S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS

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  • #7655
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @whohar

    Interestingly Doc 7 was the same age as The Rani

    I always entertained the notion that the Doc’s “year group” at the Academy were a troublesome bunch. Argumentative student rebels against a very conservative culture that believed in non-intervention. They all wanted more access with different motivations. The Doctor to explore, The Master to bring “order” (well – his order), Rani to use her scientific knowledge and Drax to turn a fast buck. While it doesn’t really stack up to full scrutiny, it makes a weird kind of sense in the sixties roots of the show, when student radicals were all the rage.

    @htpbdet

    On the age front, I was struggling earlier in the blog. I’m sure there is a throwaway reference to “about three hundred” pretty early on to Vicky during her tenure, but I can’t remember the exact story. I may have to dig out the vids and audio this weekend because it is beginning to bug me! I’ve also said earlier in the blog that the Doctors age is one of those things. I’d say he approximates, sometimes exaggerates for effect, and sometimes decides to be falsely precise because he really can’t be bothered to remember.

    #7656
    WhoHar @whohar

    @htpbdet

    Not sure I’m buying this thing about the Doc not knowing his own age – the TL’s must have a way of tracking events linearly as well as in a timey-wimey way. If the Doc genuinely can’t work out his age, why does he keep on giving actual figures out?

    But if Moffat doesn’t think the Doc’s age is a big deal then it’s less likely to be a big clue in show. But…Rule 0.

    #7657
    WhoHar @whohar

    @phaseshift.

    Flower power Time Lords. I like it.

    I wonder how long they are.in school for – must be decades.

    Re: the Rani – I’m just trying to shoehorn in a sister for the Doc any way I can. It’s my “going against the grain” theory for this year. (Last year’s had little Amelia in the Spacesuit in TIA; just to give you an idea of my track record).

    #7659
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @whohar    In War Games it was made clear that the Time Lords had not been able to track the Doctor after he stole the TARDIS – he needed to give his location for them to help him. So he could have spent thousands of years of his time between when he stole the TARDIS and War Games.

    I’m not sure that the Doctor actually cares how old he is?

    I don’t think I would mind much at all if the Rani turned out to be the Doctor’s bossy older sister… 🙂

    @phaseshift   I have been trawling through the old recordings to see if there is a Hartnell mention – but I have not found one yet and am not sure that I can ever remember one. Of course, it might be in a novelizaiton but not on screen?

    #7661
    PhileasF @phileasf

    @Shazzbot, thanks.

    @HTPBDET — I think the ‘Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story’ could work. I’m willing to believe the author of Blink and Asylum of the Daleks could pull it off, especially in an anniversary celebration story.

    #7662
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @phaseshift

    Rescue has this:

    BARBARA: Well, what was the year when you left Earth? VICKI: 2493, of course. My mother had just died and Daddy wanted to get away so he took a job on the planet Astra. IAN: You were on your way there and you crashed here? VICKI: Yes. But why did you ask me the year? What year did you leave? IAN: Well, you see Vicki, our space ship, well, isn’t like this one. It travels through time. BARBARA: We left in 1963. VICKI: 1963! But that means you’re about five hundred and fifty years old. BARBARA: Why, yes, I suppose I am. Yes, it’s a way of looking at it, but I’ll try not to look at it too often. VICKI: They didn’t have time machines in 1963, they didn’t know anything then. IAN: Oh, we weren’t entirely ignorant, young lady. Even the Doctor thought it was worth paying us a visit. That’s how we got mixed up with him in the first place. BARBARA: The Doctors from a different age, a different planet altogether. 

    And in The Time Meddler:

    VICKI: Well, they weren’t getting any younger, were they? DOCTOR: It’s lucky for you child, they’re not here to hear you say that. Good gracious me. You think they’re old? What do you think of me? VICKI: You’re different, Doctor. Anyway, we may land in their time one day and be able to talk over old times. 

    #7663
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @phileasf        I think the ‘Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story’ could work

    Yes, no doubt. Possibly will.

    But in an “in-story” way – with his friends, companions, the TARDIS etc – restoring him from their memories, form the footprints he left in their lives.

    It was the “BBC Television programme” aspect of the theory – the “out-of-story” way – that I think would be undesirable.

    #7664
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #7666
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet – “How would Romana know?”

    I thought it was fairly clearly implied in Utopia, and made pretty explicit in End of Time, that Time Lords appear to have some kind of biological clock going which makes their lifetime run in synch with other Time Lords.

    So in Utopia the Master complains he’s been stuck in this dratted laboratory for seventeen years, which is a meta-reference to the length of time since his last appearance in Classic Who. In End of Time the Doctor misses finding the Master because he delayed answering the Oods’ call.

    And he knows it’s his own delay; I’d have to rewatch to find the lines, but the way he sort of saunters in to the cave in an ‘I’m the boss of time’ way  – and then races out to the TARDIS as fast as he can, trying to get every kind of speed out of her, strongly implies that the personal times of the Doctor and the Master are locked together. I’m not sure if he doesn’t actually say that.

    Similarly, the Doctor never (to my recollection) meets another Time Lord out of synch. He never has to match diaries with another Time Lord. He never gets back to Gallifrey and discovers that, say, the Invasion of Time hasn’t happened yet.

    So Romana would know exactly how long the Doctor had been roaming around with the TARDIS; it would be the same number of years as the years since he fled Gallifrey.

    #7667
    thommck @thommck

    LOL the age of a time traveller can be very confusing!

    Most planets measure years by the length of time to travel around the sun. This seems completely irrelevant to Timelords so I guess their age can’t really be expressed in years.

    More likely they count it in seconds, then that can be easily calculated to whatever planet you are on. Then again, I suppose seconds move faster in some places?!?

    Ultimately, it could be irrelevant to the Timelord as we still don’t have any concrete facts on regeneration. It will probably always get a timey-wimey answer

    Brain melting now, I knew I shouldn’t have got involved with this!

    #7668
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip     You may well be right – as I say, I am no expert on End of Time.

    I am not sure what passages you are referring to, but all I can say is that what you have said about Time Lords appearing to have an in-sych body clock with other Time Lords never seemed implied to me.

    Is this the passage you meant?

    WM: Listen, Doctor. If this is a time machine, that man you’re chasing, why can’t you just pop back to yesterday and catch him?D: I can’t go back inside my own timeline. I have to stay relative to the Master within the causal nexus. Understand?WM: Not a word.

    But, ultimately, as @thommck says, age is probably irrelevant to Time Lords.

    As to meetings on Gallifrey out of synch – not sure how we would know or why it would matter. Usually, its River who wants to sort out where they are in their personal timeline. Isn’t it?

    #7669
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Hmm… so in Classic Who, the Doctor has a fairly stable background to his life. He’s running away from it, but it’s there. He has a home planet (which he’s in exile from), he has a family (his granddaughter now has her own life), he has a shared history with a lot of other people (even if most of them want to kill him).

    In NuWho, increasingly, there’s no stability. Initially, Gallifrey is burning, the family are referred to as dead, the TimeLords are gone – and there’s very few people left who know their history and even fewer who care.

    He takes refuge in friends; in Classic Who he had a lot of friends; each of whom travelled with him for a few years and then left to get on with their own lives. The Doctor used to be a sort of reclamation centre; picking up stray aliens  and generally returning them to the universe more mature than when they’d met him. Better able to cope. Likely to make a real difference.

    But in NuWho, even that refuge is becoming increasingly bleak. Somehow he’s lost his touch. The friends he finds would mostly have been better off if they’d never met him – Rose in exile, Martha’s family nearly destroyed by the Master, Donna mind-wiped, Amy and Rory trapped in a time before they were even born. His wife spent her childhood years being raised as a psychopath – because of him. And now there’s Clara, who’s already died twice and seems destined to get killed yet again.

    However hard he tries, it seems, he can’t get back to the world before the Time War. And now he’s even losing his connection to his own life; he cannot remember his age. It’s not important; it doesn’t matter – but it’s pretty clear he no longer has any clue what it is. The reference points are gone; what’s he going to date it by? The years on a Gallifrey that no longer exists? A Time Lord calendar that’s long been forgotten?

    So I’d say the age question is all part of the larger disconnect; the Doctor is lost. The only things left are his name (which must be secret) and his TARDIS (which must be kept out of battle).

    Ten, when with Rose, could face the loss of the TARDIS reasonably calmly, could start thinking about what he’d have to do now (The Impossible Planet). Eleven, faced with the loss of the TARDIS, sounds like a bewildered little boy who’s just realised his Mum is dying. No wonder Clara reaches out to take his hand.

    #7670
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @htpbdet – I think you’re missing a crucial point re:age; the Tardis will have a very accurate log of how long the doc has been travelling for, being with him more or less continuously through his personal timeline (Tom Bakers first series excepting).

    Romana and the Timelords would have access to that, once they have access to the Tardis (whether they were able to track him up till then or not), so you’d expect any ages they voice would be accurate. The Doc has access to the Tardis clock too, but I assume he can be bothered to look, care, more than happy to exaggerate etc.

    #7671
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet – no, not that bit. I’ll have to haul the DVD out and take a look – it’s earlier, when he’s told the prophecies by the Ood in Wookey Hole.

    I think the point is that in most of the Gallifrey stories, people often do casually refer to previous events (or, not casually try to kill him/make him president because of previous events) and there’s always this unspoken assumption that Gallifreyan time flows in the same order as Doctor-time (i.e. in the same order as the TV programmes). Nobody’s worried about spoilers, or hauling out diaries, or saying ‘um, you know what? I think you’re that lout who’s going to marry my granddaughter – you’ve arrived back in your own past’.

    Equally the Master and the Doctor always seemed to meet each other in the right order – without even trying.

    #7672
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @bluesqueakpip – i’m not sure about the “staying in sync bit”. When the doc visits “present day” we see it and the doctors visits are in chronological order along he personal timeline. His relationship with the Brig was chronological, in fact River is the only reoccuring character who’s appearances have been non-chronological, and even then actually “mostly chronological” with a blip at the start. Equally, why would the doc have to run from the pyramids from Mars to earth in 5 mins. He had all the time in the world – he’s got a frigging time machine!

    And we’re not Timelords! At least … I don’t think so (checks chest for heartbeat and for pocket watch, just in case)

    So what i mean is, his history seems to be overwhelmingly chronological, not just the interactions with Gallifrey and TL’s, with the odd popping back or forward.

    Obviously that’s because of certain production constraints, but in the context of the show I think either:
    a) it’s easier to avoid crossing your own time stream if you keep your visits chronological

    b) it keeps the doctor sane knowing his interactions with other people are in the same order he experiences them. Otherwise he’d go mad.

    #7673
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip     I may be wrong, but I thought that the Dr ran from the Ood cave because they told him about the Master’s wife and the possibility of his survival?

    @HaveYouFedTheFish   No, I agree that the TARDIS would know. I also agree that the Doctor would have access but probably cant be bothered.

    But why do you think the Time Lords would have access to the TARDIS archives/memories? Or that anything Romana said about the Doctor’s age came from the TARDIS records rather than her briefing on Gallifrey?

    I am not really fussed one way or the other about the Doctor’s age – but I am not sure we really know. And I am not sure it matters.

    #7674
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip      Your analysis above is, with respect, spot on. #7669

    I agree that the Doctor’s issues with his age may be part of his overall memory loss here. He does seem, in some ways, to be falling apart – or disappearing, fading away.

    Not at all sure that Clara will die again…but maybe you are right.

    #7676
    Anonymous @

    @Bluesqueakpip – as a Classic Who ignorant, I’m always appreciative of analyses of previous series which draw connections to nu-Who.  All I can add to your excellent post is a reminder that, in new-Who, all of the companions have had families back on Earth to tether [and interfere in] their timey-wimey travels. (Well, I’ve argued in a previous comment that Amy/Rory  – and certainly Clara – don’t fit that template.)

    From your comment, it doesn’t appear that the same was necessarily so in the classic episodes.  I find it quite interesting that your take is that the Doctor was ‘more stable’ in Classic Who and that he is ‘more bleak’ the more he has companions who have stable family lives [on Earth] in nu-Who.

    Nu-Who has yet to have a TimeLord companion nor indeed a [main] companion who is an ‘alien’.  Is this what is different, then?  Between the Classic and Nu, is what has changed the Doctor that latterly he has had solely human companions, and formerly, he had a bit more variety?

    #7679
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @htpbdet – when it suited them, TLs had complete control over the tardis – the CIA sending it where they needed the doc to do their dirty work. If they can do that, it’s probable they can check the logs if they want, probably remotely and certainly when it’s on gallifrey.

    (Heck, these days earthly cars stream their logs continously back to the manufacturer, so for the tardis not to do so seems incredibly quaint)

    It would be the first thing romana would do as soon as she entered the tardis, surely? I would. And Romana v1 was very much a woman who would ensure she got her facts straight. She was not a best guess or assume kinda gal.

    #7680
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot – I was using ‘alien’ in the sense that – to the Doctor – all of his Companions with the exception of Romana have been alien. Some of the Classic Who Companions were also alien to humans. 🙂 But yes, the NuWho Companions have been the ones with stable family lives up to Amy – Rory actually had a very stable family, it’s just that Amy was, from childhood, the most important person in his world.

    The NuWho Companions have or gain a family. The NuWho Doctor is always left alone. You could say that the reason the Williams-Pond family were largely absent was because that story was all about the Doctor gaining a new family with River, Amy and Rory  (wife, parents-in-law) – only to lose them again. This suggests that Moffat does have a very firm direction in mind – the Doctor’s current situation seems to be one where there’s nothing to look forward to but semi-permanent heartbreak. He is alone; his only friends from a race that live less than a tenth as long as he does. He is a man with a dark and dangerous past; feared, known, famous. But rarely loved.

    The Classic Who Doctor was often technically alone, but he starts the Classic series as a family man, a Grandfather. He’s exiled – but his world exists, and later he seems to be semi-reconciled with them. When they re-started Nu-Who they had to re-introduce the Doctor very quickly – and all that was gone. In its place was a shell-shocked war veteran who was the only survivor of his entire world.

    I think the current direction is one where Moffat’s wrapping up the beginning of NuWho – putting that shell-shocked war veteran to rest and letting the man (or woman) behind ‘The Doctor’ start to live again. As Churchill once said:

    ‘This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

     

    #7684
    Anonymous @

    @Bluesqueakpip – thank you for your reply!  But I’m still not sure how the post-2005 Doctor character is different from the original Doctor character (after the regeneration element was hastily added).  In that, unless his companion is a TimeLord who can also regenerate, he will always outlive his companion(s) and as Clara so perceptively said to him ‘to you, we’re all ghosts.’

    I do understand that Clara’s comment was framed by time-travel;  but it also means that anyone who can live so much longer than the life forms he chooses to be [travel] with, will always leave those companions in dust or as ghosts.

    Of course, as a time traveller the Doctor always has the option to dip in and out of his former companions’ lives (unless left on parallel universes / with wiped memories / not accessible due to script reasons).  Which reinforces the ‘ghost’ issue.  And to me, this makes the Doctor the same as he always was:  the person who outlives every individual person around him – which is a horrifically lonely place to be.

    Most very old people who have been interviewed say that the single worst thing about being so long-lived is that they’ve outlived all their contemporaries, and find themselves in a world they can no longer comprehend.  As cheesey as the Anne Rice vampire novels were, I thought they at least tried to deal with this really important point: that immortality is not a gift, but is really a curse on one’s ability to deal with worlds that change so utterly that one can no longer function.

    I am really interested to see how S Moffat deals with the problem of a functionally immortal protagonist who must manage to change as necessary with changing times, and still finds purpose in his life in those changing times as well.

    #7686
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot -the most basic difference between the Classic Doctor and the NuWho Doctor was that the Classic Doctor always knew his universe contained other ‘immortals’. He didn’t depend on his Companions; he just preferred their company. There were other ‘people’ around; other people who aged the same way he did, regenerated the way he did, an entire culture to slot back into. People who weren’t ghosts, who allowed him to see other races as also people – just people with very short lives.

    It’s the difference between a refugee who knows there’s a home to go back to (once that government has fallen) and one who knows their entire family, hometown, culture has been blotted out. With the additional problem that he can’t even die – Time Lords have survival built-in anyway, and the Doctor’s rather obviously not the suicidal type. Though there were certainly moments in Ten’s post-Rose career when he seemed to want to find some heroic method of not-committing-suicide-honestly.

    The Classic Doctor really didn’t have that level of angst. Nine, Ten and Eleven all do pain beautifully – I think there’s a video on the subject over on the Fan Creativity forum.

    #7687
    Anonymous @

    Aww, but @Bluesqueakpip : “The most basic difference between the Classic Doctor and the NuWho Doctor was that the Classic Doctor always knew his universe contained other ‘immortals’. He didn’t depend on his Companions; he just preferred their company.”

    That is probably the biggest difference, then, between [what I know not of] the original companions in Classic Who, and [what I have learnt] in nu-Who:  Since Ecclestone, the Doctor has certainly depended on his companions to keep him on the straight-and-narrow.  It was not only intimated but absolutely broadcasted that he couldn’t be trusted without a human companion to ensure that he didn’t go OTT.  Starting with Rose shielding the Dalek against 9’s gun (‘I know who is pointing a gun at me’).

    Is this, then, the changing mores of our times?  In the beginning, TV watchers could be entrusted to assume that every alien creature *had* to be vanquished.  Come the 21st century, so-called ‘alien creatures’ might be allowed to seem sympathetic.  But only the human companions can make that call.  Even if they’re wrong, their empathy for ‘the other’ is allowed to take centre stage.

    Meta-meta-analysis of Doctor Who The Programme?  The assumed arc story-telling meme assumes that we, the humans, are telling the story.

    #7691
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot. Classic Who certainly had sympathetic aliens; within the constraints of an adventure series. They weren’t all evil and sometimes it was the humans who were the bad guys.

    Similarly, NuWho has had sympathetic aliens, but the Doctor’s lack of empathy is becoming a major problem. In a sense, we’re going back full circle to the First Doctor – who was a very dubious alien indeed. Susan, from what I’ve seen, was generally a nice, sympathetic teenager. The Doctor nearly murdered someone in his second episode (and Bill Hartnell was mainly known for playing crooks and hard nuts). The First Doctor needed Ian and Barbara to learn both empathy and morality – I suppose you’d say that the difference was that – after he’d learnt it – he didn’t seem to really need his Companions to keep him on the straight-and-narrow. Though, the Doctor being the Doctor, straight and narrow was more like ‘broad and a bit bendy here and there’. 🙂

    But post Time War, he was a traumatised near-psychopath. I’m not sure how much of this is meta about modern TV; a lot of the story ‘problems’ (like the Doctor’s near-god-like status) were caused by the need for a quick impact with the first series. Making Rose the emotional focus, the person who must keep the Doctor in check, was one of the ways to get audience identification. And it has carried on; the Companion is the emotional focus now. They’re us.

    I’d certainly say that the humans are telling this story. And watching it, too. 🙂

    #7692
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    A little thought has just occurred to me as I was writing up my review; given all the references to stories within the series and this episode – were the TARDIS engines exploding until the Doctor decided to tell the Van Baalens his story about the engines exploding?

    #7702
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @ardaraith – you’ve pointed out a couple of times the poignancy of Clara taking the docs hand as he grieves for the tardis.

    @bluesqeakpip, you made me remember, the only other time I can think that happened was with rose as a grieving 9 told her he was the last of the time lords in End of the World.

    @bluesqueakpip – a lot is made of the early hartnells dubious morals, but I think it’s more ambigious than that. I think the producers were playing with the audience with “can this weird alien guy be trusted?” exaggerated red herrings to put the audience in Ian and Barbara’s POV. As Ian and Barbara’s trust is gained, the hints all but evaporate. He did pick up the rock, there didn’t seem any obvious reason for it … But it’s not like he actually tried to do anything.

    But He was a deeply paranoid man, on the run, doing anything to protect his granddaughter (possibly wracked with guilt for getting her into this mess in the first place)

    Paranoia and misunderstanding of motive are rife in early who. Edge of destruction is like a claustrophobic Pinter play, and that’s not accidental. You could easily argue there’s a cold war intertextuality in the Docs eastern bloc kidnapping Ian and Barbara for both his and their protection.

    Ian and Barbara were as much the first series focus for audience identification as rose was for the relaunch; theres a lot of parallels with the original and nu-who’s development of the Doctors character.

    The thing that really annoyed me about 3rd rate minds like Micheal Grade is that he never got that the “b-movie schlock” of who is just a light, patina surface.

    Underneath, people who went on to become acknowledged as the best writers (and drama producers) ever to work in British TV – Troy Kennedy Martin (edge of darkness) and Chris chibnall (broad church) too name but two – were being given a virtual blank canvas to flex their muscles and show off what they can do on calling card morality plays where no tension can be cranked too high, no emotion too OTT, no scenario too outlandish and with one of the biggest guaranteed audiences in broadcasting.

    So, anyone who moans about my pointless sub-sixth form intertextual readings of “what is just a trashy kid show with zero depth. Get over yourself” – I used to get that continuously on the guardian and so that’s why I’m never going back – just has no conception of what’s going into it from the people on the production side; sometimes because they are fans, but usually because it’s a platform they can launch careers from and therefore they throw their all into it. TV is full of jobbing creatives, but dr who is just not one of them.

    This is leaving aside that the whole of BBC Wales now has something to prove here!

    #7705
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Aaaaaaaaaaand I’m back! @lula and @phaseshift thanks for the warm wishes for my trip but my hotel was a BBC America-free zone… Aaargh! I swiftly resigned myself to staying away from here for a week and looked forward instead to a double dose of Who today.

    The week was pretty hectic anyway, thank God we only do it every two years. When I wasn’t working I was drinking, ehm, I mean making new contacts and strengthening old friendships. I did manage to squeeze a trip to Epcot in on the Sunday before it all started though, which meant I could be a kid again for a day and do some of my own time and space travelling.

    A very warm welcome to all the new members. Fantastic to see you all here. And so many posts, I can’t believe it. Looking forward to catching up on them all. And also a big thanks to @phaseshift and @jimthefish for keeping everything in order while I was away.

    Now I’m off to watch this very episode…

    #7711
    Lula @lula

    @craig —- Welcome back!  Glad you got to spend time at Epcot.  It’s pretty much my favorite place because Judi Dench! Faux hang gliding!  Faux racetrack fun!  And drinking around World Showcase, which is the best part of Epcot.  Sorry for the lack of BBC America but glad you’re catching up today.

    I’ll be seeing Iron Man 3 this evening, so The Crimson Horror will have to wait until very late tonight or early tomorrow morning.  I expect to find this place full of fun theorizing when I next check in.  Do your best, y’all!

     

    #7712
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip

    Age:     Well, you might be right. Romana 1 struck me as the personification of what the Doctor did not like about Time Lord society. She was smug, self-assured, totally on top of theory and completely sure that what she had been told by the Academy and the President was completely true. It was her travels with the Doctor which broadened her mind. So, no, I don’t think the first thing she would have done would have been to check the TARDIS data banks.

    And, in any event, as Troughton made clear in Tomb, Earth time is calculated differently from the way he ( and therefore, presumably, Gallifreyans ) calculates it. I cannot see how or why Romana would, therefore, speak in Earth years.

    But, as I say, I am not sure it matters – least of all to the Doctor

    #7713
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @HaveYouFed The Fish.   You got there before me – I completely agree with you re Hartnell and the relationship between he and his companions – Rose was very definitely the new Ian and Barbara.

    I think the real s difference between Classic and Nu is the resolution of the Time War. That one stroke by Davies left the field open for new adventures and left lingering possibilities for revisiting the past.

     

    #7718
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Hi everyone,, especially @craig (welcome back; open the “networking” schedule wasn’t too manic, LOL)

    Some great posts above – Good to see @haveyoufedthefish‘s 11’s Tardis goes to 1 theory has still got great legs.

    Re Classic Who/Nu Who – great analysis (as usual!) by @bluesqueakpip, very much agree.  Other key difference between them is in the stories themselves. The Doctor and companions would have a bit of back story – possibly picked up in their intro episode, but mostly the stories weren’t about them as such. They would arrive somewhere and get involved in someone else’s story (much like us the viewers).  Whereas since 2005 the story is much more about the Dr and the companions. Moffat is on record as saying that his view of Dr Who is that it’s very much about the companions’ “journey” eg Amy starting as a child, thro to adulthood.  the adventures tend to reflect the emotional situations of the companions – eg Amy’s Choice, Vincent’s depression-monster etc – it’s about the effects the people they meet  have on the travellers rather than the other way round.  Hence the reason for much gnashing of teeth and fuming and the “it’s not as good as it was” comments.  It’s not that it’s not as good, it’s just different.

    And I’m 100% with @htpbdet 🙂 Please no cheesy 4th wall love-in (meta-refs are fine!) and @blenkinsopthebrave‘s 4th wall Kennedy theories also fine!); Doctor’s name revealed if they must (tho somehow I don’t think they will) so long as they retain mysteries about the details of his origins. Hints are fine, for obsessional theorising after.

    #7719
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Further roles of Classic Who companions in the 60s included getting kidnapped/captured/hypnotised/fall-over-and-sprain-ankle (Susan was particularly talented at this), as well as ability to run around and scream well 😉 . And occasionally falling in love when they needed to move on.

    Very excited about tonight’s episode. Interesting look to some of the preview pics and posters (only looked at a very few) – there’s a “plastic” sort of look that’s reminding me of something that I can’t quite put my finger on.  Hope it’s a goodie. See you all on the other side 😀

    #7721
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    there’s a “plastic” sort of look that’s reminding me of something that I can’t quite put my finger on.

    Talons of Weng Chiang? John Bennett was under so much early prosthetic make-up to make him look vaguely Chinese, he did look a bit plastic. Or something more recent, like the Flesh of the Almost People?

    #7722
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Welcome back @craig. I guessed you may have been stranded without BBC America, but at least you get the double dose of Who goodness today.

    #7724
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Yes, welcome back @craig.

    I am about to post some medication inspired thoughts on the finale in Spoilers if anyone wants to fume with rage or snigger with contempt or even express mild agreement…

    @scaryb.    While I agree the Classic series was not “about” the companions in the same way as Nu Who is, I think that we did, often, know quite a lot about them from their introductory story and then we saw how they dealt with the travels. There were some exceptions – Dodo, for instance – but, by and large, we knew what we were getting when they became companions. Another major difference, I think anyway, is that the companions never went home between journeys in that early time, certainly Pre-Pertwee, and even then there was a sense that the Doctor did not go anywhere without the companions (Metebelis Three being one exception).Nu-Who changes that too.

    #7831
    confuseus @confuseus

    So here’s the story so far.

    Clara turns up in The Bells of St. John, after The Doctor has been hunting fruitlessly for her.

    She is the “real” Clara whose password is merely incidental to the whole story, in that to us it appears significant now but it actually just is a password to her then, but made into a trap later by making previous Doctors believe it is important.  In fact, Clara was picked only because her password would appear significant to The Doctor in her future / his past meetings.

    Then the Great Intelligence partially uploads her, and when she gets downloaded back she is something quite different, though apparently the same.  Her memories have been altered (as proved by now being a computer whizz) but what else has changed that we don’t know about?  Have other memories, information, triggers been inserted into her mind?  At this point the GI also samples her DNA (not shown) to make clones of her in the “future” for “previous” encounters.  The GI is linked to the Daleks here by being aware of time travel and the ability to manipulate it, and by the earlier episode.  It is also a clever sub-plot to avoid Daleks for a while as they appear to have been overdone in previous nu-Doctor episodes.  Oddly, Clara seems to retain these abilities after the GI is vanquished, even though all the other apparent victims do not, which makes me believe that luring The Doctor to Clara is the primary objective of the entire operation. However, his luring to Clara is triggered by a random diverted phone call to The Tardis but who has The Doctor’s number who would do this?  The Master?

    In The Journey, the Tardis knows Clara from the past, but seems now very suspicious.  What is it about the “original” Clara that is so wrong the Tardis won’t let her fly her?  Or is it more that she knows Clara is an innocent that will somehow lead The Doctor into a trap, because there is otherwise no explanation of her appearing in several different timelines?  However, this doesn’t quite make sense because, as seen below, she allows Clara to enter the Library and see things she otherwise wouldn’t.

    When Clara explores the Tardis she sees things that begin to make sense to her regarding The Doctor.  Hence the “clues” in the Library and so on.  I suspect that the Tardis, knowing that Clara is an innocent trap, intentionally shows her things to help point her in the right direction when the trap is finally triggered.  Remember, the Tardis is doing this deliberately, she has the power to change her internal landscape to create an inescapable labyrinth, just as she did with The Doctor and the three brothers.  Her showing Clara these things is quite deliberate, whereas The Doctor appears to be trying to prevent her from doing so – in Zombie form.

    Does the Tardis make the crisis deliberately by creating a scenario – The Tardis won’t allow Clara to fly so The Doctor is persuaded  to remove the shields so that the magno-grab can create a massive diversion so that Clara can explore uninhibited while The Doctor is projected outside The Tardis to get the Big Friendly Button that will save the day?  I have to say the exploding Tardis’s must be linked, and I think the Tardis, having exploded in another part of time is aware of what caused her to explode (the opening of the Timelock) and is using Clara to take steps to avoid it happening.

    Again this is a backwards story, the Great Intelligence is seen next in Snowmen where Clara again appears, this time apparently not knowing The Doctor again, but able to interact with him very well.  Perhaps she is simply a clone this time, designed merely to die to make The Doctor’s guilt trip him into depression and manic care for her as shown in BoSJ.  The trap by the GI is rather too easy for The Doctor to solve and fix, but certainly seems designed to destabilise him further.

    Finally, in the first episode as a Dalek/Human hybrid, she lures him into another trap, and he is led to believe that The Daleks have forgotten all about him while at the same time dieing.  She makes a huge impact on him, and his guilt at losing yet more innocents to his meddling is triggered severely.

    So, in the Final Episode, Clara will lead him into culmination of the plot in which the Daleks and the Great Intelligence (in alliance with, or built by, the Daleks – who were a creation of Omega, and associated with the Silence – who are slaves of the Daleks, as can be explained by never being seen in conflict with them) unhatches a fiendishly clever plot to trap The Doctor and his companions and force them to break the Time Lock by using Clara (who must never die again!) to force River Song to reveal The Doctor’s Real Name, which, of course, is never revealed to us.  Omega is thus able to be released from his prison to wreak his wrath on the universe.

    Or not.  Because Clara, in order for her to be able to trick The Doctor, must actually BE innocent, which means that she can actually work as an independent spirit in the end and could save the day, helped by the Tardis and perhaps Rose, who is also linked to the Tardis in intimate ways.  Whether she survives this or or not, is an interesting question.  My thought is that she does, which allows The Doctor to begin to heal.  It is possible that the release of the Time Lock must somehow release Rose from her prison so she can help The Tardis save Clara and thus The Doctor to save The Universe and heal him once again!

    #7834
    confuseus @confuseus

    ps found this forum through someone’s post at the graun.  I haven’t lurked there for a while owing to the nesting problem (ciffix for firefox and chrome can help a bit, but is problematic in itself), but found the Who blog interesting, as I’m a bit of a nut since a kid.  I didn’t have tv then but I read a heap of books, and was stoked when the beeb started up Who again.  Really liked it up until Matt Smith, but now I’m wondering whether it was the Amy/Rory combo I detested most.  I’m certainly loving the second part of this series.  I don’t know if this is the place to post this but I don’t have masses of time to read all the threads, will jump on to The Crimson Horror as soon as it shows here in Aus (only a few hours to go..)

    I have watched all the episodes 3 or 4 times consecutively up until Smith, but Journey I have watched 4 times already.  It’s a great episode, and all the speculation here made me go back and watch it.  Again.  and Again.  and Again.  It also makes me want to go back and check out the overall possible story arc, as I couldn’t really figure it out, and would like to check out everyone’s observations to see if I can make more sense of it.  Oh well, on to The Crimson Horror I suppose…

     

    #7836
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Did anyone else find Clara’s expressions, in scenes referencing her relationship to the Doctor, a bit peculiar? When pretending to be Mr & Mrs Smith, the Doctor calls her his “Mrs” and she looks up at him oddly. Then again, as @Shazzbot noted, I believe, when clarifying to Ada that she is the Doctor’s friend. When the kids refer to him as her “boyfriend”, she does it again.

    The intimacy between them was also apparent when the Doctor revived her; their faces were positively glowing.

    Curiouser and curiouser!

    #7839
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @confuseus Welcome! Most of us watch the episodes a second time for fun clue-hunting here too.

    I like your thought that Clara is a trap but an innocent trap.

    I’ve thought for a long time that the Doctor’s name is the key to the Time Lock. The only thing is, that if the Doctor’s name is the answer to the “question” which must never be asked at Trenzalor, it would seem the Silence are keen to prevent the opening of the time lock…

    The anti-Silence eye-patches did have a bit of a dalek-tech look to them…

    #7843
    confuseus @confuseus

    @juniperfish

    Welcome! Most of us watch the episodes a second time for fun clue-hunting here too.

    Thanks!  In the early days of the internet I used to hunt down fan-written stories, some of which were pretty interesting and very well thought out. Some of my vague history of Who probably comes from them.

    I like your thought that Clara is a trap but an innocent trap.

    Yes, but it’s a bit boring.  I prefer to think of her as someone a bit more special, linked to Susan in some way.  I was just trying to tie the story together in a way that wasn’t too speculative, but I don’t really like it. Doesn’t have enough punch for a 50th anniversary special.

    I’ve thought for a long time that the Doctor’s name is the key to the Time Lock. The only thing is, that if the Doctor’s name is the answer to the “question” which must never be asked at Trenzalor, it would seem the Silence are keen to prevent the opening of the time lock…

    Ah, holes in my plot.  So the Silence may actually be a different player to the Daleks. I like the idea that the Doctor’s name is the key to the Timelock, it makes sense as to why it must never be spoken.

    The anti-Silence eye-patches did have a bit of a dalek-tech look to them…

    Future tech, I guess.

    #7981
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi @confuseus,
    Looks like @juniperfish and I are thinking along similar lines!

    I have Clara as being in the Tardis when it explodes, sprinkling her across time. We’re watching the ‘original’ and they ‘remember’ stuff from these adventures (milk, eggs, chin…). We encountered them before we encountered the ‘original’ so are seeing Clara out of sequence.

    I also have the Doctor’s name being the password to the Timelock. My guess was that he set up the Silence to guard the Timelock for him – the perfect sentries – whoever finds it forgets instantly.
    If his name is uttered and opens the Timelock, the Time Lords and Daleks will escape and reap havoc.
    Thus everyone wants him to not open the Timelock (even the Daleks, as at least some are not in the Timelock and could do without the TL’s!).

    So….. no one wants the Dr to fall…..

    #7982
    Whisht @whisht

    btw – that’s not to say I haven’t had a plethora of other bonkers theories and will gladly grab back into the bag to wave them, should any even remotely make an appearance!!

    ;¬)

    #11484
    Brynwe @brynwe

    Hi, I just signed up because I got tired of not having anyone to talk about my love of Dr. Who with.  But this was one of my favorite episodes of the second part of season seven.  Although I thought the second part of season seven as a whole was pretty strong.  Matt Smith is pretty awesome.

    #11485
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Hi @brynwe welcome to our little site. You’ll find loads of people willing to talk about Doctor Who here. Thanks for joining.

    Unfortunately by posting on an older episode you may get overlooked, so I’d suggest you post On The Sofa, or on the The Name of the Doctor thread or the 50th Anniversary speculation thread. That’s where all the conversation is at the moment.

    Look forward to seeing you there.

    #20127
    thommck @thommck

    Just rewatched this. Didn’t spot anything major in retrospect.

    Interesting how the Doctor calls Clara “The salvage of a lifetime”. Turned out quite literally for him!

     

    One thing I picked up on was how much Clara & the Doctor acted like they are brother & sister. They make a great double act so its going to be really interesting to see how Clara develops after the anniversary

    #20132
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck – yeah, what I call the ‘mirroring’ is really noticeable in this episode. My bonkers theory of ‘they’re both the Doctor’ has been buggered up by events – so I suppose the question now is whether they’re related in some way?

    Mother and son? Father and daughter? Brother and Sister? Grandparent and grandchild? Clone copies where one copy regenerated into Clara?

    Or some timey-wimey relationship – in the same way that characters kept spotting that Donna and the Doctor were ‘brother and sister’ because that’s what they’d later become. 🙂

    #20134
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    I guess from your comment, that you don’t think this is an effect of Clara (or rather her multiple Claricles) being in the Doctor’s time line for so long that she has picked up his mannerisms and become Doctor-like ?

    [the problem with this being of course she’s mirroring 11 and not 1 to 10, although you could argue she’d mirror any of then other incarnations (do we still use that word ?) if she was with one of the others]

    Nick

     

    #20136
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    This line of yours (some way back):

    I think the current direction is one where Moffat’s wrapping up the beginning of NuWho – putting that shell-shocked war veteran to rest and letting the man (or woman) behind ‘The Doctor’ start to live again. As Churchill once said:

    ‘This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

    sums up the way things are heading in the 5oth/Christmas very eloquently (and its about 2 years overdue in my opinion 😉 ). Still I can’t help thinking Moffat is going to do more with his reboot.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #20158
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – The various Claricles, we’re told by River, are copies of Clara.

    However, Clara-from-Blackpool, who we’re encouraged to presume is the Original Clara, appears to be a copy of the Doctor. She’s as smart as he is, she’s often a little ahead of him – and also, if Asylum Clara mirrors any Doctor, it’s the Tennant Doctor.

    #24837
    Anonymous @

    I am fascinated by the similarities between JttCotT and tBB.

    1. Exploding TARDIS in a time loop
    2. Doctor possibly dead or in an inescapable situation
    3. Another time line is created at the end

    My gut feeling says that this is a recipe for Moment/Bad Wolf involvement.  In this episode we see the “dead Doctor?”  Bad Wolf cannot let that happen.  So, I think the Doctor that appeared out of nowhere was brought from another point in time by Bad Wolf.   If that happened, the TARDIS exploding is what allowed Bad Wolf to move from Gallifrey and become involved, just like it became involved when Rose opened the TARDIS and when the TARDIS exploded in tBB.  (The gate in tEoT allowed Bad Wolf to get involved in that episode – Wilf lady). So I now think that Bad Wolf always needed some portal that allowed it to contact the Doctor (except the War Doctor who had the Moment with him).

    At this point I really hope Bad Wolf was behind the crack at Trenzalore, so Bad Wolf doesn’t exist anymore. Otherwise, it would be boring watching future DW stories, knowing that the Doctor could never die (Bad Wolf would always save him somehow).  On the other hand, the way she saves him is always fun to watch. 🙂

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