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5 May 2013 at 13:05 #7871
He seems the very definition of the ultimate desirable male ..
@scaryb and the doctor, sitting in a tree K – I – S …
;-D
5 May 2013 at 12:55 #7867@shazzbot – I must unbeknowingly having a lot of near death experiences then :-O
Anyway I didn’t say I was concerned by an amorous doc (at least – as long as he’s not in the vicinity). The opposite, in fact!
5 May 2013 at 12:53 #7864@scaryb – I thought the possibility was being left open in the viewers mind that ladyG blinded her own child deliberately to create the freak show exhibit Ada became.
If mr sweet looks phallic, I’d suggest someone needs to see a doctor about that…
5 May 2013 at 12:22 #7853@thedoctordude – good point about the chair, that fits well under the “mirroring” thread, and “Clara not acting until she’s been show what to do”. The latter is troubling though – does that mean she was awake all along (faking the fugue) and watched the doc smash her bell jar, noting the use of chairs for later? Does that mean she’s not alive, in the conventional sense?
Also, why did the doc not use the screwdriver instead of a chair to break the jar, or consider if sudden exposure to air would be dangerous for her?
I don’t think the doc kissing Jenny is of much significance. I’ll bet it was just written as “doctor acts exuberant”, they impro’d and the kiss take made the edit. Clearly not indicative of 2 docs, as minutes later he’s uncomfortable with the dominatrix costume, so the same person can clearly have 2 contrasting reactions.
The kiss is most implausible for me because of “Kung fu Jenny” we see minutes later – if a possibly alien possessed doc mad a sudden unexplained lunge for Jen, she clearly would have thrown him over her head first and asked questions later (would have been a great moment, but then spoiled the reveal when she drops her cloak seconds later).
@juniperfish – I don’t see much problem with contrasting paternal then frisky actions on he part of he doc; it looks pretty clear to me his default mode is paternal, but Clara’s persona brings the friskiness to the surface briefly, then he realises and feels all self conscious, because he’s all of innately awkward, slightly suspicious, trying to be a responsible warden and married – all to great comic effect.
And Clara, as is default for all strong Moffatt women, visibly delights in the effect she can have on him (if moffatt has a fault, it’s that he writes all leading women as vamps without fail. If he could just embrace the possibility that women can be confident but not necessarly sexually confident as well … You know – just like men can … he’d come a long way as a writer)
4 May 2013 at 13:40 #7716@ardaraith – I’m sure they’ll be some weak plot contrivance for it. Can’t decide if this means how they view each other is significant, or it’s just a device to ramp up the soapy interpersonal elements for a certain demographic – quantum-structured reality TV? Made In Metebelis-3? The Only Way Is Gallifrey?
4 May 2013 at 09:53 #7702@ardaraith – you’ve pointed out a couple of times the poignancy of Clara taking the docs hand as he grieves for the tardis.
@bluesqeakpip, you made me remember, the only other time I can think that happened was with rose as a grieving 9 told her he was the last of the time lords in End of the World.
@bluesqueakpip – a lot is made of the early hartnells dubious morals, but I think it’s more ambigious than that. I think the producers were playing with the audience with “can this weird alien guy be trusted?” exaggerated red herrings to put the audience in Ian and Barbara’s POV. As Ian and Barbara’s trust is gained, the hints all but evaporate. He did pick up the rock, there didn’t seem any obvious reason for it … But it’s not like he actually tried to do anything.
But He was a deeply paranoid man, on the run, doing anything to protect his granddaughter (possibly wracked with guilt for getting her into this mess in the first place)
Paranoia and misunderstanding of motive are rife in early who. Edge of destruction is like a claustrophobic Pinter play, and that’s not accidental. You could easily argue there’s a cold war intertextuality in the Docs eastern bloc kidnapping Ian and Barbara for both his and their protection.
Ian and Barbara were as much the first series focus for audience identification as rose was for the relaunch; theres a lot of parallels with the original and nu-who’s development of the Doctors character.
The thing that really annoyed me about 3rd rate minds like Micheal Grade is that he never got that the “b-movie schlock” of who is just a light, patina surface.
Underneath, people who went on to become acknowledged as the best writers (and drama producers) ever to work in British TV – Troy Kennedy Martin (edge of darkness) and Chris chibnall (broad church) too name but two – were being given a virtual blank canvas to flex their muscles and show off what they can do on calling card morality plays where no tension can be cranked too high, no emotion too OTT, no scenario too outlandish and with one of the biggest guaranteed audiences in broadcasting.
So, anyone who moans about my pointless sub-sixth form intertextual readings of “what is just a trashy kid show with zero depth. Get over yourself” – I used to get that continuously on the guardian and so that’s why I’m never going back – just has no conception of what’s going into it from the people on the production side; sometimes because they are fans, but usually because it’s a platform they can launch careers from and therefore they throw their all into it. TV is full of jobbing creatives, but dr who is just not one of them.
This is leaving aside that the whole of BBC Wales now has something to prove here!
4 May 2013 at 09:02 #7701@ardaraith @blenkinsopthebrave – “talking directly to camera” well there you go, old chap, you finally get the broken 4th wall. You were right my antipodean friend, you were right. Hope you don’t mind the mention on a spoiler (I don’t really think its a spoiler tbh)
Set in a dusty museum … Hmmm, just like the one in Summer Falls, do you think?
3 May 2013 at 19:27 #7679@htpbdet – when it suited them, TLs had complete control over the tardis – the CIA sending it where they needed the doc to do their dirty work. If they can do that, it’s probable they can check the logs if they want, probably remotely and certainly when it’s on gallifrey.
(Heck, these days earthly cars stream their logs continously back to the manufacturer, so for the tardis not to do so seems incredibly quaint)
It would be the first thing romana would do as soon as she entered the tardis, surely? I would. And Romana v1 was very much a woman who would ensure she got her facts straight. She was not a best guess or assume kinda gal.
3 May 2013 at 15:55 #7672@bluesqueakpip – i’m not sure about the “staying in sync bit”. When the doc visits “present day” we see it and the doctors visits are in chronological order along he personal timeline. His relationship with the Brig was chronological, in fact River is the only reoccuring character who’s appearances have been non-chronological, and even then actually “mostly chronological” with a blip at the start. Equally, why would the doc have to run from the pyramids from Mars to earth in 5 mins. He had all the time in the world – he’s got a frigging time machine!
And we’re not Timelords! At least … I don’t think so (checks chest for heartbeat and for pocket watch, just in case)
So what i mean is, his history seems to be overwhelmingly chronological, not just the interactions with Gallifrey and TL’s, with the odd popping back or forward.
Obviously that’s because of certain production constraints, but in the context of the show I think either:
a) it’s easier to avoid crossing your own time stream if you keep your visits chronologicalb) it keeps the doctor sane knowing his interactions with other people are in the same order he experiences them. Otherwise he’d go mad.
3 May 2013 at 15:42 #7670@htpbdet – I think you’re missing a crucial point re:age; the Tardis will have a very accurate log of how long the doc has been travelling for, being with him more or less continuously through his personal timeline (Tom Bakers first series excepting).
Romana and the Timelords would have access to that, once they have access to the Tardis (whether they were able to track him up till then or not), so you’d expect any ages they voice would be accurate. The Doc has access to the Tardis clock too, but I assume he can be bothered to look, care, more than happy to exaggerate etc.
2 May 2013 at 20:00 #7625@htpbdet – sir I take that challenge!
Personally I’ve always assumed the talons of Weng chiang was actually called Dr who and the highly magnified gerbils of death
Equally, castrovalva is best summarised as The Master baits a trap and comes to A Stick End? (Adrics BDSM is just the absolute cherry on the cake for that one)
Jon Pertwees finest hour was in Dr Who and the wobbly chromakey
2 May 2013 at 08:41 #7553Also, is it just me, or does Omega v1 look a lot like the angry metal brother of Bungle from Rainbow?
Also, his watches are rubbish.
2 May 2013 at 08:25 #7552Hmmmm … Since weve been talking about the doctor founding his own new gallifrey, how about this: omega, off in his own little anti matter universe emulates his erstwhile compadre Rassilon and founds his own antiM TimeLord society, where just like rassilon he’s venerated like a demi god?
When our lot escape the time lock, and omegas lot escape into this universe, well … there’s only one word for it:
Holy Time Wars, Batman!
Oh oh oh! And the DNA basis of omegas timelords (since omegas original body has been obliterated) is the doctors, acquired during arc of infinity. An army of doctor clones! (although the don’t have to look like him, they’ll have their own distinct faces as they regenerate). And as a little timey wimey cherry, Hartnells doc is actually a reformed omega-doctor clone – that’s his big secret. Omega is the Doctors Alpha…
😀
2 May 2013 at 08:10 #7551@bobbingbird – look, you guys just behave yourselves when the our friends the pigs finally start showing up on here. We know what you are like … 😀
2 May 2013 at 00:32 #7527Is there such a thing as Obsessive Posting Disorder?
Cos I appear to have a pretty bad dose …
2 May 2013 at 00:31 #7526Oh a passing thought I had – a little while back I poo-pooed the idea that the could mix matt/jlc into old footage because of quality issues in a HD world (@craig agreeing)
I did later thing of a get out clause – if they went all split screen 24 style, probably as a montage, the reduced size of each panel might just let them get away with it.
Maybe.
1 May 2013 at 22:35 #7518@htpbdet – replace kovarian with the GI or daleks or even a 3 way race to the prize race. All works for me!
1 May 2013 at 21:47 #7510@timeloop – awesome! Self-arbitration – my favourite kind!
1 May 2013 at 21:41 #7509@polaris – good spotting my starry friend! I hadn’t spotted that. We generally have a rule that “there is no such thing as a continuity error. (Except when there is, obviously)”.
But that’s such a major difference it seems really unlikely it’s continuity. They’ll have filmed all those scenes consecutively on the set, and there is a continuity manager* on set who’s sole job it is to play “spot the difference” between takes. Generally continuity errors happen when the editor nicks some frames from a completely different take because the fit is better with the beat of a scene (but this then overrides the continuity managers careful watch during actual filming). It just seems unlikely.
So is that a big hint that the Doc went for a wander somewhere part way through the story? I wonder what for?
* As a student I lived in a flat frequently rented out for film/tv production, which we loved because we got to live off free sandwiches from the production caterers. They’d leave scenes set up overnight and we were not supposed to touch *anything*. As if. We delighted in making the CM’s job a living nightmare by seeing what we could get away with moving that she wouldn’t notice in the morning. But that woman was amazing – she literally measured where props were laid out with a ruler every morning.
However one thing I did get away with – and I swear this in an episode or Morse somewhere – is we replaced a small family photograph with a picture of my penis with a pair of spectacles balanced on it. Literally didn’t spot my wood for the trees.
True story.
1 May 2013 at 21:27 #7506Sorry – Stephen Gallagher not Johnny Byrne (under the pseudonym “John Lydecker”, hence my John-based confusion)
1 May 2013 at 21:23 #7503@scaryb – note to Amy: please stop using Clara as notepaper. See me after class.
1 May 2013 at 21:18 #7501@timeloop – i think we need arbitration from someone who can remember the episodes. I swear I remember him saying that the swimming pool is in the library now. 😀
In Castrovalva (classic series) the doctor converted 25% of the mass of the tardis into energy to provide the power to avoid being sucked into Event One (The big bang. You know – the first one.). Chris Bidmead was obsessed by e=mc^2. Or as Johnny Byrne rather poetically put it: energy is matter set free.
Actually you raise a good point – how is he going to explain an live-and-kicking Clara to the gang? How’s he going to stop them saying “but you’re dead” to her (which can put a dampener on an evening)
1 May 2013 at 21:12 #7500@whisht – a fish. Obviously.
They’re the superior life form (sorry, birds. But you know it’s true.)
1 May 2013 at 21:09 #7498@miapatrick – interesting … with a slight modification, if I may? Actually it’s Amy who created this universe from her memories, and she’s the one still actively creating stories – she’s an actual, bona fide author!
But maybe every time *she* writes a story that includes Barnabus, the Doctor looses a memory?
I have no idea why that might be, though!
1 May 2013 at 21:00 #7493@scaryb – well I’m not, but doesn’t stop it being a crazy theory of your very own. A loop of regenerations? The mind boggles.
I just mean 11 ensures 1 and Susan set off on their journey safely. And invisible timey-wimey hand.
1 May 2013 at 20:57 #7492@davemorris316 – good point. Amy’s tardis is there too. Lets assume the doc keeps his valuables and mementos close by, whichever tardis he’s in.
The book is both valuable (because of what’s in it) and of sentimental value (because it’s his beloved wifes meisterwork they wrote together)
1 May 2013 at 20:51 #7488@timeloop – thank-you!
Only in the eleventh hour the swimmingpool is in the liberary because of the crash. It’s not like it is supposed to be like this.
True – but it has presumably remained there since then though (didn’t River fall into it when she was thrown out of an airlock?), ergo this could be an earlier Tardis? They are now pointedly different rooms – why is that important to point out?
One other clue – this tardis is infinite, whereas, as mentioned earlier, he had to loose 25% of it in Castrovalva (75% of inifinity is still infinity, but lets assume maths is not Moffatts forte)
1 May 2013 at 20:43 #7485OK I’m warming to this – if 11 is to hand over the Tardis, that implies we’re going to see the 1st, and some kind of Origin story. The docs memory we’ve established is getting hazy and swiss-cheezy, so there’s a good chance he won’t remember what he looked like when he met himself 900 years ago.
So what if the docs story is itself a paradox loop? The kovarian/silence/etc conspiracy pursue him all the way back to gallifrey 900 years ago (I guess we’ll have to open the time lock for some reason first), forcing him to flee with his grand-daughter (she just happens to be with him, he has no choice but to get her out of danger), in a Tardis that mysteriously happens to be at the right place at the right time, dropped off by a mysterious man wearing a fez, and is surprisingly easy for a first-time pilot to fly (even if he leaves the hand brake on). Possibly Kovarian etc frames him for some crime so neither he nor Susan can return.
1 May 2013 at 20:27 #7479@davemorris316 – yeah yeah yeah 😀
If we both thought of it, it’s probably right! Happy to share co-authorship …
1 May 2013 at 20:13 #7473@jimthefish @htpbdet – isn’t SIDRAT a wardrobe from IKEA? Certainly looks like one …
1 May 2013 at 20:09 #7470This meme must …. Ter-min-nate … 😀
1 May 2013 at 20:06 #7468If only Clara had been looking at the photo of River on the fly leaf cover of “A History of the Time War” … then we’d know for sure that it River she meant with “so that’s who … [the woman in the shop was]”. As it is, maybe she was looking at a picture of the Doctor (with his real name) …. pictured next to his wife…
1 May 2013 at 20:00 #7463I’m having a BOGOF sale on wacky theories today, BTW!
1 May 2013 at 19:59 #7462@htpbdet – re: changes to the TARDIS interior and why the doctor is “breaking in” the tardis, why the Tardis seems much more tempremental that historically she has been in the past, why its all alarmist ringing the cloister bell at the slightest provocation, why it doesn’t like clara and why he’s afraid to take it into battle.
Here’s a radical thought (you’re going to like this!): Hartnell didn’t steal a Tardis, 11 did (don’t ask me how or where from!), and eventually gives it to Harnell (or at least makes it available for him to think he’s stealing it). This isn’t a new interior, its the *original* interior, pre Hartnell. 11 is breaking the tardis in like a wild stallion, taming it with his 900 years of experience so inexperienced Hartnell can control it, meaning for the moment at least, there are 2 Tardii, with 11’s own tardis parked up somewhere.
The cloister bell keeps ringing because the Tardis hasn’t got used to the dangerous life the Doc leads yet. It still startles easily, and therefore can’t go into battle yet. It doesn’t like clara because she’s the first human it has met, so it’s suspicious.
It also explains why the ArchRecon doesn’t affect continuity – at some point it’s lost, or severly impared and reduced to redecoration duties only.
There are clues! The swimming pool is not – yet – in the Library. The St Johns logo on the door, not seen since Harnell. A large sort of podium above the central console, not seen since the first Harnell set (though this one spins like a carousel). No hat stand – he hasn’t “installed” it yet. It’s still powered by the Eye of Harmony, and not the Artron (?) energy that powered it since Ecclestone onwards.
Huge clues … in plain sight !
1 May 2013 at 19:58 #7461@bobbingbird – Amy + River + Clara = ARC. That. Is. Beautiful, my little, bobby, feathered friend. And @juniperfish – that ARC = ARK – that is inspired; that the arc/ark is about how the doctor saved a little piece of gallifrey start it again. If those aren’t in this somewhere they bloody well should be and Moffatt hang your head in shame if they are not.
I bloody love plots that are also puns, me.
1 May 2013 at 19:58 #7460@bobbingbird – ” the TARDIS not only takes the Doctor where he needs to go, but also creates what he needs to fight.” that’s an interesting idea! Maybe a bit too interventionist though. I was thinking this: in genesis of the daleks, the doctor doesn’t kill of the dalek embryos because they’re a force for good, civilisations that would otherwise fight join forces to fight the daleks. What the the opposite is also true; because the doctor faught their battles for them, they didn’t unite and they went on to fight each other after he went on his merry way? Therefore the doctor is unwittingly a force for evil. Maybe that’s how he’s ended up causing an endless, bitter war?
Maybe the question is actually a statement: “the doctor who started the war?”
@juniperfish “Pandorica … a goblin, or a trickster. Or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it or … reason with it.”
… Hmmmm well there’s a good case that from another viewpoint, “One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world…” is valid description of a house call from the Doctor …
… And “You’re a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.” could easily be a continuation of the above description …
1 May 2013 at 19:58 #7459@blenkinsopthebrave – I’m kind of thinking that the denoument is not about the answer – I suspect we will not find out the answer – but the question “doctor who” i.e. i think what moffatt might be about to reveal is not what the answer is but why the show is named after the question; why is the question important? It’s like 42 – to understand the answer, you first need to understand what the actual question is. I suspect it’s nothing to do with the TimeLock as the question predates it by 40 odd years, its something much more fundamental.
Like his the word for “doctor” came from the character, not the other way round. Moffatt has been cooking up an answer for this since he was a student musing on USENET.
1 May 2013 at 19:58 #7458@zaphod – mirroring between clara & doc in the show. Good one! I had put mirroring in the posters down to just artistic styling, but if its on the screen, yeah that sounds significant
1 May 2013 at 07:28 #7332@thebadfairyprincess @bobbingbird
Good call on River writing the History of the Time war! That makes sense of why its written in English. It means that her chosen profession is now meaningful – a plot point, even – not just random.
She could do it because she’s both a time traveller and has access to and the trust of the only first hand witness, the Doctor (and I suppose, the Daleks. I wouldn’t put it past her).
Producing such a work would make her career and probably take her from Doctor to Professor. Getting the Doc to talk through that stuff, was probably good therapy for him and how they became so close. Learning everything he did explains why River holds him in such high esteem to the point she believes the word “Doctor” is because of him.
And she knows his name, so could put it in the book, where the Doctor wouldn’t.
I think that’s a fit!
1 May 2013 at 07:07 #7331@bobbingbird @janetteb – surely Junior Ents Officer just implies Alaska was a cruise ship (so lots of humans for conversion) and Clara was – surprise surprise – basically a nanny?
1 May 2013 at 07:05 #7330@bobbingbird @blenkinsopthebrave “an idyllic, small seaside town surrounded by sea, a gloriously big river with dolphins and turtles” – sounds great. Where’s that?
1 May 2013 at 07:03 #7329@bobbingbird @janetteb – “change the course of who forever” not “change who forever”. Quite a qualified turn of phrase. What “course” does it have now – “Man wanders randomly getting into scapes and fixing stuff?”
Arguably the Key to Time in Classic Who was a course change, by giving the doctor a definite mission. Bits of Carmels tenure also implied he had an overall purpose/gameplan.
The whole “lonely god”/”legend” thread of nu who is arguably a major course change from classic who, as is “post time war”/”last of the timelords”. Arguably therefore, Moffatts “course change” is to simply ditch both and reset and we all seem fairly sure that’s what’s coming anyway, so that could well be all he’s referring to.
To me, “course change” suggests (as for all the examples above) a small change to the doctors motivations, but not to the formula of the show.
30 April 2013 at 06:54 #7230Due to its rampant xenophobia and ability to powerslide, the “Special Weapons Clarkson Dalek” is widely acknowledged to be the most dangerous knobbly pepperpot in existence. However, in practice it is rarely a danger on the battlefield because of its tendency to just start trying to do do-nuts while humming mid 70’s MOR to itself. It is recognised by it’s disctinctive battle cry of “EX-TER-MIN ………………………………………………………………………….. ATE!”
In most cases it can be disabled by putting into a permanent logic loop simply by showing it a copy of the Guardian with an article about cyclist rights in it.
30 April 2013 at 00:21 #7222The “Special Weapons Clarkson Dalek” btw, is the only dalek whose lower half consists entirely of weapons-grade stonewash denim.
30 April 2013 at 00:19 #7221@whohar @bluesqueakpip @Shazzbot @scaryb @juniperfish
Or talk enthusiastically about a powerful engine, where 2×4 cylinders are mounted at right angles along a crossplane crankshaft … such as the top secret “Special Weapons Clarkson Dalek” might do …
… Ex-tol-V-8 !!!!!!!!!
30 April 2013 at 00:08 #7219I think TV Offal will always have the final word in Dalek alternative lifestyle choices. Apologies in advance …
29 April 2013 at 14:52 #7155@jimthefish – where’s the cup holder? 😀
Actually, didn’t we once see the masters tardis uncamoflaged in the pertwee era? The one in Atlantis where the baddy turned out to be a chromakeyed pigeon.
Just a white dome I think?
Thanks for everyone putting me straight on infinity and gantries. I especially like @bluesqueakpips point that a dangerous gantry is just another tardis ploy and @thommck‘s “infinite configurations, not space”. Both very very plausible!
29 April 2013 at 08:37 #7131Don’t even get me started on why is there an open gantry going through such dangerous space as the eye, rather than a sealed, shielded tunnel, or why it’s so easy to fall through the banisters.
The bridge crossed by giant fans in the End of the World is equally fatuous. I though after Galaxy Quest, this kind of weak jeopardy injection had been thoroughly lampooned into history!
29 April 2013 at 08:23 #7130@janetteb @whohar – I actually agree that the doc said ‘infinity’ in the casual, careless sense of ‘oh, endless’ or ‘everyone’ or ‘I walk in infinity’.
However that’s specifically what bugs me: it’s careless writing by someone with a poor appreciation of what infinity implies technically, I didn’t believe the doctor as an engineer/physical scientist would say that, at least without modification (eg ‘nearly infinite’) or self correction (‘infinite. Well not really, but might as well be, you know what I mean?’). It’s too engrained.
Basically, it comes across like this:
29 April 2013 at 08:06 #7125@whohar – yeah I toyed with the idea he’s using a different tardis mid episode when it seemed it had been destroyed. But the doc seemed so genuinely distraught at being unable to save an old friend that I was forced to conclude this one is his, the one idris resides in.
Marked difference to the bombshelled but not grief struck way Davidson behaved in Frontios, btw. The relationship with the tardis has clearly evolved since then (meeting iris helped?). I’ve suggested the doc was/will be overcome with guilt if he lost Clara but actually it’s probably dwarfed by his feelings about loosing the t-box…
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