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  • #7024
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

     
    !!!Spoiler speculation about series conclusion!!!

    Just been mulling overnight about the things Moffat has recently said.

    First – he said that no one had guessed the secret. Well, we know he lies, so perhaps someone has…

    Second – he said that filming for the final episode had only been completed recently – making me think that Tennant might be in that final scene. Perhaps Hurt too.

    And he has said that whatever the big secret is, it is game-changing, will be something we have never known before.

    So, I am starting to seriously wonder if it is going to turn out that the Doctor really is responsible for creation of the Daleks.

    And actually, when you think about it, it’s a fantastic idea.

    The Doctor (very young) is on Gallifrey, bored and irritated by Time Lord ways. So he goes on a joyride in a TARDIS – lands on Skaro at a point very early in the Thal/Kaled wars, maybe they have not started. Perhaps he sides with the Kaleds and believes them when they say the Thals started it – because he is young and inexperienced. He is naive and so does not establish where he is or who he is helping or, really, why. He perhaps tries to bignote himself, make himself popular. He helps them – gives them a secret which does one thing (maybe even the secret to time travel?) but also unlocks nuclear power (or something similar) and they use what he has given to devastate the planet and the cycle leading inexorably to the creation of Davros’ Daleks begins.

    But before that happens, the Doctor realises his error and tries to fix things but is laughed at and ignored as the Kaleds rush for victory. Defeated, he runs away, dematerialises and calls for help ( sends a Time Cube), gets rescued, lies about not interfering and is reprimanded by the Time Lords ( perhaps aged by a 100 years or some other timey wimey punishment)  and returned to the Academy and kept in after class (or the Time Lord equivalent).

    He is watched, but he seems to settle down.

    Eventually, he runs away, stealing the Type 40 and, with Susan, travels the Universe, determined to explore and right wrongs.

    When he eventually arrives on Skaro, with Susan, Ian and Barbara, he does not recognise it – and neither does the TARDIS because when he was there earlier he used a different machine. He has that first adventure. For there to be any semblance of continuity, you have to take the position that Genesis occurs before Dead Planet ( at least as far as I can see) and accept that the Dalek Emperor/ Davros  schism happens before Dead Planet too. The first three Doctors encounter Dalek Emperor Daleks – it is not til the Fourth that Davros and his Daleks are encountered. And thereafter, the Doctors only meet Davros Daleks mostly.

    In any event, the Doctor does not know he caused the creation of the Daleks. But you can imagine how he might fall on Trenzalore if he is asked questions which he must answer and he or others find out what he has done…

    There is a lovely symmetry too with Genesis. The Time Lords send the Doctor to, effectively, destroy the Daleks. It has always bothered me that they did that. But, it is more understandable if the Doctor was actually responsible for them existing to start with. They just want to fix the mistake he made – but in their typical “lily white hands” way, don’t tell him everything.

    It also means that the references over recent years to why the Daleks will not kill him, why he is worse than them, why, even, they turn to him for help in Asylum, take on a different light. River’s challenge to the Dalek in Big Bang also takes on a different light.

    The Doctor has always been inextricably linked with the Daleks – how remarkable if he has been hiding this secret, a secret which he could easily have learnt for the first time during the Time War.

    Trick or trap, Clara does not know who she is. JLC has said that Clara has travelled with the Doctor more than we have seen – which, if true, seems to make her the TARDIS’ soul inside either Susan or Jenny or some other construct but cloaked as a human. Or Mary Poppins.

    We seem to have three mysteries in this arc: what is the Doctor’s secret? Who or what is Clara? And why is the Doctor forgetting things? (A fourth might be – what is the Great Intelligence up to?)

    He might be forgetting things because someone is trying to help him, so that when he gets to Trenzalore he can’t reveal a secret he has forgotten.

    Clara seems to have remarkable powers for an ordinary girl, and Journey establishes the range of the TARDIS’ creative powers. She is certain to make him remember – in much the same way Mary Poppins makes Mr Banks remember the joy in life that he had lost.

    Moffat has repeatedly described the Doctor as ” a mad man with a box”. Perhaps he means it. The Doctor is slowly going mad because of the burden of what he knows about his hand in the creation of the Daleks?

    I can see too an alternate time line scenario, where the Doctor does become a Dalek post Asylum – feeding into the notion that he has come full circle, become the thing he caused to exist. He made the Daleks happen, only right he should join their ranks.

    So, that can happen. But Journey shows us, clearly, that altering a time line can have retrospective effect ( the photograph shows that). So the Doctor can both become a Dalek and deal with the consequences of his initial actions properly ( with a little help from himself perhaps ) so that he never does.

    Whatever happens, I feel optimistic – with the advent of Clara, the series is on a roll and looks like it is just going to keep on rolling…

    #7138
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    *******spoiler discussion ****************

    well, maybe not….it’s an interview that has been published…but still……

    *********might be spoiler**ish**********

    @htpbdet – I really enjoyed your storytelling, and that narrative really could work.  The interview where Matt and Jenna drop little hints came up on my newsfeed a few moments ago.  I am struck by something they say:

    Matt:  “It focuses on a pivotal moment in the Doctor’s life and the life of his companion. It’s a complete game changer and it all starts now.”

    Jenna:  “There are little bits and pieces, which Steven [Moffat] planted a couple of years ago. It’s … a crucial moment in the Doctor’s life that you get to explore,”

    The tone of that feels very much like a story about “why” he is called ‘the Doctor’, as opposed to any other moniker he could have come up with.  I’m struggling to remember any hints in previous episodes.  The Master has a conversation with him about this very topic, but I can’t recall what is said.

    #7139
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @ardaraith

    You are very kind. 🙂

    That quote made me think – more than ever – that the finale is going to be about why the Doctor left Gallifrey with Susan.

    Journey has made me worry slightly that River is going to be Susan’s grandmother and that because the Doctor marries her in his future, somehow that defines or redefines his past.

    The way Smith couches it “and the life of his companion” seems to indicate its not about Clara. River then?

    I don’t think there are any hints in previous episodes about why he is called the Doctor. There is discussion about whether he is a Doctor of medicine but not why he is called the Doctor. Just as there is no discussion of why the Master is called the Master.

    We have known since at least Edge of Destruction that Susan wanted to return to Gallifrey but the Doctor would not/could not return her. I always thought she wanted to go back to her parents or to find out what happened to them – but that the Doctor knew and wanted to spare her that.

    As to what the “little bits and pieces” are – who knows? But I do wonder if that conversation about who taught River to fly the TARDIS might be one of them and River’s suggestion to the Dalek to check its records about who she is.

    #7231
    janetteB @janetteb

    @htpbdet (&S) I always assumed that it was  the Doctor who taught River to fly the TARDIS, with a little help from a manual maybe. There must be one in that fabulous library. I also suspect that River spent quite some time in that library researching for her Ph’d maybe, and just maybe, as has been speculated by one of the great minds on the other threads, (sorry I don’t recall just who and there are far to many pages to scroll through to check) she wrote the Time War history. That is what led me to conclude that somehow Clara was River pre her regeneration into Mels. Not sure how to make that theory fit into everything else though. Taking a lot of jiggery pokery.

    Cheers

    Janette.

    #7245
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @janetteb       She says she was taught by him in Pandorica Opens but there is also this exchange:

    AMY:How come you can fly the TARDIS?RIVER:Oh, I had lessons from the very best.DOCTOR:(smug)Well, yeah.RIVER:It’s a shame you were busy that day.

    from Time and the Angels.

    Might be nothing.of course.

    On a different topic, there is also this from Pandorica:
    People fall out of the world sometimes, but they always leave traces. Little things we can’t quite account for. Faces in photographs, luggage, half eaten meals… rings… Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely. And if something can be remembered, it can come back.
    Much has been made of the Doctor erasing himself from history so that people forget him. But, of course, that means there will be traces, a footstep in the sand, something that will let others remember him .
    I wonder if that is what the Great Intelligence is up to? Filling in the dots? Finding the Doctor, working out what he is and was?
     

    #7252
    janetteB @janetteb

    @htpbdet I think she was teasing the Doctor in that exchange rather than being strictly truthful. I suspect seh would say almost anything to make a dent in that massive ego.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #7253
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @janetteb    Yes, you are probably right.  🙂

    #7255
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    In other news, I am sure you all know this, but I was reminded by my nephew that

    Clara Oswin Oswald

    is an anagram for

    A Window Across All

    #7258
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @htpbdet – That is a new anagram, at least from what I’ve seen!! “A window across all.” How poetic.

    #7260
    janetteB @janetteb

    @htpbdet I haven’t heard the anagram before either. I rather like it. Clara as a window, for the Dr, on the Dr, on time? IT works in many ways.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #7261
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Yes, its interesting isn’t?

    Especially when you look at the poster for the final episode…

    The TARDIS is a window across everything…

     

    #7262
    Anonymous @

    @htpbdet — RE. anagram. That’s interesting. I like that.

    And thanks, by the way, for the research on the War Games. You’re right, it’s the row of SIDRATs that I’m (mis)remembering probably. It’s a little overlong but I love that story. One of my favourite Troughtons – and a great last couple of episodes. One of my most fondly remembered Target novelisations too…

    #7409
    Lula @lula

    General question about the BBC–how locked down are they, as far as casting announcements go?  Being in America, I learned about Matt Smith stepping into the Tardis via Twitter, the day it was publicly announced–same for JLC.  Similarly, I also learned about Tennant’s departure on Twitter.  Social media is a powerful thing.  (I will say that I’m 100% certain the official announcement of the 12th Doctor will make all entertainment newscasts in America, as the show is far more famous here now than it was 4 years ago.)

    As of last night, friends/acquaintances on Facebook/Twitter/Tumblr are pulling the, “I have a friend at the BBC,” or “A friend of a friend works at Cymru Wales…” and announcing TREMENDOUS spoilers about the 2013 Christmas episode.  Namely…the title of the episode and casting of the 12th Doctor.  It all sounds legit–to my horror, because I can’t think of a non-Eleventy piloted Tardis right now–however I’d be tremendously surprised if such spoilers are actually leaking out in this manner.

    I guess what I’m asking is…are these types of rumors just that?   Fan speculation disguised as, “I heard…” and “I have a source at the BBC who said…”  I’m really unfamiliar with how secure things are with the BBC.  Would like to think that anyone working in any capacity with the show would keep their mouths shut, but I know how human nature works.

     

     

    #7425
    Anonymous @

    Hi @lula – funnily enough, just earlier today I was reading a press release from when Matt Smith was originally signed, and it said he was committed to 3 years with an option for 2 more.  My first thought was, oh no, it’s been 3 years already …

    But then, contract details can change – his salary certainly did! – so who’s to say he isn’t locked in contractually for more years now?

    Does your friend who says “I have a source at the BCC” actually know someone in Britain who works at the BBC?  Or at BBC America?  Is that why you say ‘it seems legit’?

    Personally, I think it would hysterical if someone picked up something on the internet which was based on one of the bonkers theories on this site, and in true internet Chinese whispers fashion it ended up being ‘My BBC source says …’

    #7428
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    ******Spoilers ********

    ***spoiler space **********

    ******Avert Glance *****************

    seriously……………

    Whew.  Hopefully that is sufficient space to prevent anyone peeping, who doesn’t want to peep.  The DW mag seems to have some juicy spoiler gossip about the finale.  eep!

    Every journey taken by a time-traveller tears a wound in the fabric of reality, and the Doctor has time-travelled more than anyone. But the trail runs cold in Trenzalore, the one place in all of time and space that he should never go. The most dangerous place in the universe… Who is kidnapping the Doctor’s friends, leading him to Trenzalore? Could the Fall of the Eleventh be nigh? Or does an impossible girl hold the key? The Doctor’s past, present, and future lives are in grave danger… and his greatest secret is about to be revealed.

    also

    THE DOCTOR: “The path I carved through time and space, from Gallifrey to Trenzalore. My own personal time tunnel, leading back to every moment I ever lived. Every step, every tear, every kiss. Even the days I haven’t lived yet. Which is why I shouldn’t be here. The paradoxes… very bad…”

    They additionally confirm that someone does die, and that there is more snogging and we definitely learn Clara’s true identity.   Things that make you go, Hmmm.

    #7429
    Foion @foion

    ****Spoilers***

    well, we’ve all seen it, but as it might hint at future stuff

    *spoilers*

     

    I dont know if this is the right place for it, but its something thats just been pointed out to me – and might be related to the finale

    http://lumos5000.tumblr.com/post/49216020408/look-at-the-tree-no-seriously-look-x

    i’ve went back and checked the actual ep (TRoA 2:55 – 3:01) and its not shopped

    #7434
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @lula   At the moment, the BBC is in a very bad place. It is going through a lot of change and there are very many unhappy people.

    Unhappy people tell tales.

    Equally, though, people claim there has been a real schism in the DW production team over Caroline Skinner’s departure and her alleged sacking by Moffat following an alleged affair between the two.

    The easiest way for Moffat to stop real information being leaked is to ensure false information gets leaked. It would not surprise anyone, really, if the Special was called The Twelve Doctors or The Twelfth Doctor – but that does not mean a regeneration. The Next Doctor proved that.

    On the other hand, there has been no official confirmation that Smith has signed on for a further season. Or Moffat for that matter. But there has been official confirmation of JLC.

    It would be a coup if Moffat managed to pull off an unexpected regeneration – that will be a game-changer – it has never happened in the history of the series.

    And there is a deluxe regeneration book/dvd set coming out this year, so it would not be remarkable if Smith did regenerate, but in the Anniversary special.

    On the other other hand, Smith could regenerate at the end of Name of the Doctor or perhaps be pushed back in his timestream into John Hurt (say) playing Hartnell’s doc and then regenerate/revert back. It will be timey-wimey whatever happens.

    And you are right – people who work at the BBC are telling stories – I have heard them here – but it is impossible to tell what is kosher and what is not.

    River may well die in the finale – but she will be restored – otherwise Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is thrown into disarray.

    #7435
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    ******Spoilers ********
    ***spoiler space **********
    ******Avert Glance *****************
    seriously……………
    @htpbdet – However, if the GI is involved, and that entity is familiar with upload / download….. it leaves plenty of room for River to be brought back from the Library in order to properly die.  Which, I suppose, is needed for the show to move cleanly on.  Otherwise, you will always have people discussing the Doctor’s  ‘wife’.

    #7436
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @ardaraith    Yes, quite right. If the Doctor is taken over by the GI, or they get his memories and they take over the TARDIS, they could easily go and download River from her “resting place” in the Library – and then kill her.

    Sure.

    Indeed, a while ago, when I was thinking about the GI tracking down the Doctor’s companions and removing his memories by taking them out of his timestream, I wondered if removing River from the Library would effectively erase her – I decided it wouldn’t. But it might mean that River could die and still make appearances in the Doctor’s timeline – just ones that had happened to her before she met Tennant but have not yet happened to the Doctor.

    #7437
    Lula @lula

    @Shazzbot–the “information,” (I use that term loosely) is coming from people claiming to work at the BBC offices in Cardiff.  And the level of information seems very detailed–hence, my deeming it legit, or rather, sounding legit.  Because if not,  someone has a very, very big imagination.  The past 48 hours alone have been filled with reports coming from “BBC insiders” (I don’t know if that’s in London or Wales or…), claiming to have immense knowledge of the finale, the 50th special, and this year’s Christmas episode.  This all goes back to why I’m asking about the security of the BBC–because I’m quick to write off these rumors as mere rampant fan speculation–as you said, true internet Chinese whispers.

    I hedge between Matt Smith staying on for the 8th series and being certain he’s going to regenerate in the Christmas episode.  (A rumor I’ve read is that he’s agreed to stay on another year because they’re giving him an episode to direct.) Really hope he takes the 2 year option, though, because I never thought anyone would replace Ten as the Doctor…and yet…Eleventy has truly become the Doctor for me.

     

    #7440
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @lula     I don’t think there is any way the BBC would permit him to be a first time director on Doctor Who –  really cant see that.

    If I were him, I’d go at the end of the Anniversary Special – there will never be a high as big as that for the series – and it will ensure his place in history. Anything after that is going to be a let down. There has never been a fuss about an Anniversary episode as the fuss about this one.

    And if series 8 of Nu-Who starts with a new Doctor and Clara/Susan – it means all bets are off – the series is looking backwards and going forwards. Especially so if the secret revealed in the finale changes our view of the Doctor as Moffat claims it will.

    We will see.

    #7443
    Lula @lula

    @HTPBDET — Well, then…this puts a new color on the entire situation!  I knew of Skinner’s departure but thankfully the rumors about her and Moffat haven’t reached these shores.

    I have heard that the Christmas special is to be called “Twelfth Night.”  Which means nothing, really, as you stated.

    It would be a coup if Moffat managed to pull off an unexpected regeneration – that will be a game-changer – it has never happened in the history of the series.

    Agree 100%.  And while I’d be supremely sad at losing Smith, it would be rather exciting for this to happen.  I will point out, though, that JLC’s involvement in AotD was a massive, massive surprise.  Speaking only for myself and my group of family and friends, that is–none of us knew she’d be in that episode, and we were very shocked the secret was kept by media and bloggers who saw the episode via advanced screening.  (I’m certain fans in the UK knew beforehand–but we Americans were kept completely in the dark–which I loved.)

    I’m sad to hear that the BBC is in a bad place.  BBC America is so popular here now, and I’d hate to think of it becoming the UK’s version of NBC, which is essentially a national punchline for us.  “NBC, where shows go to die!  I do not publicly rant against NBC because one of my dearest friends actually won The Biggest Loser (don’t know if y’all have that in the UK–it’s a weight loss competition) a couple of years ago, and I was actually in the studio audience in Los Angeles for the filming of the finale.  It would be unkind of me to mock the network that she starred on for a while.  But yeah…NBC is a big ol’ UGH over here.  I don’t wish that upon the BBC.

    Oh, I hope River doesn’t die in the finale–or whatever people are guessing about her, and I know we’ve all heard rumors/seen set photos.  The character is polarizing, yes, but I am such a fan of Kingston.  I’m thinking it will be more like Strax or Jenny…which would also sadden me, but I could handle their parting much easier than River’s!

    #7444
    Anonymous @

    @Foion – thanks for posting that picture link.  I’m ever-amazed at the attention to detail people have when they watch this show!  And it certainly fits in with many of the theories people have posted.

    @HTPBDET – the more I read of Moffat saying our heads are going to explode at the-thing-we-never-saw-coming, the less that hyperbole moves me.  On one hand, now that I’m fully assimilated into the bonkers theories world, it would be hard to astonish me with whatever he comes out with; on the other, the inclusion of JLC in AotD was preceded by a complete news blackout.

    I get the feeling that he’s doing more of a PR push every time he comes out with that kind of talk; but honestly, as you said this anniversary year is already huge so it’s a bit off-putting that he thinks he needs to reel in a fanbase, and casual viewers, that strongly.

    #7446
    Anonymous @

    @ardaraith

    @HTPBDET

    The GI in BoSJ could only download people who had a physical body to return to.  Where’s River’s?

    #7448
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    ******Spoiler**********by golly I need to figure this out………………………………..

    ………….How do you prevent the text from showing in the activity feed!  grrr

    ……..

    ****eep ***** avert your eyes

    ****do not look *****

    @Shazzbot – this from the DW mag:

    ……..

    Richard E Grant is back as Dr Simeon (“Hello again,” says the Doctor. “How’s the Intelligence – still Great?”)
    Post-Library River Song returns (“Oh, I do like to watch a man think; it’s like watching a whale knit!”).

    #7449
    Anonymous @

    @ardaraith – what/where is the DW mag?  online blog / fan forum?  BBC?  or something else?

    #7450
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @Shazzbot – the Doctor Who Magazine

    http://www.drwho-online.co.uk/dwm/

    #7473
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @jimthefish @htpbdet – isn’t SIDRAT a wardrobe from IKEA? Certainly looks like one …

    #7508
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @shazzbot.   In Bells, the GI did not want to keep the minds assimilated. Kizlet said that if she downloaded some of the human consciousnesses that had been harvested they would die – presumably because the body had been disposed of.

    The GI could absorb River’s consciousness – and if there was a time when River was there the Doctor could download her stored memory into her body. She might have a headache though…

    Or he could create a new form for her somehow into which to download the consciousness.

    There will be a way.

    #7511
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @htpbdet – like a flesh body

    #7516
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @ardaraith.   A flesh body needs a real host though…

    #7522

    Re further up the page: it is pretty clear from LKH that the Tardis taught River to fly the Tardis (a lesson from the best)…

    #7624
    Zaphod @zaphod

    here be spoilers….

    **************************************

    here be spoilers….

    I think.

    I just saw this on Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/ryanfarrr/status/329999983665377280/photo/1

    https://twitter.com/ryanfarrr/status/329999253239889920/photo/1

    (I hope this works)

    So 1 or atleast a visit to previous companions ?

    #7629
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan She lied. She says the Doctor taught her when he accuses her that she is flying the TARDIS wrong. Right before the Doctor is locked into the Pandorica

    #7700
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    From the Radio Times, so technically ‘news’ but I’m putting it here to avoid offending the shoal (and various birds).
    Doctor Who: The Name of the Doctor Prequel Announced
    The Radio Times have announced that a prequel to the Doctor Who Series 7 finale, The Name of the Doctor, will be released next week.
    The prequel, titled He Said, She Said will be set in a dusty old museum, and will see the Doctor and Clara reflecting directly to camera how little they truly know about each other (the finale promises to reveal the ‘secrets’ of both the Doctor and Clara).
    The prequel will be three minutes long and will be released online at 7.45pm on Saturday 11th May, straight after the broadcast of Nightmare in Silver. It will also be able to view on the red button in the UK between 7.40pm and midnight BST, and during the evening until the episode’s broadcast the following Saturday.
    The Name of the Doctor will be broadcast on Saturday 18th May.
    [Source: Radio Times]

    #7701
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @ardaraith @blenkinsopthebrave – “talking directly to camera” well there you go, old chap, you finally get the broken 4th wall. You were right my antipodean friend, you were right. Hope you don’t mind the mention on a spoiler (I don’t really think its a spoiler tbh)

    Set in a dusty museum … Hmmm, just like the one in Summer Falls, do you think?

    #7703
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @haveyoufedthefish – not sure how I feel regarding the deterioration of the 4th wall, unless its used to reset the show’s direction.

    #7716
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @ardaraith – I’m sure they’ll be some weak plot contrivance for it. Can’t decide if this means how they view each other is significant, or it’s just a device to ramp up the soapy interpersonal elements for a certain demographic – quantum-structured reality TV? Made In Metebelis-3? The Only Way Is Gallifrey?

    #7725
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

     

    Spoilers & Speculation

    I wonder if we ( well, at least me) have been looking at Clara the wrong way?

    Moffat is, beyond argument I would think, a recycler of themes and an acute misdirection expert.

    Season 5 saw a time paradox solving the destruction of the Universe and Amy’s memories restoring the Doctor to that Universe.

    Season 6 saw a time paradox solving the murder of the Doctor, with the memories of those who were at the Lake being used as a way for the Doctor to be made safer, by people thinking he was dead. River carries the burden of being the one who killed the Doctor.

    Apart from Asylum, it does not seem that Season 7.1 was about anything except ending the Pond era.

    But, starting with Snowmen, Season 7.2 is about the Impossible Girl.

    Because the Great Intelligence was involved, I made what I think may be the mistake of assuming that it would want the Doctor’s memories or the TARDIS and that, therefore, Clara would be the way of restoring those memories to the Doctor.

    But the spoiler which shows the gravestone of River Song has made me think otherwise. Because, whatever that is, I am certain it is classic misdirection and not a sign that River is dead.

    So if there is a gravestone, why is there one? Who is dead?

    Precisely.

    Is this arc about a death the Doctor did not see coming? Or, maybe, his final end, but not in its right time?

    Dorium knew about Trenzalore and the ” fall of the Eleventh ” and talked about a question that must be answered. How did Dorium come to know that, to hear that legend?

    The Whispermen perhaps? Is that their purpose? To whisper rumours so that eventually they become fact?

    In any event, we think that the question is “Doctor who?”. Lets say it is. There is no way the Doctor’s real name will be spoken out loud. But it might be communicated telepathically – Clara knows the name and she seems telepathic.  River also knows the name – so, if she is there, she could answer the question – and if she is there in some post Forest form ( perhaps a hologram powered by the TARDIS ) then she might be able to answer without speaking ( because she is not corporeal or because being part of CAL gives her telepathic abilities).

    But what is the question for? Why does the Great Intelligence or whoever want to know?

    When Tennant discovered River knew his name, he was shocked. It seemed that he thought there was ever only one place his name would be spoken. I assumed that was either his wedding or his funeral. And the emphasis on River has always made me think that it was more likely the first, even when we apparently saw the Doctor whisper it to her. I guess Moffat helped with that by showing us a funeral for the Doctor, which River attended, but where there was no mention of his name. Misdirection.

    So, if not a wedding – a funeral. Do you seal a Time Lord tomb by invoking his/her real name? Do you stop a regeneration by invoking the real name?

    And is the GI planning on entombing the Doctor on Trenzalore so that he is finally dead? Having learnt from the Pandorica ( where the Doctor was not sealed in with his name) is the GI onto something?

    Or is it going to absorb his memories so that he ceases to exist? Or somehow wipe out his memories so that he never existed? And then entomb him?

    So – what of Clara? I confess there is one thing which really puzzles me – the leaf. Somehow, that leaf is a clue, part of the explanation for Clara. Is she a leaf from some Tree of Life? I don’t know – but there is something about that leaf.

    Clara – given that the Doctor has asked her outright whether she is a “trick or a trap” she is sure to be neither. Misdirection.

    It is clear she does not know who she is. But she has one consistent trait – she keeps saving the Doctor. Every episode she is in, Clara provides the clue or actually solves the puzzle/averts disaster. One way or another, she is his saviour.

    In religious and mythological theory, it is often the case that the saviour is also the creator.

    Can that be the paradox for this arc? Clara saves the Doctor because she creates the Doctor? Not in the sense that she is his mother, although maybe, but because she does something on Gallifrey which makes him run with Susan, makes him steal the TARDIS?

    And, if we accept what Idris said in Doctor’s Wife, and the TARDIS chose the Doctor, then either Clara is some emanation of the TARDIS or Clara enters the TARDIS vortex to fragment herself through time, working with the TARDIS to ensure she is always where the Doctor might need her.

    Even looked at this way, Clara could be Susan.

    But I think rather than restore the Doctor’s memories or run a computer programme to do that, whatever happens at Trenzalore when the Doctor falls will make her the Impossible Girl – and that will be the paradox this arc.

    The Clara paradox will save the Doctor’s existence as a traveller, a meddler,  an intervener in the evils of the Universe ( and thereby saving entire races and planets ) having prevented his elimination by the GI by altering his past and his future.

    Clara’s intervention now could mean that the Doctor never becomes the Valeyard – because that future ends, never happens, because of what the GI and Clara do here.

    Her power, the power of love and belief through the centuries, will save him. Some timey-wimey way.

    Perhaps it is as simple as she goes back to Snowmen and gets the Doctor to absorb the GI or have the TARDIS consume it – thereby stopping its creation?

    I suspect, though, it will be both simpler and more complicated than that.

    Moffat says it is a game changer; that Doctor Who will never be the same again. There is one thing that is constant in Doctor Who and really only one thing, albeit one thing that evolves over time – the TARDIS.

    So is that what is going to change? The Doctor gets a new TARDIS?

    Whatever, I think that at least one thing is in plain sight: the Impossible Girl saves the Doctor.  And she is the Impossible Girl because as the Impossible Girl she was somewhere, sometime when she became the Impossible Girl – so she creates herself ( I suspect with the help of the TARDIS) so that she can save him.

    A paradox created by someone other than the Doctor saves him.

    No Time Lords, No unlocking the Seal, no Daleks or other Big Bad, no Doctor doppelgänger or dark Doctor.

    Just Clara. And the fruit of the Doctor’s creation of the Great Intelligence. And the TARDIS.

    Okay – there you go. My final theory – well, part theory anyway. Pain medication is a great incentive for wild theories…

    #7824
    Anonymous @

    @HTPBDET – I’m with you on the ‘no unlocking the Seal’ and ‘no Time Lords’.  Tennant’s Doctor already had the return of the Time Lords in his own grand finale, so it would be a bit rubbish and samey if Smith’s Doctor used them as well.

    I’m still stuck on the fact that the leaf Clara offered up to Grandfather was totally different to the leaf the Doctor originally found in her book (then smelled and tasted in that strange way).  And I’m stuck too that Clara said it wasn’t a leaf, ‘it’s Page One’. Although that latter could be why she offers it up for sacrifice as a token of infinite futures – Page One of any book could be viewed that way.

    #7916
    Anonymous @

    here be spoilers….
    **************************************
    here be spoilers….
    @htpbdet — some excellent food for thought there.
    I think it’s interesting that we’ll be seeing a post-Library River in the finale. Does that mean she’s already ‘escaped’ somehow or that we’ll be revisiting the events of the Library somehow. Maybe there’s something to be said for Clara being some version of CAL somehow.

    #7951
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @jimthefish

    Not sure re River – can we trust DWM?

    Perhaps the TARDIS has a way to communicate with River inside CAL?

    #7952
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @jimthefish
    Not sure re River – can we trust DWM?
    Perhaps the TARDIS has a way to communicate with River inside CAL?

    #8026
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    ****spoiler*****
    spoiler for the dark Doctor fish

    ….*****

    from BBCone twitter account

     

    http://twitter.com/BBCOne/status/331194305551138816/photo/1

    #8090
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @wolfweedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jMNS2KNvGg … that is a lot cybermen.

    But curiously they’re standing around a medieval tent … which I can’t help noticing is very similar to the one seen in the background during filming (supposedly) of the anniversary special …

    #8095
    eric @eric

    Does anyone else think that Clara is the Tardis manifesting itself across time and space? I thought so after re-watching “Asylum of the Daleks”. When Rory bumps into the Dalek it starts saying “eggs.eggs.eggs.”. Obviously Clara does the same at the end. If the 11th dimensional consciousness of the Tardis was integrated into the pathweb, the Daleks could have the same vocal glitch prior to Clara experiencing it. Also. 11th dimensional consciousness… fall of the 11th…

    #8099
    janetteB @janetteb

    I just looked at @zaphod‘s very spoilery twitter links and I almost jumped up and down with excitement. I won’t say much incase other’s have chosen not to look at them as there has been no comment about them thus far but I do wonder what year they are supposed to be. I suspect that at least one is present day which means that we might be meeting Ian Chesterton again. (Has fingers tightly crossed.)

    @Shazzbot I too keep wondering about the leaf. I doubt that it was simply a continuity error. It was far too significant for that and the two versions appeared in the same episode so I think we were meant to realise they differ which is what makes me suspect that somehow the past wasn’t real or she isn’t the real Clara and convinces me that Clara is not “just an ordinary girl”.

    Have been away all weekend so I haven’t yet seen Crimson Horror so have to avoid that discussion thread until tomorrow. I did however take a sneaky peak at Dan Martin’s blog and noticed that right at the beginning he claims that it is known that Matt is staying on for another year. Is he just remarking upon rumour or has there been an announcement that I have missed, being off line for four days?

    Cheers

    Janette

    #8101
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @janetteb

    No announcement. Indeed, as far as I can see, no commitment fom the BBC to a season in 2014 – contrast Sherlock where a re commission has been announced.

    I wondered about what Dan said – whether he was helping keep the misdirection going?

    I think DWM says that the review copy of TNOTD did hot have the last five minutes…

    #8105
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    Im increasingly of the feeling that anything to do with the anniversary is misdirection. The fact that the only thing announced is JLCs contract renewal really leads me suspect that too is misdirection, so you cant possibly suspect shes the baddie because apparently she has a future as a long term companion mapped out. Its a ruse.

    “im the boss” could be a foreshadowing that shes the big bad end-of-level boss, the one behind kovarian, the monks, the whole 3 series conspiracy, with temporarily erased memories so even a psychic can’t detect her… perky companion is the perfect disguise, after all.

    #8206
    PhileasF @phileasf

    Some people consider the trailer at the end of an episode to be a spoiler, so I’m posting this in the spoiler forum. In the trailer for Nightmare in Silver, we see Clara acting like a trained soldier able to command other soldiers. (Like a ‘boss’?) How?

    a) Clara is pretty good at pretending to be a soldier (due to watching lots of movies)

    b) She gets a ‘soldier’ implant, just like the computer skills module added to her mind in BellsoSJ.

    c) This is her real personality, finally brought to the fore. Maybe she’s one of those militant Anglicans seen several times over the past few years. Since this is a spoiler forum, I can mention that JLC has said Clara’s someone the Doctor met during the past few years. Is she… Lorna Bucket? I always liked Lorna Bucket. She was very brave. And pretty.

    d) The Clara in the clip is… another Clara/Oswin! So ‘our’ Clara will finally be confronted with the knowledge that she isn’t unique.

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