The Winchester

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb @thane16 @ps1l0v3y0u @nerys @whisht

Yes, the bushfires were fairly close – about 50km / a half hour drive away. We saw nothing until last Saturday when the sky filled with a light smoke, turning the sky orange-brown and the sun a vivid red. Something that would have signaled the end of days to those unscientific folk in times gone past. Maybe they’re right…

And now, the rains. 180mm (7″) in 6 hours just down the coast. Mass flooding with cars swept away and the Great Ocean Road closed while the SES (Emergency Services) try and deal with the deluge.  The winds are now whipping up, so Victoria is getting a battering atm.

Some interesting observations on music, both classical and more contemporary from the board here. Thanks to all. Seems my musical tastes are significantly different from most on here. This is a good thing imo as it gives me an “in” to find new (to me) material

@mudlark

IIRC this is the second Christmas in a row where you have had sad news or issues to deal with. Hopefully Christmas 2026 will be better. And great shout on Rear Window btw.

[syzygy @thane16]

Ooops that was @whohar too. And @ps1l0v3y0u @janetteb glad you’re spared, this time. The heat wave is impressively awful though.

I remember in the 80s with weeks of heat at C37+ & school letting us out at 11:45 with arvos at friend’s pools or a cheeky sneak into the back of cool movie theatres.

The kettle story is a great one. I had similar experiences in Hungary & the then Czechoslovakia with a few electrical issues & toilet paper violations …. 😀

@mudlark I’m so sorry about your friend. It sounds like you had a great relationship which began in such a funny way, as these often do.

I’ve had so many kettles blacking out our house that I’ve since boycotted the damn things (they are so expensive) & now use a tiny pot on stove which boils delightfully without all the nasty mineral ‘bits’ (how scientifically descriptive of me!) which appear in the bottom of the kettle & ruin tea.

Unfortunately my only visit to Winchester & accompanying sites was a half day (during which Thane complained of being hungry every 60 seconds). @mudlark were you part of the Winchester Excavation Committee?

Rear Window is a fabulous film. What did you think of Oppenheimer? I have a love-hate relationship with it.

I’m relieved your thrombo (can we just call it that?) hasn’t deteriorated further. I recall, when you gave me tips on soil movement & plant nutrition, that much of your gardening work had to be completed very slowly or else your back would chronically play up. The Wiki description also mentioned platelet sequestration…. had to look that up too!

Puro.

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u By george she did it!!

[nerys @nerys]

@thane16 Aaron Copland owes much to Charles Ives. It’s the whole “standing on the shoulders of giants” foundation and progression that is art. Copland’s music (the more programmatic pieces, anyway … not so much the avant garde ones from later in his career) do give a sweeping sense of Americana. Maybe it’s that sense of nostalgia that appeals to me so.

@whohar I’m glad that you were spared the worst of the weather extremes. I watch twice-daily safaris out of South Africa and the Maasai Mara, and also Africam fixed webcams. A cyclone has delivered successive days of rain. I’ve seen heavy rain there before, but not so many consecutive days of it. The Olifants River camera was washed away in the flooding. I have also read that camps at the Kruger National Park were evacuated. I don’t want to think about what the impact has been on humans and wildlife.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar what music do you like?
@nerys I’m with you on the avant garde of Copland’s music -it’s hard going!

are you interested in the music of South Africa, at all? I was thinking of Michael Mosoeu Moerane of the Bafokeng who wrote some fabulous choral pieces: his study of counterpoint, orchestration & open score dictation led him to create tonally distinct, polyphonic works, some in the sacred tradition.

But a lot of his music, idiomatic, & in the vernacular, was lost until about 8 years ago. As was the case with many African classical-style composers of the region.

Puro 🤗

[nerys @nerys]

@thane16 Sadly, I’m not familiar with any South African music. After university, I drifted away from classical music, for the most part. My only connection with it now is through band, and also through film orchestral scores. But, living where I do, I would have to travel for concerts beyond the local singer/songwriter realm … and I just don’t do that.

(Speaking of South Africa, they are going through severe flooding due to weeks of rainfall. It’s a bad situation for people and for wildlife.)

We did used to listen to world music more, but for some reason we don’t do that anymore. We did enjoy a concert by a a wonderful percussionist, Senegalese born singer-songwriter and performer Elage Diouf, and his band at our local arts centre. But those opportunities are few and far between here.

[WhoHar @whohar]

This is interesting from one-time Who director Peter Hoar. A potential Blake’s 7 Reboot, via his new prod company Multitude Productions:

https://deadline.com/2026/01/blakes-7-reboot-peter-hoar-matthew-bouch-multitude-productions-1236682580/

He also has some comments on the D+ Who era, as well as tv in general, and the need (or otherwise) for a showrunner / using other wirting models.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

You get the impression of people jockeying for position… but actually he’s making a general point that money doesn’t necessarily make shows better, and there isn’t as much anyway anymore!

‘Something went wrong.’ Really with Who and from a writing point of view, that’s only true of the season ends. The ratings are another issue, and it’s difficult to see how the show can continue without change.

Any other show would reboot. That is, reinterpret the ‘classics’. But Who is in a state of continual reboot. This is why continuity is a boon or a curse, depending on whether you’re a fan/writer or The Corporation. Was Disney and/or another streamer a way to duck the issue of preventing writers producing uncomfortable material? ‘We are no longer your paymasters. Talk to The Mouse.’

So, does that mean Russ/a n other is freed from control? Clearly not. Probably still under discussion. I’d like to know what Head of Drama Commissioning thinks.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Agree – he was saying it in reference to his love of the original Blake’s 7 which, as I’m sure you’ll agree, was shonky as hell, but very entertaining.  It comes down to story and character imo. The issue now is that, because SF is normally so seamless, that is the expectation for all shows going forward. I know people who bemoan modern effects in some shows (which do appear to have worsened, probably down to the SF companies now not being prepared to be vassals for the big studios).

I took his comments at face value and I don’t think he is positioning himself for more Who – he was probably asked his opinion. He seems to be moving in his own direction anyway, and I’ll be interested to see if a B7 reboot does happen.

Re: the writing. Technically it was OK (bar the finales which were, as you say, a dog’s dinner) but it just didn’t grab me as much as it could / should have. YMMV.

Any other show would reboot

Yes. And I think this is a problem for Who but I also think it may be the only way out from the continuity spaghetti. I’m not against it in principle, but if they do go down that route, it needs to be with a completely fresh team: no old showrunners, or writers, or friends of old showrunners or writers. Given the job he did with Andor, I’d give Tony Gilroy a shot. It would need a partner for the BBC though.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u @whohar (Delurking suddenly) I’m on the fence about a reboot of Blakes 7. And I say that as a past addict. I used to get dirty looks from my boss when I shot out the door at 4-30, I couldn’t muster the courage to point out it was only on Thursdays and it was so I could get home in time to catch a B7 re-run (first time for me) at 5.30. (This was before VCR’s became universal). Incidentally, the final episode was screened several weeks late and in a late timeslot, apparently killing a few people or having them go missing was okay but (spoilers!) killing them all was too much.

Anyway, if there is a reboot, I rather hope it’s completely different from the original, rather than just recycling old stories with better FX. Though frankly, the ‘better FX’ wouldn’t be difficult, I think B7 had the most painfully unconvincing guns of anything on television. And its model spaceships were fairly obviously just that, I think even Red Dwarf had better FX; what a difference a decade makes!

I have a theorem that up to a certain point, better FX really do help the story; beyond that point, they tend to take over and weaken it. B7 was definitely on the left-hand side of the bell curve in that respect.

I watched mainly for Kerr Avon, okay he was as ‘stagey’ as all hell, but Paul Darrow could carry it off. And there was some killer dialogue, I’m a sucker for sarcasm, irony and black humour. (I was also quite intrigued by the irony that, most of the time, there weren’t seven of them, and for half the run Blake wasn’t in them either. One could argue they weren’t even really Blake’s after the first few episodes, the rivalry with Avon lent a certain ‘edge’ to the saga.) It was a shade darker than contemporary Doctor Who, I think.

I’d forgotten it was invented by Terry Nation! The name I remember most in connection with B7 is Chris Boucher. (Um, the reboot is being proposed by a Matthew Bouch. Odd coincidence).

I’d say it will be interesting to see the results, if they get it done while I’m still around to see it. 🙂

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @whohar

I must have seen virtually all of B7 in the first run. I remember the everybody dies finale. At the time I assumed, whatever Michael Grade might say, that tv sci fi was going to look a bit rubbish compared with Hollywood. And obviously the writing was pretty consistent and good. Wouldn’t have known who Chris Boucher was now I realise he clearly knew his stuff and – can I say this? Happy NOT to be working with Tom, who apparently wound him up.

In hindsight… problems. How to reboot?

The Ship. Well, that’s fortunate! An alien trojan horse might be a more convincing scenario…

Disappearance of Blake. It’s called Blake 7 stupid.

They had a rubbish computer didn’t they? I mean it  was apparently a neat computer but so was K9. In need of C21st upgrade.

The resolution of deadly conflict in dystopia. Not saying ‘everybody dies’ can’t be done, but you do need Fortinbras and The English Ambassador.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u @dentarthurdent

everybody dies finale

Oi! Spoilers! 🙂

I’ll be intetested to see what, if anything, comes out of their new ProdCo. I think the trick with reboots is to make it sympathetic to the original, and have some common themes but not be enslaved by what went before. Seems simple but it’s not.

The Who that came back in 2005 managed it very well, although it had the advantage of cut through with the general public. i.e. almost everyone knows what a Tardis and a Dalek are.

Blakes 7? Not so much. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be attempted, and the lack of knowledge about B7 in the wider public may give them more scope. A new series of stories rather than a rehash of old ones is, for sure, the way to go.

[WhoHar @whohar]

And who would play Servalan? That’s key. I’d go with Ruth Wilson (who’d also make a great Doc btw)

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @dentarthurdent

Female Blake? Cyborg Avon? Canine Servalan??

I definitely recommend Trojan Horse Liberator… actually a Von Neumann machine, with brain wipe reverse isomorphic controls. Your dystopia has nothing on mine.

…. riffing on that, a Galactic ‘Pleuribus’ crisis, even? Canine Servalan develops disturbing (for the Telegraph) Rigellian pentasexual tendancies…

Annoying computer just churns out rubbish cat based AI: everyone believes/goes ahhh/giggles inanely.

I’m rambling…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar And who would play Servalan? That’s key. I’d go with Ruth Wilson (who’d also make a great Doc btw)

 

Excellent suggestions.

Reading the article I have hopes that if they do get funding etc they will do a good job. It won’t, can’t should not be the same but as you say the reboot of DR Who kept the important elements while giving it a contemporary feel. I was also thinking while reading the article that they might just have the right approach to DR Who as well.  Hoar did direct some Dr Who episodes.
I also liked that they compared Blakes 7 to Andor. There are similiar themes but I felt that Blake’s 7 lost the original vision a little. Andor followed that through to deliver a message that was accidentally well timed. (given that writing and production would have happened before TrumpII era.) Blake’s 7 started out with a political concept that would certainly chime well today. (before it became Avon’s gang in space)
And I love the models even if at times they are very wobbly. We watch a lot of old sci fi for Cult TV Club and it is generally agreed that the shows using models have aged better than early use of cgi. It is the same with the original Star Wars movies. The special effects hold up much better than the dodgy but expensive cgi of the following prequel trilogy.
And lastly, this is a long post but,, I loved Blake’s 7 when I was a teen. Watched it when it first aired on ABC. Bought the novelisations. Even have a couple of sci fi mags that featured it. (never let it be said that I am not a sucker for merchandise) We of course introduced it to our sons when they were growing up as well. I would love to see a good “reboot”. fingers crossed.
Cheers
Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u Which ‘rubbish’ computer do you mean? Zen, Orac or Slave? Probably the most interesting one was Orac, with the sarcastic temperament. Zen (shades of Hal from 2001) was taciturn. Slave was painfully obsequious.

@whohar @janetteb As for a reboot, I do hope it is a ‘re-imagining’ along the lines of Battlestar Galactica 2. (Which apparently old fans hated, calling it GINO – Galactica in Name Only. I never watched the old series, so I didn’t care). I think the original Blakes 7 was much constrained – even in its plotting – by budget and effects.

The relationship between Avon and Sevalan could certainly be – more developed. Back when B7 was made, just like with Who, any hint of s*x or strong romantic attraction was considered suspect. I’m absolutely not saying the ‘new’ series should have Avon explicitly leaping into bed with Servalan, an implication would be enough, or just a suggestion of mutual attraction; it was there in the original, I think, but buried so deep you’d need a metal detector to find it. It could, I think, be rather more along the lines of the relation between Holmes and Irene Adler in ‘Sherlock’.

As for who played Servalan, she would need to be a strong character, with considerable screen presence and sophistication and a hint of humour. After all, she did rise to the top of the (unseen) power struggle in the Federation. And mature enough to be convincing. Like Missie (no, I’m not necessarily suggesting Michelle Gomez for the role). Come to think of it, Lara Pulver (Irene Adler) could do it.

As for Avon – can’t reincarnate Paul Darrow? 🙂 Not sure who to nominate there. Blake would be easier, any action star would do. Interchangeable with Tarrant, I think.

I do agree with Janetteb that models probably hold up better than early CGI. Still, some of the early FX were a little painful – I’m thinking of the neutron blasters in B7, or the energy bolts from the Gods of Ragnarok in Greatest Show in the Galaxy. In the way of weapons, B7 was probably the worst off, they had some singularly unconvincing guns (surely it would have been easy and cheap to manufacture better, just take an existing real gun and stick a few extra bits on it); Dr Who (or so I think from a very tiny sample) tended to use real guns which stood up much better, I recall one ep where the enemy were using broomhandle Mausers with stocks fitted which looked quite futuristic in their original form. As for creatures and costumes, K9 was always painful, and the Cybermats were all too obviously little props being pulled along on bits of fishing line. I was going to include the early Cybermen in the painfully unconvincing category, all too obviously extras in silver overalls with boxes stuck on and humans inside, I would have thought that nothing could salvage them until the Moff’s genius made that very fact horrifyingly convincing (World Enough and Time).

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @janetteb @whohar

I am thinking ORAC. Don’t remember the others. Future AI will surely be inanity we’ve got used to or think cool for some reason. How long have people been saying ‘ooh no it’s coming for you… SO clever and snarky’ and I say ‘for them maybe’ and ‘why do you think that? Oh you spent a lot of money didn’t you? Cui bono?’

Seriously, The Liberator is a problem. Even on the original show. It’s like ‘my lord, I have discovered the purest Unobtainium! Let’s celebrate!’ That has to be rethought.

Was Avon actually a crook originally? He could be really sleazy and unpleasant. Servalan a very very obvious venal and self important stuffed shirt. Blake a hopelessly naïve idealist with dark secrets. For our time…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u Avon was a “crook”. they were all convicts being sent to a penal colony only Blake was falsely accused. don’t remember Avon’s crime. It was something corporate I suspect.

@dentarthurdent I agree that a “re-imagining” would be preferable to a remake, or a sequel. Blake’s daughter or son take up the rebel mantel. get a gang together, find the liberator. Have to have the liberator it was character in its own right, with Orac and Zen. Or maybe just Orac. Zen was a but painful.

A few years ago now, J.M.S. tried to do a re-imagining of Babylon 5. ( B.5 was originally inspired in part by Blake’s 7 incidentally.) It did not get off the ground. He recognised however that any attempt to ‘re do” the series needed new characters for new actors and a fresh take on the story. He wasn’t going far enough with that however, trying to just do a time reset and I don’t think it would have worked.

cheers

Janette

 

[nerys @nerys]

@janetteb A few years ago now, J.M.S. tried to do a re-imagining of Babylon 5. ( B.5 was originally inspired in part by Blake’s 7 incidentally.) It did not get off the ground. He recognised however that any attempt to ‘re do” the series needed new characters for new actors and a fresh take on the story. He wasn’t going far enough with that however, trying to just do a time reset and I don’t think it would have worked.

Interesting, as we’ve been watching Babylon 5 on DVD. We’re into Season 4 now. I had never watched it before. My husband is the original fan … but I’m enjoying it, too. I was surprised to discover how few of the original cast members are still alive.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys   @whohar

@ps1l0v3y0u Avon was definitely a criminal, and a computer genius – I believe he hacked the Federation banking system of millions of credits. They were all criminals except Blake, who was a dissident.

The Liberator was absolutely *not* a problem. It was a product of advanced alien tech. How many of the spaceships on Doctor Who are completely alien tech? Almost all of them, in fact. I wouldn’t describe Avon as sleazy or unpleasant. Calculating, cunning, the smiling assassin type, but never needlessly offensive. And Servalan was imperious, haughty, I’d never say a ‘stuffed shirt’.

Your impressions are almost the antithesis of mine.

By the way – Zen, the computer that controlled Liberator. Similar to HAL in 2001, though IIRC Zen never went mad.
Orac – the genius supercomputer in a plastic box.
Slave – the cringingly obsequious computer that controlled Scorpio, the ship they acquired after losing Liberator.

@janetteb They couldn’t ‘find’ the Liberator, it disintegrated with Servalan on board. After running through a clump of integralactic fungus that ate it. Incidentally, that was one big plot booboo – there was fungus and rust popping out of all the joints in the wall cladding and neither Avon’s crew nor Servalan noticed it. However, I guess Liberator had sister ships that a reboot could acquire, I agree it was too awesome a ship to dispense with. But any remake would absolutely have to have an Avon. Blake or his replacement Tarrant (ever notice how similar they were? – compared to Avon’s suave ruthlessness) were, I think, less integral to the series. Incidentally, how many of the original ‘seven’ made it all the way through every episode? I think, only Avon and Vila. I used to be able to name them all, and roughly when they arrived and departed. Gan was the first casualty. Then Cally the telepath I think. Then Jenna the pirate and Blake. Then Tarrant arrived, then Dayna the hunter, then Soolin the assassin. Anyone I missed?

I never watched Babylon 5, didn’t know it was partly inspired by B7. Another one I think probably owed something to B7 was Farscape – a crew of fugitives, being hunted by a military power, in a huge alien ship (Moya), having adventures along the way. I suspect though, that trope is quite common in sci-fi. It does lend itself to changing cast members on occasion as actors drop out or join. Farscape, by the way, was notable for wild plot twists, as some of their fiercest enemies in the Peacekeepers were deposed and sought refuge on Moya. (‘Peacekeepers’ – what a lovely name for a ruthless militaristic mercenary culture. Some cynic dreamed that up. A bit like the Colt .45 ‘Peacemaker’ – all very peaceful when you’ve killed all the opposition. I won’t even get started on the FIFA/Nobel Peace Prize… 🙂

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nerys I hope you are enjoying it. Our eldest started showing it to his gf. She was not initially impressed but it has grown on her. I watched it when it first aired. would sit up to late to record it on VHS and cut out the adds. It is part of the family culture, as much as Who and Blake’s 7.

@dentarthurdent. I don’t think I have even watched the later series. I certainly don’t remember seeing the Liberator destroyed. I suspect I ditched out shortly after Gareth Thomas did. I felt the show lost direction after that so I guess I am only half a fan.

cheers

Janette

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

You misunderstand. My character analyses were for a putative reboot for OUR time: crooks are creeps, ruthless dictators are also venal idiots, freedom fighters hopelessly naive. MY kind of dystopia.

I just think you could have much more fun with the idea of The Liberator. Could a bunch of polynesians have done nothing with an C18th sloop without instruction from at least some of the existing crew? Let us not forget Chib’s useless ‘Sontaran’s have three fingers’ running joke.

Ok. The Liberator’s controls are obviously telepathic… why? Why would you want a bunch of aliens take over your ship? Or is the ship actually taking over the alien crew?

As I say… fun.

[nerys @nerys]

@janetteb Initially I was like your son’s girlfriend. When my husband pulled out his prized DVDs and started watching them, I rolled my eyes and doom-scrolled on my phone, somehow seeing that as a better alternative. Especially when he saw fit to explain the whole backstory of a character or scene.

But, over time, the series has grown on me, and I am enjoying it. I am quite impressed at what they were able to achieve, both in terms of character arcs and special effects, given the time in which this was made.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nerys there are some pretty ropey special effects though good for their time, some woeful filler stories and dodgy acting from minor characters but the main arc and man characters are so good. It certainly has its faults but when is is good it really is “good”. JMS was also a Who fan and apparently wanted to get Tom Baker to do a “guest” appearance. He really pioneered the story arc in U.S. television. It just wasn’t done before the 90s especially in si fi.

cheers

Janette

[nerys @nerys]

@janetteb He really pioneered the story arc in U.S. television. It just wasn’t done before the 90s especially in si fi.

My husband has made that observation, and certainly it was not in widespread use at this time. Babylon 5 did a stellar job with its story arcs, and the extent to which they were carried through was groundbreaking. But there were other TV series that pioneered it. One that comes to mind is thirtysomething, which predated Babylon 5, running from 1987 to 1991.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys @janetteb

My bf was/is a huge Bab 5 fan. And I preferred DS9. Fair to say B5 gave late DS9 it’s raison detre… forgive the font. B5 gave Trek the excuse to be dark… and NOT gunboat politics.

Lots to grind your teeth at tho… I mean DS9 and not just the Ferengi episodes. The cast was mostly (but not entirely like) as many Patrick Stewarts as you can fit on the screen. Sorry TNG.

But I still can’t judge 5.

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