovetails with her fainting before she’s even seen the Hurt Doctor’s face.

Another idea for why she recognises him  – maybe she once saw the Hurt Doctor on Blackpool beach, and being a curious child, followed behind until she got lost (and maybe lost her confidence/mojo in the process?) – perhaps Ellie also noticed him and that’s how she was able to find Clara so quickly?

[theheadlessmonk @theheadlessmonk]

Doctor who 50th plot   the Doctor and clara escapes out from the doctors time line but followed by john Hurts doctor but they end up in the 10th doctor era and they discover the zygons……

 

[jamfilleddonut63 @jamfilleddonut63]

I think John Hurt’s Doctor temporarily gave up his name in order to get “the Moment” and destroyed Gallifrey and Skaro and then regenerated, somehow getting his name back.  The fact that we didn’t see the Eight’s regeneration gives Moffat a great opportunity to add something to the Time War story, which suggests that John Hurt is actually the Ninth Doctor (or not-Doctor).  There’s probably more to it than that though.  I wonder if he’s the old Valleyard.  I’m not sure because I haven’t seen the “Trial of a Time Lord” episodes yet, and I’m not fully briefed on the Valleyard yet.  Moffat clearly isn’t ignoring him seeing as he was mentioned in “The Name of the Doctor” when GI is listing out all the cruel nicknames the Doctor will get.  Please feel free to correct me if I’ve missed something.

People have also mentioned that the current Doctor said “he’s not the Doctor” which was shortly followed by the words “Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor” coming on screen.  That was either intending to be funny or a strange mistake.

 

[Whisht @whisht]

Not sure if this is the right place, but I’ve been thinking about the Time Lock…. (and now my head hurts).

I’m pretty sure that a Time Lock stops Time travel into and out of a particular space and time period. Creating a locked bubble you can’t Time Travel into or out of, for as long as the Lock stands.

I’ve pondered far longer than I should have, if that’s all it does, but I’ve discounted all my @bluesqueakpip -esque post-its with lines and A and B marks as I’m simply confusing myself and making up weird stuff to explain the timey wimey-ness…

If it’s the case that the Lock simply stops Time travel in and out, then at some point the Lock ends and whoever was within that Lock will walk (or roll) out.
And I think that the Daleks were likely to win that war so…. the Doctor must have intended/set the end of the Lock to be at the end of the Time (so that effectively the Lock is ‘forever’). Dooming his planet and people from any outside help etc. That’ll explain the sorrow.

.

Now, within that bubble will be a madness of killing and destruction until there’s a victor – probably the Daleks.

But whoever is within the Time Lock can still fly out physically, beyond the edge of the Lock/ bubble, in ships.

Its the slow way, but they’ve got Time on their side…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@whisht – if time within the Lock still rolls on in its normal way, that would indeed be the case – the Time Lock is set until the end of the universe (and there’s probably some kind of associated physical lock that means people can’t escape from the planet).

On the other hand, if the Time Lock is something like ‘Groundhog Day’ – a lock where Gallifrey is eternally stuck repeating one day (its final day) – then you can’t get out of it. You can’t get beyond it. At the end of the day, however far you’ve travelled, you’re returned to Gallifrey to begin the same day again.

Hopefully, given that Steven Moffat is considerably fonder of time paradoxes than Russell T Davies was, we’re going to find out more at the 50th.

[TheGeneral @thegeneral]

@whisht
well i think think the time lock may be a bubble that keeps repeating itself  not leting anyone out or in.
so basicly they live the same lives over and over again like when river didnt kill the doctor and started everything at once or nothing at once whatever pleases your point of vew.

[Whisht @whisht]

Ah, thanks @bluesqueakpip and @thegeneral – bit of consensus there on groundhog day…

Hmmm… I reckon you may be right.
Funnily enough when I was drawing Time out on post its I assumed that everything in the lock would have to “catch up” with wherever the rest of the universe was (causing weird backwards timey wimey ripples into the Schroedinger like bubble) but it made no sense, so I gave up.

Yours is much simpler so I like!

And also cos now I have a smirk thinking of Bill Murray!

Cheers!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@thegeneral

The idea (that the Time Lock is like The Wedding of River Song) is excellent, but as a teacher would say, it’s badly let down by the presentation.

This site uses colloquial English, but if you check out other posts you’ll find that posters generally keep to formal English grammar and punctuation. Just think of it as a chance to practice those skills. 😉

Anyway – yes, the Time Lock could be an ‘everything happening at the same moment’ mechanism. Time’s stopped; there’s a ‘this happens first’ and ‘this happens second’, but no ‘yesterday’ or ‘tomorrow’.

 

[TheGeneral @thegeneral]

@bluesqueakpip

I will try my best to enhance my writing skills.

About the Timelock, it just made more sense that way =]
I realy appreciate that you thought it was “exellent” , i have read some of your posts here and they are absolutely briliant !

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@thegeneral – it’s a very good idea; that the Time Lock is precisely that – time has been ‘locked’ in a single moment. It’s the perfect way to imprison the Time Lords, because they’re immediately deprived of their greatest power; the ability to control time.

Now I come to think of it, in The Wedding of River Song (which we should be watching next month) the Doctor is largely helpless. He starts the story in prison and is reacting to other people’s plans throughout.

When there is no time, the Lord of Time has lost his power.

Another interesting point which matches up with your idea: the Doctor continually sees himself as the person who killed the Time Lords. “Fear me, I killed them all.” In Wedding, time is frozen at the exact moment the Doctor (supposedly) died. And he can only unlock it by ‘dying’.

Is that what he’s done? Locked the Time Lords at the moment of Gallifrey’s destruction? So they can only ‘escape’ by killing themselves?

[Anonymous @]

@whisht, @bluesqueakpip, @thegeneral

I’m pretty sure that a Time Lock stops Time travel into and out of a particular space and time period. Creating a locked bubble you can’t Time Travel into or out of, for as long as the Lock stands.

“Period” might be a bit strong. Perhaps “ellipses” (…) might be more appropriate – as in “… unless you’re willing to go stark raving mad, like Dalek Caan.”

On the other hand, if the Time Lock is something like ‘Groundhog Day’ – a lock where Gallifrey is eternally stuck repeating one day (its final day) 

I’m inclined to agree with this position. But, based on things said in the Time Lord High Council (tEoT), it would appear that everyone stuck in the time-lock is Bill Murray. They’re all aware that they’re repeating the same day over & over again.

Now I come to think of it, in The Wedding of River Song (which we should be watching next month) the Doctor is largely helpless. He starts the story in prison and is reacting to other people’s plans throughout.

If I’m not mistaken, it was more looney-bin than prison (he was definitely in a straitjacket). Not surprising, since he seemed to be the only Bill Murray in tWoRS. The world has gone mad & he’s the only one who can see it, but he can’t do anything about it- that’d be enough to drive him batty. (River can see it to, but she deliberately caused it, so she’s not affected like he is.)

[TheGeneral @thegeneral]

@bluesqueakpip

Yes this is an awesome longvew of what i was unable to write, they are called Time Lords for a reason
its their very existance to control and play with time if they can not do that they are like humans.

In the Doctor’s weding (if i recall well enough) he was imprisoned becouse he was the only one who can stop (or start) this situation and they didnt want him to die, but like always the doctor outsmarted his own death. He send a leather to himself giving himself time to think how to outsmart this situation witch is absolutely briliant.

So maybe thats why he imprisoned the Timelords so he can think of a way to save them, but while this is happening they are dead for him becouse thats the time stream he is in now, if he finds a way to save them
it will be a difrent universe (or time stream or whatever timy wimy thing it is)
so thats one side of the picture.

Eather he killed all of them or he “froze”them so he can later revive them

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Am I the only one thinking that a trailer would be very nice about now? Well, anyway, until it comes along, on the assumption that the special might tie up loose-ends from the Matt Smith years, what might the loose-ends be? I have my own idiosyncratic list:

The Eleventh Hour: I would like an explanation of the stairwell in Amy’s house.

The Pandorica Opens (or was it The Big Bang)?: who was the hooded figure clearly lurking behind the Pandorica in the British Museum?

The Almost People: Whatever happened to the Ganger Doctor?

Day of the Moon: Not a loose-end as such, more of a question (no, more of a plea)…how about a return appearance of Canton?

Somehow, I do not think I will find out the answers to any of them, but one can always hope.

 

[Islek @islek]

After reading through these posts I have formed my own bonkers theory (based off of many of your theories)!

I think John Hurt’s doctor has to be an incarnation after Eleven. We are told that in the doctor’s time stream into which Clara jumps they will be all of the doctor’s past and future days (and incarnations, presumably). She says she’s seen his eleven faces, the same ones we have seen, which makes me believe that, in some way, Matt Smith’s Dr will die there at Trenzalore, because she hasn’t seen any incarnations passed him and they should be there if they exist. I at least believe this will factor in to the 50th somehow, maybe as a misdirect, and then Moffat will reverse or bypass it (no theories on how, though) so that the doctor regenerates and the show carries on. (I think it would be cool if he surprised us with a regeneration in the 50th instead of the Christmas special.)

Back to the Hurt Dr: I think the reason he’s corporeal and not a memory in the time stream is because he isn’t part of the time stream– I think he the future incarnation of the Doctor that the Doctor fears becoming but knows he will become. But I think that there is a choice: Smith’s Dr can become this man (the valeyard?) or he can die at trenzalor, and the reason the Hurt Dr is sort of just hanging out hiding in the doctor’s time stream and not getting on with things is that Matt Smith’s doctor hasn’t made the choice yet, so the Hurt Dr exists but is sort of hindered by the fact that he is only a possible future? The doctor can die at eleven and his grave will be the time stream they see, or he can live on and become the Hurt Dr, who is beyond the scope of the time stream they entered and that is why he’s not a memory in it that Clara can see. He’s just sort of lurking around it waiting to see if he’s going to happen. (I dunno, that may have gotten away from me a bit).

And I agree that the 50th is going to deal with the Time War, possibly (hopefully?) to lay it to rest, because, as much as I enjoy it, they can’t play up the lonely god thing forever. (I am an AG fan though, so it does hold more weight for me than the BG mysteries.) I agree with whomever (sorry!) said that the Doctor’s guilt is from in some way starting the time war, or some other act during it, and not ending it (because we all do know about that, and have spent time imagining it. I feel like Moffat will want to keep us on our toes).  I believe that Doctors Eight/Nine fought in the Time War but that it is the Hurt Dr who did the horrible thing that traumatizes Doctor Nine. Doctor Nine knows that he is (will be) the one who commits a terrible act because he’s seen himself do it, and he gets PTSD from the future instead of the past, which, to me, seems like it could be an interesting side effect of time travel. The Doctor isn’t really supposed to know about his future selves and actions, but it would be hard for him to avoid that information entirely: the rest of the universe doesn’t encounter him in the order of his own timeline, so when the silence or whomever talks about the things he’s done it could easily be future things he’s done. I mean, even with the precautions he and River take, she knows about future him and lets a lot slip. To me it makes sense that he has found out that his future self did/has done something terrible in the Time War and the guilt has trickled back from that (although it puts a weird spin on Ten’s brushes with megalomania). I do think that Smith’s doctor might try to refuse to regenerate, because of this.

Also, a wish and not a theory, but I think I’m in the minority: I want David Tennant to be playing his meta-crisis human Doctor. I can’t imagine why Rose would be included if they are just teaming up with past incarnations within the Doctor’s time stream (why Rose as opposed to Martha, Donna, or Wilfred), and I want to see how Rose and MCDT are getting on. It seems too limiting for them to put a past doctor together with the current one because then we’ll have to fit whatever happens to the past doctor into our idea of that doctor’s run, or he’ll have to forget or something (too much like a reset button). There are more possibilities with Rose and MCDT because they have an open future, and the emotional stakes are higher because they’re both human and can both easily die.

 

Hey, that was fun! Also exhausting.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Am I the only one thinking that a trailer would be very nice about now?

Completely agree… especially since we know there’s one out there (from the recent US Comic Con, which fired up a fair degree of ARSE on these shores).

@islek Interesting thoughts you have there. I’m not convinced the HurtDr IS corporeal in the timestream though. I thought he was hidden (behind some sort of mind block (see cyber leader’s comments in NiS)) but was now uncovered because the timestream is breaking down (natural decay enhanced by all the various people jumping into it). But the-doctor-who-never-was,  ie the one Matt regenerates into, IF he regenerates at a particular time/circumstances – hmmm, food for thought (flips back to various conversations re the grammatical tenses used in his exchange with Matt. I’m not even sure that he and Matt actually interact, it’s not quite a conversation. Matt responds to what he says, but it could be like you respond to eg TV or a film).

Also re Rose and MCD for the 50th – you’re right about the emotional thing, and it could clear out some “baggage” (with apologies to R and MCD!).  See previous discussions about the paradoxes of Ten being involved in Eleven’s story.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@islek and @scaryb – yes, I remember the grammatical tenses arguments. Broadly, the argument is based on the idea that the Smith Doctor consistently refers to the Hurt Doctor in the past tense. And we know we have a gap in the chain of regenerations – the audience never saw the McGann Doctor regenerate into the Eccleston Doctor.

It provides dramatic tension either way. If the Smith Doctor is the Eleventh, and the Hurt Doctor is his future – well, Moffat’s just spent a lot of time pointing out that once the Doctor knows his future, he can’t change it. If the Hurt Doctor is his future, he’s the Thirteenth Doctor.

Got to be. We’ve got the Eleventh, we know the Twelfth. That would carry the Fiftieth storyline on into the Twelfth’s reign; he’s trying to avoid becoming the Thirteenth.

If the Hurt Doctor is the original Ninth then the Smith Doctor is really the twelfth in the line from the Hartnell Doctor’s First Doctor. This regeneration will be his twelfth regeneration – and it’s sometime between the twelfth and thirteenth regenerations that the Valeyard appears.

I’d prefer to see Rose and Metacrisis Doctor as well – but I suspect the Doctor is now stuck in his own time stream. He ‘falls’ at Trenzalore because he enters his own timestream and can never leave. He’s done the time-travel equivalent of joining the ends together to make a Moebius strip – he can go back and forth between Gallifrey and Trenzalore, but he can’t go anywhere else.

Which would be why we’d meet the Tennant Doctor and Rose. It’s not Clara’s time stream; she can leave. If he takes her back to one of his adventures with Rose, it’s close enough to her time that she can take the slow path back to 2013 and the Maitlands.

Presumably that particular unseen adventure was with Zygons. 🙂

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

The Eleventh Hour: I would like an explanation of the stairwell in Amy’s house.

There is no mystery – it’s a slight optical illusion, but the stairs go up to the loft (someone back in the Grauniad days posted a pic that made this very clear – there’sa door on the right at the top of the stairs.)

The Pandorica Opens (or was it The Big Bang)?: who was the hooded figure clearly lurking behind the Pandorica in the British Museum?

Do you mean the shadow of the sarcophagus?

The Almost People: Whatever happened to the Ganger Doctor?

Glooped. Big time. This was shown.

Day of the Moon: Not a loose-end as such, more of a question (no, more of a plea)…how about a return appearance of Canton?

Oh yes.

 

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

@pedant & @blenkinsopthebrave

The Pandorica Opens (or was it The Big Bang)?: who was the hooded figure clearly lurking behind the Pandorica in the British Museum?

Eh?  I missed that one, that would have been conspiracy theory catnip for me.  I’ve only had time to watch BG series catch up rather than the AG retrospective but now I’m intrigued.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@pedant

The stairwell in Amelia’s house:

No, if you look at the scene where the Doctor and Amy are standing outside her bedroom just prior to the Doctor running outside and leaving for “five minutes”, it is clear that the stairs lead to another floor. And it is also clear that the outside of the house shows the roof to be far too low to accommodate either another floor or even a loft.

Glooped big time: well, I must have missed that. I will seek verification from Mrs Blenkinsop.

@chickenelly

The figure standing behind the Pandorica in the British Museum:

It can be seen (in the Big Bang) when Amy emerges from the Pandorica and speaks to Amelia. It is indeed directly behind the sarcophagus, but it is not a shadow–the shadow is on the wall behind the figure. Now, I know that @pedant might say that it is a merely a support of some sort holding up the sarcophagus, but I see a figure robed in black.

And, moreover, given a choice between a shadow (or a loft in Amelia’s house) and “theories more insane than what’s actually happening” I will always opt for the latter!

 

 

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

@Blenkisopthebrave

In the interests of research, I dug out my boxed set to look for said ‘hooded figure’ and I found it.  I see what you mean – curses if only I’d spotted it two years ago, the Grauniad conspiracy blog would have lasted longer!

However whilst it is clearly not a shadow, is it just the stand for holding up the mummy case?  Confusingly it seems to move as the mummy case looks like it is tilted in the first few frames then standing up in the latter ones.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@chickenelly @blenkinsopthebrave

The “figure” is, to me, quite clearly an artefact of set lighting (it may conceivably be the inside of the sarcophagus, with the front swung open, but I don’t think so). EDIT: definitely the inside of the box. Ta @wolfweed

And the stairs outside Amy’s room definitely go to a loft entrance:

http://tenlittlebullets.tumblr.com/post/41731805359/amy-ponds-house-mystery

The top one you can make out the loft space (this one is bigger: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17xh8fvr851gqjpg/ku-bigpic.jpg)

Third one clearly shows alight source at the top that is hidden when the camera is at a lower angle (fourth one) – and the exterior shots equally clearly show plenty of loft space. It wouldn’t especially surprise me if there is a dormer window on the far side.

Ganger Doc was shown being blown up when Monster!Jenny went caboom.

 

 

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@pedant and @blenkinsopthebrave

I think the strange thing about the staircase isn’t that it leads to a loft. It’s that it’s a terribly solid staircase. For a loft???

I’d guess myself that the staircase originally led to the servants’ attic rooms – as you say, there’s probably windows on the side of the house that’s away from the camera. But they do seem to have emphasised the oddity of this flight of stairs that appears to lead straight into a ceiling. Both little Amelia and older Amy are framed against the staircase, rather than against the extra door. River later shines her torch straight up it.

As for the figure behind the Pandorica – that one’s filed in my mind under ‘wait and see’, bit like Rory’s ID card with the odd date and Matt Smith in his raggedy Doctor costume dashing through the house in Eleventh Hour. Might be a production error (though they deliberately focussed on that ID badge). Might be something they planned and couldn’t use.

Or they might be shots ‘for later’. I don’t mean they’ll zip back to it, just that we’ll suddenly realise why Rory has the wrong date on his ID badge, or why there seem to be two raggedy Doctors.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

IT’S THE SARCOPHAGUS!

(And yes, quite possibly attic rooms rather than a loft although I would expect dormers on more sides if that were the case)

[Whisht @whisht]

Just thinking @bluesqueakpip and @thegeneral that the anniversary episode is called “The (Groundhog) Day of The Doctor”.

It really works as a way for time locks to work and for the story to be constructed.

We’d better be careful any bonkers theorising doesn’t become spoilery!

😉

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@whisht – The title also reminds me of ‘The Day of The Jackal’.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

The official picture for The Day of The Doctor

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Somewhat wary about posting this here (as opposed to the Spoilers page), but since the official picture for The Day of the Doctor has been posted here…

Bad Wolf…well I wasn’t expecting that. But it might help explain why Rose (of all the companions) is returning. I am intrigued to see what Moffat (who tends to avoid referencing memes of writers other than himself) makes of Bad Wolf.

The title…”The Day of the Doctor”…reminds me of the Pertwee story “The Day of the Daleks”. It was this story that first introduced the Blinovitch Limitation Effect. Is there a connection? Well, both Bad Wolf and the Blinovitch Limitation Effect go to the heart of the paradoxes of time travel which are at the heart of the show, and so it is only reasonable to assume that Moffat (the master of timey-wimey) would reference both.

On the other hand, Moffat tends to play fast and loose with the Blinovitch Limitation Effect (eg. old and young Kazran embracing in “A Christmas Carol”).

But perhaps there is another reason why he would reference both. There has been much discussion by cast members like Jenna Coleman that the 50th will change everything and send the show off in a new direction. Could it be that the 50th will be explicitly about the Blinovitch Limitation Effect and the paradoxes of time travel (such as Bad Wolf)? By which I mean, will Moffat not simply re-boot the universe (after all, he has already done that in “The Big Bang”) but re-boot the show by finally explaining (or, more to the point, explaining away) the Blinovitch Limitation Effect?

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@blenkinsopthebrave – the rule for spoilers: anything officially released by the BBC isn’t a spoiler. The production team has been known to differ on that, but I doubt that the above picture reveals anything they don’t want revealed.

I don’t think Moffat has played ‘fast and loose’ with the Blinovitch limitation effect; I think he’s dumped it – but hasn’t directly mentioned that he’s done so.

The sonic screwdriver shows carefully highlighted signs of the Effect in The Big Bang. Yet in the very next episode, written by the same writer, Old Kazran and Young Kazran embrace. It’s as if the Effect somehow isn’t there in this new, rebooted universe.

I was interested to see ‘Bad Wolf’ as well. Bad Wolf itself, or ‘Bad Wolf’ as a message that is /going to be/has therefore already been sent through time? We’ve seen lots of examples of ‘Rose’ being connected with Clara (for one thing, she was barmaid at the Rose and Crown). Clara herself is such a message. She stepped into the timestream because she always had; she was born to do that.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@bluesqueakpip

You may be right about Moffat simply quietly dumping the Blinovitch Limitation Effect. On the other hand, does not the Effect come into play in explaining why he can never go back to see Amy and Rory in 1930s New York? Is it the reason he should never have gone to Trenzilor? I am simply not sure.

 

 

[Author]

Posts