The Lie of the Land

[Missy @missy]

@lisa:

Most resolutions usually are simple.

@missrori:

Perhaps he didn’t use his regenerative powers to cure his blindness, because he didn’t think it important enough to waste them?

@wolfweed: I remember In The forest of the Night, the Doctor tells Clara that humans forget, and they just become fairy stories.

Did anyone notice that the electronic cage (for want of a better word) that Missy was in, was very similar to Eurus’s prison in Sherlock?

Missy

[Missy @missy]

@thane15: PURO

Two Doctors and two Masters? Not entirely himself?

Hark, is that the soothing, sweet tones of the Twilight Zone I hear?

Missy

 

 

[tardigrade @tardigrade]

@missy

Perhaps he didn’t use his regenerative powers to cure his blindness, because he didn’t think it important enough to waste them?

He was stuck on the wrong side of the door for long enough to use them in the previous episode- at a crisis point. And the (sim-)Doctor was prepared to use an experimental machine to temporarily restore his sight instead, at significant risk, in Extremis. For some reason, it seems they just weren’t on the cards.

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

Puro

Did you read Wolfweed’s post 58481 (the link at the bottom of the comment) on page 1 of this thread ?

If you choose to make this as being something more than a coincidence, it puts the comment you quoted into a different light. Since this speculation is based on an external fact it is spoilerish, even though it is still speculation. The idea had flitted through my mind previously, but I thought it was just too unlikely. Little coincidences like this though maybe not ?

And the Doctor: “I like you Bill, you smile when you don’t understand something.”

Nardole: “what are you teaching her?”

Doctor: “everything”

Oh reaaaaally?? huh huhn. And why is that “doctor”?

[Nick @nick]

@missy @missrori @tardigrade

Perhaps he didn’t use his regenerative powers to cure his blindness, because he didn’t think it important enough to waste them?

But he did waste it on a silly test for Bill, who wasn’t even aware of regeneration (if she was, why would she have been concerned about the small explosion in Pyramid). This could just be Moff teasing rather pointlessly (he has form), but if its not, then something else happened.

 

[Mirime @mirime]

also his comment to Missy in front of Bill: “here’s the only other TL”

@thane I’ve only watched it once but didn’t he say ‘this is the other last of the Time Lords’

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@tardigrade- yes to me too. I know Moffart doesn’t control all the information that comes out before the episodes. But I can’t really see any reason for the regeneration scene other than to make us all think- if we saw it there the first time or already knew about it- that he’s going to regenerate. The jokes more on us than Bill. And so avoidable, Bill could have clearly shot him with real bullets, one of the soldiers had real bullets after all. He’s on a fresh cycle of regeneration. But the idea he did it on purpose as part of the test then joked ‘too much’ when we had no reason to think it would have meant anything to her… alternatively, we could have seen her learn about regeneration. And her logic could have been, I’ll make you regenerate, maybe the next version will be free of the Monk’s control, it’s worth a shot (so to speak). Which would have changed the contrast between ‘I’ll kill the doctor so he can’t do any more harm’ and ‘I won’t kill Bill even to save the world’. But is that a bad thing?

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

Having quite an interesting conversation on the Guardian thread, about the misstelling of the frog and scorpion story – though someone has pointed out that there are other versions of the story – and the similar but different old woman and the snake story. Is the Doctor actually the old woman, taking in a freezing snake that begs her to save its life, only to get bitten when the snake recovers. ‘You knew when you took me in I was a snake’.

I wonder if Missy is more a scorpion or a snake? The scorpion makes a promise not to sting because if it did, it would die too, but because of its nature, it stings the frog. The snake makes no such particular promise, not does it die because of it’s betrayal. The punchline in both is that the other party should have known what would happen, they knew what they were dealing with. The difference is whether the scorpion knows or has the choice…

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@missy- but he (in the simulation at least) plugged his brain into a device that would temporarily restore his sight at some great cost he knew not what- further regenerations, maybe. So his sight was pretty important at that point. (Before it occurred to him to use text to speech on the laptop). And then in what we can assume was the real world nearly got blown up because he was blind. And Bill surrendered the earth to cure his blindness. It’s hard to think, with all this, that having his eyesight back wasn’t a big enough reason to use regenerative energy, but testing Bill, when he even noticed that using it was ‘a bit much’, and by the time he did it she had already ‘passed’ his test by shooting him, was.

[Constance @constance]

@ichabod I also really liked the episode and I generally like the volatility of this Doctor. I think for me it was just a problem with the particular scene involving shooting. As <span class=”useratname”>@nick mentions earlier, the Doctor specifically told Nardole that he is teaching Bill and what he taught her here is that sometimes the best course of action is to shoot people point blank and kill them dead. As lessons go, it’s a far cry from “there’s always another way”.</span>

[MissRori @missrori]

@lisa  I wasn’t bothered by the Appalling Hair Girl line — this Doctor does tend to be casually insensitive when he’s grumpy (as he was there) in a hurry and the like, and it fits in with his preference for nicknaming others.  P.E., Sexy One, Lofty and the rest…Heck, even Clara wasn’t immune to comments about her appearance in Series 8!

@thane15 and everyone else theorizing about the Doctor’s “off” moments…some of them, like the test for Bill in this episode and its too-lighthearted aftermath, might just be dodgy writing or even trolling on the part of the showrunners.  Some of them just don’t seem that off to me, based on previous experience in Series 8 and 9.  But I’m also thinking of comments Moffat and others have made about this season’s structure and take on the Doctor.   I’m afraid this will be a bit of a ramble…

They’ve noted that this season would be more about the alien side of his nature, what makes him different from us humans, and that the first four or so episodes (“The Pilot” through “Knock Knock”) are about Bill learning about his bright side — courage, wonder,  kindness, wit, determination, intelligence, familial tenderness, righteous anger,  moral code, compassion, his being “the police” as it were.  Then the next four or so (“Oxygen” and the Monks) explore his darker aspects — pride, arrogance, recklessness, fear, dishonesty, clever scheming side, vulnerability.  She now has a rounded picture of him, and he of her for that matter.

And with that the story enters its back third, as he prepares for the end that he’s been brooding about for a while now.  Especially if it really has been almost 1,000 years for him since the day he spared Missy — and that might be what Nardole meant when he said he needed to be ready when that door opens, because what will become of the Doctor and Missy then? — he knows he’s wearing thin, that all things end.  Oh, he’ll live again, but he won’t be quite the same.

But there is a thread running through his light and dark moments and it is his virtue in extremis.  He might boast about himself in the heat of the moment but whenever all seems lost, he sees himself as the expendable one, the nobody, the one who was lost long ago and can’t be saved.  If there’s a chance a life can be saved, he will try to save it.  In his eyes, everyone is more precious than he is, even a rotter like Missy.  Sure he gets frustrated with us pudding brains, he has his favorites, but he didn’t want Bill to feel guilty that he lost his sight to save her, he begged her not to sell out humanity for him…he wanted to know that she could understand that if the worst came to worst, he was the expendable one.

<i>In darkness we are revealed.</i>

Darkness is associated with death.  He sees those things coming for him, he sees the voids and blackest pits.  He knows he needs to be ready when that door opens.  He’s endured blindness already.  He was caged by the Monks and had to live a lie for six months to help Bill save humanity.  And oh he is afraid.  He’s just a bloke in a box telling stories but he knows that if he’s wounded just right he becomes the Hybrid, hungering for succor with an appetite to swallow all space and time.  He’s scared that when his final test comes, he won’t pass it.

But I think he will…

(phew, shakes head)  Well, that’s where I’m seeing things going anyway.  But also, I feel a bit bad about all this speculation that he’s unstable and all, though he probably is suffering anxiety issues at the very least.  As an autistic woman, I know how it is to be seen as crazy and irrational in my reactions to things just because they can be bigger, or different, than “normal” people’s.  I identify pretty strongly with the Twelfth Doctor because he often reacts/acts in ways I would in similar situations, for good or ill.  The main difference is that I bite my tongue when it comes to snarking!  😉

[MissRori @missrori]

@constance  Yeah, the shooting and regeneration-that-wasn’t was just awkward conceptually.  As the DoctorWhoTV.co.uk advance review put it, the whole thing seemed designed to provide a “shock trailer moment”.

But also, sometimes all we have are bad choices, but we still have to choose, as he told Clara once…  😉

[Nick @nick]

@missrori

An interesting analysis and some valid points I feel. However, whilst this

He might boast about himself in the heat of the moment but whenever all seems lost, he sees himself as the expendable one, the nobody, the one who was lost long ago and can’t be saved.  If there’s a chance a life can be saved, he will try to save it.  In his eyes, everyone is more precious than he is, even a rotter like Missy.

might have been true, his behaviour in Thin Ice (failure to even attempt to save the very young child at the beginning of the story) and the willingness to rush to blow up the ship without even a cursory check in Smile suggests it isnt a certainty any more.

Your general analysis ties in with my own thinking behind what I called a pre-regeneration crisis (the counting down the time opening monologue appears to suggest he’s aware of the coming regeneration). However as @ichabod pointed out, given the journey in series 8/9, would Moff reuse the theme. Perhaps he would. Is the character picture Moff has decided to paint for Peter’s Doctor one on underlying instability ?

[Constance @constance]

@missrori I think all in all the “sometimes all we have are bad choices, but we still have to choose” is a good thing to do in a show, and it was well shown in the Thames frost party episode with Bill, the moon egg with Clara, and the Liz 10 and the space whale(?) ep back with Amy – can’t remember the episode names. The right choice has generally been one that preserves life. So further proof that the Doctor is going darker? Of course, if his aim really was to show that sometimes life is expendable or must be sacrificed for greater good, he still chose his own life as the one that must go. I guess finding out the timelords are still around didn’t do much to eradicate his core of self-loathing for what he did in the war.

I agree, though, that it was probably more for the trailers and not really meant for deeper analysis.

ETA: only just noticed this is basically what you just said in the previous post – sorry, I usually try to check earlier posts before sending but totally missed that one! So feel free to ignore, or take as an emphatic agreement.

[tardigrade @tardigrade]

I’ve seen some comments on this thread suggesting that it might have been nearly 1000 years since Missy went into the vault. Is there anything to support that?

I wouldn’t have though that the Doctor or Missy would last that long on one regeneration- Matt Smith’s Doctor was decidedly worse for wear after a few hundred years, and probably would have regenerated sooner if he’d been able. Possibly the Doctor’s off the hook on his promise early (on a technicality) if Missy regenerates- he promised to guard her body- that body would be gone.

Also, that wouldn’t seem to fit with the 2000 year old age he gave earlier in the series (although the Doctor’s reporting of his age is always a bit suspect).

The only reference I can recall is this (from The Pilot):
BILL: You’ve been lecturing here for a long time. Like, fifty years, some people say. Nabeela in the office says over seventy.
He might not have been in the same place the whole time of course, and it could have been longer than 70 (though surely not 1000).

On the other hand, if this regeneration is that old, then it would explain some odd behaviour 🙂

[MissRori @missrori]

@tardigrade All that’s certain is that the execution that wasn’t was “A long time ago” — at least from the Doctor’s perspective.

[Brewski @brewski]

@blenkinsopthebrave and @nerys I remember the first time I saw that Trek episode, too.  I would probably have been about 13.  However, even then I was pretty weird. And while I was also very disturbed by the cold ease with which the woman was killed, I also distinctly remember thinking: “She was turned into that hard foam stuff they put in the vases for plastic flowers.”

(P.S.)  At least it wasn’t green bubble wrap!)

[Brewski @brewski]

@thane15 was that your most bonkerist-bonkerested idea? Whoa! Tripping. I like it.

Yes, probably.  I will just keep getting worse until stopped or de-bonked.

(P.S.) Not turned into chalk.  Turned into that hard green foam stuff they put in the vases for plastic flowers.)

[Nick @nick]

@tardigrade

I think its impossible to say how old the Doctor is (eg http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor%27s_age). If you use Matt Doctors age as stated there, then he can’t have been guarding Missy for very long at all. However, are we talking combined age or for each regeneration ? The stated combined ages for each regeneration don’t really tally in any sensible way imo. Worse there has always been unexplained gaps and big increases, as he has gradually aged over the last 50 years.

I would tend to say that Missy has been in the vault for quite a long time; that’s my impression from what we have seen. The suggestion is that it is at least 50 to 70 years at the university alone (that also means that D12 and D3 both spent several years living on Earth at the same time).

 

[Brewski @brewski]

@nick “that also means that D12 and D3 both spent several years living on Earth at the same time”

Hah!  That’s a great thought! 😀  I wonder if that’s how UNIT got their decades confused.

[nerys @nerys]

I think the Doctor’s basic problem is that he is lonely for his own kind. Missy is the only one left, and so he keeps trying to save her … not just physically, but mentally/emotionally. The evidence seems to point to her being unsavable, yet I think the Doctor can’t help himself. He is compelled to keep on trying, very likely at his expense.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I wonder if Moffat has been in discussion with Chibnall about the transfer? Would it be likely that he is setting the stage in some way for the next iteration of the Doctor and the show? The reason I ask is that Moffat does like to push the envelop when it comes to settled assumptions about what we expect of a character and a show. Look at the end of Sherlock, for example. But on the other hand, he cannot change our expectations of the Doctor too much, as it would hamper Chibnall.

What is so good about Moffat is that, even at this late stage, we have little idea of what is in store for the final two parter, and the conclusion to Capaldi’s run. I don’t know exactly why, but I have a feeling that we might be left with a tragic end for this Doctor. Not just a sad end, or a wistful end, but a tragic end. He enterered the scene unsure of who he was, and he has lost a lot, including River and even his memories of Clara.

[MissRori @missrori]

@nerys I agree with you on this too.  (Sniff)

[MissRori @missrori]

@blenkinsopthebrave From what little Moffat’s said about the finale and Christmas show, the finale may well be tragic, but the Christmas show will be hopeful.  You’re right that Twelve has lost so much.  But maybe he has to lose everything for one great moment?  He has done nothing to not deserve to know a last moment of hope.  Perhaps Clara will return, or he gets his memory back, or he is welcomed back to Gallifrey or….

 

[lisa @lisa]

@nerys

Well with respect to the way that  the Doctor has always been avoiding his own kind even when he

was very young by hiding out in the Cloisters on Galifrey  just indicates to me that he’s

never missed them really all that much.  No doubt he missed a few individually.  Including Missy!

I think he’s only lonely for the companions that he has been emotionally invested in.

That’s why I think he feels a really strong emotional investment in Missy .

 

Strangely,  we find him spending all this time after losing River with who?   Missy!   Doesn’t seem

to matter much how painful she is for him.  Doesn’t matter about the game playing.   He stays

emotional unavailable to her in one sense but its tricky.  He never out right rejects her.  They have

an unusual and intimate thing going on.  Missy seems to get off on being chased and persued  by

the Doctor too. So  to me its seriously dysfunctional love.    Missy also isn’t the only Timelord left.

But apparently she’s the only one the Doctor needs.  At least that’s how I read it.  One of those

relationships that causes lots of discomfort for both of them but their irresistible to each other too.

Otherwise they would have moved on from each other a long time ago.

I’d love to know more of their back story.    Not as interested in the analysis of why they are effected

by each other  as much as how this happened.

 

[MissRori @missrori]

@lisa Yes, I think the reason he regards Missy as “the other last of the Time Lords” stems from their being the only two who exist in the wider universe anymore — since all the others, cruel and cowardly lot that they are, have chosen to hide at a point the end of time and space, where there apparently aren’t many places left to go (as “Hell Bent” suggests when Rassilon is exiled).  There haven’t been any other Time Lords or Ladies roaming about as yet.

But also, yes, he was never happy on Gallifrey from what can be seen, and having come so far since he fled, he can’t relate to them anymore (assuming, say, Romana or other old acquaintances are no more).  And what they did to him at the end of Series 9…they would have to seek his forgiveness and they won’t so much as stir from their world.  So, a stalemate.

Perhaps the Master/Missy was the first real companion he had — not in the traveling sense (that of course was Susan) but in the sense of someone he was emotionally attached to and saw as a friend.  S/he was a good person, once, before the Time Lords scrambled his/her brain.  They were friends, who cared about each other.  And now…well, he couldn’t let her die because she is a life.  And if there’s a chance to do the right thing, no matter how awful it might work out for him, the Doctor takes it…maybe s/he can’t be redeemed, but is it right for him to never try?

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

I’m more awake now! (That wouldn’t be difficult)

I haven’t read the last two pages of posts yet, so apologies if I’m going over old ground…

@nick    I’m not sure that any citizens were actually killed during those 3 months (it seemed in ‘Pyramid’ that the Monks could be ‘merciful’ and perhaps only killed to gain consent). Although what are chances of no killings when the TRUTH Police do the Monks’ donkey work with loaded guns? (Well guns can make people comply!)

If the story went that the humans remained affected, they’d probably have behaved better towards each other afterwards (for a time at least) just like they did in ‘Pyramid’ when the threat united them (see hasty World Peace).

I don’t agree with everything said in this link but it’s an interesting look at the philosophy of the ‘Trilogy’ truth in fidelity… (& it makes me appreciate it a bit more as a trilogy, even though it’s slagging it off a bit)

I stand corrected. Pure love did indeed win the day, but only because Bill doesn’t know how much of a bloody misery-guts her mum could sometimes be in reality! (Ha!) (And what an annoying voice she had! Tee-Hee!)

 

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Calling Time Lord Mods?

Sorry – I just noticed that in post 58646 the 2nd video may contain a spoiler. I just assumed that Michelle Gomez was being surreal…..?!

I hope so…

[Nick @nick]

@wolfweed

I am always amazed how erudite show Who reviewers are (Philip Sandifer is another). Whether he’s right or not, it is a very interesting analysis, which would certainly change anyone’s view of this three story arc. He is right, the third part is the weakest. I think he’s a bit harsh on Toby. Moff certainly should have had the time to edit anything that was imperfect, although I understand that there may have been impossible due to family circumstances.

You’re also right that it isnt clear than the Monks caused Deaths, although it is a reasonable inference. I also agree that this story isnt the worst offender out there in the current or past Who story universe.

 

[Nick @nick]

@wolfweed

Without the video clip, I’d agree, but the clip looks like a spoiler to me (albeit a very ambiguous one)

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

I agree with @nick ! If a ‘Mod’ could move 2nd vid to approved spoilers or just delete it I’d appreciate it…

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Calling @craig or @jimthefish ? Sorry – I dun a whoopsie…..

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@wolfweed — duly removed. Interesting though. I’d recommend you repost in Spoilers….

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@jimthefish – Ta for the wipe!

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@wolfweed — there, hopefully that’s worked this time….

[lisa @lisa]

Update.   I previously suggested that Missy should get a TV in the “vault”. Just  seemed like a

rational idea.   Well   I had another very close look  behind  the piano there seems to be a  TV!

It has a blank dark screen in a mid-century modern white cabinet!

.   Thought I would share my joy over this happy discovery!

 

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@jimthefish – Yes, ta. Sorry for the kerfuffle, folks. I obviously still require plenty more sleep….!

tlotl transcript

Superman 2, anyone?

[Anonymous @]

@nick Oh come On!

Since this speculation is based on an external fact it is spoilerish

Huh? I said that I thought it could easily be another Master! Why? The skull on the BB and the crazed laugh!

That’s bonkerising theorising. It’s not out of context but from the episode we just watched!

<befuddled Puro>

Jeepers, help me out here. But if I’ve….you know….said something then I apologise.

[Nick @nick]

@Thane15

I’m not sure I understand you. I agree I certainly wasnt that clear on my post. I was trying to do no more than draw your attention to the link @wolfweed posted and what bonkers implications you might draw from that information. I felt, along with wolfweed that the information didnt constitute a spoiler, although it has some potential to become one.  In fact I am now aware of some additional information which suggests that it could well be spoilerish (I have asked wolfweed for his opinion given he follows the internet closer than I do).

I just wanted to warn you and any other reader that I considered that there was potential on the spoiler front, which some readers might like to avoid.

Sorry for any confusion arising from my post.

[Anonymous @]

@nick

crossed wires, man

I was referring to what I said -I had no idea what wolfweed posted at that point (I only woek up 30 mins ago) . My bonkerising was my own -not related to anything else/what anyone else said except for @brewski above.

Also, on the Spoilers page -I’m all over that.

Bu thanks for the warring warning 🙂

It’s all good.

Puro

[Nick @nick]

@thane15 – Puro – I’ve sent you a PM on this topic 🙂

[tardigrade @tardigrade]

@missrori

All that’s certain is that the execution that wasn’t was “A long time ago” — at least from the Doctor’s perspective.

Unfortunately “A long time ago” doesn’t mean a lot for a time traveller. It seems to have been at least 70 years, which by itself would be a long time for Missy to be in solitary confinement- not the best way to foster sanity I would have thought 🙂

@nick

The stated combined ages for each regeneration don’t really tally in any sensible way imo. Worse there has always been unexplained gaps and big increases, as he has gradually aged over the last 50 years.

It’s always going to be a bit arbitrary what the Doctor gives as his age. I don’t have a problem with gaps in his timeline. We’re not seeing everything he’s getting up to, particularly when he’s between companions. It also would seem a pity if, as a TL, he potentially could have a lifespan of many thousands of years, but burned through regenerations at one every handful of years.

@blenkinsopthebrave

I wonder if Moffat has been in discussion with Chibnall about the transfer? Would it be likely that he is setting the stage in some way for the next iteration of the Doctor and the show?

I’d certainly assume so. The writers should have been working on a new series before this one finished filming. A new regeneration gives a fair bit of freedom in setting a new direction though.

@lisa

I previously suggested that Missy should get a TV in the “vault”…

Without putting it too coarsely, if she was locked in the containment area for 6 months at a stretch, toilet facilities would be more important, assuming that TLs need those- I don’t know if that’s a matter of canon though 🙂

@wolfweed

Ta for the wipe!

The mods living up to the TL title and going back and changing history.

[tardigrade @tardigrade]

In retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have followed my call for bathroom facilities in the vault, with @wolfweed‘s “Ta for the wipe!”. Not an intention juxtaposition 🙂

[lisa @lisa]

@tardigrade

LOL!! Yeah,  they got these new things I call grannie pull ups – but that would be like

a super violation on a hip chick like Missy don’t ya think?   Um,  I dunno

Clearly this is far  too extreme bonkering  🙁

 

[nerys @nerys]

@lisa I shouldn’t have said the only one left. Maybe the one most readily available is a better way of putting it. But they were childhood friends, as I recall, and so maybe that’s why the Doctor feels compelled to try to save her. It certainly is a dysfunctional relationship, as you rightly point out.

[Anonymous @]

@lisa

What’s a grannie-pull up?

Oh !! OK. I literally just got that.

I actually thought it was a type of corset-style underwear worn by d’ladies of the era in which Missy is dressed?

I see that you meant: grown up nappies.  (pardon me for my dullness!)

@tardigrade

“Ta for the wipe”  LOL.

I’m connecting all this waaay back to when Clara and Missy were sitting under the shade of the tree aeroplane & discussing the “friendships of TLs. Have you any idea what friendship is like?” asks Missy [I’m paraphrasing wildly here] and therefore I’m extending this to an off-air conversation: “look, Missy-mate, we’re old, old friends. Of course I can wipe your bottom. That’s what friends do.”

😀

[Mirime @mirime]

I don’t agree with everything said in this link but it’s an interesting look at the philosophy of the ‘Trilogy’ truth in fidelity… (& it makes me appreciate it a bit more as a trilogy, even though it’s slagging it off a bit)

@wolfweed Thanks for the link, it’s reminded me of something – anyone else here play the Deus Ex games? Because on the seeing the room the Doctor was kept in I was reminded of the room in Deus Ex Human Revolution that a certain character was kept in after being kidnapped and made to work for the bad guys (is that a spoiler? Does it matter for a six year old  game?). It’s the chairs. And the whiteness, obviously.

[Nick @nick]

@mirime

Isn’t it a design riff on 2001’s final scenes ?

 

http://www.collativelearning.com/2001%20chapter%205.html some pictures in here.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Human flaws…

 

[Mirime @mirime]

@nick could well be, but I’ve seen that once and it was 20 years ago while Deus Ex is one of my obsessions hobbies!

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