General Open Thread – TV Shows (2)

[Kharis @kharis]

I’m going through DW withdrawals.  How is everyone else holding up?  Ready for Christmas?  *Sigh*

[Missy @missy]

@kharis

You and me both! It feels like an age since the Christmas special.

Trouble is, I’m tending to wish my life away, what with the above and Sherlock around the same time.

*big sigh of resigantion*

 

Missy

[Anonymous @]

Speaking of waiting, I did not get to see season 9 until May, after which I finally had the opportunity to catch up from the last two episodes of Tennant up until the end of Matt Smith. Currently, I am about half way through season seven I think. I just saw the Christmas special where Clara joins the Doctor, last night, in fact. Hence, I guess I have a little way to go yet before I run out.

[Missy @missy]

I couldnt paste your name  stichintime.

At least you have something to keep you going.

Ttfn

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy
I couldnt paste your name stichintime.

That has happened to me a few times on here as well, with other people’s.

Yes, it’s certainly giving me another way to pass the time, a nice change from the same old, same old. 🙂

I saw, “The Bells of St. John,” “The Rings of Akhaten,” “Cold War,” and “Hide,” last night and I am still confused about who Clara really is and am looking forward to finding out. Clara seems to be quite a plucky gal, right from the start. I noted how in, “The Rings of Akhaten,” the Doctor just seemed to suddenly vanish and let her wander off on her own, and I’m not sure I understand that bit.

[Missy @missy]

stitchintime : I wonder why yours wont’ take?

The Doctor knows his companions and knew he could trust Clara not to get into trouble – well, that’s my theory anyway. *grins*

 

ttfn

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy
I don’t know what’s up with my name. As far as Clara is concerned, well, that is, until she went too far–but that’s later, much later.

[nerys @nerys]

Bawled my eyes out over Penny Dreadful tonight. Haven’t been moved like that by a television show in ages. (Even our dear old Doctor … which has come close on a number of occasions.) Enough said.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nerys   Wish I felt the same, but instead I was let down by the final two-parter.  It felt rushed and rather chaotic to me, and I am so weary of the exceptionally gifted woman of strong will and character sacrificing herself and leaving the men who were swept away by her mournfully grieving and then resolving to get on with their lives.  True to period, mind, but just — irritating as Hell.

And other stuff, but never mind: it clearly worked for you, so maybe better to leave it there.

[nerys @nerys]

@ichabod You are not alone. I’m reading many reactions which are similar to yours. And reactions similar to mine. Clearly there’s a split of opinion. Which is fine. For me this worked, but obviously for others it didn’t.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nerys  Ye gods, why are we still allowed on the internet?  Anywhere else, we’d be trying to tear each other’s throats out over the ending of Penny Dreadful (or something else equally ephemeral and largely weightless).

Not really laughing.  A pal of mine with an unsettling habit of being right about the future said to about 2 weeks ago, “We’ve got about 4 yrs of chaos ahead of us, before things settle down.”  In four years, I’ll be 82, for cripes’ sakes, so that hardly signifies for me; unless, of course, the Trump monster becomes US President, in which case my blood pressure will kill me long before the end of another four years of downright lunatics and imbeciles running the world.

[nerys @nerys]

@ichabod So true. The willingness to agree to disagree is in short supply on the Internet, and elsewhere. I’ve seen enough flame wars to don my flame-retardant suit (even though I know none is needed here).

Staying with what transpired on Penny Dreadful, I guess I felt that the ending followed the overarching theme of this season: how the Victorian era dragged so many women, including extremely capable women, through the dirt and ground them into submission … one way or the other. A possible allegory, I thought, is that this is an outcome from horrific “treatment” (and I use that term very loosely) of mental illness. For me those ideas were intertwined throughout this entire season. So I would expect that anyone wanting Vanessa to emerge victorious from this would be bitterly disappointed. Certainly a part of me was hoping for that, but given the way the series was headed this season (especially when we got that little ray of hope at the end of the season opener, which I felt certain was a red herring), I wasn’t holding out any hope. For me, this was what was so powerful. This is what the world did to women. Still does, in many cases.

As for the horrors of the real world … ugh. I can’t even imagine Trump as president, yet it could possibly become a reality. Quite frightening, and this is coming from a U.S. citizen. I’m relieved to be living in the relative sanity north of that border.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nerys   Oh, there are lots of sane people in the States who share my feelings about the political scene, including (it seems) some self-styled “conservative” big mouths (latest, George Will, one time political columnist and backer of the very Rethug strategy that has brought us Drumpf; he has announced that he’s leaving the Thug party because he can’t stand it any more — as if he had never been complicit, the miserable fucker) are making lots of look-at-me-coming-to-my-senses noise right now as they withdraw their previously enthusiastic support of the Killer Klown Show of Thug politics.  How it will work out at the election itself is unpredictable, except that even a centrist Democrat like H. Clinton won’t be able to budge anything if the Thugs retain a majority in Congress sufficient to block appointments etc.  In that case, nothing will change: just more chaos.  I don’t like to think about it, but can’t stop thinking about it for long.

Re: Penny Dreadful.  Yes, I do see the point of the theme of the story being the limitation and distortion of women’s lives by male domination in forms still with us now.  I was horrified to see, though, how many fans of the show commented online about how the outcome was such a wonderful, romantic ending, what with Vanessa’s noble sacrifice for all the mournful men and the future of the world, as in people saying she became a female Jesus figure — as if that were not just okay but admirable and a deeply fulfilling tale.

This evidence, as I take it, of the persistence of these attitudes about women’s only heroism being in self-sacrifice for others I found very depressing, given that I saw no comments that I can remember along the lines of your excellent analysis — except here.

There were other problems, though, story problems, that disappointed me (I think I mentioned some of them in a comment somewhere above — poor structure and pacing, mainly) as well.  But maybe I’ll watch it again some time and come out feeling differently, so thanks for your comments.

[nerys @nerys]

@ichabod I didn’t see it as being such a wonderful, romantic ending. Not at all. I found it tragic, and a huge loss of someone who had so much worth, so much to give.  I also saw the ending as an indictment of mental health “care” at that time, and also Victorian society’s treatment of women. I didn’t see any real redeeming feature in it, other than that Vanessa was finally at peace. The tragedy is that this is what it took to give her that peace.

I know the story was about Vanessa saving the world by sacrificing herself, but for me the other layers were more powerful, and captured my attention far more. The thing is, once you release a piece of art out into the world, it goes from being a form of self-expression to being interpreted by others. What it is is whatever people interpret it to be. In some ways that’s wonderful, but in other ways it can be very strange to hear or read others’ take on the same work. Come to think of it, it can be strange to hear or read the creator’s take on it. There have been many times when I’ve read a writer talking about something s/he’d written, after I read it, and then thinking, “Oh. So that’s what was going on. I had no idea!”

[TOSK @tosk]

Bred from two warrior races: Mankind and Womenkind?
Will stand in the ruins of Gallifrey: And restore it?
Unravel the Web of Time: What is a web if not a trap. Who is trapped?
Destroy a billion billion hearts to heal it’s own: Who has a billion billion hearts?
How many Hybrids do you count?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Has anyone here in the UK been watching The Living and the Dead?  The first episode was broadcast last Tuesday on BBC 1, but all six are available as a box set on i player and  I watched them over the last couple of days as a welcome and absorbing alternative to contemplating the aftermath of the referendum.

It is a ghost story written by Ashley Pharaoh (Life on Mars; Ashes to Ashes) and directed by Alice Troughton (no relation) who directed The Doctor’s Daughter and Midnight, as well as episodes of Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures.  There are echoes of MR James and of Thomas Hardy – Far from the Madding Crowd in particular – which Pharaoh has mentioned as being sources of inspiration, as well as something of Nigel Kneale, and it is filmed in a very cinematic way, both evocatively beautiful and creepily atmospheric.  The story itself is convoluted enough to have come from the pen of Moffatt,  and even at the very end, just when it seems as if all has been resolved, there is a truly shocking twist which, only with hindsight, would anyone realise had been prefigured by a blink-and-you-missed it image.  I recommend it.

The title music is The Lyke Wake Dirge, which in itself always gives me the shivers.

[Anonymous @]

@tosk

I count one hybrid -I could go all “dictionary definition” on you -but I’ll spare you that! 🙂

@mudlark -no I haven’t heard of this. I want to see it – we are in creepy mode on telly and DVD at the moment having watched some mad horror movies -believe me these are not subtle by any means but it’s the culchure thingy of American horror – fun stuff! (and entirely different to your series)

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@mudlark I read the article about The Living and the Dead on the Guardian and am looking forward to watching it. Sounds very interesting indeed. Just what I need to cheer me up after our election. (Though the results are much as expected and hopefully an improvement on what we have had for the past three or so years.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros]

@mudlark @janetteb

I’m away just now so I had to record the series (I’ll let you know what I think of it once I’ve watched it though it might be quite sometime before I watch it all)

I’ve been looking forward to it as it seems like just the sort of programme I love, just hoping that Mark Gatiss will revive A Ghost Story For Christmas again soon.

[1997whovian @1997whovian]

Is anyone here watching the musketeers?

[Missy @missy]

1997Whovian. We watched the first series, but stopped after Peter Capaldi left. It isn’t my favourite decade.

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@mudlark   I hope Living & Dead is shown here, too — my husband and I both loved Life on Mars, found it wonderfully refreshing, so anything by the same writer is of great interest to me!  Is this a one-off show, mini-series, or some other format?

[Arbutus @arbutus]

I saw this and was reminded of some conversation here recently about Xena.

Arnold is still Terminator at 68
Harrison is still Solo at 73
Why are they recasting Xena and Gabrielle at only 40? pic.twitter.com/z788Z1bqSy

— Brianna Wu (@Spacekatgal) December 9, 2015

[ichabod @ichabod]

@arbutus  Why are they recasting Xena and Gabrielle at only 40?

We know why.  But we don’t need feminism any more, right?

 

 

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod

Back when I had the ‘courage’ to read comments from The Guardian, our own Brisbane papers, or even worse, you tube comments, I was astonished to witness a backlash to everything gained by women for women (and many men): I read scathing comments about “feminazis” and “whores” -quite a few written by women. It was shaming and terrifying.

The casting of young women in roles like this isn’t surprising. Sad but not a surprise. It was interesting @arbutus to see that tweet.

PuroSolo

[ichabod @ichabod]

@puroandson  I think we’re all getting surprise-proof when it comes to the ferocity of the backlash against so much of the progress of the pas 50 yrs . . . should have expected it, I guess.  I just keep expecting adult people in general to be a little more adult, but am always disappointed.  I hope I get to see the reverse set in again.

Patience.  Long view.  So difficult.

[TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros]

I just bought the 1970s BBC series “Survivors” by Terry Nation (a name familiar with all Doctor Who fans I’m sure) and was just wandering if anyone had heard of it, I’ve only watched the first episode and thought I’d ask if anyone had seen it before and did you enjoy it?

Also, @mudlark @janetteb I’m a bit late but I thought I’d tell you that I’ve started watching The Living and The Dead and I’ve reached episode 3. It’s very good so far, could be scarier but that’s not a big complaint and I think episode 3 has been the best so far, which means it’s getting even better! I’m taking a long time to watch it though because of all the other stuff I’m watching right now but I might just finish it by 2025!

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@thedentistofdavros

Survivors

Some of us are old enough to have seen it first time round! Definitely worth watching.

There is a 2012-ish remake with Frema Agyeman in the first ep – but after that I bailed out for reasons that I won’t spoil (because I know not everyone agreed).

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod
I think we’re all getting surprise-proof when it comes to the ferocity of the backlash against so much of the progress of the pas 50 yrs . . . should have expected it, I guess. I just keep expecting adult people in general to be a little more adult, but am always disappointed. I hope I get to see the reverse set in again.

Patience. Long view. So difficult.

Well, given that as far as I can figure, oppression of women is probably at least 10,000 years old, I think that we might expect that eliminating that completely could take a while. I could be wrong of course, but one possible advantage of looking at it that way (even if it may not be entirely accurate) is that those of us looking forward to the end of oppression might be able to see this as a temporary setback in our aspirations and as well as exercising patience (or perhaps something more akin to endurance), not be too discouraged but instead to continue or even increase our efforts toward that goal. Just a thought, but of course it is not easy, particularly if one or one’s loved ones are the ones having to endure, defend against or seek help to combat this sort of abuse.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@stitchintime oppression of women has ebbed and flowed. It has always been there but it has certainly not been a case of steady progress and the further back you go the worse it gets as many assume. It also varies greatly between societies. Scandinavian cultures for instance seem to have always been more equal. Back in Viking days the women were left in charge while the men went off “viking”. The Icelandic Sagas show that women managed properties etc. Also oft forgotten but there were women rulers, (albeit rare) in Saxon England. Women had higher legal status in Saxon Britain than in Norman Britain. I am afraid that it is not a simple matter of natural progression.

There is far too much complacency as well at present and tying this back to Who, it annoys me whenever  I read remarks claiming that AG companions are feisty and independent but BG companions were all screaming and pathetic. I still think one of the strongest companions that has ever taken up residence in the Tardis was Barbara, series one 1963. Her grimace every time she was expected to do the cooking said it all.

which reminds me, really must start watching some BG Who, starting with a story with Barbara and Ian, just to prove my point. Oh and Susan screamed a lot too. (In reference to the discussion on the Companions thread.)

Cheers

Janette

[Missy @missy]

Has anyone seen The Living and the Dead?  We have heard conflicting opinions about it.

Missy

[TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros]

@pedant

I had heard of the 2012 remake but I thought I’d prefer the original. I might get it once I’ve finished the original, not sure. Good to hear that you regard it highly.

[Anonymous @]

@janetteb
“oppression of women has ebbed and flowed.”

Yes, actually, that is what I was trying to say, but perhaps I did not express it as clearly as I thought.

“There is far too much complacency as well at present and tying this back to Who, it annoys me whenever I read remarks claiming that AG companions are feisty and independent but BG companions were all screaming and pathetic.”

I agree with that too. It seems to me that it varies a lot, both then and now.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@stitchintime Indeed and what is so bad about screaming anyway? It is after all an instinctive human response to danger and I am certain we might all be guilty of screaming if we were confronted with some of those Who monsters. After all bubble wrap the size of a house, who wouldn’t make a bit of noise on confronting that. 🙂

Have just watched episode three of the Living and the Dead and really enjoying it. My s/o is not convinced as yet, partly I suspect because it sets the scientist up as wrong but that has to be a basic premise of ghosts stories and I dispute that he is wrong but doing just what a good scientist should do in the circumstances, observing and analysing the evidence before him. I suspect I also feel “at home” in the world depicted being a fan of Thomas Hardy. It is essentially “Far From the Madding Crowd” with ghosts, (not a bad thing.).

Cheers

Janette

[ichabod @ichabod]

@janetteb  Hardy + ghosts?  Where can I find this show?!

[Missy @missy]

@janetteb

I hope to see this soon. Didn’t you find Thomas Hardy depressing? Jude the Obscure was anything but enjoyable.

Missy

 

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@janetteb  Depressing?  You want depressing?  Anybody here watching a UK show called “River”, with Stellan Skarsgard as a detective in modern London trying to find out who shot his (probably unreliable) partner dead in the street.  Ghosts keep showing up, various dead folks (including the dead partner) — and not only do they not tell him secrets, they LIE to him!  That is, as projections of his own ideas of them, they tend to give voice to his own basest suspicions and distortions.

Now, that’s depressing, IMO.

 

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod

Blimey – you’re right, that is depressing – and yet you kept watching?

I’ve heard most of Hardy’s work and all of it is depressing. Not just my opinion either. It’s a shame, because he could

tell a good tale.

Missy

[janetteB @janetteb]

@missy. I disagree. Far from the Madding Crowd has a happy ending. Ok after that he piles on the tragedy but I find his works sad not depressing. I do think he tends to overdo it with Jude but I am fond of the novel if only because I scored an A for a third year history essay on it. (Subject was Victorian culture.) I also really love the first half of “Jude”. Hardy’s anarchic thinking certainly influenced me as a teenager when I first discovered and fell in love with his writing. I think the landscape also has something to do with it, as well as his evocation of the pre industrial way of life. Also, and this is a big also, he is one of the very few English authors who writes about “ordinary” people, ie working people. If you can look for a British TV version of Far From the Madding Crowd made in 1998. I watch it when I feel in need of cheering up. I’m not sure about the recent film. Have read very mixed reviews of it.

Cheers

Janette

[Missy @missy]

@janetteb  Far from the Madding Crowd, is probably the most cheerful of his writing I agree, but the rest?

We didn’t cover Hardy at school, I discovered him afterwards.

He was undoubtedky a good writer, but much too dour for me.

Dickens also wrote about ordinary people and so realistically, that it was as if one was actually there. I didn’t find

this with hardy.

When I need cheering up, I watch the Doctor. It works every time.

Missy

 

[TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros]

@ichabod

I can back you up on this one, River was depressing but very good in my opinion. Skargard was excellent.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@missy  @thedentistofdavros  Still watching, actually, 5th episode today, I think.  I’m not expecting any singing and dancing, but the story is, as Dentist says, very good and very well done.

Then, as recommended, I’ll watch some DW, and start smiling again.

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod @missy  I certainly studied Hardy at school  – this was in Adelaide in the 70s & 80s during the early Don Dunstan era where the English curriculum was a hallowed thing.

Whilst I have always loved Dickens, there’s a special place in my heart for Thomas H.

@pedant Spawn & I have watched the first three episodes of something utterly sublime – even a phenomenon! This is The Leftovers. You recommended it to me last year?

You urged me to scrap Fringe in favour of continuing with House. We did, right thru to the end and then finished a David E. Kelleys production so we could begin either Rectify or Leftovers – a toin coss and we found the latter. Spawn’s in charge of the gambling here so it was rigged for sure.

an absolute wonder of a story -so poised, delicate, poly saturated with layers of rumbling echoes lampooning life, the ‘rapture’, military mini -oligarchies..Och watch it if u can. The Puricle extends his thanks @pedant to your outstanding recommendations.

I don’t deny the U K has some terrific long form television but I’m not finding it at the moment.

this is typed by me – the Puricle for mum. Our 7 year old laptop which mum named Stellar died last week. The wires to the battery had worn thru. There were some interesting fireworks -I mean that literally. Also I should be in the pub for wot mum ses type next

loved The a Leftovers -that’s me 🙂 *big fucking grin*

thanku puroandson

[ichabod @ichabod]

@puroandson  — YES!  The Leftovers was also a recce from me, though maybe at a different time.  I love that show inordinately, can’t wait for the new season.  At last, something so barefacedly itself that it’s not predictable, but as wildly erratic as life itself, full of gob-smacking surprises that just have to be met and coped with by characters and viewers alike.  Brilliant writing, acting, music, the works — damn, I miss it!

The creators of the show insist that there is an ending they’re proceeding toward.  I hope, hope, hope it’s not a) something that doesn’t work for me, and b) soon.

 

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod we saw the stoning scene which we had to fast forward it was SO awful.  Puricle understands  that women in the Old Test. were punished in this manner. Still, the filth of it.

As for the score it is utterly brilliant. A colleague of mine is attempting to nab it for me so that should be fun to check over.

[Anonymous @]

I shud say that stoning goes on still. I wouldn’t want anyone to assume Puricle wouldn’t know it or that I was presuming that it was either ‘new’ or somehow forgotten?

kindest. The Hybrid

[ichabod @ichabod]

@puroandson   Gods yes, that scene is frightful — what it called up for me is the stabbing scene at the end of an Italian film about the Fascist period in Italy — years ago, and I can’t remember the title now, but it was bloody awful, the brute-physicality of it, unstoppable til it’s over and the awful deed is done.  I love the title sequence, too.  It’s changed for the second season, but the first one is wonderful — that strange, suggestive, mock-renaissance frescoed ceiling!

I think they creators of the show have said the third season will be it, which is good news.  I find that the limited series are much better than the open-ended ones that just keep wambling along (“Lost” is the great example, to my mind, staggering onward with a kind of suppressed franticness to a — to me — oddly flat and abrupt ending at least two seasons past its prime).  This one is a real beauty.

 

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod

Still watching, actually, 5th episode today, I think.  I’m not expecting any singing and dancing, but the story is, as Dentist says, very good and very well done.

Then, as recommended, I’ll watch some DW, and start smiling again.

I can understand that.  Although it was brutal, we couldn’t stop watching FARGO (Martin Freeman.) Whether it was a good series or not, we found it compelling. Before I went to bed, I watched DW, that sent me to sleep with a smile on my face.

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy

that sounds like an intellectual choice? Fargo, I mean? A uni student of mum’s who is a percussionist (therefore he plays just about everything that bangs and whistles) has recced Fargo for her.

Apparently she loved the film from years ago by the Cohen bros? Mosh anything by them she loves including the ‘musical’ Oh Brother Where Art Thou.

so maybe she will now go ahead and take a look at this series.

If you can get The Leftovers then it would be worth it. It has loads of language and some drug scenes initially – what doesn’t these days? But once you pass that, it’s really very good as the entire   Show is unpredictable, clever, understated acting by Amy brenneman who is one of those almost lost talents. Also it’s just so diverse. Neither of us knew what it was about – so every thing was totally new.

 

thankyou, puros son

PS @ichabod thanks for the comments you wrote about it we agree with all that. I’m still at home with bronchial pneumonia – like 9 days now, so is it bad that we’re watching Leftovers? 🙂

we’re watching the bi t where the chief’s dad is talking about how the world doesn’t owe you anything or has no obligation to us, the person? Is that existentialism ichi?. Maybe @pedant is able to assist in that answer.

[Anonymous @]

It seems our internet is playing up, ! Eek

[Author]

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