[Nick @replies]

@wolfweed

the picture looks great. Apart from that, I’m afraid I’ve never heard of it so it must be timelocked like the BBC PR boondogie earlier today

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@wolfweed @jimthefish

apparently he was exterminated already

[Nick @replies]

The Northern Echo story that @cptnifty obliquely referred to is true as they have posted an apology on their web site

[Nick @replies]

@wolfweed

so long as you’re  going to eat your cake of course (Dalek or Cyberman or perhaps an angel ?)

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/brands/doctor-who

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

Thanks an interesting post as ever. No I don’t want to see Doctor Who at 9pm (although something else other than a crime set drama trying to do the same things with character would be nice for a change), but I was trying to point out that I see (possibly wrongly) there’s much more in D10 character development “arc” which is akin to that a modern show for a more mature audience is expected to have.

I pretty much agree with your analysis, regarding the run up to a regeneration providing different openings, but I think what you state is still a part cop-out. From my perspective, there is no reason why the Doctor shouldn’t overcome his dark elements and then regenerate (or continue for a while longer) other than it is perhaps not as dramatically satisfying for either the actor or show runner/writing team (for the audience on a family show I feel this is likely to be a lessor issue).

In fact the thought had crossed my mind that the fact that RTD (and SM) felt that he can to write a darker driven character is itself a cop-out to modern dramatic sensibilities (that the lead character must be flawed and driven by internal contradictions), as this is becoming to feel like a piece of stereo-typing in the way that the lead character as perfect hero could do in the past. can there be a middle way ?

Either way, I agree that this is considerably better than BG Who ever did although both Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy and the production teams ha at least started down this path before the end.

Thanks

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@scaryb

A curmudgeon (yes I checked the definition) is what I try to avoid being (sorry can’t help it – this form of ARSE seems to have crept up on me with age), but it isn’t how I see D10 at all. I thought this

The Tennant Doctor’s path was one of starting out thinking that the Time War was over, finished with, done. He could get on with his life and have fun with Rose. And then, as his incarnation ages, he finds out that the Time War isn’t finished. He can’t escape from it. He hasn’t got his pre-War touch somehow; he loses people he’s learnt to love, people and places from the War keep coming back to haunt him – and when he finally has to walk away and let people die in the proper Time Lord manner, he can’t. He goes mad instead (temporarily).

was a fair summary. Looking back, the D9/Rose and D10/Rose relationships were different from Doctor/Companion we have seen before (or after to be honest). Thinking about is Rose sacrifices herself to save D9 (and others) forcing D9 to sacrifice himself to save her giving the D10/Rose friendship a different sort of intensity than we have seen before (perhaps because David and Billie worked so well together and RTD scripted it to mean something more). Then, before its time, Rose is snatched away from D10 leading to the emotional scene at Bad Wolf Bay, where I always felt RTD meant for us to infer the emotional relationship was much deeper than it seemed to be on the surface.

Its easy for me to see that D10, wracked with guilt for not saving Rose, missing Rose deeply, blaming himself for his failure, with an inclination to travel alone now that deals with (yet to be a full) companion Martha dreadfully isn’t really a surprise. It feels right to me. After all when something similar happened with Donna, he reacts by travelling solo to avoid this chance of the situation happening again. I find this to be very compatible with how @bluesqueakpip describes his character. D10 is certainly a flawed troubled individual and carries his (I guess in his view) crime (ending the TimeWar)with him in a different way than D9, but its still there. It also seems to me that D11’s madman in a box characterization develops on D10’s character in a way that feels right.

The interesting thing, is that RTD and David Tennant don’t really give D10 a chance to redeem himself, in that he never overcomes the dark elements (if you call it that) in his personality. Conventional story telling would have him overcome his “flaws” and become a “complete” person before the end. Given a different medium (a 9 pm slot and an “adult” story line for example) I can see that RTD and David Tenant would have been given kudos by the serious drama critics in a way that they haven’t.

Of course, I’m picking the elements out of series 2 to 4 that seem to fit this narrative. I think that the full picture is more complex still (to the credit of RTD and DT and the rest), but this character narrative feels like its more than just wishful thinking on my part. This is not my forte at all 🙂 .

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

I think I would add a third thing, although its certainly ought to have less impact –  which is the story itself.

From my memory (not totally reliable) the character development rich stories in US equivalents such as Star Trek or Buffy have rather less or a simpler story rather the standard episodes giving them the screen time to develop the characters. Whilst I think we could all point to some “plot lite” Who stories, on the whole my impression is that Who tries to fit character development into standard episodes or into arc themed series ends. I’m not sure this has worked as well for Who with its shorter run (13 v 24 episodes). As you’ve rightly pointed out to me before, a lot can happen or be inferred from just a few lines of dialogue.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip @scaryb @Shazzbot

Excellent analysis, which rings very true for me. However, for me there is a different question at work here.

but at one point both Freema Agyeman and David Tennant said that the Doctor didn’t realise. Because if he had, his behaviour in The Shakespeare Code would have been very, very cruel.

I have little doubt that this was exactly what was intended by RTD/DT/FA. However, I think the problem for me was that I didn’t find this to be very credible at the time nor in hindsight. As Bluesqueakpip writes, this explanation would sit quite well with BG Who avoidance of the emotional side of things, but I don’t think it fits right with AG Who characterisation.

For me, RTD wrote the relationship with Rose (especially in series 2) quite differently. Whilst it may not have been a romance proper, it was certainly portrayed as being something more than just (close) friends. The whole scene at Bad Wolf Bay at the end of series 2, was meant to show the Doctor/Rose relationship was very different surely (which the Doctor pining for Rose in series 3 underlined) ?

Accordingly, for me, I don’t find the “Doctor wasn’t aware” really believable in hindsight. As we saw in series 4 when D10 foists the ersatz Doctor onto Rose in the other dimension and in series 6/7 with the Doctor’s relationship/marriage with River, The Doctor has an emotional depth and is more than capable of understanding the basics of a Human emotional relationship, even if the TimeLord equivalent is different. He may have been willfully blind to Martha’s feelings [perhaps understandably given his circumstances], but I don’t think that we can claim he wasn’t aware in AG Who.

I admit that I found the Doctor/Martha elements of early series 3 (and Doctor/Rose earlier) difficult to accept  – having been brought up on a more asexual BG Who – , but that has much more with my preconceptions of what the Doctor ought to be than anything else. I certainly didn’t like the way the Doctor treated Martha at the time and would have preferred that RTD had written in a way for the Doctor to deal with Martha differently than he did.

However, with hindsight, I rather find that the degree of cruelty that D10 showed to Martha in series 3 fits in with his character arc really quite well. For me, this is clearer now than it was at the time.

(Whether I’ve explained my point of view well enough is a different matter).

Nick

 

[Nick @replies]

@phaseshift

I pretty much agree with your description of DT’s time as D10. For me, the low key stories which generally had less Arc continuity were generally the best. I’m afraid I never appreciated RTD’s instinct for epic series endings including as many recurring characters as possible.

Even though the Tennant/Piper team was only 1 series long, the strength of their on screen relationship has certainly cast a long, deep shadow over AG Who, which continues to this date, with Billie Piper’s return in the Anniversary show. I don’t know what the numbers actually show, but my feeling is AG Who peaked in terms of public appreciation, that it hasn’t quite seen since.

Series 4 was definitely the best season in my opinion, although I think the best individual stories were in series 2 and 3. In hindsight, I wonder if David Tennant left a series too soon and just how much difference working for series 5 with Steven Moffat might have been on the overall legacy.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot @janetteb

I don’t think it would be a problem if the anniversary year ran from November 13 to October 14 (although it would be nice to have known before). However, if the anniversary starts in September and ends in November, that’s quite a different thing. Its rather looking like the BBC’s interpretation fits more into the September/November time window though ?

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@wolfweed

From your description, am I right to assume the first explosion is different from the second and that they’re not just the same event. Thanks for the new link. Having read that, It makes me wish I’d read all of the previous ones too.

Its hard for me to comment on the explosion itself, except that the strip states that the war-Tardis’s  are destroyed (presumably when the Doctor uses the MOMENT to enact the time-lock. I therefore suppose it makes sense that every Dalek and Timelord, ship and planet (etc) would be seen to explode as they left our universe.

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@wolfweed

I don’t know what the time table for producing this strip would be, but doesn’t the storyline (or at least the bits shown)rather need more direct input from the production team than just approval given the nature of the two pages your link reproduces ? Since it seems to confirm what (most of us) thought anyway re Hurt Doctor, this is “official” and therefore so is (presumably) the rest as well (that all the Time Lords are in the Matrix and that the Matrix isn’t on Gallifrey as its destroyed) leads you to ask just where is the Matrix stored ? (In the Tardis by any chance ?)

Since I don’t follow these, I have to ask those who know better, just how reliable is this ?

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck

Thanks. I understand now. What you say makes perfect sense, but you’re assuming its a one way trip. I would expect (if you had the technology) you could flip into and out of time. In that case, all of the possibilities remain open.

Thanks

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

No I’ve watched them. Since I live in Dubai, its quite late at night when I’m back in the UK usually months later and I freely admit to not picking up much of the detail as I have the sound low so as not to wake up my wife who isn’t interested in the show in the slightest. Not ideal conditions for remembering throw away one liners for me anyway.

I’m the first to admit that out friend Steven M can write in what he wants to as who the women in the shop is (or not at all or course). I have argued for River because I can see she has the means (I think), motive, ability and reason for her to put Clara and the Doctor in touch with each other right then (and not anytime in all of the previous regenerations) because she has enough future knowledge to know its time for this to happen. You suggest a reasonably convincing reason why it couldn’t have been River, but I’ve yet to read a specific reason why it must be X as opposed to Y because….

As to whether its critical or not, I agree it depends on how integral it is to SM’s plot arc resolution. The person may or may not be inter-changeable in that case and the explanation may be simple (eg please do this for me) or not.  I recall reading that SM himself say that he began thinking about the anniversary show 2 years ago (presumably 2011 around the time of season 6) so I’d venture a guess that the beginnings of the impossible girl arc go back at least that far.

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck

I’m a bit thick I think, but I don’t follow why you can’t use time travel as a weapon. The timelords/Daleks can have most or even all of their battles outside 3D space (and the rest of us observe nothing), but I don’t see why that stops the Daleks (or vice versa) using time travel itself to change events within the 3D universe. We certainly wouldn’t notice it if they did – our history and future would instantaneously rewrite itself to the new version.

In any major war against an equal enemy, you would fight in all of the mediums you’re technology made possible at the same time (ie for us Air, Land, Sea, Water, Space, Cyber-space, Propoganda warfare would all happen).

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck @Shazzbot

A few musings of my own on the definition question:

• We live in a Who universe with 4 known dimensions (3D space plus time). The time vortex is therefore (!?) just the time dimension itself, and is outside space. Therefore a battle/conflict between two vessels just in the Time dimension ought to have no effect on Space (although as time dimension exists in space, I cant be sure about thay hypothesis. [btw: in our own universe, I don’t think the guiding maths allows Time to be a dimension in its own right, more like a direction of travel – any theoretical physicists out there ?]
• Void space. I can only think this is the “something” into which the Universe is expanding. Most excepted mathematical models I’ve read about, assume the universe is a 3D Donut (technically a toroidal or flat ellipse shape I think). With the inflation model the big bang happens and expands (as a sphere I guess) at the speed of light (I guess) until inflation happens, when the universe expands at a faster and light rate (this slows down quite quickly although the universe is continuing to expand). The usual analogy is blowing up a balloon, but unlike earth where the balloon expands in air, the universe expands into nothing, in that whatever sits outside the outer membrane of the universe, we don’t see it, so its a nothing (rather than a something) medium.
• Multiverse type 1. Here there are multiple balloons, which may sit next to each other or be nested inside each other
• Multiverse type 2. Here there are more than 3 (4 in Who with time) dimensions although 3 (4) are visible to us. The other dimensions may be compressed or expanded, although since the universes overlap from a dimension point of view, they may all occupy the same space at the same time (ie our universe, x,y,z, t sits with another with x, y,a,t dimensions).. I rather think type 1 and 2 are or can be subsets of the same thing.
• Parallel universes. I believe there are solutions within quantum maths that notionally allow the same particle to be in the different places at the same time. Since quantum model relies on uncertainty and probability, you can notionally create an infinite number of parallel universes from each action. I’m afraid I did watch a great documentary that explained how this worked in English, but I admit I really cant remember the details anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure I’ve got the most important details wrong above, and will be very happy to be corrected ! Of course since Who is sci-fi any way you want to describe these things is 100 % valid.

Not sure whether this is helpful or not, but you’re post seemed to need something along these lines 😉

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@pedant @Shazzbot

There’s always a price to pay the Piper… Who: TNG would at least be better than Who: Enterprise surely ? (although I quite liked that from the little I saw)

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot

Yes, it doesn’t make much sense, but since we all think the Doctor is getting more regenerations soon (somehow) we’ll have D14, D15 etc etc so the original 13 incarnation limit will cease to matter. Assuming Hurt fits between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston, Matt will move from D11 to D12 and Peter Capaldi will fit in as D13. Of course, they may renumber him (new) D0 and start from scratch again just to make it a bit more complicated.

We’ll get used to it eitherway and then it will become a discussion point like those fans who see series 1 of AG Who as season 27 with BG Who numbers carrying on.

Probably

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

Running with your argument, then I agree Clara ought to have said something along the lines of “you’re familiar” at the beginning of the physic conference call, but I don’t think that’s necessarily definitive. Do we even know they could see each other (as opposed to feel their presence) ?

Assuming it isn’t River (or the Claire Bloom character) then if it is Rose, then how do you explain how this is possible ? Real Rose is trapped in the alternative universe with the Human-Doctor. Although the anniversary show happened in her past, just why would she act post Journey’s End (assuming D11 or Clara told her the exact time date place) and assuming human-Doctor could build a device to break through the to the real universe (the Torchwood device was able to do this pre Turn Left as the universe was on the point of destruction). The possibility is that Rose acts sometime before Army of Ghosts to pass on this message. Why would Clara or D11 (or D10 having been asked by D11) ask her to do this ?

For me, it doesn’t seem to fit into the Impossible girl/born to save the Doctor theme for Clara. Not because it couldn’t happen, but because everything Clara is before she enters the Doctors timeline appears to have been pre-destined (might I say planned ?). For example, lets say Amy had entered the Doctor’s timeline instead at Trenzalore (something I can easily envisage she would have done if she’d been there) – would Amy (or any other companion) say she’d been born to save the Doctor ? So why has SM chosen that phraseology ?

When Clara says “run you clever boy…and remember”, I keep hearing River’s voice in the first part of the sentence. I couldn’t find any reference to River describing the Doctor as a clever boy (although I seem to recall she did ?), but River certainly used the word “run” in reference to her and D11’s journeys together (and of course River’s run).

And then there is also this – In the Name of the Doctor, River is linked to Clara psychically. As she goes back to the library she says (thank you wiki quotes):

• River: There’s only one way I’d accept. If you ever loved me, say it like you’re going to come back
• The Doctor: Well then. See you around, Professor River Song
• River: Till the next time, Doctor
• The Doctor: Don’t wait up
• River: Oh, and there’s one more thing
• The Doctor: Isn’t there always?
• River: I was mentally linked with Clara. If she’s really dead, then how can I still be here?
• The Doctor: Okay. How?
• River: Spoilers! Goodbye, sweetie.

Then there is the symbolism. River was (lets say) born to kill the Doctor, whilst Clara is born to save the Doctor. In this they are a sort of mirror image of each other. The more I think about things given what I’ve read from the many contributors here, the more obvious it seems to become that SM has deliberately created this narrative symbolism between River and Clara and D11 journeys and that there he has a deeper (as yet unrevealed) concept at work here. Roll on November (but more likely series 8).

I haven’t read (that I recall) anyone linking River and Clara in this way here (or elsewhere), but if they have then I apologise for not referencing them here.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot @thommck @Madscientist72

I don’t think Hurt Doctor messes up the Doctor numbering at all. Hurt isn’t a “Doctor” by name, therefore whilst D11 may now be the 12th regeneration physically, he remains only the 11th Doctor. Very semantic I know, but that seems to be what SM has inferred (so far). We may find that it all rubbish of course in November ;).

Whilst I think the lack of D8 regeneration on screen makes the possibility of the Hurt Doctor being an older version of D8 an interesting possibility, but since D11 has denied him the name “Doctor”, and Paul McGann has been shown on screen as being a Doctor and Clara is aware of him (at least I guess his image was in the timeline we saw – I didn’t notice though) then I don’t think the on screen evidence really supports the hypothesis.

I think DHurt is most probably in the 2% of the Doctor’s mind that the Cybercontroller couldn’t access myself. I’m looking forward to see what explanation SM gives us for why Hurt’s doctor isn’t in the visible timeline. However, I wouldn’t find it very satisfactory if the answer turns out to be its time locked and inaccessible.  To the extent that you consider each regeneration of a timelord creates a distinct personality you can argue that the next regeneration isn’t responsible for the actions of the previous regeneration. Therefore if the Doctor timelocks all of the timelords who participated in the timewar (including himself), if you allow a way for your next self to be free of the timelock, why not do that for every other time lord ? Whatever, the timelords did during the TimeWra itself, as a speciies I think its safe enough to argue thatthey have been more of a force for good (or at least neutral) than the Daleks have ever been (even if the universe needs a balance of good and evil in it).

I also find the idea that the Doctor can timelock part of himself away, but locks all of the other timelords away simultaneously a bit silly :).

One last question. All of the timelords who had been eaten by the House in the Doctor’s Wife – was that before the timewar or afterwards ? There’s an interesting implication in the answer to that question surely ?

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@whisht

Sorry I’m not sure I can buy into that theory quite yet :). Even if D10 and Rose went to Trezalore and entered the tomb and then his timeline (after D11 and Clara) then I can’t see why D11 still doesn’t remember doing it in the past. He therefore still ought to remember everything which happens in the anniversary show (before it happens to D11). I can’t see how the sequence of entering his own timeline should make a difference to his own memories.

In my opinion, the problem with D10 entering his own timeline (as well as D11) is that D10 ought to become aware of his future and could seeing what happened to him (and D11) decide that he rather didn’t like the way it turned out and act to change his own future. His last words before regeneration made it clear it was too soon for D10. Most likely knowledge of his future would play on his mind until he snapped and acted to make it different. I think that’s the biggest single reason why the timelords prohibited meeting your future self (and if SM decided it could be a fixed point and the universe would end as well).

I think this is also a problem with D11 entering his own timeline. However, with the Hurt Doctor, he’s actually (probably)the 12th incarnation (and knows it) and he has already met (one possible ?) Doctor 13, and there’s a lot less he can do about it. Of course if the tomb is his real final one, then he ought to be aware of Doc PC and the others. We may or may not get an explanation for this.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Madscientist72

I try not to get too excited by what is or isn’t canon (and Who canon is litered with enough contradictions and inconsistencies in the first place). Contrary to the impression I might give, I’m up for show runners changing historical fact when it suits them (I just prefer they’d be honest and direct about it and provide a reasonably well thought through new version of continuity). I just admit I might not like it 🙂 .

I find it quite hard to envisage what a time war would look like. If you have weapons which will (say) destroy a star (and the timelords do) then at its most extreme your battle would be to go back in time and destroy the star before your foe’s society actually came into existence. At its least intrusive, I guess you use time travel to recruit agents of change to avoid certain historical events happening in the first place and defuse or change your foe into an ally (for example). That doesn’t feel like the sort of war the Daleks might get involved in, which (to me) seems like it ought to be more physical (and involve Dalek v proxy forces in direct conflict). I always wondered just how much Humanity got involved as well.

If you’re the timelords, surely your first defensive action would be to take your planet and species outside time itself so that you could never be touched directly. I really must get around to reading the D8 novels that deal with that range’s timewar and see how the authors thought it would work.

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck @Shazzbot @whisht

The problem I have with the Rose idea is that she’s supposed to be stuck in a different universe, which means that she has to find out while travelling with D10 (how !) or can now do something even the Doctor/Tardis can’t. In her previous return from the alt universe, the barriers were supposed to have been weaken due to Darkness falling (the Dalek universe destroying weapon) having been used.

In theory D11 already knows he met Rose with D10 (D10 presumably remembers meeting D11 – more on that in the next paragraph), but unless the Book of the Time War includes what happens in the anniversary show (and therefore D11 already knows ?), then it was written in D9 (?), D10 and D11’s past either by the Tardis/D9 or by the Hurt Doctor (or ANO).

To make things worse since D10 (with the Hurt Doctor and possibly D8 and D9) are in the anniversary show, D11 must remember what D10/Hurt Doctor remembers happened anyway (including what D11 did). That’s one big paradox anyway. So long it isn’t decided by SM to be a fixed point, presumably D11 is free to change his actions based on D10s memory of the events anyway (another potential paradox).

In theory (mine anyway) any history book will automatically change (or disappear) if you change the past anyway (as history has changed). So you have to postulate that since the book is in temporal grace, outside time, in the Tardis it ought to remain unchanged even if the events themselves are altered. Therefore there ought to be at least two editions of the History of the TimeWar  although they could be in the same book as different alternatives. I suppose the book could be written on psychic paper but that would mean you would read what you wanted to see most rather than what actually happened wouldn’t it ? One nasty thought just popped into my head regarding on the book (and the Library itself). Since the its a timelord “book” wouldn’t it need to access timelord memories stored in the Matrix (on Gallifrey or in the Tardis ?) to be complied in the first place ?

One last thought before my brain explodes (again) is that since Hurt Doctor is the Doctor physically (but not in name/action) then why didn’t Clara see him anyway since she saw the rest of his personal timeline [including the future probably]. You have to think that the GI couldn’t see HurtD either (or he/it would have attacked Hurt as well). This, I think, implies NONE of Hurt Doctor’s life/actions are recorded in the Doctors timeline (even though the Doctor remembers who he is/was and that he is part of the same personality). Another paradox ?

@bluesqueakpip or @Madscientist72 probably (I hope) have a theory or two which explains this which I can take as an aspirin 🙂 . I’m off for a coffee.

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot

If you get the chance you should try out Three Doctors, Deadly Assassin, War Games and perhaps Brain of Morbius. I never though much to Invasion of Time, but since its set on Gallifrey mostly I guess its relevant. I think you would have a very different impression from that the Time War Gallifrey AG Who showed. Think old Oxford college fusty with all in infighting between the Dons crossed with a motorway camera monitoring room…

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@tardisblue

Thanks. Interesting, but I don’t know if it wise to take the name that seriously, although you never know. I can see 23/11/63 and the use of Oswin/Oswald as being a piece of a school boy humour quite easily.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot @Madscientist72

Hmm. I don’t think the hypochondriac explanation really works for me from the little that was actually shown on screen in BG Who (and that wasn’t terrible consistent anyway). Early timelord society was definitely as cruel as any we see on Earth today (see the Death Zone in the Five Doctors) and was interested in colonization (see Underworld). Rasillon was meant to have created TimeLord society (as shown pre-TimeWar) and put an end to the nastiness of pre-timelord society. Of course during the time war, then the existential challenge the timelords faced allowed them to revert to their base nature.

A better analogy in some ways might be our current Hyper-power, the USA. From a militaristic stand point, the US could end the current regimes in Iran or North Korea with as much effort as it took to defeat Iraq in the first (and second) Gulf Wars. The problem with having that military might and a $1.2+ trillion dollar annual defence budget is that all the other factors at play make this an impossible thing to do. You are therefore left, like the US is today with secret operations (special forces) and secret surveillance (FBI, CIA, NSA and the whole list of other agencies) as your agents of change. This is simplistic of course.

I think the timelords can best be thought of along those lines. They had the ultimate power (as a species you could be written out of history at one extreme – literally killing billions of people in an instant) but were left with little ability to use that power whether due to moral or pragmatic reasons (chaos theory if you like – you solve one problem and create another one elsewhere as a result). Of course, any intelligent society would be aware that having that ultimate power has the ability to completely corrupt your society. Therefore timelord leadership would be forced to be constantly on its guard against itself for aberrant behaviour (eg Doctor, Master, Rani, Morbius etc) with real fear (especially after the Morbius crisis). I can imagine their society slowly becoming one where you didn’t really want to stand out from the norm to very much degree, with rigid control from the centre but with much of that control being self imposed and of course a corrupt elite. North Korea might be a good analogy today for example.

MadScientist72 – the infertility issue is set at the heart of timelord society in the Doctor7/Virgin New Adventures series. If you haven’t read it Marc Platts novel “Lungbarrow” might be of interest (if you can find it). I’m not so sure I agree with your statement that they wouldn’t count the otherside’s casualties. Why not ? – we did up to and including Viet-Nam (we did in the Falklands war afterwards for example and its “good” PR to show the other side is hurting more than you are in a war with mass casualties). One reason the US/NATO doesn’t now is that the casualty ratios are far too embarrassing for our current society to face up to (and we still have plenty of unofficial ones anyway). In any case, I don’t remember the line, but I expect the Doctor said it or it was in the voice over. It could just be his personal estimate or a statement of fact in  way of explanation and talking about the entirety.

Interesting subject, that I’m sure there’ll be many different views.

Nick

 

[Nick @replies]

so interesting (well I thought so) I posted it twice since I couldn’t see it had been mentioned elsewhere on here. As ever, apologies if it has)

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/aug/08/doctor-who-role-black-actor

Nick

[Nick @replies]

Hi all

anyone else noticed this from Neil Gaiman ?

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/aug/08/doctor-who-role-black-actor

Nick

 

[Nick @replies]

@osakahatter

Yip most of your points have crossed my mind too. Actually I rather think most of the 450 D2 years sat with D1’s incarnations, before he got involved with the universe.

I certainly think its possible, even likely that SM will get rid of the limit problem, but I rather think (well prefer) he avoids giving the Doctor an unlimited number as that weakens the regeneration concept that the 13 incarnations implies. Another 12 regeneration cycle would solve the problem (making the Doctor on 13 or of 26 possible with PC and Hurt included) for the forseeable future. With River’s share, he probably gained 10 regenerations anyway, so I rather like a throw away line along the lines of “shucks I don’t know how many I have left now, what with the effect of all that Time Travel plus River’s help”. That avoids the problem in a neat way, increases the dramatic tension with each future regeneration (a bit) and leaves the field open for bonkers theorists !

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@osakahatter

Hi there. My idea was a bit less subtle than that. My thinking was that once in the time line, Clara volunteers to look after all of the TimeLord Children for the Doctor, therefore creating two types of Claraicle (which I thought to be unlikely, which is why I like but doubt the idea that  timelord children are involved at all). Using your idea, the Doctor only need place each timelord child in a location where an existing GI nullifying Claraicle already exists. That works better as an idea for sure and fits into the idea that D10 and D11 combined redeem Hurt Doctor’s “not in the name of the Doctor” act [whatever it turns out to be].

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

Ok that’s a fair point, but she was given the number before the “conference call” and there can be no guarantee that Clara would actually remember exactly who gave her the number of an IT support line even if she met her later on (I wouldn’t – would you ? in the circumstances).

I think River is the most likely candidate as she had knowledge of the Doctor’s timeline and ability and reason to put Clara onto the right path. I agree its hard to quite fit this into what we see of River’s time line, but we do know River has met several versions of the Doctor and is possible she has met Peter Capaldi Doctor before she met David Tennant Doctor at the Library.

In my opinion, the problem with Rose or Sarah-Jane (or any companion actually) doing it is that you have to invent a scenario whereby they get knowledge of exactly who Clara is and her future role with D11 subsequent to their own time travelling with the Doctor and then go back to 2012 (?) London, search Clara out and then be in the right place at the right time.

Of course SM is quite capable of having the Doctor leave a message for an ex-companion to do this for him, but its a pretty convoluted explanation. It would actually be easier for the Doctor to arrange this directly himself (future female Doctor anyone ?) or he could of course just have convinced (conditioned might be a better word) the shop worker to give that number to Clara when she meets her.

Its just as easy I think for a 70+ something year old future Clara to hand herself the number which is why I don’t think you can  rule that possibility out, although its a long shot. And No I doubt think you would automatically recognize a 50+ older version of yourself if you met either. I think, hmm she looks a bit like my mum or dad would be what most of us would think 🙂 .

The problem with this sort of theorizing, is that you can explain most things if you put your mind to it, which I admit is why I prefer to read than write !

Thanks for the info on Clara’s name origin. I didn’t know that Any idea where Oswin or Oswald comes from ?

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot @osakahatter

Hi there. These are my thoughts on this thorny subject (as of today; I promise to change my mind tomorrow and I blame the sheer number of bonkers ideas I’ve read on here. I also don’t pretend any originality of thought either).

The universe already has 1 (near) immortal – Captain Jack. Of you think about what happened to him (Buried under Cardiff for 100 or so years, buried in concrete for a few days or exposed to the time/space vortex clinging onto the Tardis where he perpetually suffocates, dies and is reborn in an almost perpetual cycle lasting a few minutes) then without a regeneration limit of some sort, you could easily end up quite insane (surprising Captain Jack didn’t really).

BG Who has the timelords execution method being total molecular disintegration, which suggests its really difficult to kill a timelord (if you can regrow an arm a few days after regeneration, why not a head or pretty much  a whole new body and this was for a single regeneration. By the way, I think that also explains why a properly trained time lord can change their appearance after a regeneration if they so choose without a further regeneration).

If you make the assumption that the timelords modified themselves to create the ability to regenerate (given that exposing a foetus to the time/space vortex inside the Tardis is enough to do that for a Human) then it makes a lot of sense that you’d build in a limit in my opinion just to avoid the risk of ending up like Captain Jack.

There is also the question of just how long a TimeLords’ life duration is for each regeneration. Doctor 2 claims to be about 450 years old (Tomb of the Cybermen) and as we know he is forcibly regenerated early by the TimeLords in War Games. I think we can estimate that for the average timelord sitting at home a 350 year per regeneration is a reasonable minimum estimate. That gives you a 4,500 year long life. That’s plenty for your average arm chair loving timelord surely ?

The one thing that I think seems to be clear is that regeneration is based on an energy source (referred to as Artron Energy in BG Who not sure about AG Who) each timelord has (at birth ? – although since Tardis seem to be involved somehow, I suppose its possible that it can be topped up during Tardis travel as the creation of River’s ability to regenerate rather implies as well). Given that River gifted the Doctor her remaining energy (Let’s Kill Hitler) and the involvement of the Tardis (given the Doctor as the most time travelled individual ever), I think its fairly safe to imply that the 12 regeneration only limit no longer applies to the Doctor surely ? Of course, this doesn’t stop SM fixing it in a more permanent way, but it doesn’t feel like its the most difficult issue right now. For me, seeing how SM will bring back the TimeLords or fix the Hurt Doctor’s “not in the name of the Doctor” action to alleviate his guilt and “fix” his psychological problem seems like the real continuity eraser question ?

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@janetteb @Shazzbot @bluesqueakpip @htpbdet @Madscientist72 @osakahatter

As much as I like the idea that each Claraicle is guarding a hidden TimeLord child (anything is possible after all), I thought each Claraicle came into existence to halt/negate some form of GI interference in the Doctor’s timeline ? Do we then have to postulate that there are two different types on Claraicle ? Whilst each Claraicle was created when Clara prime entered the Doctor’s timeline as a voluntary action on her part, would even the Doctor at his most indifferent actually accept a second use for each Claraicle ? (even assuming it was a voluntary self less act). If the doctor has indeed saved some/all TimeLord Children from the Destruction of Gallifrey, we have to assume either Hurt Doctor did it or D10 and D11 will do it with the help (or not) Hurt Doctor during the Anniversary show (Christmas special perhaps).

The Davids/Susan/Ellie photos are indeed remarkably similar – both in style and appearance. You have to think SM et al have done this deliberately (of course it doesn’t mean it isn’t a red herring to catch Eagle Eyed Bluesqueakpip out 🙂 ).

Although a Doctor 11/River offspring is possible, it does seem a big stretch to me that this child is Ellie or Ellie’s mum. I think even SM with his love of convoluted story lines would think this is a stretch too far. This doesn’t seem like the right sort of character story arc for Clara.  In any case, The Doctor would have to be pretty delinquent not to know one of his own direct relations when he meets her.

Actually, why not postulate that Ellie is the original David/Susan’s offspring in the first place and that she was saved by D8, Hurt Doctor or Susan herself ? That actually makes as much sense as the Doctor/River child idea. The only downside I can see is that almost all the casual AG Who viewers (not fans) have a limited to no idea who Susan is in the first place.

I can currently think there of five credible ideas for how Clara get’s the Tardis’ phone number in the shop:

1. The mystery woman (Doctor’s mother or whatever she is)
2. River herself
3. Rose. I’m not actually sure how this would work, but I suppose there’s a possibility that Rose could have done it on one of her visits to London with D10 after she meets Clara in the anniversary show. I agree none of the other companions seem likely options;
4. Susan herself (a bit out there, but why not ? I agree its hard to work out how though) and
5. Clara herself

Actually I suppose the mystery women could actually be Susan. Personally I think River is currently the most likely candidate.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@osakahatter

What would bother me more if Susan turned out to be Clara’s mother would be

1) her travelling back from the future (assuming David has died of old age) so from around 2225 to before 1995 and falling for Clara’s father (I don’t think this could happen if she was fob watched) and

2) The Doctor failing to recognize/sense another Timelord when he sees one

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@Shazzbot @bluesqueakpip @thommck

I always thought there was a general consensus that the Older (looking) female TimeLord we saw in the End of Time was the Doctors mother and the younger covered one was probably a relation (I suppose Mother/Sister/Wife/Daughter might apply to one or both of them given apparent age isn’t a factor). I wouldn’t be at all surprised if their relationship with the Doctor isn’t dealt with at the same time as Clara, although we can’t be sure of course. However, I think it may not be correct to assume that Clara’s arc will be dealt with this year. I’m sure I read one of the links attached to Doctor 12 thread saying that Jenna had been surprised into confirming the Clara’s arc would continue into series 8.

Although I understood the narrative reasons, I’ve always thought it surprising (and rather unfair) that just about every significant Dalek (ie the Cult of Skaro, Davros, Dalek Emperor for sure) survived the Time War unscathed to show up in AG Who, but no Time Lord apart from the Master survived outside Gallifrey. Its quite possible that there may be other hidden TimeLords if that ‘s what Steven Moffat wants.

However, it doesn’t seem feasible to me that either of the Doctor’s Mother/Wife/Daughter (or whatever RTD meant them to be) can be amongst them as they were clearly trapped on Gallifrey. However, we did see that the “Mother” figure could manifest herself outside the TimeLock anyway. She could therefore have acted to point Clara in the right direction in the shop.

Since this is bonkers theory land, why not assume Hurt Doctor only played the baddy during his “not in the name of the Doctor” action and actually went on to save some Time Lords (maybe the Children by hiding them on Earth as apparent normal human children – I like your narrative idea around the children Bluesqueakpip) but buried the memory so deeply that subsequent Doctors don’t know he did it. You therefore have a Hurt Doctor redemption story in the anniversary show so that Hurt Doctor becomes a proper Doctor by name as well. Of course this can still be true because of the effect of D10 and D11 has on rewriting Hurt Doctor’s role in the Time War.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@janetteb

I was never any good at humour 🙂

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

Ah Edward De Vere. Wonderful man, knew him well as PC might (have to) say (well in he movie anyway).

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@jimthefish

Well I might give you that one. Rory wasn’t the father after all then ?

You better delete this afterwards as a moderator  🙂

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick

not sure you meant ganger though 🙂 I had quite a laugh at the Urban Dictionary definition

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick

well Ron Weasley (sorry Rupert) should be about the right minimum age next regeneration although it depends if he can tear himself away from Emma Watson (sorry Hermione).

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@scaryb

🙂 I’m aware of that one (and posted as much before I read your post). I suppose what pisses me off really is if SM or anyone show runner wants to bring in these or similar concepts, then in my opinion, just do it. I or others might hate it, but then so what. I’ll live with it probably. What annoys me is making small scale unexplained changes (like River’s conception) which opens a huge can of worms without actually bothering (so far anyway) to even pretend to explain it. Rant over.

@bluesqueakpip

I was thinking what was probably possible right now or taking todays’ concepts out 30 to 50 years. Beyond that who knows ? I agree you can hypotheses pretty much anything you want to in Sci-Fi.

You remember way way too much Who history for my good ! 🙂

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick

🙂 Human/TimeLord DNA similar. Don’t get me started or I’ll be (nicely I hope) be disagreeing with @bluesqueakpip again, although as @jimthefish will probably pop up and tell us, its long been a fan concept that humans evolved from Timelords (or vice versa)

Cheers

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@jimthefish

We’ll see next summer I guess whether River will be back or not. I rather thought the way the River/Doctor departure was handled would count against anything happening soon, but I guess you can argue that she was saying goodbye to 11 rather than the Doctor.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick

There may have been (in some opinions its a certainty) interbreeding on a small scale between Homo Sapiens Neaderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but if it did happen it would have been between two versions of essentially the same species or between two very closely related species.

Whilst I don’t conceptually discount any close relationships between Humans and sentient non-Humans, the creation of viable cross specie hybrids would probably be impossibly difficult outside a laboratory. The laboratory creation of a pig/human hybrid as envisaged in Daleks of Manhatten for example will probably be possible eventually as we share elements of DNA in common (and that’s why we might be able to bring back wooly mammoths before then). With Aliens who knows ? One might assume the chemistry around life (RNA/DNA etc) might be quite similar, but if the chirality for example was different (we have right handed spiraling DNA, so that would be with a species with a left handed spiral in the chemical structure) I guess it might be impossible anyway.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck

I think even he might draw the line at all that underwater action

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

Certainly have when it comes to that sort of behavior 🙂 At least we might be getting the Paternoster gang as companions is Series 8. That should be interesting I think.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@thommck

He’s not “people” though. It’s like saying you could fall in romantic love with a Dolphin 🙂 Otherwise I’ll shut up on that topic.

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick

I’m not so sure that 1960’s or 70’s production teams wouldn’t have hired Peter Capaldi if he had existed at the time. I think its more pertinent to say that he almost certainly wouldn’t have become an actor given where he was born (in what would have been 1910 to 1920). Just look at William Hartnell’s early life (its more Capaldi-esque than you might think) and consider would he have been able to achieve what he did today ?

I think the  particular change you are referring to comes about post 1945 and the rapid widening/development of British society that’s happened since then. I for example was born in a smallish manufacturing town in 1965 and was the first generation of my family (along with some cousins) to have gone to University, and even then was in a small minority of school friends who did so. In fact I fear we have rather gone backwards as a society since then, but that’s a different discussion.

@scaryb as well

I think commentators have rather forgotten just how much British society has changed in the last 50 years. In the 1960s we were a very racist, very sexist and very homophobic society. Today we are considerable less racist, less sexist and less homophobic, even if we still have a long way to go on those fronts. I saw an interesting documentary that claimed any society needed three generations (what roughly 75 years) to thoroughly change its state. I think this is broadly right and that we are only 2/3 of our way the thorough modernisation we are undertaking (and we’re ahead of much of Europe and probably the US on that journey). Certain commentators, let’s call some of them feminists, would like Who to be on the cutting edge of that change process and can’t see why we shouldn’t have a female and/or different coloured actor play the lead part. For others (SM himself maybe) it doesn’t feel right. I am not entirely sure I would like to see a female Doctor, but I cant provide any credible reason for that opinion. On reflection I would rather have liked SM to have challenged my pre-conceptions of what would work (and actually prefer that to some of the other things he dropped I !).

@jimthefish as well

I rather think there will be something of a backlash against PC in the next 18 months as I rather suspect he will emphasize some elements of the Doctor’s character he sees in previously portraits and add his own component in a way that some of us won’t like (ignoring the ARSEs who will always find something they don’t like). But unless he really hates the shooting schedule and the other BS which comes with the role then I think he’ll be around for at least two seasons, if not three.

Nick

 

[Nick @replies]

@miapatrick @scaryb

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/peter-capaldi-doctor-who

To some extent you get the opposite opinion here. Ethnic minority means in the UK of course. I think it is a fair question to ask why white male only casting and no females or persons of other skin colour as we live in a different society today than we did when the character was created. I’m not sure there is a satisfactory answer to that question other than to say that is the way the character was created and we’re not ready (creatively) to make such a fundamental change just yet. However, I think its just as valid to ask why should the Doctor be portrayed by an ethnic minority female to counter-point that strain of opinion.

I think the best thing to do is to ignore media and ARSE fan comment. I think its fine to say (for example) SM’s plot arc are too opaque and not properly developed in my opinion and have a debate, but we live in a shouty extrovert media world right now where its become the norm to shout your opinions as fact, simplify and exaggerate (if not down right lie) shout down and intimidate people with different opinions (they’re opponents after all).

Nick

[Nick @replies]

@scaryb

I’m not assuming the Clara/PC relationship will be a problem. In fact I think the opposite will be true for Clara (because her time spent with D11).

My question or contention is that since its now effectively programmed into AG Who that the new young female companion to fancy the Doctor (they all have apart from Donna), how do you deal with that dynamic in the future with PC (or a female Doctor if we ever get one) and the post Clara companion ? Pretend it doesn’t happen ? You can deal with it in the way you describe, but then what happens when we revert to a younger male (or female) Doctor again. Does the romance come back ?

My opinion is that it would have been better to avoided the problem from the outset by making it clear with Rose that any romantic liaison just wasn’t going to happen in the first place, rather than RTD writing the D10/Rose love story and following up it with Series 3 with Doc 10 pining for Rose while Martha pines for him.

The point with River, is that the relationship makes much more sense (they are alike in many ways) from a character narrative unlike any of the previous cases.

Thanks

Nick

[Author]

Posts