The Fox Inn

[Missy @missy]

@mudlark

I’ve missed something here. An Operation? How goes it?

I trust that you are on the mend and I echo @pruosolo.

Cheers,

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus “I do love watching things grow (when they do). ” Exactly, me too!

@missy I think @pharellman was having a joke with us, mate! Although to be honest with you, I don’t mind cleaning. I don’t think it’s boring. I dust the CDs (well, I use  a bucket and a sponge on everything -even the mahogany which loves it. Most of the shelves are from a hard wood of some kind) and find one I haven’t played in an age. Clean the DVDs and go “that’s where it is!”. Clean the pantry and find the porcini mushroom stash (erm, porcini are for cooking not snorting in case Mr Pharell thinks indigence is the result of cleaning and paired best with stoner-ing). Generally when I clean I talk aloud or if instructing the cleaner I also talk! I can instruct from my sofa-bed all day long! When I do it myself Big Ideas spring to mind. It’s good -there are worse things. Not having a domicile to clean or just not being able to, I guess.

@arbutus -yes thank you for your kind question. He is feeling better. Today is the ‘hump’ day. He believes he’ll be well enough for school on Monday which also means he as an annoying ‘music’ assignment to do. I place it in qu marks because his is a ‘project’ on a popular rock song. He has chosen one of his favourites which is Bon Jovi’s ‘You Give Love a bad Name’ which has no MTV video recording and therefore not enough to analyse in my opinion. Really, what a hopeless assignment. In my day it would have been ‘write a small sonata in C’ or a minimalist piece for 4 instruments including keyboard. And then analyse the minimalist style.

Honestly, school these days 🙂

@winston that sounds glorious. Shame we cannot see one tiny photo of a perennial or an annual? Your greenhouse sounds absolutely marvellous. You would have shelves on which to do potting (?) as opposed to what I do which is bend over and pot things resulting in an achy back or falling right over!

Kindest, PuroSolo

[Pharell, Man! @pharellman]

@missy

Take cooking for instance. One takes the time to cook a tasty meal and it’s gone in about ten minutes? so much for creativity.

As for rest, it’s boooring! Definitely NOt relaxing or mentally stimulating.
If I can listen to a talking book (which I do a lot) whilst slaving away with the duster, broom, and cleaning liquid, I can bear it.

Yes, OK, maybe cooking is for you not fine, but sometimes when I cook I feel good, because of this heat that comes off from the pot, and smell. Yes, maybe at this time in year it’s not so joyful, but in winter, or any other cold times is quite nice. 🙂

Or let’s take a vacuuming of room. This noise of vacuumer after whole tired day is sometimes “that nostalgic sound, that makes you think about nice moments back in time”.

Maybe it’s not the best way of spending a time, but sometimes it just quite fun, like @Puroandson said, sometimes good ideas come up to the head while you do that.

I definitley HATE working, esspecially on farm or something simillar, but home exercises are necessary, and sometimes quite fun (not all of them, but well, those easiest 😛 ). That’s my opinion. 🙂

[lisa @lisa]

Good morning all you beautiful Whovians !

I ‘ve been catching up somewhat on all your comments.   I disagree with those that don’t

appreciate gardening.  IMHO anyone that has time to do anything else isn’t gardening

enough.   Btw   a favorite FB page is  “the Empress of Dirt” for great gardening ideas.

However I actually haven’t been able to spend as much time as I would like in my own garden

recently.   🙁      Too busy with teaching and volunteering for Democratic party with the

California primary coming up on June 7th.  June is a big month for UK with the Brexit vote

too and I’m following that closely.   I really hope the GOP gets destroyed this November!

There I’ve said it.  I want to clean the toilet out.   They have been crumbling for years now

and that is why they now have a lunatic as the candidate.  I’m leaning as a Hillary supporter.

but I could vote for Sanders.  They both have some issues for me.  My only problem with Sanders

is all the ‘free’ stuff he wants to get passed thru.  TBH I don’t believe he will be able to overcome the

design of our government to do that.  I cant see him being able to build the coalitions he needs.

This isn’t a parliamentary system here.   Just not confident that he can do that.  Hillary has been better

to me at making her points.

@puroandson     I really happy to hear you have been feeling stronger!!  I will help you with your gardening.

Will drop by as soon as I can and we can play in the dirt together !   🙂

 

Anyone following Game of Thrones here?   The first 2 episodes of the new season were killer!  Its

the first TV  show I’ve watched since Who except for ‘Happy Valley’  on Daily motion and I

never miss ‘Gardeners World’ on YT.   Highly recommend both!

 

Well, will check back soon but for now its laters       🙂

 

 

[winston @winston]

@lisa    I agree with you about gardening! There can never be too much.

@puroandson Yes I love my greenhouse because it does have shelves to save my back a bit.Mind you they do go in the ground and there is the bending that hurts my back. My hubby has been turning my beds into raised boxes so I can sit and weed but there are still regular beds so there is still that back-breaking bending. Mind you today I put my grandaughter to work planting runner beans and she loved it.She said to me “I am all about plants ,just like you Grandma.”  I have many pics but no idea how to put them on this site or any other for that matter, I need the older grandkid here to teach me.

@arbutus   Gardening with children can be fun for both and it is important for them to learn where food comes from and how tasty it is picked fresh out of the garden. My kids and grandkids love to pick beans and peas etc. and eat them raw even when they hate them cooked.

I dislike housework a lot,  but love a clean and tidy house so whats a person to do?  Grin and bear it I guess.

[Anonymous @]

@winston

Gardening with children can be fun for both and it is important for them to learn where food comes from and how tasty it is picked fresh

totally agree with that -butting in there with @arbutus but I found that once Son saw the lettuces, kale, rocket and other green things which are so easy to maintain including herbs and tomatoes (and the chillies!) I found he was so happy to eat them. Not that Son is fussy. I’ve seen horrendous children in this First World of ours who complain about all food and besides sausages won’t eat a thing.

Fortunately I took my mum’s route, eat this or get nothing. He ate it. And now there’s very little he won’t try. I’m going through a cooking with new ideas phase…which means me with expletives creating real fires in the kitchen when, for example,  the wine hit the gas flame and climbed 5 feet in one second. Unbelievable that was! Though the subsequent taste of the wine ‘jus’ was wonderful. Best filet mignon I’d made, ever.

Tonight I’m doing a porterhouse steak (great because it holds the mignon and the NY strip all in one. Being on the bone means extra flavour). Now I know @mudlark is an awesome cook but is laid up for the time being. Anyone else know good ideas for porterhouse steak? Other than drenching it in a NSW rosy red wine?

PuroS

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@puroandson      What is it about creating large flames that is so satisfying? Now that we are into bbq season here, I love marinating things in olive oil and then dumping them in the grill basket. Every time I give them a stir, the resulting flame up just warms my heart (not to mention giving everything a pleasantly charred flavour). A five-foot flame in the kitchen, might make me a wee bit nervous, however!  🙂

@lisa     Kudos to you for volunteering for your party of choice. Far too many people complain about the state of things, and can’t even be bothered to write a letter to their representative, never mind volunteer or show up at a rally. Not mention the boneheads who won’t vote. This drives me mad. You will always be able to take comfort in the effort you made, even if you don’t get the result you want (although I am still refusing to believe that America will actually elect Trump!).

[Anonymous @]

@lisa well done on the political work

In Aus, today, we have the first Double Dissolution since 1987 with both halves of the Senate up for election. Currently the Liberals (the conservatives) have about 90 seats whilst Labour has about 50.

It’s one of the longest campaigns in many years, as well, with the election scheduled for July 2.

As of Monday, our 44th Parliament will be dissolved.

From now on, my head will be in the political arena. Unfortunately I fear the election will be won and lost in the outskirts of both QLD and NSW. Negative Gearing and poor housing for the ‘average’ aussie will be up for discussion as will Climate Change and the Gonski Education Plan.

It may well be a reshuffle of the cross benches if the Conservatives ‘win’ but both heads of party are rookies. So, we’ll see.

I always love watching the Eden Monaro seat -the bellwether of govt since 1972!

Kindest,

grumbling Puro.

[Anonymous @]

oh and yay for Bill Shorten. You can do it!! I predicted this 15 years ago. 🙂

[janetteB @janetteb]

@lisa keep up the good work. Looks like I will be on the phone to the local MP on Monday to offer my help and to report some election material that went up a day early. So the election was only called today but the “playing dirty” has already begun. (Our local Federal MP distinguished himself during the Abbott tenure by being repeatedly ordered out of Parliament. We are proud of him.)

@puroandson I am not really a fan of Shorten but I certainly hope your prediction proves true.

I am still waiting on rain, real, decent, soaking rain, before I start planting but I picked a rather stunted capsicum and some chilies yesterday and cropped the basil again today for pesto. It seems the only thing I can grow is parsley but I might attempt some veggies if we do get any rain this winter!!

Cheers

Janette

[Missy @missy]

@lisa

I disagree about gardening and the Game of Thrones. So many people I know have watched it saying how brutal and bloody it is, not to mention sex scenes. Not my cup of tea either.
However, each to their own I say. *big grin*

Ttfn

Missy

[Missy @missy]

@winston

I dislike housework a lot, but love a clean and tidy house so whats a person to do? Grin and bear it I guess.

Yes as do I, and must admiot to feeling rather virtuous aftwards.

Ttfn

Missy

[Missy @missy]

Oh well, it seems that I am the only one who doesn’t like back breaking, dirty work like gardening.
A tidy pretty garden is lovely – if someone else does it. *grins*
My OH and I do attemept some, I prune and he mows the grass.

Ttfn

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy @pedant @ichabod

Thought I’d move this conversation to the Pub for moderator reasons.

Yes, I admire Le Guin for standing up to that statement with such gusto.

As I said on The Sofa, Son’s teacher suffers no fools as well.

I recall many years ago that the anti-PC brigade was up in arms about how teachers needed to respect student’s personal lives, personality and indigenous and other preferences whilst developing their curriculum for personal use in that particular stream lined classroom. Now those teachers have retired to their caravans sitting by the fire at night and dismissively sneering at “that bureaucracy” which basically stopped their laziness and 20 years of sending out the same worn and tedious curriculum.

Newer and enthusiastic teachers have adopted those professional standards with ease, however, making the “PC crowd” look ridiculous and, to some extent, like dead wood.

Some things have needed to change @missy though I do understand that in some situations attitudes should be interpreted differently and as always, questioned, by each of us personally. That way, I suppose, we all stay happy, without fear about how one should act within each and every situation.

Kindest, Puro and Son.

[Missy @missy]

@puroandson
Some things have needed to change @missy though I do understand that in some situations attitudes should be interpreted differently and as always, questioned, by each of us personally. That way, I suppose, we all stay happy, without fear about how one should act within each and every situation.

And I agree with you up to a point. All I can see, is that young people (with exceptions) have no respect for the police, teachers or their parents, ever since caning was banned! Please don’t tell me that times have changed, and that won’t work anymore. Just tell me how one deals with children who tell their parents, police and any other grown up who crosses their path, to F*** off and in many cases use violence? By sitting them on the ‘naughty seat?”
This is what I mean by one type of political correctness. “One mustn’t slap one’s child.”

Ttfn

Missy

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@missy @puroandson

No country in Europe – and indeed anywhere else in the civilised world – permits the beating of children as discipline.

It is notable that the people of the UK – the last nation to give up this perversion – are the people with the worst (and fully justified) reputation for misbehaviour when traveling abroad.

It is almost as if other nations have found a better way to encourage respectful behaviour other than child abuse.

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod, I love your story about Ursula LeGuin. I wish I could have been there to see that one!

@ichabod
“I have heard of situations where people holding such ‘liberal’ values have gone to ridiculous extremes in their efforts to reverse generations of filthy and prejudiced behavior quickly, while the iron is hot; reform often involved over-reach. That doesn’t make efforts to reform outworn shibboleths worthless, absurd, or criminal, IMO, but mileage varies, of course. In my experience, when something is sneeringly dismissed as ‘political correctness’, that thing is *usually* well worth supporting.”

Well said.

@pedant
“It is almost as if other nations have found a better way to encourage respectful behaviour other than child abuse.”

There definitely are better ways that lead to better results, but like anything it takes time to learn how and plenty of practice and unfortunately, if things are as @missy says, then obviously parenting skills are not keeping up with the shift.

That being said, when I was younger, I heard the same complaints directed towards my generation about our unruly behviour. It does take quite some time for humans to learn how to behave properly it seems, and now with the Internet and cell phones and texting everything is played out in a far more public overt fashion than it used to be.

In my day, physical violence was a daily occurrence at school but generally ignored and you just had to fend for yourself. Nowadays I think this still happens but it’s more widely known about due to technological change; so, I’m skeptical towards statements that things have actually gotten worse since corporal punishment was abolished in schools and so on.

[Anonymous @]

@missy @pedant

Under no circumstances did I ever support caning as an option. Why? Because from a behavioural and curriculum perspective it never worked.

If there are behavioural problems it is ALWAYS  the curriculum that is the problem. If the curriculum is good, up to date and thoughtful there will be few behavioural issues. I’ve worked in some tough schools -I’ve had knives at my throat, a gun in a school bag and once I was locked in a cupboard. The cane would have done shit to stop that! In the end, mutual respect and understanding won these teens over.

As for slapping my Son -not once. And he’s the nicest person ever. If he goes over the line, it’s a firm word not a lazy slap. I was beaten by my parents and I basically hated them for it -still do, actually (never went to the father’s funeral).

[Anonymous @]

@missy one other thing -respect has to be earned. The police must earn it. Parents must earn it. And teachers as well. Authority is not in itself an excuse for itself. No one gets a free pass.

Kindest, Puro

Hi there Miss @missy. Son here. Interesting discussion.

I go to an average school but most kids don’t misbehave because they know they’ll get Friday afternoon and Saturday detentions and will be told they can’t go to sport which in turn upsets their coach who punishes them also. in the detentions mum used to hold, they went for 50 mins and the kids sat at desks and did nothing. They didn’t do work because mum didn’t think school work was a punishment and neither did they pick up litter- same reason.

They sat bored and did nothing. Almost none came back for a second top up because the first was SO awful. The cane was one thing which didn’t do anything. It scared the students. one of my heroes is a political guy called Kerry O’Brien -you may know him if you watch the news and current affairs programmes of good quality in Aus. He went to a school where kids got the cane and hated it. All that resulted was the teachers (and the brothers -it was Catholic) were hated and no-one wanted to learn anything. Kids were scarred mentally in the process.

From what dad says _and he’s a school principal, is that kids now are BETTER now than they were in the 80s. and Mum, on the front lines, agrees. No way are kids worse now than 20 years ago. Often, commercial stations like Current Affair on Channel 9 will have stories about how “kids today are terrible and swear at police officers.” Well, they’ve been doing that for centuries. My dad can vouch for that as before he was a principal he was in the London Met in the 60s and 70s and picking up the “scousers from their drum”. It was pretty bad then. His words: “its a doddle now”. 🙂

Love from Son. (puricle).

[Anonymous @]

@puroandson
“I was beaten by my parents and I basically hated them for it -still do, actually.”

I had the same experience, unfortunately, with similar results.

I am glad to hear that, at least in some quarters, things have improved, because you’d never guess that from some of the news reports.

[Missy @missy]

@pedant

I didn’t say ‘beat’ I said ‘slap’and if our three were still young, and I was told not to slap them if necessary, there would be trouble. I should be interexted to hear what you would do with a child who screamed and screamed in the supermarket because her mother wouldn’t buy her some sweets, and no amoont of patient humouring worked? In the end, the poor mother slapped the child on her legs – she shut up very quickly. I was there and saw and the little madam still didn’t get her sweets!

As for the UK being the last to stop ‘slapping’ more fool them! Still, at least they (we_) jump in like sheep like the rest of the English speaking world.

Funny how diffeent countries complain about other countries, but from what I’ve heard, Americans are the loudest closely followed by Australians – and rude to boot. This does not mean that the UK doesn’t have it’s share of loud mouths, but I’ve naver heard other nationalities mention it before – YET.

However, it’s obvious that some members feel very strongly about this topic, and so do I, so I think enough has been said – from me at least.

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy ?

Calm down. You witnessed one event. A wacking. And what would happen the next time, and the time after that? More wacking?

There are other, better, ways.

Puro

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@missy

I didn’t say ‘beat’ I said ‘slap’

A distinction without a difference.

. I should be interexted to hear what you would do with a child who screamed and screamed in the supermarket

Bringing up kids is hard. Who knew?

 diffeent countries complain

There are 17th Century Rotterdam harbourmaster logs bemoaning the imminent arrival of English ships and the certain trouble that will follow that night in town. Partly that is to do with our hugely unhealthy, deep-seated,  relationship with alcohol. But that we took so long to let go of child abuse as a default method of punishment has pretty much the same roots, suggesting a much more inherent issue for a nation built on warlordism.

It is about eduction and it is hard and takes years: within my lifetime it was socially acceptable for me to smoke at my desk, and to (though I never did) drink the night away and then drive home; to use all kinds of disgusting racial, sexual and discriminatory language (some of which I did, before I learned better).

Things change, and as the full extent of child abuse in churches and other respected institutions is slowly exposed, that ‘slap’ looks more like a short cut to a quiet life and a perpetuation of a cycle.

And, to a significant degree, we owe a lot of that change to Being Respectful (to uses its proper name, rather then the sneer invented by a conservative magazine).

[Anonymous @]

@pedant

I’d be interested to know where the term PC actually came from? A conservative magazine?

Ah huh!

Puro

[Missy @missy]

We are never goiong to agree, and even though times have changed, children should not be allowed to threaten their parents. My last word on that. However, I have got a funny story – although there are some who will purse their lips – to tell you and it is relevant.

We had a family meet on Mother’s Day and were reminiscing about their childhood. Number 2 son laughed and said:

“Do you remember……….?” I did.

Our twelve year old son did something which he knew annoyed me. I told him off. He did it again. I warned him that if he did whatever it was again I’d slap him – hard!

“That’s child abuse, and if you slap me I’ll take you to court!” He replied cockily.
“Really?” said I. “Well you do that, and when I’m standing in the dock, I’ll think of you in intensvie care.!”
He didn’t repeat the offence and shut up.

We all laughed uproariously, and I asked him if he actually believed me, to which he replied.

“I wasn’t sure, you had that look on your face, so I wasn’t game to try it.”

Naturally I was bluffing, and was very good at it nearly always worked. In spite of what you might think, going by my opinions, I did smack our children, but not often. Just the threat ended up being enough – accompanied, naturally – with the :look.” *grin*

That LOOK, has worked on many an occasion, simply because our kids knew that if I threatend them, I’d always follow through.

All from me,

Missy

[Anonymous @]

dear @missy

I’m home today and as my mother actually spends more time in intensive care than out -I didn’t find your story either funny or….actually…it IS relevant.  If my parents beat me like that or even threatened to do that, you know what I would think?

That they were perhaps ‘off’ parents.  My apologies, but I’m keeping this laptop and logging off (again) so Mum doesn’t see your message. I don’t much like the story and I don’t really think she would either. I’m sorry about that. Honestly.

Still, your generation would say “different strokes” so I will say “let’s talk Who because we agree on that at least”.

Yeah? Truce?

I hope so. I think at 14, I know when someone is being a peevish? 🙂 because it’s OK to disagree -but a story like that just don’t gel.

Music thread!!

Thank you all Son (doing exam revision -blergh)

[Missy @missy]

@puroandson

I had no idea about you Mother, and I am so sorry if I caused you pain.

However the story is true, and in the past (I haven’t told this for years, as this topic rarely comes up) all

who did hear it, laughed.

Yes, our generation was far different to yours, and kids did respect the police and other grown-

ups, except for the toerags of course. It’s possibly their children who are on drugs now – who knows?

From me there will be no more of the above, I only replied to you m’dear, because of your Mother. I wanted no more
of it. I’d had my say – c’est finis.

Truce it is, and I am very glad that you grew up to be such a loving and sensitive son – but then, our children did too.

Please give my regards and every best wish to your Mum.

Ttfn

Missy
.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@missy

 

You are John Major AICM£5.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

Interesting discussion you’ve been having… I’ve been checking in to keep up but haven’t had time to jump in. So here is my 50 cents for what it’s worth!

Back in the seventies when I was in school, there was still the threat of being sent to the Principal’s Office, where Mr. O.B. (“Oddball”) Elliott would whack you with a yardstick. Interestingly, I never knew a single person to whom this actually happened! I think corporal punishment was on its way out in Canada even then. Now, of course, there’s none of that in schools here.

I expect that this does mean that it is a harder job for teachers to keep the kids in line. But I have to say that, based on my own observations as a volunteer in my son’s elementary school, and based on his stories of high school, behaviour doesn’t seem to be any worse than in my day, and in many ways, school seems to be a better place to be. Recently, my husband asked my son what in his view was the biggest danger for kids at his school and he actually thought it was self-harm. Many of his peers are under a lot of emotional pressure to perform well at school and there seems to be a lot of anxiety. Even though he is only in grade 11, he is starting to feel it as well, and we spend a lot of time lately reminding him that whatever he is picking up at school, we don’t share the view that admission to a high-end uni or college is the essential end goal to his school years!

@purofilion   Son of Puro, I hope the revision is going well. Over here, the schools take shorter breaks in December and March, and the school year finishes at the end of June, after which they get all of July and August off. So Arbutus Junior will be facing his year-end exams in about a month. But right now, he is living the life: tolerating his classes while waiting for the lovely walks home in the sunshine with his girlfriend, with plentiful stops for sushi or bubble tea. He will be getting a job in the summer to fund his increasingly expensive lifestyle!  🙂  (He is a bit older than you, about to finish Grade 11.)

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@missy    A friend of mine with two sons told us about an incident in a mall parking lot, during which her younger son (then about six, and a real piece of work) was kicking up about something. When she picked him up to inject him bodily into the car, he starting bellowing, “Please, mommy, don’t hurt me again!” at the top of his voice. She laughed about it afterward but of course she was mortified at the time. Fortunately, the few people around seemed to understand perfectly well what was going on!

But the “nanny state” is increasingly real these days. I firmly believe that there must be laws to protect children from abuse and neglect, but there are frequent stories lately about parents being investigated for (for example) letting their kids walk to the park on their own. The most recent involved a parent whose kids were playing in their enclosed back yard without a parent present (she was in the kitchen making dinner, keeping an eye on them from the window, as you do); a neighbour called social services, who arrived at the door and started asking all kind of massively intrusive questions, and wanting to look in her pantry. I can assure you that if it had been me, they would not have been allowed in my house without the police at their side. I’m still shaking my head over that one!

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@purofilion    Way back on the thread, you asked me about experiences here regarding acceptance of differing sexual orientations, etc. I have to say that in my city, acceptance and equality are not really issues any more. Not everyone likes it, but the predominant social and political culture support it. I always have to remind myself, however, that no so far away, there are pockets of the population where it is a different story.

At my son’s school, they received the most thorough sex education that I could ever have imagined. They talked about things that would certainly have embarrassed me to talk about (which reassured me that they were doing the job properly!), and the culture at school is such that my son is well aware of the gay population (the “out” ones at least– one of his volleyball team mates is one of them, and there was never any issue for him on the team, which I think is telling).

The battle being fought around here these days is the transgendered one, specifically the bathroom/change room issue. But the problem is not so much with institutions themselves (in most cases, anyway) as it is with the beat back from less progressive citizens who don’t agree with the changes. And the kids seem to have no issue with any of it, which gives me great hope for the future. They are remarkably open minded about certain things that almost no one was open minded about when I was in school!

Okay, I have hogged the thread long enough. I shall go and have some breakfast.  🙂

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@puroandson

BTW, the term “politically correct” has been knocking around for decades, along with may variants, in leftie/ liberal circles as a way of mocking communists and other Soviet/ Mao apologists (the preferred variant when I was at LSE was “ideologically sound”). It was always mockery and often at our own expense if we caught ourselves being too serious.

It’s modern connotation was a creation of an article in (iirc) New Republic in the dog end of the Reagan years, later spun up to a book and was never intended to be gentle, but to claim the exclusive right to call black people ‘niggers’ back from black people themselves (among many other obnxiousnesses).

As we now know, during the 1960s and the 1970s there were no hippies and counter-culture types facing down heavily armed police, and certainly it was never more than in a gentle “let me stick a flower in your gun, officer” way. Similarly, in the later 1970s and 80s punks were just rackish fashionistas dressing on the cheap and never disrespected authority. And of course, there were no riots in 1980s London when an arrogant and ideological government tried to impose a poll tax. And, of course, nobody ever took advantage of live broadcasts to publicise their feminist/ gay rights/ anti-war/ anti-corruption. Ever.

@arbutus

That some children have the street smarts combat their parents is hardly new. Nor are busybodies, alas. What are social services expected to do? They get no thanks when things work and excoriated when they make mistakes leading to harm to children. And they are paid shit.

[Anonymous @]

@missy
“I should be interexted to hear what you would do with a child who screamed and screamed in the supermarket because her mother wouldn’t buy her some sweets, and no amoont of patient humouring worked?”

Since I don’t think anyone has replied to your question, which I think is a valid one, I will tell you what people do around here, as I have seen it happen. The parent tells the child he/she can scream as much as he/she likes, but he/she will not be getting any sweets. Once the child realizes the screaming is not going to work he/she will stop, if not at once, then eventually. Observers here understand this and just ignore the screaming, which facilitates the process, as the less attention the child gets for this misbehaviour the more quickly it stops. (I’m sure there are other methods but that is one that I have seen that seems to work.)

@missy
“However the story is true, and in the past (I haven’t told this for years, as this topic rarely comes up) all

who did hear it, laughed.”

“In the past,” as you say, lots of people might have found it funny, but I’m not so sure how many would today. I certainly don’t see anything funny about it in this context.

@pedant
“You are John Major AICM£5.”

Translation please. I’m afraid I don’t know that term.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@stitchintime

AICM£5

“And I Claim My £5”

John Major – former British prime minister who was a bit prone to absurdly romantic imagines of earlier times, usually involving redoubtable district nurses cycling down misty country lanes.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant
Unfortunately, that still did not tell me the significance or meaning of the expression, “And I Claim My £5;” however, I looked it up and was able to find information on it elsewhere.

It is said that most people tend to see the past through rose coloured glasses. I suppose this makes some sense, as why would anyone want to remember the crummy stuff? Indeed, I’ve also heard it said that people who view the past positively are generally happier than those who see it the other way or even just more realistically. But then, I am also reminded of K9’s definition of optimism; namely, “Belief that everything will work out well. Irrational, bordering on insane,” to which the Fourth Doctor responded, “Oh, do shut up, K9.” 🙂 (The Armageddon Factor [16.6]).

But now I can’t resist adding this:

The Doctor: Oh, do shut up, K9. Listen, Romana, Whenever you go into a new situation, you must always believe the best until you find out exactly what the situation’s all about. Then, believe the worst.

Romana I: Ah, but what happens if it turns out not to be the worst after all?

The Doctor: Don’t be ridiculous. It always is.

🙂

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@pedant   Fair point. I don’t disagree with regard to the responsibilities of social workers (and in many cases, they are not only underpaid but massively overworked). In that particular case, the response seemed excessive. But it is also true that they are frequently damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

@puroandson    Oh, boy, I was autopilot earlier! I see that I tagged you in your former singular, rather than your current hybrid, form. Sorry!

@StitchInTime    Excellent quote. I guess I am irrational, bordering on insane, as I do tend to believe things will work out well (sorry, Doctor!) However, I also subscribe to Sunny’s words of wisdom in “The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel”:  “Everything will be all right in the end… if it’s not all right then it’s not yet the end.”  🙂

[Missy @missy]

@arbutus

That is what I meant about being ‘nannied’.

They are now bringing out a law over here – and possibly everywhere else- where you are not allowed to smoke in your own house?

Now, I don’t care whether any of you oppose smoking or not, but this is taking things much too far. Even Merry

Christmas may soon be banned.

Ttfn

Missy

[Missy @missy]

@stitchintime

With you experience m’dear, of course you don’t agree.
By the way, the inicident happened in the past, but I’ve told it since and people did laugh because they used their imaginations, it was so visual.
As for rose tinted glasses, untrue. when you’ve lived thorugh the Blitz in London, you tend to remember it – and I did and do.

Ttfn

Missy

[janetteB @janetteb]

@StitchinTime. Well said.

@arbutus. Like you I have been following the discussion of late but not contributing in part due to other commitments. I once saw a forum tear itself apart over the smacking issue and so would rather leave that discussion alone now.

The topic of schools and excessive pressure on students is a different matter. I am certain it is not much different in Canada to here where I have realised that the excessive pressure on students is not for their benefit but for the schools, so they can brag about how successful their students are. I found out very recently that after two years the year 12 results count for nothing and there is a “Stat” for Uni entrance. So all that pain for nothing. grr. The pressure is not only harmful to the student but impacts on the entire family. Likewise the testing done throughout schools now here and in the U.K is putting undue pressure on kids and teachers and achieves very little. I learnt long ago that stress does  not enable children to learn better. When our eldest was six he was doing “spelling exams” at the end of every term and by term four had to study the entire year’s spelling lists which involved homework every night. I realised that he was getting stressed, thought “no way” and stopped the spelling homework. His mental health was far more important than a few test results. His results in those tests actually improved and he was far happier. He still has excellent spelling which he is putting to good use editing a novel for me.

Cheers

Janette

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@missy   It’s hard to imagine how anyone could ban smoking in someone’s own house? Or do you mean condos and townhouses, perhaps? If so, I must admit that I have some sympathy, as I suffer from allergies and a sensitivity to tobacco smoke (apart from the whole second-hand smoke issue). We have had problems over the years with the smoke from neighbouring yards and porches and so on, but there’s not much you can do other than put up with it. I can imagine in a condo where everyone is so close together, that it could become very frustrating if it prevents people from enjoying their balconies.

I live in a moderately dense urban neighbourhood (two- and three-level splits and townhouses rather than condos) and there is definitely an issue around one person’s right to do what they like versus another person’s right not to be negatively impacted by others. It can be a real balancing act!

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@janetteb    So interesting that you should say that, because I have discovered the same thing recently. A friend of mine, a well-educated woman with a son graduating this spring, had to go to the school and forbid counsellors to pressure him anymore about uni applications. He is not academically inclined (either in her view or his own), and they have been working together to identify career possibilities for him that will play to his strengths. But the guidance counsellor as good as admitted when she asked that they are required to push uni on the kids so as to increase their own stats. My own son (in grade 11 but with a lot of friends in grade 12) has said that they are regularly told that if they cannot get accepted to a “top” school (meaning Ivy League or Canadian equivalent), they will not be successful and will end up flipping burgers or something.

We have always told him that his choice of school should be dictated by how well that school suits his goals and personality, and nothing else. But boy, it’s hard work for him to take the high road, when all around him, bright kids with good marks are feeling pressured to retake courses if they didn’t get an A, and believe that perfectly reputable institutions are not good enough. Parents are part of the problem because they drink the Kool-Aid as well.

Oh, well, see above– “Everything will be all right in the end, etc.”  🙂

[Anonymous @]

@stitchintime and @missy

You know? I wrote this WHOLE  paragraph in response and then deleted it. But this is probably bigger on re-read.  Partly, Missy because you’re suggesting to Stitch that this person wouldn’t agree because of a personal experience -being hit. Like me. Like others: “With your experience m’dear, of course you don’t agree.” I would add why would they? They shouldn’t agree; not only from a valid personal experience but more importantly from being in civitas -we are organic groups in society living through the largesse of the populace and learning from our community thru evolution. What we do now is often better than what we did before -not the other way around.

At least we hope so. It should be because it is how societies develop and grow.

Same thing applies to student grades. It’s really difficult to achieve As and Bs in junior high here. The curriculum is harder than it was last century (harder than even 15 years ago). Son is smarter by far but receives less marks than I did doing silly projects on “WW1: who started it?” A fairly rudimentary question to find answers to on the internet these days whereas his task was an hypothesis: “Conscription was a necessary political device as voluntary service dropped in 1915.” Here Son has to not only study 15 sources but reflect on their quality and usefulness -which, ironically, despite reading the Task Sheet, I still failed to do with him. 🙁

So, life is harder. We’re growing and expanding and we need to take note of how much, for instance our civic duty is effected by health regimes governing those who choose to smoke, have no private insurance and yet require medicare to sustain their habits. Banning smoking indeed!

So @missy if you look at that article and read the entire thing it’s a smokescreen (yes, cute!) for understanding the low % level of smoking by QLD’ers. Also, the various politicians (on the same side) said “let’s deal with smoking at pools, beaches, libraries, school car parks and outside child care centres” first. Banning it in the home would be an issue of mammoth privacy and wouldn’t be passed in the Senate -leading to a DD which couldn’t happen either (because we’re having one now). How does Son know this? Because now he’s well educated about parliamentary democracy (I learnt that at age 19 which was pathetic, actually).

I think the smacking/hitting issue is a difficult and sensitive one. If Son was hit by me, he’d hit back and I’d be arrested. Is that right? I think probably so. It would depend on his mental state, mine, and how many times it would have happened before.

But yes, there are individual circumstances which dictate how we can sensitively run our homes. But, living in nuclear families with no communal effort in bringing up children is a relatively new historical development. Stresses are placed on mothers which, perhaps didn’t exist 120 years ago.

@janetteb I totally get where you’re coming from. I spend every day worrying about my son’s grades and yet to him I say “I don’t give a stuff: tell me right now what you learnt about conscription on the weekend (in other words what he takes away is more important than the silly C+ he received because he failed to select his source properly). His response:

Conscription was disliked by the trade unionists who had worked long and hard for equal pay. They feared, with men going to fight in Turkey and the Western Front, that the Aboriginal Australians would accept poor pay and this would be reinstated once the war effort was over. The farmers were opposed to it also as they had few able bodied men to complete the harvest. Many women were secretly opposed to it also having lost their parents in previous wars (the Boer War) and were worried their sons would die also.

Now that came from this head after writing and reading the info.

He still achieved a C+ but there’s no way at 14 that I would have presented such clarity. Not with the project-type History I succumbed to as a child of the ’70s. Colouring in, using flags, sticking in pictures and writing captions. Kids learn about hypotheses from the age of 10 now. It’s damn hard to get that winning grade and yet I really don’t mind that he misses that. In the end it will be what he knows.

So I keep telling myself! Inside, I’m torn up.

@arbutus (re purofilion -I’m fine with that. I read any post of yours because you write so well and with much respect and compassion). Ah, see, we are feeling similarly regarding our children. Son, despite his love of English is being told the same things by some teachers. Here, there’s more tangible choices beyond 18. Son will head off to do some voluntary work overseas when he’s 18. After that, there could be uni. Are universities great places in Aus?

Negative. Lecturers, bored out of their minds present tedious electronic lectures, tutes are cancelled, costs are enormous; the playful, sentient debates and expected rebellious ideas followed by the “so, what’s next?” questions are long gone. Universities, choked by funding problems are spitting out kids with below par understanding. The plumber up the road makes half a million dollars and the English lecturer who studied for 12 years makes 62K -if she’s lucky.

So, unis. not a fan anymore. There’s always I.T. isn’t there?  🙂

Not in son’s case -he can’t remember passwords let alone ‘code’ anything -bar the fridge door (which is new and has a code. Don’t ask me! I didn’t buy it!). And now we’ve tardised back to the Pub.

Kindest,

Puro-gone-nuts

[Anonymous @]

@stitchintime

on your recital of the “Young ‘independent’ Kids eating Sweeties” (YiKES ) – I agree.

The idea of ignoring the little ones who yell (YiKES) and demand their sweets at the check-outs is one which works here. It worked in the 70s when I was little too. Kids followed along screaming, snotty, lying on the floor and eventually got up and walked after their parents who blithely pretended it wasn’t an issue.

In the end a lesson learnt.

Of course there’s what I did. I never went shopping unless Son had a small bag of pre-packed nuts, a banana (a food in its own bag -what fun!) and some dried fruit. As soon as he finished, I was out of the check- out.

All it takes is imagination @missy as you yourself remarked.

Beer time!

Puro-

[Missy @missy]

I wish I hadn’t started this – well I didn’t actually, but you know what I mean. However, although I could answer

all of you, it really isn’t worth the grief of the ‘dead horse’ syndrome. Besides, I did say I’d finished the

discussion. We all have our opinions and I’m out voted, so do carry on without me.

This is supposed to be the Doctor Who Forum and other pleasures. In future I shall stick to that.

Ttfn

Missy

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@missy    I’m sorry! A lot of us around here enjoy a good debate, and you are as entitled to express your opinions as anyone else. No bad is meant on any side.

@puroandson   In Vancouver, we have had the parks/beaches etc. smoking ban in place for a couple of years. There was some griping at first but there’s been remarkably little complaint. Of course, then we had the city telling the dudes who organize the annual 4/20 pro-marijuana rally that they need to move it off the Art Gallery lawn (one of our traditional public venues for protest) and maybe take it down to Sunset Beach. To which the parks board replied, “Woah, guys, we have a smoking ban on the beaches now, remember?” And I think the city returned something along the lines of “Suck it up, buttercup,” and the parks board had to close an aquatic centre for the day to avoid the air intake fans filling the facility up with pot smoke! It’s a gong show around here, honestly.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@puroandson     Thank you for your kind words, sweetie!

I think that the internet is a great development for education, because in theory it forces the curriculum to become less about facts and more about analytical thinking. I’d say my son’s experience has been about 50/50, with some teachers really embracing that and others basically threatening them with the fear of death if they dare to look at Wikipedia. But after all, it’s early days.

As regards post-secondary options, we have plenty, and I imagine that schools serving different demographics possibly talk them up more. But at my son’s school (which we like on the whole, it’s a good one with strong academics and its heart in the right place), the message seems to be go big or go to the service industry. It’s a little crazy. Like Son of Puro, my boy is also planning a year of travel and volunteering. He’s very excited about the prospect of spending time someplace like South America, helping coach kids’ soccer. He needs to break out and see the world a bit, get a little independence, have some adventures. But for him, uni will definitely come next, because he is in fact keen on computer programming and design. There are actually some very innovative-looking interdisciplinary programs at some of the small universities here, with study-abroad options and co-op work programs. So we will keep encouraging him, and hopefully he will come to feel more confident in the validity of his choices.

Your fridge door has a code? Does that mean that if someone changes the code, you can’t get at the food? This might not be a bad thing for me.  🙂

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@arbutus @puroandson

I think the smoking at home thing might be something to do with 70 years of accumulated evidence that, not only does smoking kill you, but your exhaled smoke kills others. Including your kids.

Historical scientific irony: the link between smoking and cancer was first identified by scientists working in Nazi Germany. Perfectly legit, ethically sound research. But it was ignored for years because of the guilt-by-association.

When, at the back end of the 40s, the UK government started looking for an explanation for the rise in cancer deaths, their working hypothesis was that it was due to the increase in vehicular traffic. They were completely surprised by the link to tobacco.

Choices nearly always have externalities. Privacy advocates like to ignore that.

 

[Anonymous @]

@missy
“With you experience m’dear, of course you don’t agree.”

Well that, and decades of research on the subject, during which time plenty of data has piled up to demonstrate the unfortunate results. Nevertheless, the odd slap administered with positive intentions, although not recommended, is not likely to cause serious psychological damage; and, nobody’s perfect.

[TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros]

@puroandson

Thank goodness you re-wrote that whole post! Very good points and an interesting discussion! Well written

I’m very impressed that all of us on this forum could have had this discussion without it descending into madness, as is the case on many other places on the Internet!

On the subject of Schools and the pressure on students to achieve more, I can say that being in school right now it does feel that way. Exams have been getting harder and harder, getting into uni has been getting harder and harder, and teachers pressuring pupils to get into uni is getting more frequent. It is stressful and it doesn’t help when you’re given the inpression that anyone who doesn’t go to university will end up with a rubbish job (which is certainly not the case!).

What I would criticise most though is the lack of educating pupils about job applications and career paths on a whole! Honestly the lack of education about these essential topics confuses me! Instead they are determined to teach us about the misuse of alcohol and drugs (on a yearly basis!). Schools need to start letting their pupils know that not getting into uni isn’t the end of the world instead of giving pupils the opposite inpression that it is the end of the world! Of course we want university courses but we need to know what else is an option if not achievable!

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus
“I can imagine in a condo where everyone is so close together, that it could become very frustrating if it prevents people from enjoying their balconies.”

Yes, it IS, “very frustrating,” and not only is the tobacco smoke bothersome but so is the pot smoke! (*eyes roll*) I especially ‘adore’ the pile of cigarette butts on my neighbour’s balcony, as well as the ones that get chucked onto mine on a regular basis that I then have to dispose of myself. Grr!

@arbutus
“…there is definitely an issue around one person’s right to do what they like versus another person’s right not to be negatively impacted by others. It can be a real balancing act!”

Oh yes, and that too!

[Author]

Posts