S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

[Whisht @whisht]

yeah, but @Shazzbot, I’m tallish too!

You can see fer miles up ‘ere!

😉

[Anonymous @]

@juniperfish – You are in your red/blue element, aren’t you?!  Bow ties, background colours, costuming, it’s all coming together for you.  I feel guilty with my blue fez now, may have to change to another.

“Does anyone remember that Prisoner Zero taunted Eleven by singing “the Doctor in the TARDIS doesn’t know”…   is he [Hurt] “the Doctor without the TARDIS!?”

Oooh, you are good!  This is one of those instances I spoke of earlier, where every single line appears to be so very craftily written for two completely different audiences – the casual viewer thinks ‘yeah, the Doctor has a Tardis’ whereas you think ‘hmmm, Doctor in the Tardis?  Must mean there is a Doctor without a Tardis somewhere!’

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@juniperfish

Does anyone remember that Prisoner Zero taunted Eleven then by singing “the Doctor in the TARDIS doesn’t know”. Does the Hurt Doctor have a “dark TARDIS” (visually, I’d love to see that!). Or is he “the Doctor without the TARDIS”?

Brilliant. Might have to rewatch everything now. Is it possible they meant River though? River always knows and was a Doctor if I remember. Not as good, that, and I’m clueless on academic titles. How could a Doctor end up without a TARDIS? Explosion? Hmm.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@Shazzbot “I’m very good” – I loved that line of Ten’s, so endearingly and arrogantly him (he said it when he saved River to the sonic) but, it’s not all me 🙂

Back on the G-blog that line was pondered over quite a bit in seasons past, when we were wondering whether one version of the Doctor ended up taking the “slow path”. Remember when he was waving to Amy and Rory out of history books and Laurel and Hardy movies? We were thinking ganger Doctor from The Almost People in those days.

This could still end up working, if Hurt Doc is a version of Eleven – who knows!

So yes, I’m reviving an iteration of an old theory now we have an explicit “other” Doctor to play with!

I now desperately want to see “dark TARDIS” 🙂

[Tournikate @tournikate]

Agh! I love it all.

First off @phileasf I got a really good chuckle from this

‘River seemed a little harsh when she warned Clara that her splinters would only be copies. Pot. Kettle.’

And I am assuming some one can clear this up for me….

Having never watched the original Doctor Who (yet) I am wondering if we have ever heard of Trinsalor before this? Is it only known (now) for being the grave site of the Doctor or did it have a place or roll that was previously revealed??

[Anonymous @]

@juniperfish and others — Quite like the idea of Hurt as the Alt-Eleventh Doctor (apologies, can’t remember who originated the idea).

However, much as I like it, I’m afraid I’ll have to put it on the Rejected Theories Pile if only because we saw that complete regeneration happen. I’d still like to know why that regeneration caused so much chaos in the TARDIS.

I’m still going for Hurt being Doc Nine. For those, as well as reasons that can’t really be discussed outside the Spoilers thread.

@juniperfish — yeah, I’ve been pondering the ‘paintings’ thing too. That’s clearly going to be a big thing but I’ve yet to formulate any cogent theory on it.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@tournikate A warm welcome to you, the only Who fan in the village! 🙂

No, Trenzalore is a Moffat invention, there is no continuity with Old Who.

Our resident Old Who lore expert @htpbdet is not with us at the moment, but as soon as he’s back (we miss him) he can verify I’m sure!

[Anonymous @]

@tournikate — in lieu of the walking Who encyclopedia that is @htpbdet, I’m pretty certain that Trenzalor was never mentioned before AGMGTW….

[Whisht @whisht]

Hi @tournikate -glad you’re around (just in case they;re any injuries and suchlike; I mean, its a dangerous wifi-world innit?)

;¬)

@jimthefish – there’s a Rejected Theories Pile???!!??!

Is that that mountain I see towering above me??
It needs shoring up!

Quick – more theories we can reject!! put them over on the left, near that over-hang!

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

<waves at comrade @jimthefish > I think we should have a Clan Fish moot at some point and make offerings to @holymackerel the God-Fish-Complex 🙂

Vincent’s painting of three exploding TARDISes – hmmn – we’ve seen the TARDIS explode / near explode three times now.

The Eleventh Hour, The Big Bang and Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS.

Some unknown force was controlling the TARDIS in The Big Bang – the one with the hissing voice. I think some very clever person either here or on the G-blog reckoned that hissing voice sounded like John Hurt’s!

In some massive time-loop they will all be connected 🙂

On a more “shippy” note (waves at @pedant mischeviously) I want to know whether River met Hurt Doctor.

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

I’d still like to know why that regeneration caused so much chaos in the TARDIS.

@jimthefish – all may become apparent at the 50th, but my current guess is that – since the John Hurt Doctor – the Doctors have been considerably more scared of regeneration than they used to be. They now know, deep in their bones, that what comes out of a regeneration might not be ‘The Doctor’.

 

[Anonymous @]

@whisht — yes that Rejected Theories Pile is definitely going to become a health and safety issue at some point.

@juniperfish — good call on the exploding TARDISes. Yep, I think that’s going to be pivotal to the anniversary episode. As well as Vincent’s painting.

@bluesqueakpip — good point RE. regeneration. (Just as an aside, I’ve often wondered if Time Lords gave each cards and presents and the like after a new regeneration. ‘You know it’s time to regenerate when you feel like a new man’ and all that. Also if Time Lords get married, I wonder if marrying someone who looks like Johnny Depp and then waking up one morning to find out that they now look like Chuck Connors is sufficient grounds for a Gallifreyan divorce.)

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@bluesqueakpip I think there was a line in NiS along the lines of “I could regenerate now, but God knows what I’d become (or you’d get)”. I thought that as well.

@juniperfish Just to go back to red and blue. I know you must be really bored of it by now but I just need to revisit 😀

When the GI jumped in to The Doctor’s time stream, it seemed that the room was then bathed in red (by the time stream) and it was only when Clara jumped in that it reverted back to a more white/blue. So maybe red isn’t the uncorrupted? Or was it just red is death. Just a thought?

[Tournikate @tournikate]

Thanks for clairifying that for me! And for the very nice welcome @whisht @juniperfish @jimthefish and @Shazzbot

:))

 

[Anonymous @]

@tournikate – thank you for reminding me that I wanted to comment to @phileasf about this:

“‘River seemed a little harsh when she warned Clara that her splinters would only be copies. Pot. Kettle.’”

Hey, it’s all about interpretation, isn’t it?  Because I didn’t think River was being harsh at all.  I found that to be an extremely poignant moment – considering the ‘person’ saying it was in effect a copy of a real person – and I thought Alex Kingston delivered that line with self-aware pathos and gentle warning (if anyone knows how awfully lonely it is to live as a ‘copy’, it’s our River Song).

But not harshness.  No, I don’t think so.

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip and @craig –

“since the John Hurt Doctor – the Doctors have been considerably more scared of regeneration than they used to be. They now know, deep in their bones, that what comes out of a regeneration might not be ‘The Doctor’.”

“I think there was a line in NiS along the lines of ‘I could regenerate now, but God knows what I’d become (or you’d get)’.”

My admiration for what Steven* Moffat has done with TNotD grows daily, not least thanks to comments like this.  We really do have to re-think several years’ worth of episodes, don’t we?!

But you both are, by those observations, firmly in the non-future Doctor camp, and non-11’s-alter-ego camp.  If 10 was scared of regeneration because he didn’t know what he’d regenerate into, and ditto for 11, then the Hurt Doctor must precede 10.

* see!   I did it !  No more annoying ‘S Moffat’ tics because I now confidently can spell his name.  🙂

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@Shazzbot Cheers. Just checked and the lines were:

I could regenerate now. Big blast of regeneration energy… burn out any little cyber widgets in my brain, along with everything you’re connected to. Don’t want to. Use this me up, who knows what we’ll get next? But I can!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@craig You’re right – the timestream goes red when the GI jumps in, Dr starts to look v unwell (maybe more green than blue tho!); he revovers as it turns back to white when Clara goes in. Incidentally – What’s the theories re the little white flash about 42.04, when the Dr is trying to coax Clara toward him. It looks like it could be a bit of the timestream, but the Dr has been there for a little while by that time.

@jimthefish LMAO @ Gallifreyan divorce grounds!

@juniperfish Good call – I hadn’t thought about HurtDr being Tardis-less. If he’s alt11 (that little 1 sec gap between 10 and 11 when we were in the Dr’s mind in Nis anyone?) then he will be, but presumably not if he’s between 8/9.  Dark Tardis would be cool – unless he has no style and it’s all beige formica tops 😉

@Shazzbot Agree with your interpretation of River’s comment to clara re being a splinter – she was speaking as someone who knew about it only too well.

Oh, and –

I feel guilty with my blue fez now…

Ha! that’s cos you stole it!!

welcome. The main thing you have to remember is that you can get pretty much all you need from Nu (or AfterGap (unless the terminology’s changed again – I get very behind sometimes!)) Who. Other bits, like the GI origin stories don’t really add substance so much as seasoning and you can pick that up in here or other blogs. (Not saying you shouldn’t go invstigating the earlier stuff, just that you don’t need to)

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@craig

Just to go back to red and blue. I know you must be really bored of it by now but I just need to revisit

Ha ha – cheeky!

When the GI jumped in to The Doctor’s time stream, it seemed that the room was then bathed in red (by the time stream) and it was only when Clara jumped in that it reverted back to a more white/blue. So maybe red isn’t the uncorrupted? Or was it just red is death. Just a thought?

Yes, that messed with my symmetry!

I can only conclude that Moff has been reading our comments all along (well let’s face it he’s obviously a Guardian reader) and has been personally playing a red/ blue game of messing-sh*t-up with my double-fishy heads 🙂 <Errrm… grandiosity? What grandiosity?>

You’re right that the Doctor’s original (as far as we know) “scar-tissue” was blue and the GI made it flare red.  This doesn’t “map” to Mr. Clever  as a direct colour mirroring of GI infected “dark Doctor”, as Mr. Clever took the blue side of the Doctor’s brain/ chess-board.

However, there are two “dark influences” in the Doctor’s time-line – the GI (neutralised by Clara) and Hurt Doctor (split off in a “bubble universe”). So there is no “uncorrupted” time-line as such, because there is no timeline in which Hurt Doctor did not happen. The Doctor has split Hurt Doctor off which means he cannot erase him.

The solution is the Jungian one of facing and integrating one’s shadow, not eliminating it, I think!

In Amy’s Choice, the Dreamlord was still “with” our Eleven at the end (red bow-tie) because we saw his reflection in the TARDIS console, but he was submerged again and the Doctor was with loved companions. Companions, as we know in Nu Who, are what stop the Doctor from geting too dark. So Hurt Doctor was/ is companionless, no doubt.

The general red/ blue time theme stands as metaphor for Doctor and dark doppleganger even if it doesn’t literatlly map.

I have thought before about whether red bow-tie and blue bow-tie Doctors behaviours were subtley different, as in decisions made, mood-swings etc. But that way madness lies and right now I have to get back to work, you enabler you 🙂

 

[Craig @craig Emperor]

If he doesn’t want to regenerate it may because he knows one day he turns into the Hurt Doctor. And considering the Valeyard is another option, he’s got two reasons to hang onto this body (unless Hurt is the Valeyard of course – The Doctor, but not called The Doctor).

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@scaryb Lol at beige formica tops ! That really would be evil 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@juniperfish Well @danmartinuk said that Moff told him that he and Matt read all the comments (they must be mad, masochistic or incredibly thick skinned).  I’m sure that’s why it all suddenly seems to be panning out in the direction of our theories, LOL. (Then they’ll twist it round like your blue/red, just when we’re feeling complacent, haha). And I did send Mr M a direct invite to come in here, so he’s bound to!! 🙂

So the headings for the production notes for the programme will go along the lines of – Dr & castquirks, Dates and numbers, Genuine Clues, Arc Refs, Random Things for Fandom Head-messing (inc blue/red, numbers, flashing lights, funny little pauses, switch the bow ties every now and then etc etc

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@craig that’s good re 10 not wanting to regenerate cos he knew what/who was coming

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

So, assuming both 10 and 11 seemed wary of what may turn up next and the ending of TNotD might it have been due to Nine absorbing the time vortex and somehow being able to control it? To attempt prevention of the Time War? Drastic by the sound of it but done in the name of peace and sanity.

I know there’s the argument of what has happened must always happen, meaning Nine always died from vortex energy, but can that really be the case with the events of JttCotT?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@satsumajoe – Waaaay to go with the avatar 😎

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@jimthefish

I’m still going for Hurt being Doc Nine.

I’ve not visited the spoiler thread – I’ve kept well clear of spoilers since I read the novelisation of Return of the Jedi in 1983, which kind of ruined the movie for me!

Anyway, the way that I see it is that there is room in the Doctor’s timeline in four places for the Hurt Doctor:

1) Before Hartnell

2) Between Troughton and Pertwee

3) Between McGann and Ecclestone

4) After Smith

Additionally, some people have speculated that the Hurt Doctor might be:

5) Parallel to Smith

I am tending towards (3), as are most people on the interwebs, but my reasons for discounting  (1), (4) and (5) are as follows:

• A promise can’t be broken before it’s made (despite this being a time travel story), so the Hurt Doctor cannot be before Hartnell;
• Smith seems to know about the Hurt Doctor’s actions, and refers to them in the past tense, therefore it must be an incarnation prior to Smith’s;
• We saw the full regeneration from Tennant to Smith – there is no time for the Hurt Doctor to exist and commit his crimes (unless he pulled a Face of Evil stunt).

That leaves (2) and (3). We’ve discussed (3) a lot, but not (2). I’ve not heard anyone suggest it before but, could the Hurt Doctor be the equivalent to series 6C?

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

@badwulf

Anyway, the way that I see it is that there is room in the Doctor’s timeline in four places for the Hurt Doctor:
1) Before Hartnell

2) Between Troughton and Pertwee

3) Between McGann and Ecclestone

4) After Smith
Additionally, some people have speculated that the Hurt Doctor might be:

5) Parallel to Smith

I think there is another one you could add in there. Didn’t Ten semi-regenerate in one of the last episodes? Can’t remember which one it was, but didn’t he get shot or something *looks a bit guilty for forgetting Ten so quickly.*

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@craig @Shazzbot

Yup, it’s interesting that line about voluntarily regenerating; I assumed it may have been a bluff as in JttCotT when he threatened the self destruct. So are we back to HurtDr being possibly preHartnell (has that one still got legs?), between 8/9, or between 10/11 or he’s after 11?

Haha – everyone was so sure he was between 8/9 now it’s all moving round again.

[Anonymous @]

@juniperfish – “Companions, as we know in Nu Who, are what stop the Doctor from geting too dark.  So Hurt Doctor was/ is companionless, no doubt.”

Good point about post-2005 Who.   All of the loneliness tropes this series are about people who don’t have friends.  The Doctor (as we now know him*) needs friends, as do we all to stop sliding into dark places.  And you made a marvellous assumption about Hurt Doctor being companionless – I really hope that’s something we see in the 50th!

* I do believe our @htpbdet had an excellent comment about pre-2005 Who companions; specifically I remember him saying Sarah Jane egged on her Doctor to commit genocide, and the Doctor withheld fire.  Pre-2005 Who companions were different from the RTD/SM reign so far, which is a comment not just on changing social mores, but also the ongoing change in who/what the Doctor is.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@jimthefish @whisht

Yes I remember noticing the rejected theories pile around the time of Impossible People. It whimpers a bit occasionally, but you’re right it’s getting a bit big and unstable (much like a dying Tardis). Now and again 1 crawls out to be reconsidered.

More theories!!

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb 😀 Courtesy of @whisht.

@badwulf Sorry, what’s series 6C about? I’m still going for the first theory but open to other past tense ones!

@chickenelly Yes, Ten got shot by a Dalek in Journey’s End and used his spare hand (lopped off by a citrus hater, which is just wrong) to absorb regeneration energy and stop himself snuffing it.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

And finally (possibly!)

@juniperfish

Some unknown force was controlling the TARDIS in The Big Bang – the one with the hissing voice. I think some very clever person either here or on the G-blog reckoned that hissing voice sounded like John Hurt’s!

Could be, as HDr tussles for control of the Tardis (pissed off that he is a Tardis-less Dr. Sheesh, no wonder he goes dark).  Though I’m also quite happy with it being the GI. (I doubt if it was either Grant or Hurt, but it could be either character)

[Whisht @whisht]

@scaryb – I’m sure we’re all a bit guardian-tree-huggy to some extent, so shouldn’t we maybe recycle our theories first..?

I mean, I had the Silence guarding the Doctor’s secret…. rather than the Whispermen crashing it.
Ok, I woz wrong, but perhaps the Silence were guarding The Hurt Doctor’s secret and therefore didn’t want it revealed (by 11 getting access to his corpsestream)?

(best I can do with the recycling at this time of night after far too much red….)

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@scaryb ” @juniperfish Well @danmartinuk said that Moff told him that he and Matt read all the comments (they must be mad, masochistic or incredibly thick skinned).  I’m sure that’s why it all suddenly seems to be panning out in the direction of our theories, LOL. (Then they’ll twist it round like your blue/red, just when we’re feeling complacent, haha). And I did send Mr M a direct invite to come in here, so he’s bound to!!

So the headings for the production notes for the programme will go along the lines of – Dr & castquirks, Dates and numbers, Genuine Clues, Arc Refs, Random Things for Fandom Head-messing (inc blue/red, numbers, flashing lights, funny little pauses, switch the bow ties every now and then etc etc”

Ahahahaha! Imagine he really has such a list which keeps him up to date with the most recent theories! That would be absolutely hilarious! “What am I doing today…” XD

@Shazzbot ” @@juniperfish – “Companions, as we know in Nu Who, are what stop the Doctor from geting too dark.  So Hurt Doctor was/ is companionless, no doubt.” ”

Sounds absolutely right for me as well =)

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@scaryb “And finally (possibly!)

@juniperfish

Some unknown force was controlling the TARDIS in The Big Bang – the one with the hissing voice. I think some very clever person either here or on the G-blog reckoned that hissing voice sounded like John Hurt’s!

Could be, as HDr tussles for control of the Tardis (pissed off that he is a Tardis-less Dr. Sheesh, no wonder he goes dark).  Though I’m also quite happy with it being the GI. (I doubt if it was either Grant or Hurt, but it could be either character)”

Is that not still in the timeline of the Silence? I assumed River forgot over and over what she was told to do…. Well thats a new way to see it ^^

[ScaryB @scaryb]

<waves @tournikate> – Sorry this bit below was in one of my posts above, and meant for you, but the greeting disappeared in the edit 🙁 ( < > sometimes does)

welcome. The main thing you have to remember is that you can get pretty much all you need from Nu (or AfterGap (unless the terminology’s changed again – I get very behind sometimes!)) Who. Other bits, like the GI origin stories don’t really add substance so much as seasoning and you can pick that up in here or other blogs. (Not saying you shouldn’t go invstigating the earlier stuff, just that you don’t need to)

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@scaryb

So are we back to HurtDr being possibly preHartnell (has that one still got legs?), between 8/9, or between 10/11 or he’s after 11?

You forgot between 2 and 3. I see that as the only other good possibility, because we don’t actually see the regeneration.

[Anonymous @]

@whisht – thanks for bringing back the Silence.  I’m still not clear on what that whole series was about, not least now that we have seen TNotD.  (sorry @satsumajoe!)

OK, so, the Silence were supposed to kill the Doctor so he could never get to Trenzalore … why? I like your theory that they were guarding the Hurt Doctor (/keeping him from getting ‘out’), but … why?

And seeing how Trenzalore is essentially the Doctor’s grave, he was  a) always going to end up there (albeit being dead, he probably couldn’t do much),  and b)  the Doctor couldn’t cross his own timeline without massive consquences (most of which couldn’t be foreseen by the Silence), so why would they think he would do it prior to his own death?

Someone earlier in this thread called the Silence a ‘race’.  As Tesselector Amy said, though, ‘they are a religious order’.  I’m wondering if the echoes of what we’re about to see go all the way back to 10’s ‘Satan Pit’ :  The monster that has to be chained up, whose energy simultaneously keeps him alive but also keeps him from being able to break free of his chains.

Is Hurt Doctor equivalent to the ‘beast’ in Satan Pit?

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@satsumajoe

At the end of The War Games (series 6), the Timelords exile the Doctor to Earth, wipe his companions’ memories of their travels with him, and force him to regenerate into Jon Pertwee for series 7.

 

However, there was a serial called the Two Doctors, where Doctor 2 meets Doctor 6, that includes one of the memory-wiped companions and the 2nd Doctor travelling together, working for the Timelords, and looking much older than at the end of The War Games. This has led fans to speculate that there was a period of stories that they refer to as series 6B between The War Games and the arrival of the 3rd Doctor, where the 2nd Doctor and Jamie worked as time agents for the Timelords. This is further corroborated by comments by the 2nd Doctor in The Five Doctors where his shows knowledge of the memory wipe of his companions, despite still looking like Troughton.

My suggestion of a series 6C takes this one step further – Series 7 opens with Pertwee falling out of the TARDIS  (in colour for the first time!) – But, we never actually saw his face change from Troughton to Pertwee, therefore there is space in the Doctor’s timeline between 2 and 3 for the Hurt Doctor to exist.

[janisthorns @janisthorns]

hi– I am new to on-line chatting–I have been with Who since I was 12 years old (Yes, I am 50 (too) )-

Do we have the Valeyard?  Has to be between 12-13.  11 said he “broke the promise”,  they are calling him the Doctor but he is the Valeyard.

 

Also–anyone going to London In November??–I am–would like company (nobody I can find local(Oregon)).

 

 

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@Shazzbot? What are you sorry for? I don’t have a real clue about the series either, that’s the appeal! 😀

But yes, the Silence. They are/were both religious order (seemingly as an alliance of several races) and species, the latter being those freaky electricity flinging bulbous headed… amnesia blokes?

If you look at Clara being the focus (yes I know, companion’s journey etc), suppose the series has been about getting her to the point of becoming the Impossible Girl and saving the Doctor/undoing GI damage. After all, he only became curious about the puzzle of her after AotD and The Snowmen – that’s a loop which had to happen. He had to go to Trenzalore and live on (I think) by her actions. Another loop?

Had he not, silence would have fallen in many places. Stars do make noise after a fashion.

[Anonymous @]

Hello @janisthorns – welcome to our humble abode!  We are very international now, and glad to have an Oregonian in our midst.  And an historic Who fan too!  Sublime.

Personally, I’m not going to London but that’s due to dog-minding issues.  But I’m sure that others here will be there.

So, … what are your theories after having watched The Name of the Doctor?  🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@badwulf Much as the gap between 2 and 3 offers a tempting space, I think Moffat is much more likely to draw it from the reboot – his characters, mythology and current audience.  Then again he’s been pulling a lot from late troughton/early Pertwee this season, so who knows!

For me between 8/9 sounds most dramatically satisfying.

Question tho – HurtDr is still in the Dr’s Timestream – ie he’s like an echo at the moment (the Dr says that earlier when he’s explaining where she is). So how does he get out and become corporeal…? (Not to mention start looking for his Tardis)

<waves @janisthorns – great name 🙂 )

[Anonymous @]

Hi @satsumajoe you orangey thing you  😉

I’m still a bit confused about the whole series arc involving the Silence:  what did they want?  To kill the Doctor?  Why?   (it’s further complicated by the fact that the Silence series begat River Song as an adult, and I’m not entirely happy about that)

As I said in my previous comment, it makes no sense to me why killing the Doctor before Trenzalore was necessary.  Trenzalore is his burial ground, and he was always going to get there anyway as a dead man.  The Doctor has repeatedly said he can’t go into his own future / cross his own timeline, so why would the Silence apparently believe he would do just that?

The only bonkers theory I can come up with, is that the Silence wanted to kill the Doctor (i.e., 11) before the Hurt Doctor could be revealed.  The assumption being that if 11 died ‘as he was supposed to’ then Hurt Doctor would die too.  Which, I think, puts me in the ‘Hurt Doctor as post-11’ camp – because if Hurt came before 11, what was that whole begumptious Silence thing all about anyhoo?!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Hmmm… well, if Uncle Tom Cobbley and all can get inside the Doctor’s timestream if they visit his tomb…

At the moment, if the Doctor had died before Trenzalore, that would’ve meant no one was able to get inside his timestream. He got cremated at Lake Silencio. No tomb.

So either the Silence are a mirror to the Hurt Doctor – doing terrible things for what they believe is a good reason – or they know that, in going into his own time-stream, the Doctor is about to pull some kind of rabbit out of the hat which means that Silence will Fall.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip

I think the Silence are going to be very confused…!

[janisthorns @janisthorns]

I think Hurt is the last incarnation–the Doctor Shadow self–the Valeyard–Clara just allowed him to meet him–he (11) knew he (13) was there (they are all him, all there)–13 influenced all those bad Doctor decisions throughout time.   And 13 broke the promise of the name he chose “The Doctor”–I think Moffett is beginning a new thread (well, old thread picked up).  And Hurt will be in the 50th as 13–and we still have the pleasure of not knowing 12.  As the last incarnation he gets over shadowed by doubt–indecision–all the bad creeps up.

The Silence want him dead–because of the belief they “will fall” if he answers the question–he didn’t–but did River?  He already wiped them (The Silence) out (more or less) so nothing much we know of happened when he did go to Trenzalore–thus the Silence thread (for now) is finished–to start the new one.

???

 

 

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@jimthefish– re: Johnny Depp reincarnations- yes. I mentioned this to my boyfriend, and he informed me that if I reincarnated as Johnny Depp, he would learn to live with the change. I don’t know if Depp is a fair measure…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

I think the Silence are going to be very confused…!

@scaryb – not half as confused as I was after writing that post! 😀

[WhoHar @whohar]

@shazzbot (I think)

Re: Jenny’s desktop comment. I just took that as being a joke – they were seated around a giant desk.

Oh and hello to the new arrivals. It’s very friendly here so don’t be shy.

[Author]

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