The Time of Angels / Flesh and Stone – S31 (5) 4 and 5

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  • #14896
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    The return of two Moffat icons – River is back and the Angels are back. The crash of The Byzantium, as mentioned in the Library, is the location (I think I heard them say it was all @phaseshift ‘s fault). There’s a lot to enjoy, especially at the start between Eleven and River, and Amy’s bemusement at the two of them, but the mystique of the Angels seems diluted by Moffat trying to extend them when they were perfect as they were. There are so many changes. The image of an Angel becoming an Angel is empowering (if quite contrived and perhaps even silly), but the Angels assuming you can see them, even when your eyes are shut, just took it one step too far. Grrrrr!

    That said, I do like the whole style of these episodes, the action drama, and the horror movie conceit of the Angels speaking through Bob has darker shades of Miss Evangelista (interesting name now, come to think of it) speaking her last after her death. Amy’s countdown is suitably creepy, the Doctor gets to be all stroppy again near the end, and Iain Glen… just brilliant as always. “I think you have known me at my best”.

    But I still don’t understand the whole crack in the wall thing. Am I being dim or do you just have to go with the flow and enjoy it despite it not having any logic whatsoever? Even after watching the later episodes it still confuses me – once again a duck pond with no ducks. Have the cracks ever really been explained?

    #14975
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @craig

    I think I heard them say it was all @phaseshift ‘s fault

    I may need TARDIS translation circuits to understand what you’re getting at here. 😉

    I’d completely forgotten we were doing this as a two parter. I think it may be tomorrow before I get round to watching both parts.

    #14978
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Just my usual purile attempt at humour. 😉 I think the lines about the crash are:

    The Doctor: The warp engines had a phaseshift
    River: Phaseshift would have to be sabotage

    Something you’re not telling us?

    #14979
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Hmmm… I think this particular discussion is going to struggle against the ‘new Doctor’ excitement. But anyway, some comments.

    I found myself very conscious that this was the first story filmed for the Eleventh/Moffat era; especially now that we’re nearing the end of that period. Matt seems – not tentative, but less layered than he’ll later become. I remember watching The Name of The Doctor and thinking how he’d grown as an actor throughout his run; you can see that here. Especially in Flesh and Stone, when the Eleventh’s underlying anger is played as straightforward fury.

    And there are the funny bits; the flirting between Eleven and River. The obvious irritation that he is (however much River tries to avoid that spoiler) being effectively pushed into an arranged marriage – by Time itself.

    The Doctor: Time is not the boss of me.

    A lot of the Moffat era develops that theme. And generally – whenever The Doctor says that line, or some variation of that line, the answer comes back -yes, Time IS the boss of you. As it does here. He rather obviously fancies River – but every interaction is coloured by the fact that she clearly knows him well and he barely knows her at all. He doesn’t even know that she isn’t yet a Professor…

    The Angels: given that they go back to never seeing them move in The Angels Take Manhattan, I think everyone agreed that seeing them move was a mistake. Oh, well. Some things you don’t find out until you try them. I vaguely get what he was groping towards with ‘walk like you can see’ – if the response is instinctual, a person moving, confidently, will trigger the response; you won’t really be watching for the blink unless you’re in full hunting mode (which they’re not – their attention is, according to the lines, now on the Crack). It’s when you stand still and shut your eyes…

    But it didn’t work very well. The fact that they can choose to snap your neck did, for me. It made them nastier, less ‘lunch’ orientated, and made it extremely clear that these are intelligent creatures who can plan (and they do have a plan in Blink). They want you out of the way, but they’re not hungry? Because right now, there’s all the energy they can eat coming from the crashed spaceship? You’re dead – and not through living to death.

    Production funnies: Matt Smith’s hair! Where a hairstyle that clearly worked just fine in the studio develops serious problems on a windswept Welsh beach. They tried tons of hair gel, they tried having it completely swept back – but in the end they just had to get the scissors out and give him a quick trim. In the middle of the shoot.  😉

    @craig – The cracks get explained a bit in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang – they’re the first signs of the TARDIS exploding throughout space and time.

     

    #14980
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @phaseshift – yeah, this seemed to be the best one to do as two episodes/one week; I think you really need a week between The Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang to try and approximate the original impact. Everything had gone so disastrously wrong by the end of TPO, that week’s wait seemed endless.

    But Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone feels much more like one story over 90 minutes. Instead of TPO/TBB’s two-act-play-with-interval.

    #14982
    Anonymous @

    @craig and @phaseshift – tee hee hee.

    @bluesqueakpip – as ever, your analysis is grand. I still have to watch this two-parter this weekend, but it’s fresh enough in my mind from the original airing that I completely understood your comment.  And those little insider details about Matt’s hair – fab!  I will look for that upon re-viewing.

    We all had a bit of a barney about the changes in the Angels in another thread.  I’m still firmly of the belief that what Moffat did with them here (well, they are his creations, so he can do what he likes) is disappointing from what they were proposed in Blink (cf what @craig said).  And the whole ‘eyes closed’ thing was, to me, just wrong wrong wrong.  Although — you do have an interesting take on that point, and one which I’d not considered before – with your eyes closed, you cannot blink.

    Off to walk the Airedales and watch this two-parter later —

     

    #14994
    Anonymous @

    I guess one of the problems with Steven Moffat’s clever-clever approach is that, upon re-watch, I mainly looked for that moment when I knew that ‘future Doctor’ told Amy to remember what he told her when she was 7, and that she had to trust him (with his jacket on).

    Btw, how did the Doctor get his jacket back?

    And that attempted snog from Amy at the end was as cringe-making as when I originally watched these episodes.  I remember at the time, arguing that someone who’s been through a near-death experience wants sex (this is a known phenomenon in psychology) but it still rang totally false for me on screen.

    #15008
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    OK I re-arranged things to take in this two parter and watch Ghost Light tomorrow I think.

    For me, after Beast Below, this is Moff on confident form and I quite understand @bluesqueakpip here in saying this is perhaps his final “conventional” two parter. Thereafter we are presented with gear changes that subvert the format of the show and expand it a little.

    I still find it a little thrilling on rewatch. The intro for River, and the Doctor and Amy phasing into the story is brilliant. The setup for the exploration of the labyrinth is superb and adds layers to the initial encounter in the Library.

    The confrontation between Amy and the loop Angel is pretty mindblowing psychological warfare on a young viewer. It says – “you think that screen between you and the monsters is a barrier – think again”. It’s Ringu for kids, as their nightmare comes out of the screen! On primetime TV! Mary Whitehouse would have had a meltdown at this point.

    River (reading): “What if we had ideas that could think for themselves? What if one day our dreams no longer needed us? When these things occur and are held to be true, the time will be upon us. The Time of Angels.”

    I think this is actually foreshadowing some of the ideas for the last episode. The possibility of dreams and the abstract (and the Angels are described as creatures of the Abstract) becoming form by imagination. This has been criticised but does have some precedents in Who from “The Mind Robber”. What can be imagined can be a reality in some abstract plane.

    This really does crack along a pace. The reveal of the statues of the Apolan being Angels is brilliant.

    Next ep – Christ – the firefight in the airlock as the clerics gunfire illuminates the Angels advance is stunning. It does remind you of a good action film like Camerons Aliens. Thereafter, its fun. I love the TreeBorgs and the idea of an O2 factory or forest running through the ship. It’s a big idea, delivered in such a casual way.

    Lots of channelling of Doctor 7 here. This exchange, you can almost substitute 7 and Ace (as we’re watching Ghostlight)

    The Doctor: “Amy. You need to start trusting me. It’s never been more important.”
    Amy: “But you don’t always tell me the truth.”
    The Doctor: “If I always told you the truth I wouldn’t need you to trust me.”

    As @craig said, Father Octavian is a brilliant character here, at his end. I also particularly like the Doctor not being able to see the cyber wood for the cyber trees with:

    River: “I’ve traveled in time. I’m a complicated space-time event too. Throw me in.”
    The Doctor: “Oh be serious, compared to me these Angels are more complicated than you and it’d take every single one of them to amount to me, so get a grip.”

    She’s basically informing him that they are so alike, a full 12 months before we get the truth, and he dismisses it.

    No – objections to a couple of things that didn’t work for some people aside, this is one of the great linear two parters of AG who I feel. It’s a cracking adventure which I think poses some pretty neat questions, ignites the speculation frenzy (the coat!?) and made us suspect at the time that this was going in a direction that was really different from seasons 1-4.

    I’ll come back to the question of the Angels later.

    #15010
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    In fact, I enjoyed this even more than the first time. Possibly because a cartoon Graham Norton didn’t wander onto the screen during the gripping final scene of the first part.

    Anyone remember that one? I loved his apology on his following show though (@shazzbot – yes, I love Graham too).

    #15020
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    On Angels

    One of the things that has always intrigued me is what makes a successful villain in Who. Most understand that the Daleks are a thinly veiled reference to Nazi philosophies. These observations were made before I was born in 1969, so I’ve always seemed to know this. I knew that the Daleks were Nazis before I even understood the full horror of what Nazis represent. Many people have chosen to lampoon Terry Nation for this, his peculiar fixation. Not only the Daleks, but if you watch his Blakes 7 from the seventies the entire concept of the Federation is a Fascist regime. In 1963 – the second world war was a critical touchstone event. The damage it had caused, but more fundamentally the question – “what made them do that?” when considering the full horror of the “final solution”. It was a question and issue that haunted Nation and I can’t begrudge him – I did not grow up informed by that era.

    When looking at the Angels, you wonder if there is a real life equivalent to compare them to. Are they, as the Daleks obviously are, a comment on the horrors that humanity seems to breed? I think the answer if yes. For me they represent a more modern fixation. That of the Serial Killer, and the “romantic ideal” that arises out of this peculiar fixation.

    I have no love for the form of fiction that glamorises the serial killer, and this is by no means a modern phenomenon. You can call “Jack” the original if you wish, and he’s the most well known, and occurs most often in popular culture. They are, as people say “Big Business”.

    When watching Blink, I was stuck by the description “The Lonely Assassins”. It reminded me of something, and I struggled, but I remembered an account of Denis Neilson who once described himself as “The selfless assassin”. A peculiar psychology of these people is to adopt a persona, a absolute belief that what they do makes sense. They are the hunter, you are their prey for a good reason. If only you could understand it.

    If you watch their three main appearances, they display all the hallmarks of the form. In Blink by choosing their target (Sally) and haunting/taunting her. Playing with their food. Taking delight in witnessing the damage. Taking from her a friend and a potential partner as she is manipulated towards a goal.

    In this one we see them take voice and taunt the voices of Authority (Octavian and the Doctor) with their intention to kill and display glee that those in authority cannot understand their motivations and goals. Pretty common in real life Police cases.

    In this there is a comment that to observe an Angel is to become an Angel. In representation, this is almost like possession. How many references can you name that show those who study and observe the behaviour of serial killers may become affected by them – X-Files, Millennium, Bones, It’s a rich vein isn’t it? For me it probably starts in “Manhunter” where Will Graham is tormented by Hannibal Lector (played by Brian Cox, sorry Sir Anthony, he will always be Hannibal for me and Manhunter pisses on Red Dragon).

    For me – asking what the motivation and philosophy for the Angels existence is at this point is a pretty dumb question. They are what they are – Alien. They have their own motivations – their own timeframe and their own goals. To dwell on them may be dangerous. This may be frustrating for some who demand those immediate truths, but then these are creatures of the abstract for abstract times. The uncomfortable truth for some is that you will never know why the fiend took your loved ones away from you. You will never understand the foe or their motivation.

    They are so very alien.

    But the effect is so very real. I don’t need people to agree with me that the Angels “work”. It’s pretty easy to observe. The live prom a few weeks back – I knew when the Angels appeared. It was the biggest reaction from the audience. I’d heard it before on that film from Sidney. Hear the gasp from the audience as the Angels appear.

    It really is the stuff of nightmares. If not for you, then for a lot of other people. I see the visage of the Angel on kids lunchboxes with a bit of meloncholy, to be frank. I think they are on the way to becoming modern icons.

    #15022
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift – this really reads as a blog post.  You have some excellent ideas here and they deserve proper replies in a separate entry.

    #15024
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @shazzbot

    Many thanks, but I think I’d prefer to develop them through Angels In Manhatten and maybe consider a blogpost after that. I don’t think anyone has suggested this before, so maybe it is just me. I’m just interested in feedback.

    #15040
    Nick @nick

    @phaseshift

    Without any doubt, the Angels are the one of the most creative concepts to come out of AG Who. We can be in no doubt about this. I don’t doubt Steven Moffat can develop his concept further than he has done and remove some of my objections which I consider to limit the overall effectiveness of the Angels as a protagonist (discussed elsewhere on this forum). Whether this can be done without removing some of the current mystique is a different matter. As has been commented above, his first attempt in this story to change the Angels modus operandi doesn’t appear to have been totally successful.

    I neither feel strongly for or against your Serial Killer concept other than to say that I suspect that it may relate to popular culture’s understanding of serial killers rather than that of (criminal) psychology’s attempts to explain rather than anything else. You seem to be aware that the popular description and the reality of serial killers is rather different and its my distinct impression that you are partially mixing description of  serial killers with that of psychopaths. My limited understanding is that whilst there is some overlap between these groups it is not universal. I look forward to seeing how you develop and explain your concept in light of your own and others thoughts. It is certainly an interesting idea.

    The Angels arewithout doubt a fabulous creation, but I’m less sure that they are on the way to becoming a modern Icon than you are. I think to be an icon in the absolute sense, then the very name and image conjurors up a common understanding throughout society that making the classic “John Birt is a Dalek” claim [I forget the exact wording used] conveys the writers conceit without any further explanation being needed. I have no doubt that both the Daleks and the Tardis (and Doctor Who itself) achieved iconic status in British society between the 1960s and the 1990s. Even here, I rather think both are passing out of the modern icon lexicon in the 2010s. This doesn’t mean either are less well known than previously, just (for example) it seems to me much less likely that a younger person would ever describe someone as a “Dalek” to describe another’s actions or personality today.

    The Angels have a long way to go before they have penetrated the wider fabric of society to the same extent that either the Daleks or the Tardis did in he past. My suspicion is that it is much harder to create icons on our multi-media environment than in the past and that they have a shorter shelf life than previously [To illustrate my point, Omnishables was very much the 2012 word of the year in Britain, but just how much is it being used just a year later ?].

    However, I do think you are right, the Angels have already become an icon of the Who universe up their with the Davros, Cybermen, Master and other BG foes who are in the same pantheon. I expect we will see other writers take up SM’s concept and create something new and interesting for the Angels in the future, although only time will tell on that.

    Nick

    #15285
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I love the interplay between the Doctor and River. He seems (in my opinion as a straight woman) rather ungratefully reluctant at the prospect of what he knows is coming (I think we can fairly say know that ten knew, at her point of death, she would become his wife). Of course he comes to help her when she asked- but then again, has too, because she saves his life. There is also, I think, a particular chemistry between the two of them, which made me think at the time that he was almost certainly ‘her doctor’. (Previously River made comments about Ten’s youth, and being a ‘pretty boy’, but Moffat never intended to cast someone Smiths age, and eleven always did seem older.)

    This is where we saw,  more closely, what the cracks were about- not so much ‘the nothing’ as ‘the never was’. But the use of the Angels in a plot which required them a) to kill people, not just shunt them back in time and b) be fooled into thinking they were being looked at is a little weak. Amy gets past the Angels by not opening her eyes, rather than not blinking, it’s an interesting inversion, but does it work? The growing malevolence of the Angels is another issue. At first they kill for food, but quite kindly (is there a link between the potential they feed off from their victims and Clara’s mother’s leaf?), now they just kill, not for eating, and play with their victims. Later on they’ve ‘progressed’ to battery farming. But were they more terrifying at first because they lacked this humanesque ‘evil’ and just did what they had evolved to do?

    #15294
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    For those who enjoy the Confidentials: the one for the first episode in this double parter. Sadly, I can’t find the full version of the second part.

     

    #17827
    voidxsama @voidxsama

    I actually have an extremely small theory about the beings behind the weeping angels. I believe they might actually be time lords. If you watch the episodes when “The Master” comes back, and get to where you are seeing them speak, they mention the council men that did not agree with them to go back, were referred to at the “Weeping angels”, and as they came out of the gate you saw 2 of them having their faces covered like the original weeping angels. Now, they mention that the time lords are in a time lock correct? Well that’s true, but as long as something that was there before the time lock came into effect and managed to remain outside of it, then small things could get out. Like if you saw, the doctors mother kept getting out to talk to Donna’s grandfather. But only really as a image. This proves that small bits of them can get out but only as a consciousness. The angels also disappear and reappear into existence, turning into stone as the light comes back on.

     

    I would absolutely love to hear everyone opinions on this. Again it’s only a small theory and it’s not completely put together, but it would be pretty cool to find that the weeping angels really were time lords. Then maybe we feel the doctor wouldn’t be completely alone.

    #23954
    Anonymous @

    ‘@voldxsama’ – One thing that might support your Angels as TL theory is how they constantly tried to make the Doctor angry by taunting him. Why would anyone do that?  They seemed to have a personal connction to him and the time lords are arogant enough to do that.

    These two episodes have everything I love about Doctor Who in them. River, Amy, Eleven and the Angels all in one masterpeice of storytelling, and got me hopelessly hooked on the show after watching them.  

    I agree that if there is a mistake in them, it was Amy with her eyes closed and the Angels not moving. But like has been stated earlier in the thread there are logical explanations (with a little bit of reaching)for why they might not move.  @bluesqueakpip gave the reason I beleive, that they were more afraid of the crack then hunting at the time. Also Amy’s sudden attraction to the Doctor was strange, but it did help set up stories like the Vampires of Venice and Amy’s Choice by planting the seed of doubt about who Amy really wanted Rory or the Doctor.

    The parts that prove SM is a genius is everything else. Most of which has already been mention in the thread with much better analyses than I can do. But the escape at the end of part one, by shooting the gravity ball and jumping. Then opening the next episode with the hundred and eighty degree camera spin showing the doctor’s party upside down always blows my mind, for first even thinking of that and second it looks really cool.  And River Song’s entrance into the Tardis, landing on top of the Doctor is the best ever.

    #29508
    MadAngel37 @madangel37

    This was the first episode I was REALLY interested in. First off, I love angels (stone or not), and these angels grabbed my attention. They also were the first thing to scare me in a long while. The concept of the angels was brilliantly thought of and excellently executed. As a story writer, this was very solid and amazingly written.

    Secondly, the Doctor and River appear in a weird order. Her past, his future. That is very confusing. Some times you have to go back and watch episodes out of order just to understand what is going on between them.  Although, it is quite amazing to think of having that kind of relationship.  I’m glad it’s River and the Doctor. I cannot see either of them with someone else.

     

    #29868
    ironvalcon @ironvalcon

    disclaimer- first post on this site

    I was watching this episode and I thought to myself, “Why do the weeping angles require time? Aren’t they just plain old dw monsters!” But then I remembered that at the end of both Blink and Angles Take Manhattan that they reveal that almost all statues are angles. Even the statue of liberty! So what I believe is that the connection between the Bad Wolf station and the Dalek ship could have had some effects on the planet the station was orbiting around. So time energy radiates all of the earth and then statues are made from the mutated planet [Earth]. Now they are sperarted from the source of their mutation so they need to refuel… Am I crazy?

    #31075
    Nightmare @nightmare

    The Weeping Angels are my favourite enemy they are just awesome

    #51602
    winston @winston

    I have been rewatching episodes in little groups, like all of the shows where the Angels appear. Starting with Blink and now this 2 parter. It was good to watch these two without a break , like a movie. What more could you ask for? River and Amy and Angels all in one roller coaster of a story with spaceships and space museums and a very scary baddie. There was also a lot of humour as River and Amy tease the Doctor about his possible future. The idea of the Angels using poor Angel Bob to anger the Doctor was great but creepy. All in all a great story despite some of its weaknesses and one I really enjoyed.

    By the way , I have wallpaper om my PC that is the shot of the Angel that is caught on video in this episode. My Hubby, who only glances at Who now and then ,saw the picture and asked “Why do you have that spooky Angel on your computer?” They seem to give everyone the creeps.

    #51604
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @winston Yes, Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone is a great story. It’s particularly brilliant when you remember that this was Matt Smith’s first real outing as the Doctor – they filmed The Eleventh Hour out of order so that he had a bit of a grip on the character before he had to introduce it.

    Blink always has the same problem for me as Kill the Moon. Kill the Moon had the problem that I like spiders, and Blink had the problem that moving statues are just not scary. I blame the lack of fear of moving statues on books like Edith Nesbit’s The Enchanted Castle (I just like spiders). And getting stuck in the past? When this is a series about time travel and companions routinely leave by staying in all sorts of places and times? That also failed the Pip Scarymeter.

    But Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone hit the mark. Angel Bob is truly creepy, the Angel getting inside Amy’s head is truly creepier, and the idea that the Angels would do a countdown ‘for fun’ shows their psycho nature as Blink didn’t.

    Also there’s spaceships, and cyborg forests, and River and a great speech by the Doctor – really, what more could a fan want? 🙂

    #51605
    winston @winston

    @bluesqueakpip I agree with you about Blink except to say that being zapped away from family and friends is pretty nasty and although you do live out you life it must start out being very confusing and scary. That is what scared me the most about the Angels in Blink.I am kind of scared of spiders also.
    The Angels in Angels/Stone were cruel and much deadlier and definately creepier.The idea of one coming out of your TV is scary genius.

    #63196
    Ucragnian @ucragnian

    Someone please shed some light on why the Weeping Angels biggest weakness has never been exploited ‘….. In The Doctor’s own words ….”When you’re looking at them, they’re just ordinary stone” … so put down the sonic screwdriver & pick up a good old fashioned, reliable hammer and smash the  b l e e d i n’   c r a p out of them……cause maybe I missed something.

    #63198

    @ucragnian

    Try hitting something with a hammer without blinking.

    #63199
    toinfinityandbepond @toinfinityandbepond

    Didn’t River have to break her wrist because she couldn’t break the Angels fingers?

    #63200
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @ucragnian @pedant

    There is also the problem that there you can’t guarantee that there will always be a sledgehammer to hand when you need  one, and a sledgehammer is a pretty cumbersome thing to carry around on the off chance that you might encounter a weeping angel.  You would also need safety goggles, because a stone chip in the eye would certainly cause you to blink 😉

    Of course, the Tardis could no doubt manufacture the necessary if the Doctor were actually expecting to find weeping angels, but so far that hasn’t been the case.

    #63201
    Ucragnian @ucragnian

    Thinking more of a small rock hammer…normal looking hammer head on 1 side & steel point on the other…Easy to crack the head off at the neck with 1 of those…or…ya could always just push them over…Bet they’d break…..The thing is that they’re just normal stone when they’re being watched….Get everyone looking at them while 1 by 1 you turn them around to face each other…Problem solved

    Incidentally wouldn’t his SONIC screwdriver be able to shatter stone ??

     

    #63202
    Ucragnian @ucragnian

    Try hitting something without blinking….with a hammer ??

    Mate….How do you not hit your thumb ??

    Eyes on the head of the nail & focus….You too can do it if you try…For further instruction watch The Karate Kid.

    Ralf can do it in 1 hit

    #73661
    Rewvian @rewvian

    So I am posting my rewatch thoughts on Victory of the Daleks here, since it doesn’t have its own thread.

    I liked the impassioned wrench-banging and yelling the Doctor did early in the episode.  “I am the Doctor, and YOU are the Daleks!”  It helps to flesh out the range of this Doctor, and to show he’s not about to trust one of his greatest enemies.  The revelation that the Daleks created the scientist to make him think he created the “ironsides” was a nice twist.

    The episode did a good job, as well, of sticking with continuity.  The Doctor realizing Amy should have known of the Daleks from prior events in the AG series was a big one.  The real big bad of the episode was the brand new Dalek race being unveiled.  Though, I admit I was confused by why the old Daleks were posing as British soldiers in the first place, and unsure of what needed to be done in order for them to unlock the new Daleks.  Apparently it amounted to the Doctor reminding the Daleks that he’s the Doctor, and that was enough to solve their problem.  Oops.  It was also frightening how the new Daleks exterminated their “inferior” counterparts.

    Churchill didn’t really bother me too much.  Yeah I’m not big on real famous people being portrayed in DW, but as I surmised before I guess it bothers me less when it’s a long-gone historical figure rather than some person who is still active.  I thought it was funny when he tried to steal the TARDIS key, and he filled a certain personality-type that meshed well as an antithesis to the sort of hero that the Doctor is.  He was simply looking to use any means necessary to win the war.

    Amy continues to come more into her own in this episode, simply by having moments where she can display her personality.  Such as, walking up to the Dalek to ask it directly if it’s an evil alien.  I was a bit shocked there was a moment where Amy seemed to confirm having feelings for the Doctor over the years, or at least I interpreted it that way.

    Admittedly the scene with the fighter planes going into space was too goofy for me.  The tech wouldn’t have been there (and still isn’t), and I took it as something the writers wanted to do just to have their Star Wars-y scene with the Dalek satellite dish that was forcing lights to stay on in the city.

    The Daleks’ trap of having the scientist built with a bomb inside of him was a great plot device.  The Doctor either goes and deals with it or stops the new Daleks.  We knew he would ultimately choose the Earth.  And as Amy is able to convince the Doctor, the results weren’t too shabby.  Let’s face it, we knew the Daleks would come back again somehow, and with a brand new iteration of them we are sure to see them again.

    I must once again say that Matt Smith’s performance as the Doctor is quite good, and I think his ability to deliver those lines and mannerisms with believability helped keep the series afloat long after Tennant stepped down from the role.

    #73672
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @rewvian I watched this a few days ago. My impressions were pretty much the same as yours. Spitfires in Space was a bit goofy, even if they were fitted with stolen Dalek tech (at least I presume that’s where Bracewell got his ideas from). And the bit where Amy saved him was touching. Had the Daleks managed to create a human? I assume they had captured the original Bracewell and implanted his memories into their android.

    And the plot device of the Daleks needing the Doctor to confirm their identity before the Progenitor would recognise them – that was very ingenious and satisfyingly ironical.

    #73676
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    This double episode was full of interesting/dramatic things happening.   I wasn’t going to bother to make any comments but somehow I felt impelled to.   Here’s my impressions anyway.

    Excellent start, with the guard wandering around a park in the sunshine – what a way to introduce River’s hypnotic lipstick.

    And what a way to reintroduce River – leaving a message on the ‘black box’ in the certainty that the Doctor would find it somewhere in time and come to her rescue – what absolute faith that implies. And I love that River can fly the Tardis better than the Doctor. And I love the way River and the Doctor keep one-upping each other.

    “There’s a thing in the belly of that ship that can’t ever die” – suitably ominous words.

    And the diary – “Her past, my future” – this is where I read too much into it and concluded that time flowed in the opposite direction for River – which it didn’t. Any more than me flying Auckland – Hong Kong – Seoul – Vladivostok while someone else flies Vladivostok – Seoul – Hong Kong – Auckland implies that North is in different directions for us.

    Bishop Octavian is a distinctly sinister-looking character at this stage. But his troops, drop-ship and all, remind me of the plot of Aliens. (Umm, Bishop – there was a character called Bishop in Aliens. The Moff is playing with us!)

    “Whatever holds the image of an Angel, becomes an Angel” – a new and frightening power these things have. And this is the first time in the series that Amy has been in real direct peril. And clever Amy, to stop the tape loop on the gap so the Angel lost its power. BUT as we later find out, Amy now has an image of the Angel in her eye.

    And it seems that Bishop is River’s warder and she is on temporary parole from prison. Plenty of intriguing threads going on here.

    Angelo and Christian getting zapped by an Angel is good and scary. What is even more chilling is the realisation that the Aplans had two heads but all the ‘statues’ – only have one. And then we have Angel Bob talking to them, and Amy’s hand turns to stone (in her mind). Amy in peril *again* – she’s going to get tired of this before the episode is over.

    Part 2 – so now we have the classic trapped-in-a-corridor scene. And the Doctor has to turn out the lights to operate the door. (I’m reminded of the campy TV series ‘Hercules’ where Herc, confronted by yet another cavern full of traps, would lament “Who dreams up these things?”)

    And now the Angel in Amy’s brain is counting down…

    So then we get the haunted forest, another suitably spooky setting.

    Love the way the Doctor keeps tweaking Angel Bob about ‘life’.

    And the crack in the Universe reappears. And the Doctor is surrounded by Angels who grab his coat. This lot don’t seem to be inhibited by looking at each other, why not?

    And now we have the blind-man-in-danger routine, except this is Amy who daren’t open her eyes. I thought this scenario was a bit contrived, to be honest, though the scariest yet. I make this the third time Amy is in dire peril in this double episode. And then her guards run off to investigate the bright light. And the remaining guard has forgotten the others even existed.

    And then an Angel gets Bishop, who, all in all, has quite a heroic death. But before he dies he reveals that River was in Stormcage for killimg a man – but he won’t say who. Another ongoing plot thread.

    So then the time energy leaking out of the crack threatens to swallow up Amy, and she has to keep walking – with her eyes shut – but avoiding Angels using her communicator signal but pretending she can see them so they don’t zap her. Truly scary stuff, relieved only when River manages to teleport her to safety in the control room. Purely temporary safety because the Angels rock up a few seconds later. This latest peril is resolved when the ship’s power finally fails, the artificial gravity turns off, and the Angels fall into the crack. Neat.

    And since the Angels have ceased to have ever existed, the one in Amy’s eye never existed either. Retrospective non-existence.

    And as a coda, back in her house, Amy wants a last fling before she gets married in the morning. I got a good laugh out of the Doctor fending off Amy’s advances. The extra scene where the Doctor tries to pretend he never had any previous attractive Companions is classic – can anyone name all the Companions that the Tardis shows Amy?

    The best episode so far of the 11th Doctor, IMO.

    #73679
    Rewvian @rewvian

    So these episodes had a lot going on.  Mostly, it serves to explain that time can be re-written, and it even references why people don’t remember the Cyber King from The Next Doctor.  Ian Glenn is featured as the leader of a militant priest group, so it’s like Ser Jorah is there.  It is also the second appearance of River Song, who was apparently in prison and tries to keep this secret from the Doctor.

    The plot confused me a little because they were chasing after the ship River Song was on, but wind up on this planet.  The logistics of what was going on was confusing.  River Song’s reasons for going along on the mission were also unclear, though perhaps she was brought on this mission because she got the Doctor’s help.

    Most of the episode felt a bit like an older before AG episode of DW.  At least I thought so.  The gravity light orb thrown out early in the episode was pretty cool, and was eventually used as a plot device midway through to get everyone to float to the ceiling.  (And, I guess, the ship?)  The discovery that all of the statues in the cavern were malnourished Weeping Angels was unsettling, as was the realization because the statues only had one head and not two like the planet’s native race.

    Weeping Angels being able to become real through photos and videos taken of them is also pretty frightening.  The affliction Amy suffers from looking into the eyes of a weeping angel seemed also to make the monsters even more troublesome.  Luckily nobody in “Blink” looked the angels straight in the eye.

    Ultimately the Crack in the ship turned out to be what saved the day.  The idea that the weeping angel in Amy’s mind was gone just like the soldiers that went to check out the crack for themselves was a resolution that worked.  Amy walking with her eyes closed through the forest was scary enough, but she would have been caught if River hadn’t teleported her when she did.

    Amy coming onto the Doctor at the end was quite something, and made me wish I was the Doctor, ha.

    #73680
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @dentarthurdent I had completely forgotten about River being able to fly the TARDIS better than the Doctor at the beginning of the episode, but I thought that was a great scene.  Apparently the TARDIS makes its familiar noise because he leaves the breaks on.  The scene with the “homing box” and the writing in Gallifreyan suggests early on that River has some knowledge of the Time Lords.

    The episode pretty much confirmed that the Doctor and River meet in no particular order, which makes more sense to me.  The other week when we were talking I mentioned how I was confused that they were supposed to have met in opposite order, but it isn’t like that.

    I thought it was odd that the angels were snapping the necks of their victims instead of sending them back in time like they usually do.  I’m not sure if I missed something there explaining why that was.

    The Doctor’s comments about “life” over the communicator with Bob were great, lol.

    I think Amy and Rory’s relationship had to be a little on the rocks at this point, so that must improve over the coming seasons.

    I loved your summary, I think you were way more detailed than I am.  I like that other people are doing the rewatch thing too now.

    #73681
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

    I was reading the previous lovely review, at the part talking about the Bishop being River’s warden and something struck me and yes its soo early on the 2 parter that I could hope onto IPlayer and check but since I’ve just thought of this now and never before and sort of broken my pretty good enjoyment of the ep just now which is strange cause if I got my reviews out yesterday all what have been pretty positive

    I just wondered – River was on the big spaceship , with a weeping angle on it , (crashed why actually is it the angle draining the ships’ engine power or something ? ) anyway so River lands in the Tardis quo “follow that ship” then we arrive after the opening theme and later on we get the Bishops tornado teleport in haha 🙂 and they talk and its clear River told these people about The Doctor well sending them an army even though they are an army so I guess more men the merrier they were thinking.

    My confusion that sprung to mind while half reading the review – if River is meant to be in Storm Cage Jail, A she has already killed the Doctor so that makes it interesting can’t explain why right now it just it just feels interesting to me already done the Doctor in and floating around like not a care or regret about that wow

    However big B if River has escaped prison which I thought was under some sort of base or something but she is escaping a flying spaceship which crashed wow this gets worse has I go through ;

    I used to think the jail was under a base, in the ep she is escaping from it I guess with the lipstick then she fly’s out the door and the ship crashes so 3 problems and I did really enjoy these eps and never thought of this before

    Where is Storm Cage is it on that ship or they just transporting River to it with the Ship so she broke out the ship jail before getting to storm cage ? that would help clear some issues cause if they are the same place I am very confused , the ship is smashed but we have other scenes of storm cage jail guessing at various time line points so maybe those are before the Angels events which leaves me wondering the Doctor knows of this storm cage place why didn’t he check if there was an angle in there or it ever try to get him maybe create a paradox but seems wonky the angle wouldn’t care, and its not massive a time line issue wouldn’t break the universe I mean its a bit like Back to The Future if that angel is there and it doesn’t interact with The Doctor vise versa nothing should break I reckon even though it doesn’t seem catastrophic as the Doctor has meet lots of people and aliens at various points through out their time lines bit example is River in these very episodes 🙂

    Pretty much how did the angle get on that ship and is that ship storm cage ? maybe no but you do wonder since the areas look soo similar the jails and corridors and they Bishop is her jailer as @dentarthurdent says.

    I think its mentioned as like a buyer wants the angle that’s why it’s there like in The Angels take Manhattan but that seems bit silly and if its not said in the ep we are back to why is the Angle there ?

    big B River out of jail – ship boom everyone there gone, so how does the army people track down River ? like I said I am sure she called them but why , what is River thinking calling the people who are her jailers ? like the Bishop guy has River under his protection and knows all about who she killed ect why call them when she just escaped the jail ?

    Big C yes the ship crashed cause the angel somehow you would thought there would be better pro cautions oh well , its said the Angle crashed the ship to get back to that planet and its species ok that’s fine but why is River on the same ship that has a weeping angle if she is meant to be under guard , yes it could be a prison ship or transporter but I wouldn’t risk my prized prisoner with a weeping angle on the same ship especially as said weeping angel can just crash the ship with ease at any point, good thing River knew somehow or was she investigating the ship, why be on it then to tell them your gonna die the ships gonna crash A good thing she knows and escapes B good thing she has the Doctor.

    Urgh I can tell I will drive people round the bend this ep is just collapsing on me, she can’t be investigating if she is locked there , then how does she know its gonna crash ect

    Anyway Spaceship crash – River for some reason calls the people who are her jailers maybe its a law like the ankle bracelet around certain people to stop them breaching out of a radius or into a radius they aren’t meant to maybe River has to have these jailers with her and yes it could just be the Bishop but for simple terms I would think he would tell his crew this is River she is under storm cage rule.

    So she calls them in , there is a thing that can never die in there , they all find out its a weeping angel I reckon these bishops had a connection with the people on the crashed spaceship too , I know for plot or just forget about it people will say but why after River escaped the ship/possible prison why are these jailers like yeah lets go in the big cave to find and capture a weeping angle with the person who should be locked in storm cage ?

    Even through the episodes the Bishop threatens River “Your under my order” something like that and I will tell the Doctor what you did ect so he knows her value to storm cage and what she did, he knows to keep her under watch and will return her back I am sure he says after the day’s done especially if she risks his crew he will tell The Doctor and probs take her back … then why through the 2 eps are you allowing her to stroll through the cave after a weeping angel and then it gets worse when shock every statue there is a weeping angle in a maze of the dead catacombs and all, if I was walking next to the crown Jules (Sci Fi it up 🙂 ) why if someone could take it and in this case send River back in time to who knows where or kill her out right as we see in this ep with the snapping of the necks why is nobody saying lets get out, the Bishop doesn’t command everyone leave or take River out of the danger no just risk it all and Mr Bishop gets killed and all his team so that did well for track River down and watch her like a guard after she escaped.

    Where does she go after this the Pandorica, I know its all -> <- this way that way with the Doctor and River’s time line but is this the end of Storm Cage ? after she been there broke out of there a few times like in A Good Man goes to War , I thought about it I dont think she is in Storm Cage at the begging of The Pandorica she is ruling the Romans ha 🙂 so all this time line I think this is the end of Storm cage but not in The Doctor’s view or us the audience , a first time kiss in The Moon 2 parter so its an early point in the Doctor’s time line, I really do think since we see Storm Cage how we do and River seems set free at some point I can’t remember and I think I remember some words of they let her off cause the Doctor ?? she is never caught again by Storm Cage The universe is re set so why re set Storm cage didn’t things change like Amy got her parents, River is walking outside ? just the eye patch people caught River but its not connected to Storm cage, Series 6 time line is re set again Eye Patch is gone , spacesuit stull happens but different and River is back right ? oh no she just experienced the Weeping Angle ep but to Amy they just did the time line with trains and pyramids.

    Anyway not sure what happens afterwards if there is something in between , we get the next Weeping Angles ep and River is back in time with her own book , thing the Doctor takes her somewhere at the end but I dont know if its mentioned then at the end of 11th’s live before Trenzelor is re shifted , and the romantic night and the library and not sure if there is something after that – this is long and probs very boring I just thing the Series 5 Angle 2 parter is a bit wonky now and is the ending of Storm Cage and wonder why the Weeping angles didn’t show up in the Pandorica don’t remember if they are mentioned with the ships or cause they all got wiped from time and the Manhattan ones are just a few left compared to the Aplan ones and that happens later anyway after a re set Universe so must have re set the Angles in wow cool 🙂

    I should write Who novels someday ha, sorry for the insane ramble just got struck by confusion and trying to plot it out give all the possibilities and try to eliminate some my best guess is the Spaceship crashed River for some reason calls her jailers , all of the army/jailer people get killed through the 2 eps and don’t seem to get back the ones who walked into the light so I cause from a non linear non subjective view point 🙂 that’s the end of Storm Cage and River is free after those events 🙂

    Maybe read this when you’re trying to doze off for the night ha it’s like a mini chapter in itself haha 🙂

    Take Care everyone stay positive and curious hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73682
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

    this cheered me up soo much 🙂 I was telling my friend about my comment and was checking back on this page and was like hey where is what I was refereeing to before the previous comment ?

    Turns out as I was writing my 2 or 3 confusions @rewvian the review champion I believe now posted his ideas while I was still working on my ‘hey wait a minute’ that flashed in my mind near the start of @dentarthurdent‘s review and that was at least 40 minutes between them hahahahha I must of been working on my confusion points for over an hour and it all seems shorter than that with the amount I sometimes write, time flew well I was having fun with the ideas 🙂 how crazy literally said ‘referring to the previous comment’ of @dentarthurdent‘s post and now between reading that and posting mine I sandwiched @rewvian what a steam train I am could ramble into next year with my thoughts haha typical me what a good and funny surprise it was to suddenly not see @dentarthurdent‘s post behind mine haha 🙂

    I hope I am free to keep writing sometimes it brings surprise joy and laughter even to me 🙂

    Take Care everyone stay positive enjoy Who and all your other loves 🙂 hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73683
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @oochillyo We don’t mind your longer posts at all.  I have been known at times to really write pages of stuff, myself.  I say if you enjoy getting your thoughts out on here then go for it!  This place could use a bit of discussion and debate anyways.  We’ve got a small community, but apparently a pretty good one – and it’s not too busy to stay in the loop with things!

    I think you raised some good questions about The Time of Angels and Flesh and Stone.  How and why did River’s escape go down like that?  It raises a bunch of questions.  Idk if the guard she kissed was connected to her jailor or not, but either way why was she away from her jailor and why did she just teleport them in?  Idk just so many random things in this episode that either weren’t explained very well, or else were explained quickly and I missed it.

    I have been enjoying writing on here too, though I noticed sometimes I am watching an episode with the idea in the back of my head to be paying attention for things to write about after seeing the episode.  I kinda wish I could just watch the episode without extra pressure.  But I will try to keep it up because sometimes it feels therapeutic to discuss each episode and anything that stuck out to me from it.

    In other news I did renew my HBO Max, so I will continue to watch through the season 5 episodes as I am able.

    #73684
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @rewvian how are you 🙂

    I wanna start with phew , when I noticed my well notification I was in a bit of panic, was considering screenshotting the response to my friend and he could tell me if it was good or not but I braved it 🙂

    Just used to rambling to much and annoying people so its a nice comfort to have support on that side and not feel like the odd one out thank you 🙂

    Oh I understand what you mean its soo annoying , when watching Classic Who for example I really struggle to keep fucose and hear what was said and just like sense/understand what’s going on, I can find it really draining to get through Classic Who eps unless they just click with me like Kinda 🙂 , I love all Classic I just find it hard to process it especially the older ones like black and white and  re constructions and animations , always on the pause and go back button ha

    Find this really annoying though recently, our wifi has become a bit wobbly and I normally can fix that on laptop and get through Who or whatever but sometimes I watch on our T.V. to ease up enjoy the big screen but recently watching The Call or whatever it was, (I liked the adverts for it seen one ep a while back so thought its a small series I can do some of that) I gave up.

    I think I started somewhere on ep 2 then thought ah I gotta fully go through ep 1 and re fresh cause I think I missed a bit of it when it appeared on T.V. so I did that nearly lost my mind , the beginning bit in a call centre I know what’s gonna happen I’ve seen it before but I just wanted to absorb it all and got very confused what was being said and who was calling who ect just the beginning scene and each time I tried pausing go back a bit I get this little blub on our T.V. something is wrong ect ect and I have learnt to ignore that and wait till I can press back for that to go then the T.V. might start a loading symbol or get to the ep , its very stop and stall and lag and I quit something I thought I could breeze through and enjoy not far after the opening that I’ve already scene and know I must of seen nearly all of the first ep and somehow some of the second hahaha.

    I had a friend round recently 🙂 , and I have been trying to make him watch Who with me, he comes to my house soo rarely and it takes us ages to pick an episode we get 1 episode every few months so we have small progress so far ha so we talked about what to pick, got the Cybermen 2 parter after maybe an hour and then its you gotta concentrate cause I wanna make sure he is understanding it sometimes I wonder ha but then this whole wifi issue and each time it started crashing and sometimes we just had to re start the ep and try to go back to where we were bit by bit as it pauses and moves and like just wait for it to load a scene, even just played the whole beginning again while looking at YouTube on my laptop while we waited to reach the part where they have just left the exploding Tardis, we eventually gave up and just watched funny kids shows from the 2000’s reaction video and had a good laugh down memory lane 🙂

    Take Care everyone hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73688
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @oochillyo @rewvian The way I see it (unless I’ve missed something) – River was in Stormcage jail (which we never see in this episode, it wasn’t on the crashing ship, we do see it in a subsequent ep) for killing someone – I think the Doctor in his future (her past). She was released from Stormcage on parole (under the custody of the Bishop) to go undercover investigating Alistair (the owner of the ship that crashed). He had an Angel in the vault, River used her hallucinogenic lipstick to stun the guard and find that out. Alistair ordered his guards to shoot her. River recorded a message in the ship’s homing ‘black box’ to tell the Doctor where and when to pick her up, knowing that the Doctor would sooner or later find it. The Angel then caused the ship to crash in order to revive all the stranded angels.

    #73689
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @rewvian To go into a bit more detail – the sequence of events (as I see it) was: At some time past (in River’s timeline, but in the Doctor’s future) she killed a ‘good man’ (I think it was the Doctor). She was imprisoned in Stormcage. She was released on parole (in Bishop’s custody) to investigate Alistair, who owned the ship. She conned her way into a party on board, then stunned the guard with her hallucinogenic lipstick and found the contraband Angel in its vaults. Alistair ordered his guards to shoot her. River recorded a message on the surveillance camera asking to be picked up, the message duly reached the ship’s homing ‘black box’ which ended up in a museum (where the Doctor eventually found it 12000 years later) and ejected out of the ship to be collected by the Tardis.
    The Angel then sabotaged the ship’s drive to crash on Alfava Metraxis in order to revive/rescue the stranded Angels. The Tardis followed its track and landed alongside the wreckage. River then (presumably) contacted Bishop to join them.

    I did find it odd that the Angels were breaking necks instead of sending people back in time. I didn’t notice any explanation for this. But then these Angels didn’t seem to ‘freeze’ each other by looking at each other the way the ones in ‘Blink’ did. And they could ‘transmit’ themselves through an image.
    Suggestions – these were a different subspecies of Angel? Maybe they’d evolved to screen out the ‘freeze’ reflex when it was just another Angel observing them?

    Amy and Rory had been together for two years since the Eleventh Hour. Indications are that they were getting married more or less because they had no particular reason not to. I think Amy had some pre-marital jitters about committing to it. Then the night before the wedding, the Doctor reappeared and took her on some fantastic adventures. I think Amy’s fairly determined attempt to shag the Doctor was partly a ‘last fling’, and maybe more a reaction to having been nearly killed by Angels. Both of these are, I believe, not unusual reactions. I found it highly amusing, as was the Doctor’s bashful reaction.
    But anyway, Amy and Rory’s relationship did indeed get far stronger in subsequent seasons.

    Incidentally, I don’t set out to write lengthy reviews, usually something strikes me (in this case, the very first scene with the hallucinogenic lipstick, that was delightful) so I hit Pause and type a sentence on my laptop. DVD makes it easy to do.

    #73690
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @dentarthurdent Thank you, you made some sense of that whole plot!  I guess I missed the part where the angel had crashed the ship, and kept getting confused about whether the beginning scene was related to this Stormcage Jail.  I still wonder why she was allowed to act alone for such a big part of the mission.

    @oochillyo The living room television here gets weird connection issues sometimes and won’t play streaming things.  It happened today, actually.  It can be a bummer whenever you’re in the mood for some Who and want to sit in a nice chair to watch it.

    So I’m gonna jump right into my rewatch of The Vampires of Venice.

    The episode was most definitely better than I remembered, which I remembered very little.  In the last episode the Doctor wanted to take Rory and Amy someplace romantic to help out their relationship, so he settles on old-time Venice.  But it doesn’t take long for him to deduce something is wrong when he hears people talking of the Plague, which should have been over by then.

    The Doctor jumping out of the stripper cake was not entirely unexpected, and yet it was still worth it.  The early moments where the Doctor and Amy are running around and seeing “vampires” all over the place and getting giddy about it was a lot of fun, along with Rory’s feeling he’s the third wheel through it all.  When the boat-builder mentions his huge stockpile of gun powder and Rory moves away from the corner of the room I chuckled.  But when the boat-builder and Rory exchanged clothes I outright laughed, especially when I saw the boat-builder rowing the Doctor and Rory through the waters.

    There were more good moments with the Doctor putting his hands over everyone’s mouths so he could think, including having Rory extend his hand to cover the boat-builder’s mouth.  Also the boat-builder thinking that the Doctor and Amy were an item.  Then there was Rory and Amy going along with the plan to act as brother and sister.  There were plenty of laughs littered throughout the episode.

    The villain was the Saturnyns, barracuda or pirahna-like fish people.  They wear perception filters that hide their true appearance, and don’t show up in mirrors because the filter doesn’t know what to show there.  The Saturnyns regularly make their sharp teeth appear through the filter, thus seeming vampire-like.  I gotta ask though, why they make two teeth marks when they have several sharp teeth?

    Ultimately the plot of the episode is the Saturnyns want to convert human women into female fish people, and have them mate with the males who mostly all reside in the waters in Venice.  They plan on causing an earthquake and tidal waves which will leave Venice sunken, and provide a place for the Saturnyns to start a new city in.

    I kept wondering when the gun powder would come into play, and it wasn’t a disappointment.  Boat-builder stayed behind while the rest of the group left, to blow it up and take all of the converted female Saturnyns with him.  And of course no season of DW would be complete without the Doctor doing something related to heights and climbing a tower in the rain to stop some transmitter the villains left there.

    I’d say the Doctor shouldn’t feel too bad about letting the fish-people race die out since after all, they did forget Isabella’s name.  🙂  I don’t see why Amy didn’t just go around using her compact mirror as a weapon to slaughter the Saturnyns since that was pretty effective.  Amy was really brave and bold throughout this entire episode, right from the moment she chased after the vampiric dude without any concern for her own safety.

    Rory attempting to be brave seems to have been enough for Amy to have taken an interest in him again.  I find it funny how several seasons ago the motto was, “I don’t travel with families/domestics”, but now the Doctor has had this change of heart and seems to want to bring along his companion’s partner.

    I feel that this episode was meant to be a smaller one, but it had so many funny moments and played into the plot of saving Amy’s relationship so much that I think it turned out to be much more than that.

    #73691
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @dentarthurdent I recall at one point they mentioned that these weeping angels seemed to have devolved a bit, and lost some of their angelic appearance, which is why they weren’t so easy to recognize as weeping angels early in the two-parter.  Something about they had no energy to feed on, and then at one point they found an energy source and someone pointed out that a few of them looked more like angels.

    But I have no idea if the taking pictures thing applied just as well to the angels in Blink, maybe that did.  And the neck-breaking thing just makes these weeping angels look like stone-cold savages lol.

    #73693
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @rewvian As to why River was allowed to act alone, I presume she was out “on parole”. If she had skipped then she would become a fugitive, I assume the Galactic Authority (or whoever sentenced her to Stormcage) would then attempt to recapture her. As to why she neededd to act alone, it seems likely that she would not have been invited to the party on Alistair’s ship, or been able to slip away unnoticed to snoop into the ship’s vaults, with a platoon of armed ‘clerics’ in tow.

    As you say, the ‘image of an angel becomes an angel’ thing – and their consequent ability to transport over video links etc – is not incompatible with the ‘Blink’ story, it just didn’t chance to occur in that episode.

    #73697
    Rewvian @rewvian

    I watched Amy’s Choice and I’m pretty sure it has no thread so I’ll talk about it here.

    Basically the Doctor, Amy and Rory are in two different worlds, and keep falling asleep and traveling between them.  In one the TARDIS is hurtling towards a frozen star and freezing; in the other Rory has a ponytail snd Amy is pregnant, and their quiet town is being overrun by aliens disguised as the elderly.

    The group has to find out which one is the dream, and are tasked with this by the Dream Lord.

    It turns out that both realities are dreams and they end them by crashing a car and exploding the TARDIS.  Successful, they wind up back in the normal TARDIS.

    The source of the dreams is shown to be tiny gems that got into the TARDIS, but the presence of the Dream Lord remains uncertain.

    I liked the Dream Lord as an entity for the Doctor and his companions to face.  He is sort of like Q from Star Trek in a way, challenging them to solve problems thrust upon them.  I was disappointed he never showed up again. (As far as I know.)

    Much of this episode was interrupted for me by small children.  But that is about all I can think to say for now.

    #73701
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Vampires of Venice – like Rewvian, I’ll post my impressions here.

    Interesting that nobody makes any comment on Isabella or her father being black, I wouldn’t have expected Venice back then to be so cosmopolitan or enlightened, but then maybe they were. Or maybe the fish people didn’t care what colour their victims were.

    The Doctor popping out of the cake at Rory’s stag party – he really is ‘tone deaf’ isn’t he? I think he needs a nursemaid (and not a kissogram one).

    So the alien fish people are keeping Venetians under control by rumours of plague. Not entirely new idea but it seems quite topical these days.

    Rory reads the psychic paper as denoting him as Amy’s eunuch. Poor lad, lacking in self-confidence.

    I like the way the Doctor immediately teams up with Guido to investigate Madame Calvieri’s establishment.

    The vampire girls are certainly good-looking. “Tell me the whole plan. (One day that will work)” …and the Doctor was prophetic, one day the Chibs era will arrive and every villain will explain at length, no stopping them.

    Typical Amy, wanting to sneak into enemy territory. And Rory’s reaction is predictable. The Doctor doesn’t exactly help boost confidence – “Makes you wonder what could be so bad it doesn’t mind us thinking it’s a vampire”. How convenient that Amy ends up in a room with Isabella and all the other girls leave them alone to talk. But this is a minor niggle.

    Not sure what the significance is of Guido piloting Rory and Doc while wearing a “Rory’s Stag” shirt… (I just realised after scanning Revian’s comments, it’s because they swapped clothes so Rory could act his part as Amy’s ‘brother’).

    Turns out Madame Calvieri knows all about psychic paper – so she’s apparently an alien of some sort.

    It’s tragic that Isabella can’t tolerate the sunlight and gets caught by the alien girls at the last moment. And then fed to the aliens. That was shocking, I really liked Isabella.

    And then Madame Calvieri finds the Doctor casually lounging in her throne. Nice scene. I think this is the first time this Doctor has really seemed powerful to me. And we get a nice concise description of how a perception filter works, and the non-appearance of the aliens in a mirror (because the filter doesn’t know what to display) fits so perfectly with vampire legends – neat! And once again we have mention of the Silence (or is it the Silents?) and the cracks in space-time. Madame certainly has an attraction about her, but the Doctor is immune. “I’m a Time Lord. You’re a big fish.”

    Too bad the vampire girls are all now just alien fish wearing perception filters. Still, maybe that makes it less of a waste when Guido blows them all up (and, heroically, himself) – though I would have expected that much gunpowder to flatten the building.

    I’m not sure how an atmospheric phenomenon like thunderclouds is going to destroy Venice – or cause earthquakes, that’s a stretch.

    I do like the little touch that Carlo the sinister steward is strategically relocating with the family treasure.

    And yet again the Doctor is climbing something really high in a storm.

    Altogether a pretty good entertaining episode.

    #73703
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @dentarthurdent You made an interesting observation about this being one of the first times the Doctor seems powerful, sitting in the throne andvtalking to the fish person.  I’m not sure if I agree or disagree, but now I wish I could have noticed.

    I totally missed mentioning the Rory eunuch joke.  See, this episode was straight up funny!

    #73704
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

    I reckon there isn’t an ironically concrete answer for this ha 🙂 been wondering though about Weeping Angles, how do they move ?

    First of all I saw a clip from a review of The Angels Take Manhattan, I wondered if you lure a Weeping Angle into a lift, then cut the power are they trapped there ? especially like in Speed 🙂 if the lift is not in line with the room.

    Secondly how do they get around ? I dont think they can actually fly just move around very quick, can you image if one is moving and you look at it just as it reaches like a step and it tips over haha 🙂 that takes the word stoned to a whole new meaning haha 🙂

    Though I wonder if they cant fly in the vacuum of space how do they get around, I reckon they just take rides on ships from their original planet from that cool book about them 🙂 that could be why The Weeping Angle is on the Bysantium 🙂

    We dont know for sure if they can teleport through time just send others through time, the only evidence against are The Weeping angle in the graveyard that takes Amy and Rory and the ones in Village that teleport The Doctor as an angle.

    You could say the graveyard one just waited in that location for decades and Weeping Angles (in fact didn’t they Doctor say it was patient 🙂 ) are soo quick it just looks like it teleported in 🙂 and The Village one, only Doctor Angle is moved and its a very special temporary occasion powered by Angles and The Division which we are told are massive players in the universe and Tec Tay Un is living between Universes so has power enough to escape Universes and hold a ship between the no where place like the Void Ship 🙂

    Weeping Angles are affected by Gravity as seen in Flesh and Stone 🙂 maybe they could teleport away but didn’t have time to and were disorientated both by the affects of losing gravity and the crack after them 🙂

    I do think back to things the Tenth Doctor said about them, perfect survival mechanism, as old as time, you cant kill a stone maybe they just move about but can live well forever if they have power/energy to feed off of 🙂 just waiting like a Tiger for people to come to close 🙂

    When looking at my words I just thought, what if you place one in the sea ? especially if it really cant teleport away it would sink, they do feel pain and can be damaged and weakened, I assume they cant drown but throw them in the Mariana Trench the deepest part of the Sea on Earth 🙂 and I am sure they would be destroyed, the pressure there is soo strong and as I said Weeping Angles can be damaged like scratches ect just not like killed cause what are you aiming for I dont think they have a heart, (I wonder can they survive and re grow a head if its cut like angles have been seen to restore with power maybe 🙂 ) and I dont think they have like magic stone its called like a curse and I think the book about them it was a plague but I am sure its like normal stone ? so I am sure trap them in the lift, throw that down into the trench and you have rubble 🙂

    Take Care everyone hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73709
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @oochillyo So the Weeping Angels might be able to fly, if I’m going by the one scene in those episodes where the more humanoid ones transform and look more like angels again.  One of them had their wings spread, and I believe it was airborne.

    This of course makes the angels even more threatening because they could probably fly faster than they run.  And it creates kind of a plot hole for all of their appearances so far.  Maybe they enjoy frightening and toying with people so much that they usually use their legs.

    The Weeping Angels aren’t stone.  They only become stone when something is looking at or observing them.  So if you put it in this lift or the ocean, it would stay in stasis as stone, until the moment nobody is looking at it.  Then it would escape.

    #73710
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @rewvian 🙂 how are you 🙂

    Its soo interesting working them out 🙂

    they can break through things and opened that door that shouldn’t open, I wonder though could they break through rock if it was a strong rock wall, it’s almost like they have the Doctor’s Sonic as a power you know, can open any door but better then his none wood compatible version 🙂

    We have seen them get upstairs, so it’s amazing how none of them have miss timed the look of others, froze and fallen down the stairs, maybe they are more in tune at risky times, also in The Angels take Manhattan where I am thinking of the Stair scene they turn off the lights I think, and The Doctor gives up looking at them cause there is soo many from all sides he just runs with River so nobody was looking at them so maybe they glided or floated or anything up the stairs as we dont know the true form, even heard a review where he thought they might be like water substance when not looked at as the move soo quick and silently no footstep sounds

    I reckon if they flew about if others none angels are around, cause they can coordinate with each other it would be bad idea image some looks at it, its just gonna fall from the sky and maybe shatter or land on its back.

    I thought though and if its a religious thing perhaps like angles ect for these people we became stone, I read in a book I had about some mirror or something and they turned to stone and there is that plague idea, anyway we dont know their true form , forgot what I was gonna say, ah 2 things, might be more but lost focuse with family ;

    1 The Angles of old ect so they have been like this for billions of years the weeping form I reckon, still dont know if they can directly time travel that mirror thing I am sure it was some sort of Egyptian thingy so not sure how time line wise that could be the origin, how do they get from one time to another you know I just think they are like us stuck in the present in their present.

    So I was gonna say 1 The Weeping Angels have many forms if that blink cliff hanger is true, the Aplands are different and there is a Mother Stature and the Cherubs in The Angles take Manhattan I wonder if they can change depending on the situation ect like a digues or its the one they have become locked in since that particular angel existed, maybe each time they are not looked at they could chose to change The Doctor and River do mention the angles infiltrating the City of Manhattan so they must have been normal looking the ones we know and they fitted in to the area like the Cherubs, this also works for Blink 🙂 statues like seen in blink are common we had one similar in our Garden which freaked me out ha 🙂 then they hunt Sally Sparow and are in the grave yard then the Church like building they all fit the themes of the area and what kinda of statures you expect to find there 🙂

    Angles have wings maybe their wings dont actually work just what they are trying to fit in as and are well know as Weeping Angles so they can have wings, not all have wings but all are rock.

    I thought what if the wings are the more ancient version and recent times with humans making statues the Mother, the Cherubs, the big thinking guy at the end of Blink are all modern Angles or Angles who have changed to look like our statues now, think of ancient roman statues, statues in grave yards 1000 years ago, Egyptian ones, Roman ect there are lots of changes over time could be the Angles adapt too 🙂

    The Aplands are weakened at the start but are still angels so with full power they reform back into the Weeping Angles we know of , a maze of the dead, again like graveyard statues ect if The Doctor didnt know the Aplands had 2 heads you wouldn’t realise all those statues are actually Angles, I know 4th, 5th and 6th Doctor have had interactions with angles in books and Big Finish but in New Who only not wider media it was jus the 10th Doctor so far and they barley interacted with him , probs didn’t know he knew soo much about them unless Division breaks this ha and so I reckon like with anyone the angels in Flesh and Stone just thought people wouldn’t know the 2 headed Aplands they died out ages ago and maybe an ancient not well know people so they just hide as statures thinking nobody would notice 🙂

    2 What if its obvious all along , we dont know their form and they are incredibly strong or have sonic ish powers to open that door but when not looking maybe they are like wind ?? wind can be extremely quick or even just pure light , light is the fastest thing ever and if you break the sound barrier you create a big sound, we don’t hear an explosion or anything and maybe it’s just the wind outside cause the house has windows open smashed ect but its interesting in Blink when they move the angles leave a wind like sound behind them like a swoosh as if they just move as quick as the wind or like the wind metaphorically or actually something wind like, it could be they are soo quick the air around them makes a sound and the house being open to outside elements could be windy outside like it was in the night scene at the start, I will have to check their sounds when moving through the ep I do think in the car park its still that wind sound not the creepy wheel sound the sound when they move.

    Its strange if they are like wind how can they open that door, maybe wind like to move but strong something when not being looked at interesting whats happend to them if they really are people who have being cursed or a plague crazy powers they have evolved but it has been billions of years for them wow when you think all has been said about them we just keep finding more well done fans haha 🙂 I mean we did just get the Angle surviving the burning paper and dust going into the eye of Jerico to move him through time so who knows what they are still capable of 🙂

    Its mentioned in Blink maybe but I think in the Flesh and Stone 2 parter The Doctor says the ones in Blink were like scavengers , maybe running out of power ect the ones in the cave he implies are stronger , even thought most are drained who knows it might just be how much energy they have available to absorb gonna have to re check this  so far both are on the weakened edge or not very ruthless , Blink aim to get the Tardis mot really going through people unless in the way , I mean they could have started with Tenth and Martha and were gonna do their plan not after anyone else until Cathy and Sally got in the way, the maze angels are desperate to be saved and get power they are maybe dying or going dormant through lack of energy oh and in Manhattan the Angles are there to save the one in the collection but also realized Manhattan is perfect for them the City that Never Sleeps and the battery farm really boost them up 🙂 and they are just protecting the farm 🙂

    Think they are just trying to get to Trenzalor on the Time of The Doctor and with Jodie they are under Division, wonder whats gonna happen when we have a story where they are fully powered and focused on doing something mad with lots of numbers, they only wanted Jodie in the Village ep but had many numbers mmm lots of possibilities 🙂

    Wow who knew I could write soo much about the Angles you could say I really stripped the flesh off the stone 🙂 haha 🙂

    Take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73711
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @rewvian 🙂 how are you 🙂

    Ah yes I see your point about the sea ha 🙂 it got away from me hahaha 🙂

    Well whatever they truly are maybe they can drown in the sea if not in the stone form, you could still trap them in the cage which is hard to get out of cause the water pressure, Weeping Angles are very strong so let’s forget that for now oh and they can get past dead lock seals right, tough to trap.

    The Manhattan one was trapped in chains though so you could chain them inside the cage, also the easy solution is take the cage or lift with you holding onto it with the sea submarine that can go way down which you can see out of, or just weighing the cage down so it sinks and hooking up camera’s to see inside it as it goes down to keep the Angle there, there must be a sonic way to keep the cameras going and the submarine long enough, it would be crazy to have a weeping angle ep where its like the Ice Warrior just 1 on a submarine 🙂

    I just thought yes we have to go on what the show runner has given us but you never see Weeping Angles walk through water or anything, maybe cause they would sink but also water breaks everything over time, it wears down cliff faces as the Doctor say, I wonder if its normal rock could water damage work on them, wearing away at the stone and soaking them 🙂

    Soo many possibilities these recent posts and ideas have been a joy and really stepped up my love of the Weeping Angles and wonder of the possibilities they could still be fresh as meat in a stone fridge ha 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent 🙂

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