The Doctor Falls

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This topic contains 272 replies, has 46 voices, and was last updated by  ichabod 1 year, 11 months ago.

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  • #61774
    McCotton @mccottonthedoctorfan

    One of the things I want to talk about is the ending.  After watching “The Doctor Falls,” I watched it on a lot of reaction channels.  The scene right before the First Doctor shows up.

    “I will NOT CHANGE!”

    Am I just interpreting this scene wrong?  Everyone is saying “he’s trying not to regenerate.  He’s trying to stay as he is.”  But I don’t think that’s the case.  Before he leaves the TARDIS, he talks about how tired he is.  How he doesn’t want to do the cycle anymore: be lost, find out who he is, regenerate, start over.

    To me, in that scene, the Doctor is trying to not regenerate, yes.  But he’s not trying to stay the Twelfth Doctor.  He’s trying to die.

    #61775
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @mccottonthedoctorfan

    I agree. And I think the Christmas episode will be like “It’s a Wonderful Life”, as he comes to realise why he has to live (albeit in a different body).

    #61778
    Hiker @hiker

    @mccottonthedoctorfan

    Your name is too long. 🙂

    Otherwise, I took it as ‘I won’t change again, I want to stay as I am or die.’

    I think he’s burnt out with the effort it takes to get rolling again in a new form. I think also, Bill being turned into a Cyberman, and Missy dissappointing him was all a bit much to an already fatally injured Doctor.

    I have high hopes for the Christmas special. I’ll miss Capaldi. I hope he hits it out of the park!

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #61792
    ichabod @ichabod

    @hiker  . . . I took it as ‘I won’t change again, I want to stay as I am or die.’

    An echo of CyberBill, “I don’t want to live if I can’t be me.”

    #61794
    Missy @missy

    @mccottonthedoctorf:

    You could be right. Perhaps he thought that enough was enough.

    @hiker: I have high hopes for the Christmas special. I’ll miss Capaldi. I hope he hits it out of the park!

    If anyone can, he can.

    Missy

    #61817
    MissRori @missrori

    @missy  I’m going with the “enough is enough” take on Twelve’s angst at the moment.  He never had a happy season finale — he always ended up alone — and on top of that, as far as he knows he lost both female companions (plus River), couldn’t redeem Missy, and only did so much for the solar farmers.  And since he never had a lot of close friends otherwise, he had a very lonesome life in many ways.

    I’m hoping that the Christmas special finds a way to give him a miracle so he can truly live happily ever after.  A friend of mine had hoped that “The Doctor Falls” would turn out to be a joyful Everybody Lives story, to contrast with his previous two finales cheating him out of the happiness he earned.  Well, this wasn’t it, but maybe the Christmas special can be?

    #61818
    MissRori @missrori

    Looking at the above, I think I was being a bit too gloomy about Twelve’s character arc.  Still, I never got the sense that offscreen he had a lot of friends he frequently touched base with, especially in Series 10.  I know that “Happy people make for boring television”, but if there are two things I would have liked to see (more) of in Twelve’s tenure, they were 1) new alien worlds explored at length and 2) fun adventures where the stakes and body counts weren’t high and the endings sunshiny.  It frustrated me that (especially in Series 8 and 9) we were teased with wonderful exotic places and fun adventures that the Doctor and his companions were having but never got to see them.  They would have been a nice break from all the drama.  😉

    Edit: Come to think of it, one thing I liked about “The Lie of the Land” was its positivity once the first third had been worked through.  But apparently, looking at other sites, it’s ranked down at/near the bottom of Series 10.  Wonder why that is?  Are people just too angsty these days?  😉

    #61825
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missrori   I think “The Lie of the Land” comes off as a bit rough, even half-baked, which in fact the script was — that’s the one Moffat apologized for in an interview because he was still working on it when his mother got sick and died.  He lamented the fact that he never got to do a final revision or go over the draft that he turned in with Capald before shooting.  Moffat apologized for that, too (saying he’d felt bad about leaving the cast in the lurch, a bit, on that one).

    I think viewers picked up on that lack of polished resolution, which is why the episode ranks so low.  Expectations had been raised by “Extremis”, and they weren’t met, for good reasons — which get forgotten anyway, and how much do the reasons for the shortfall matter, after all?  Not much, when you’ve ranking the observable result, not the process that produced it.

    #61829
    MissRori @missrori

    @ichabod Yeah, the Monks trilogy seemed ill-fated by the fates.  Moffat only had the onscreen writing credits on “Extremis” (solo) and “Pyramid at the End of the World” (with Harness), the latter being the one he was working on at his mum’s hospital bedside. (sniffle)  “Pyramid”, of course, wound up muddling its point by having so many characters making foolish decisions, which undercut its attempt to chide the Doctor for hubris (because he was the scary handsome genius he said he was despite his mistakes when compared to everyone else).  That could easily have been addressed with more revisions.  Moffat doesn’t have a credit on “Lie of the Land” but had he the time, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see him work enough on Whitehouse’s script to refine it and get a co-writing credit, if only because it involved Missy.  The finished “Lie” ran a few minutes shorter than standard episode length, time that could have been used to better resolve stuff like the Doctor’s “test”.

    Getting back to this episode though…much as I enjoyed it, there are a few points I don’t think have been fully explained elsewhere, so I’ll ask them here.

    • If the Doctor is going to be kind, why not negotiate peace between the Cybermen and uncoverted Mondasians instead of blowing the former to high heaven, or at least find a nonviolent means of conflict resolution?  The Cybermen did just want to live.
    • Why is the Doctor so pessimistic about saving Bill from Cyber-fate two weeks on? That’s two weeks for him to think over possible solutions to the problem after he makes his initial promise.  And the Whoniverse has a lot of potential options available, once they get back to the TARDIS.  The nanotech from “The Empty Child”/”The Doctor Dances” for instance, which would have been a great bookend for Moffat’s era as a Who-writer.
    • Also, there’s the option of using all that regeneration energy he’s trying to hold back…two birds, one stone!  Seems silly not to explain why.  If he’d use it on Davros…

    Anyhoo, I do want the Xmas show to be cheerful, but how can Twelve’s final end be cheerful if he has to give up his beautiful self?  Seems the only way that can happen is if he gets a BIG reward beforehand, something to enjoy in the here and now.

    (Some of this broodiness on my part comes from the rough times I’ve witnessed in the U.S. since this finale aired.  Kindness to those in need is not in vogue right now because there’s no real gain in it — it just seems to ask for more trouble — and fighting injustice just gets people tarred as no better than the unjust…)

    #61853
    Missy @missy

    @hiker: Knowing Steven Moffat, it will be a doozy!

    @ichabod: That’s how I read it too.

    @missrori; What would be wnderful is if someone tells him about Missy’s change of heart.

    Missy

    #62033
    Missy @missy

     

    I watched the final episode of the Doctor Who – The Doctor Falls – again last night (it’s on our recorder still). I really shouldn’t because I become quite upset.. Why oh why did Mr C have to give in his notice!

    Just a thought, but what if  instead of  the twelth Doctor regenerating, the first Doctor does, and becomes her. Meanwhile, PC buzzes off in the first Doctor’s Tardis unchanged?

    Bonkers enough for you?

    It’s the sort of thing Steven Moffat would do, and he did say that this special would be different.

    Missy

     

    #62056
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  Oh, I’d go for it!  New universes to be conquered by . . .

     

    #62060
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod:

    Well, Peter Doc did say he would not change, and who is the one wearing the cloak?

    What a lovely thought. *sigh*

    Missy

    #62108
    MissRori @missrori

    @missy Who would tell the Doctor about Missy’s change of heart?  Remember, it was without witness!  😉

    Also, regarding the Doctor not wanting to change…it does seem rather unfair that Twelve must become Thirteen when he doesn’t want to when Bill got to be restored to a human shape, if not yet form.  If she had stayed a Cyberman yet made it work it would have been more thematically appropriate for what’s about to happen to Twelve.  Maybe she’ll decide she wants to be a Cyberman again in the Christmas show, accepting the change that was forced upon her the way it is being forced upon Twelve?

    But then this double standard has turned up before with Twelve; the Doctor wasn’t allowed to enjoy the wiggle room with Clara but was forced to move on and accept her death, but Clara chose to enjoy what the Doctor’s suffering granted her instead of doing the honorable thing and going back to her death.  If someone else suffered so for me, I would either enjoy the new time with him or we would both have to suffer.  But then she was always selfish that way… 😉

    #62125
    Missy @missy

    @missrori:

    Hmm. I don’t think Clara was selfish in the true sense, she simply wanted to have her cake and eat.  Doesn’t everyone?

    She was able to. Danny was the annoying one.

    “Do you love him?” (Caretaker) He asks Clara.

    “No, not in that way.”

    “There isn’t any other way.”

    What a twerp, hadn’t he heard of parental love? I thought he was slefish.

    Plus, the Doctor would, I feel,  be glad for her. He knows the fascination and adiction of travelling through time and space- especially time.

    As you say, pity no one can let him know about Missy.

    My bonkers theory was based on the continual “I will not change!” The appearance of the first Doctor and the devious whims of Steven Moffat.

    Add to them, the fact that every Doctor regeneration, shows him wearing the same clothes as the previous Doctor.

    JD is not, she is wearing a cloak. PC isn’t wearing a cloak, but first Doctor is.

    However, time will  tell and I’m probably completely wrong.

    Missy

    #62642
    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    Alright, I was finally able to finish the tenth season. I’ve been sick the past few days so I just watched the whole season in one day. It was incredible. I think I can explain my reaction to this episode in one sentence.

    I was crying throughout the episode.

    I can’t believe I cried, this was such a perfect episode. World Enough and Time was a great set up for everything that happen in this episode but this is the real gem of the season. I love every scene and what happens to all the characters. I feel that this season showed the best moments between The Doctor and Missy and we can really see why they were friends before. Missy’s death was sad, well written and performed fantastically. Bill’s story was also wonderful to watch play out. I’m glad she and Nardole got a happy ending. I’m also happy that there was a mention of jelly-babies before Peter left, I was hoping for that. But my favorite scenes are always with The Doctor, and I can’t give Peter enough credit for his acting. I love (this whole post is just me saying I love everything) his “just be kind” speech, the mention of “without hope, without witness, without reward” line from earlier was well placed and the battle between The Doctor and the Cybermen was sad to watch. It was wonderfully written and performed, I can’t praise it enough.

    However, I think this episode proves that out of all the Doctors, the 12th doctor is the most broken. I think he has been thrown into the worst situations The Doctor has ever face and to him he never wins. In this episode alone, his childhood friend walks away from him and he never gets to know that she was siding with him. His companion is turned into a metal creature and he was powerless to help her. I know some people think that he doesn’t want to regenerate because he wants to die and maybe this proves that, I don’t know. I think he knows that after 2,000 years, everything that has happen to him has shaped him into a hero everyone needs, and he doesn’t want to forget that person and start anew again. That’s just how I see it and maybe I only see it that way because he’s my favorite doctor and I don’t want him to go but I think that The Doctor can’t become more broken beyond this point and his new face and personality are going to be relief to him. Maybe he even chose this up coming face just like he did with his current one, to be a reminder, to influence him.

    I haven’t even mention the setting of this episode, I love the idea of a farm inside a spaceship and the affect gravity has on time was such an interesting factor. The blue tones used near the ending in the episode were beautiful and were perfect for the tone of the episode. For some reason the forest reminds me of the setting used for the trailer that revealed the 13th doctor. All the settings in this episode and World Enough and Time looked incredible and were fascinating to see.

    Well, I can’t wait for doctor number 13 but it’s going to be sad saying goodbye to number 12. I’m going to miss Peter as The Doctor but I think this new actor will be just fine (I’m not mentioning the actors name just so this can’t be labeled as a spoiler).

    #62654
    Missy @missy

    @gamergirlavatar:

    Good post.

    Missy

    #62656
    janetteB @janetteb

    @gamergirlavatar What she said… I think you have expressed just what I feel about this episode and P.C. I recently re watched the series and have just watched the Christmas Specials. In the last one when he realised that it has been 24 years since he gave Grant the crystal the repressed grief was palpable. Peter’s face conveys such emotional depth, so much there, so much accumulated pain over so many lifetimes. The weight of that baggage shows but it is also a danger in narrative terms. It is time I think for the Doctor, as character, to shed some of that before the character/narrative is overwhelmed by it.
    Cheers
    Janette

    #62664
    ichabod @ichabod

    @gamergirlavatar  @missy  @janetteb   Yes; Moffat and Capaldi used S9 and S10 in particular to push the Doctor as far into the dark as they could — without turning the show into something that younger viewers would no longer be comfortable with or understand.  Not that kids don’t experience loss, pain, heroism, and despair, on the scale of their own comprehension; but this went to extremes that I think really pushed the boundaries of the show’s remit, and for that matter the expectations of its audiences.

    A re-set does seem to be in order, and I do wonder how that will be handled — how *complete* that re-set will be.

    #62666
    Missy @missy

    @janetteb:

    Seconded.

    @ichabod;

    Truthfully, I am full of dread. But that doesn’t mean I’m right.

    Missy

     

    #62671
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  I’m just — sad, I guess.  The show is resilient; whatever happens in S11, I trust it will endure, bounce back if needs be, and go on to thrive, with Whittaker/Chibnal or others.

    The question for me is whether *I* will bounce back from losing the writers and actors who have made me an enthusiastic DW fan again: will it remain “appointment” television, or will I descend to “casual” viewing.  These last three series spoke to me and friends around my age with particular power.  To be fair, though, as an older viewer I’m hardly part of the show’s “target demographic”.  When my cohort dies off, DW will need lots of youngsters and their parents already well hooked, in order to keep the show afloat.

    Whittaker looks good for that; Chibnal and a couple of writers he’s comfortable working with — not so much.  But I’m not the one who needs to be pleased.  And I suppose it’s unbecoming to be greedy for more when you’ve already been served such fine fare.

     

    #62676
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod:

    My sentiments almost exactly.

    Fantasy. Simply a children’s programme, which has captured millions of hearts and imaginations.

    For all I’m old enough to know better, never has a work of fantasy captured mine so completely, especially the past

    three series with the perfect Doctor, writer’s, companions and music.

    If it’s possible to mourn for something which is unreal, then I’m mourning.

    I’ve been spoilt rotten and they’ve taken away my favourite toy! *sniff*

    Ridiculous innit?

    Missy

     

     

     

     

    #62926
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  Yep; purely ridiculous.  Yet here we are . . .

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