Deep Breath

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  • #30587
    Anonymous @

    so @serahni do you think there’s a possibility she’d have children? Or would she happen to die around the time of her 27th birthday?  This then makes me wonder about how long Clara herself will live. In DB, Strax says, “you’ll do quite well” but to a Sontaran made for dying, 27 could be ‘quite well’?

    #30588
    midnyt @midnyt

    @silverman, I though that excuses line was just puro calling me out. (ie both you and puro gave arguments for Clara’s actions, and I called them excuses) 🙂

    The only excuse I have for the creatures in Father’s Day vs the Doctor jumping back in later on is: Fixed point? Maybe? Kind of like all of history happening at once in The Wedding of River Song. Supposedly that world (all worlds) were going to crash and burn if the Doctor didn’t die or at least appear to die.

    meh. never apply logic to who. at least not with Moffat at the helm. 🙂

    #30589
    Anonymous @

    @silverman @midnyt is correct -it wasn’t you, I think. Gosh, ignore what I say at the moment, flu and other sad issues today are making me forgetful and probably very rude. Please forgive me. I am not at my best.

    Also, with logic, I think that the arcs tend to be so long we can easily forget what Moff is up to!

    Kindest, puro.

     

     

    #30590
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @midnyt meh. never apply logic to who. at least not with Moffat at the helm.

    “That he’s mad, ’tis true,

    ’tis true tis pity,

    And pity ’tis, ‘its true.”

    ~Shakespeare

    I wonder why Eleven is so sure that Twelve will need Clara.  Eleven went out and found himself new friends even though Ten was so heartbroken you think he may never have traveled with anyone again.

    “The man who regrets and the man who forgets.”  What kind of man is Twelve?  The man who searches maybe, the man who is lost Vastra said.  Looking for Gallifrey, looking for redemption (I’ve made many mistakes, time I did something about that) , to find the answer of why he choose this face (could be a season long journey).

    The Doctor:  “Well it might be Clara, might not.  There’s a lot to it.”

    Door boring, not me lol.

    #30591
    midnyt @midnyt

    @bivium6 “I wonder why Eleven is so sure that Twelve will need Clara.” Well, he is the Doctor. I think its a combination.
    I think part of him telling/asking Clara to help him is for her as well. Take some of the focus off the “OMG he changed”. Isn’t it sometimes easier to do something knowing the other person is just as scared as you are?

    But also, I think he is afraid of what will happen if Clara rejects him. Clara is the only reason he engaged again after he lost the Ponds & River. I think there’s a very real danger of him turning in on himself again if she did reject him.

    #30592
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Interesting conversation regarding the Claricles. We know what caused them, but not what they technically are. I’m not convinced that “I’m born, I live, I die,” necessarily means that that physically happened. Could the Claricles have come into existence complete with memories? The Dalek Claricle created a whole artificial reality for herself, that’s a pretty strong psychic phenomenon. To me it suggests something a little more than human. Someone suggested that all the Claricles were being somehow directed by the real Clara, neat idea. I’m not convinced any of them were born in a normal way. And the two that we saw properly died saving the Doctor. It’s plausible that they might all have to die to save him.

    #30593
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bivium6  Good point, @midnyt. I would also say that Eleven regenerated alone, but he latched immediately onto Amy, to the point where he apparently offered to take a little girl with him in the TARDIS. He knows how much the Doctor always needs a companion.

    Bivium, I think the Doctor’s exact words were, “It might be Clara, it might not. It’s a lottery.”

    #30594
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  I’m honestly not certain.  I do like the idea that she gets to a certain age and that’s when she meets The Doctor and, through meeting The Doctor, she almost always dies.  It’s hugely tragic, (and would make a significant precursor to the fate of Clara Prime), but I’m not sure I can produce proof that this is the case.  It’s just an idea I like.  I think it minimises and concentrates her effect on the universe.

    I do, however, think that it would be a bad idea for Claricles to have children because it creates a wild card element all the way through time and space.  Clara herself can be contained by an idea such as reaching a certain age, saving the Doctor and then dying, but would any offspring be bound to her destiny?  Or would they go off into the universe, creating their own paths, their own timestreams, their own stories…all having been essentially created in an instant?  If one person (Clara) can make a significant difference to the universe (through saving The Doctor and replenishing his timeline), then what impact would a sudden influx of children, grand-children, great-great grandchildren and all the ensuing branches on the family tree have on the universe?  There was a Claricle on Gallifrey; possibly a Time Lady.  If she married and had children, and then those children had children, and those children had children…  Timelords live a very long time; would not those offspring still be alive on the displaced Gallifrey at this very moment?

    And that’s just one Claricle.

    Logic dictates that, given the amount of time The Doctor surely spent on Gallifrey, there was probably more than one Claricle on Gallifrey, (especially if they have a limited lifespan.)  Was there a young Claricle that had to help him when he was still a boy?  One when he was still a teenager?  How many times did she have to intervene to stop the Great Intelligence?  Potentially thousands for all we know.  If even a portion of them had children, we’ve got one hell of a huge influx of people spreading throughout the universe and some of them would very likely be Timelords.  Some might be other humanoid species.  Some might be Terrans.  No matter what, the mathematics is reasonably simple.  (I think.)

    1 Claricle has 1 child. = 1 additional person

    That child has 2 children. = 2 addition people

    Those 2 children each have 2 children. = 4 additional people

    Those 4 children each have 2 children = 8 additional people

    Those 8 children each have 2 children = 16 additional people

    Five Generations = 31 additional people in the universe if 1 Claricle has 1 child and the reproduction rate then averages at 2 children.

    Those 16 children each have 2 children = 32 additional people

    Those 32 children each have 2 children = 64 additional people

    Those 64 children each have 2 children = 128 additional people

    Those 128 children each have 2 children = 256 additional people

    Those 256 children each have 2 children = 512 additional people

    Ten Generations = 1023 additional people in the universe if 1 Claricle has 1 child and the reproduction rate then averages at 2 children.

    It’s not going to take many more generations for the figures to start to go through the roof.  (And I’m not even really very good at this kind of math, I’m probably missing something.)

    Thousands of Claricles.  Thousands of offspring.  Hundreds of thousands, even millions, of relatives.  All erupting on the universe when Clara Prime enters The Doctor’s timestream.  I really kind of feel like that would have broken something.  Thus, I think the idea of her being able to have children is a bad one.

     

    #30595
    Serahni @serahni

    @arbutus  You could be right, but what is the implication then of seeing a baby and a young, dark-headed girl looking out of a window during Clara’s flashback recount?

    #30596
    Anonymous @

    Ah yes @arbutus and @midnyt @silverman  this is interesting. So even when @serahni showed the ‘plot’ of Clara’s life, saying “I was born, I lived and died”, you’re suggesting that she wasn’t necessarily born.

    Much like Donna, in The Silence in the Library two parter, who had an idea and suddenly was there (ie: “I think I’ll put the children to bed” whereupon they’re in bed, having had hot chocolate, watched cartoons, read a book all in a pico-second), Clara could be transmitting images of herself ‘being’ a little girl, standing at the window (she couldn’t remember being born or even being 3-4 years old) and then suddenly, as the crow flies, finding her way to the Doctor’s life and saving him at her own expense.

    As a claricle, she’s not normal. Isn’t the idea of ‘being born’ mean ‘born as a claricle’ not as a real substantive figure with a real memory and a real, complete life?

    Hence, why some believe that Missy could be a claricle that’s misshapen (like Miss Evangelista), died, or perhaps not-quite-died (like Humpty) and ended up in Paradise/Utopia. Interesting that during the Victorian period, as well as before and after,  the concept of Utopia was born. The creation of a perfect place where all would be healthy, clean, fed and looked after. All with occupations committed to a community of like-minded idealists.

    Of course, there were freak shows and the travelling curiosity circus -Missy and Humpty would fit right in 🙂

    Kindest, puro.

    #30597
    Anonymous @

    @serahni  -the flashback is a creation by the claricle to protect the mind? Or by Clara, within the claricle,  but deeply within her subconscious?

    #30598
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  Possibly!  This is all getting hugely abstract and I just had to break my brain doing math.  LOL.  I think there’s definitely no doubt about it that there is a lot of paradoxical stuff going on with the creation of Claricles into The Doctor’s timeline and that, as a result, we are left with some very grey areas that are hard to explain.  Or hard for me to explain at least.  I certainly don’t have a strong feeling one way or another about who or what they are.

    But interesting…might Missy be what happened to Victorian Clara after she died?  Or is she an amalgamation of ALL the Claricles when they die?  If they all die at about the same age, it might result in a degradation of sanity overtime.  There’s certainly a parallel to her existence with both Claricles that we’ve actually met.  She’s dressed as a Victorian governess, (or appears to be), and seems to exist in a Paradise all of her own devising, a.k.a. Oswin’s psychological haven.  Maybe Missy is the resolution of one woman’s soul when it finally comes to rest after being scattered across time and space.

    #30599
    Anonymous @

    @serahni OK so let’s say she’s born as the image says “I was born and lived” then would she die when saving the Doctor? Every time? If so, and a sacrifice was mentioned, then she isn’t able to have children as she’s died too young for that to happen. Interesting:  to support your theory, Vastra says there’d be “millions of yous splintered through time”, or is it: “you’d be splintered into millions of pieces in the Drs ‘stream”. The same result, either way, I think?

    #30600
    midnyt @midnyt

    This reminds me of Amy in the short “Good Night” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LefejNy7mWU)

    She talks about how she never had parents, then he rebooted the universe, and she had parents, and has always had parents, and how she remembers it both ways at the same time. This is the way I see the Claricles. They didn’t exist until she entered his timestream, but now they do. I would think they are normal humans, even though they are echos of Clara. They are just not the original Clara. I also assume that the CloneDoc had a nice long life with Rose, and had kids, etc. I don’t dwell on that too much. 🙂

    #30601
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  Yeah, River says “a million versions of you, living and dying all over time and space.”  Or something like that.  Thanks for reminding me she said ‘million’ and not ‘thousand’, now my math-brain really is broken.  LOL.  But yeah, this is all a response to someone theorising that Clara’s mother could be a Claricle; meaning a Claricle would have reproduced to create its own creator…

    I need to go lie down.

    #30602
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @purofilion+@Serahni

    (freak shows) + (generations) =

    Maybe as a God of Ragnorak, Missy has been collecting the Clara’s.   She makes sure they die when they meet the Doctor, sending messages for Claricles.  Reanimate them as she did with Humpty.

    This is prolly getting way crazy lol.  But it would be a place for the Claricles to go.  But why?  She’s been planning it all along, maybe she was working with the GI…

    Their minds have sought to return to their bodies, if they could use the Claricles as shells….

    http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Old_One

    The Great Old Ones “The Celestial Toymaker and Gods of Ragnarok maintained humanoid appearances, while the Animus, Great Intelligence, and Fenric were noted for having multi-limbed bodies.”

    • time travel or following someone in time
    • existing in multiple time zones
    • possession
    • creating thunder and lightning
    • re-animating dead bodies
    • generating fog/fungus and webbing
    • stopping a TARDIS in flight
    • extending an individual’s life
    #30603
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @serahni  Well. If my theory were true, then that “vision” that we had of the baby and the young girl would presumably be a manifestation of the Claricle’s memories. Here’s a question. Who is telling the story? “I was born to save the Doctor,” and so on. Is it a Claricle? All of the Claricles, in a collective narrative?

    I certainly agree that if the Claricles were having children, the time lines would be a complete mess. And that suggests that either the Claricles all die, or after their encounter with the Doctor they cease to exist. As you say about the childlessness, I don’t think there’s any proof of any of this. But I think I am more convinced by the idea that the Claricles were literally created, as @purofilion suggests, Doctor-ready beings, rather than being born (of whom?) and growing up and influencing reality all over the place.

    #30604
    Anonymous @

    @serahni yes, that works, that the end result is the issue, perhaps not whether she was “born, lived and died”. To live in someway is to save the Doctor, if she’s not living for long, then she’s remembering the concept of life from Clara Prime in which case, Clara Prime is also feeding her memories into the claricle’s subconscious about ‘youth’ and ‘child hood’ in order to give the claricle some sense of self -otherwise she’d be ….what…..?

    Too insane to actually help the Doctor when needed.  She had to be incredibly bright and clever to fulfil her dedicated purpose. To save the Dr required an immense mind that sees all -like Bad Wolf I suppose. So, that’s another connection or splinter. Bad Wolf is like the claricles….so Missy is like Bad Wolf gone a bit wrong. Rose Bad Wolf -not the weapon, although that’s not impossible either 🙂

    So, yes, I like it  Serahni -your idea of degradation of body (her eyes and that growl -eek) and soul, ending up in Utopia (a version of such from Victorian England wearing  clothing and a perfect umbrella from that time, with a similar coif!). Millions or hundreds or even just 12 of them (claricles) must end up a bit nutty. Did the first one we see (Oswin) die as the Dalek? Imagine a humanoid dalek. What would that do to any gal, huh? Not much that’s good.

    The fact there’s a Papal Mainframe where people go to worship ….something… where Tasha Lem “died many times before she gave up information” says something about there being a future or ‘heaven’ for these beings. That’s established.

    Kindest, puro (this is the first conversation I’ve had in real time as you’re in Melbourne and I’m in Brisbane!)

    #30605
    janetteB @janetteb

    Maybe each Claricle has one child, a girl, who has one child, a girl. Clara is her own mother, grandmother, greatgrandmother and on and so forth. That would apply to all the Claricle’s scattered around the universe. That does require that Clara be identical to her mother, which she isn’t however it would account for her mother’s early death, (possibly saving the Doctor from an auton though he didn’t notice at the time.) Or maybe each Claricle is the end of the line in the family. Clara is an only child and presumably has no children. Assumably the Claricle’s sacrifice themselves for the Doctor before having children unless they each reproduce the one Claricle. Is Clara a “foundling” in previous lives or does she always have the same parents? If not surely she would have different DNA.

    I often wonder just how much thought Moffat has given to the matter. Has he devised just how the Claricles are born, live and die without disrupting the time/space continium? Moffat does seem to be rather good at devising simple solutions to complex problems so I am hopeful that some of the questions about Claricles will be addressed at some time in the future.

    This is  what I love most about the Moffat series arcs. They provide so much to theorise about…

    cheers

    Janette.

     

    #30606
    janetteB @janetteb

    BTW @serahni I either never realised or have forgotten that you are “across the border”. I should have realised given that you are also on “the day shift”.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30607
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  You should come down to Melbourne in October to Armageddon and we can ask Jenna ourselves!  I can imagine the look on her face when we start theorising about her being her own grandmother.  LOL

    Keep up theorising, guys!  I love reading it all, even if my brain struggles to keep up with the paradoxial loops.  I really am starting to like the idea of Missy having something to do with Claricles at least, whether it be harvesting and manipulating them as @bivium6 suggests, or if she just IS a little piece of all of them after they die.

    @janetteb  I barely posted much back in January when I first joined, this has been the most I’ve really said and it’s only been in the past week, so I think you’re forgiven!

    #30608
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @serahni    Love this! All the Claricles rejoin and become, not Clara, but Missy. Very cool. In fact, a powerful challenger to @bivium6’s “Gods of Ragnarok” theory. I think that if that one isn’t true, Moffat should just bring the Gods of Ragnarok back anyway. I think they’d make great opponents for Twelve.  🙂

    #30609
    Anonymous @

    another conversation in real time @arbutus -gosh, is it late over there? 🙂  Yes, how would the claricles be born?

    Not to get too geeky about this but she’d be conceived and then hang around for 27 years before being useful. If you jump into the person’s timestream, do you control the event at some point?

    I could say that the GI knew what he was doing when he ‘jumped in’. So, ergo, Clara jumped into the wardrobe (like Narnia) and wished herself in a particular spot at a certain time; the narrative is established by Clara Prime and slipped into the claricles’ consciousness in order to protect their minds and to simplify their being-ness before then focusing on the claricles’ specific obligation and sacrifice. She was, impossible, after all, so not being born would help right there!

    #30611
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion   Tasha Lem “died many times before she gave up information”    I’d forgotten about this, and at the time, it puzzled me. How did she die many times? It seems to imply something that I am just missing.

    Oh, @janetteb, good point! Clara’s mother died quite young. Was she, in fact… twenty-seven??? And no one every seems to talk about her death, so it could have been some inexplicable, don’t-want-to-think-about-it thing like an Auton attack.

    #30612
    Anonymous @

    hello @janetteb mmmm. Maybe you could fly to Melbourne and I could too and then we’d meet Serahni and say ‘we’re part of the best Forum there is on Dr Who, can we have a private interview with you, Jenna.’

    We’d need to look damn hot, I’d say. I’m sure you and Serahni can do that!! I’ll carry the tape…thingy…and do the selfie thing with both of you and Jenna. Hmm. what month is it? Spring nearly.

    Okay, so a claricle could be born to a claricle and then work into each new Doctor’s life  -on some timeline that’s manageable. That has to cook as an idea -it’s beyond me and too clever, Janette!

    Kindest, puro

    #30613
    janetteB @janetteb

    We see Clara as a baby not we do not know how she came into being. I do imagine her, (despite my previously stated absurd theory that she is her own mother) as being found swaddled up on the doorstep. We don’t know that the woman seen nursing her in Victorian LOndon is her natural mother. IT is suggested though that her parents in modern london are her parents. Um. The modern Clara is the original and we don’t see the parents of the “Claricles” so it is possible that the Claricles are born of Claricles so that restores that theory a little.

    @serahni. I might be in the Grampians in October. Close but not close enough.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30614
    Serahni @serahni

    @arbutus  I think either would be really nifty!  (And yeah, bring back the Gods of Ragnarok anyway!)  But it occurs to me that perhaps some of this speculation and cloak-and-daggers around whether Jenna is leaving the series or not is because there are spoilers wrapped up in it all.  Maybe Jenna is leaving but Clara is staying. In some form or another.  Perhaps as an insane woman with an umbrella.  LOL.

    #30615
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion   It is exactly 8pm here. The three of us are all sitting peacefully on various internet-connected devices. Two of us are drinking wine and listening to some funky southern Italian folk-music. One of us is pondering the puzzle of a woman split into a million versions of herself, and what happened to her. (I don’t know what the boys are thinking about.  🙂  )

    She was, impossible, after all, so not being born would help right there!   This is pretty funny, and unarguably true.

    #30616
    janetteB @janetteb

    Two posts while I was typing. You guys are good. @purofilian. I love that suggestion. What time in October is it?

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30617
    janetteB @janetteb

    @arbutus that sounds just like our family of an evening. Right now two of us are sitting at the table with laptops drinking coffee, one boy has gone off to see a film and the other two are still sleeping. (Though they should have been up hours ago. Teenagers!!!)

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #30618
    midnyt @midnyt

    @arbutus, the Daleks would kill Tasha and restore her only to kill her again trying to get the info they needed.

    DALEK: Information concerning the Doctor was harvested from the cadaver of Tasha Lem.
    DOCTOR: Bet she never told you how to break through the Trenzalore forcefield, though. She’d have died first.
    DALEK 2: Several times.

    #30619
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion and @janetteb  Oh gods.  I can see it now.  “Jenna, we at thedoctorwhoforums.com have this idea for an alternate version of Doctor Who where you will play your mother, your grandmother, your great-grandmother, your next-door-neighbour, your geography teacher and The President of the United States.  Would you be interested?”

    Also, is it just me or is it starting to sound like Tasha Lem is getting swept into this Claricle debacle?  EVERYONE IS A CLARICLE.  THAT’S THE TWIST.

    #30620
    midnyt @midnyt

    @serahni I still subscribe to the theory that Tasha was a personification of River.

    #30621
    bivium6 @bivium6

    Clara’s Mom was 45 when she died Arbutus

    Now I’ve gone completely gone mad lol.  I’m putting this together from everyone.

    Missy is connected to the Claricles.

    The Great Old Ones can

    • time travel or following someone in time (Claricles follows the Doctor, she knows what the Tardis looks like inside out, it’s smaller on the outside)
    • existing in multiple time zones (Clara to send the Claricles to save him)
    • possession (Clara takes over her echoes to save the Doctor, Run you Clever Boy)
    • stopping a TARDIS in flight (she was able to fly with the TARDIS)

    Clara doesn’t know she is one of the Great Old Ones!!  Missy does, she’s like all the Claricles put together.

    #30622
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus the Daleks say that Tasha Lem died many times before giving up (or failing to give up) information. She actually said at one point “I died” and then looks oddly at the Doctor, who is still chucking marshmallows about and typically not working out the puzzle (as Clara said, he’s doesn’t have the attention span to do them).

    So, she’s a real person and then is dalekised and then uses the dalek-ness back at them and shatters them with their own weapon. Much like the Dr in the same episode, who uses the regen energy back at the Daleks.

    So Clara’s mum: hm, back to the soufflé: “the soufflé is not the soufflé, it’s the recipe” Is that right? So, the Clara is not the Clara it’s the things that make the Clara: the claricles. So the claricles are in a sense, drawing upon Clara (the recipe) in order to follow their obligation/duty and become another claricle….. That would fit with Clara’s mum as the most important person in the world.

    I think the Dr said this, the leaf provided this as evidence, and Clara herself is always quoting her mum who is a very wise, wry woman.

    #30623
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @serahni, it’s beginning to look as if there is nothing that Moffat can come up with that someone on here won’t have twigged before it happens.

    @midnyt   But since when can the Daleks bring someone back to life whom they’ve killed? Have I missed something? Probably.

    @janetteb, yes indeed, that teenager sleeping thing. My son has been outdoing himself this week, I think in a last attempt to get it in before school starts again. And then he sits up in his “cave” half the night skyping and playing nerdy computer games with his friends.

    @bivium6   Oh, too bad. Another good theory down the factual drain.

    #30624
    janetteB @janetteb

    I often wonder if Moffat is reading through our posts and either laughing at how wrong we are or thinking, “um I could use that idea”.

    @midnyt I would have liked Tasha to have been a personification of River too because the “yet another woman whom, Time Lord Casanova, has been flirting with” annoyed me a little but I can’t come up with a theory to justify it. (yet anyway.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #30625
    midnyt @midnyt

    @arbutus I don’t think that was ever explained. However the Daleks are geniuses with advanced technology. I don’t doubt it’s possible. I also don’t think Tasha was human. While the Doctor aged on Trenzalore, she did not. While I suppose it’s possible that something in the Papal Mainframe could have kept her young, I don’t think that’s the case.

    #30626
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    I remember that she died and was dalekised, and that she said (or they said) that she was killed many times. But I didn’t see how she could have been brought back to be re-killed. But do they kill people before converting them? In which case, it would make more sense.

    #30627
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @arbutus

    Kill Tasha, wipe the memory they killed her, “kill her”, wipe that memory etc is the way I was thinking.

    #30628
    Anonymous @

    @bivium6  whoo what an idea. See, I don’t know anything about the Old Gods (?) so of course I shall now check it out.

    Coz it sounds very similar to what we’re getting at. But would Clara, who jumps into the timejumble of the Dr, be an old God? Are you saying as Clara Prime she was already an Old God? Would this be why she manages to survive in the Drs timestream?

    @janetteb I don’t know, I’ll ask @serahni “what time in October is it?” 🙂

    #30629
    midnyt @midnyt

    @janetteb I’m sure Moffat has enough trouble slogging through the emails people send him tryinging to get person a or b onto show c or d. LOL. But I know he’s been shown some of it. He mentioned the WhoLock video in one of the Sherlock talks.

    If Tasha’s not a personification of River, I honestly believe we were meant to think she was. So same difference for me. 🙂

    #30630
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Good point, @midnyt, Tasha was presumably not human. Very long-lived? Or somehow preserved due to her role as head (or high priestess or whatever she was) of the Papal Mainframe? (Which, by the way, is such a great name for a church!)

    @bivium6, that would also explain why she was confused about having died when she finally told the Doctor that. I always found that scene fairly creepy and effective.

    It’s all getting terribly complicated. Clara, Claricles, Clara’s mother, Tasha, Missy. As Strax might say, all these women! (If he could remember that they are women, of course.)

    #30631
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @janetteb     I often wonder if Moffat is reading through our posts and either laughing at how wrong we are or thinking, “um I could use that idea”.

    If not the second, then he is dumber than I think he is!  🙂

    #30632
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @purofilion Are you saying as Clara Prime she was already an Old God?

    Maybe she forgot (I don’t know where I am), or rather, the Old Gods sent her to destroy the Doctor and she is undercover, Missy is when she remembers and accepts her mission.  I’m pretty much making this up as we go lol.

    #30633
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus Lem is an interesting being. Neither alive nor dead, perhaps. She is ‘harvested’ and then her  in-human part ‘dies’ and then is brought back -not necessarily by the Daleks. She is already a part alive/part hologrammatic creature so she would come back (anyway) and as others said “she doesn’t age”  -like a god in that respect. So, the Daleks keep ‘reaping’ her mind and are unsuccessful. Like cyber-mats, she becomes (like the priests) a dalek-mat/dalekised.

    I wonder about the importance of the claricles you know. We spent years wondering about The Silence and how it/they would fall. In the end, they were those to whom you’d confess- be shriven. They then fell to Trenzalore and kept the place from bringing back the TLs.

    I don’t know if Moff will spend too much time explaining the claricles. If in fact he will refer to them at all from now on!

     

    #30634
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion @janetteb  Melbourne Armageddon is October 18th-19th at the Royal Melbourne Showgrounds.   http://armageddonexpo.com/au/

    After speaking with my cousin tonight, it’s almost a foregone conclusion that I will be attending with a 9-year-old K9 and a 5-year-old Dalek.

    #30635
    bivium6 @bivium6

    My last sounds too much like River.  I’ll take some time to think this through.

    I didn’t think Missy was connected to Clara till reading theories here.

    @serahni After speaking with my cousin tonight, it’s almost a foregone conclusion that I will be attending with a 9-year-old K9 and a 5-year-old Dalek.

    Sounds awesome 🙂

    #30636
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @everyone – :re Tasha not aging?

    ::cough:: Liz Ten ::cough, cough::
    😉

    #30637
    janetteB @janetteb

    @serahni I think that is a bit late. The (as yet essentially unplanned) trip to the Grampians will be early October when Vic and S.A. school holiday’s coincide. I do really like the idea of having our own Oz meet up at some time though.

    @purofilian I fear you may be right, re’ the Claricles story being complete in Moffat’s eyes but it certainly isn’t in ours so that leaves us free to devise our own, varied solutions to the problems that arise from it. Sometimes  I think it is more fun that way. Of course the Claricles are floating about our there in the universe so he might well meet up with one in the future. What better DEM than to produce a Claricle at the critical moment to save the day. I would love that to happen, just once, just for all the DEM citing critics out there. Just as Moffat wanted Jenny to live because the character had the potential to serve a narrative purpose later so too can all those Claricles. (If I ever try my hand at “fan-fic I think I will have to end with a Claricle saving the day.)

    Cheers

    Janette

     

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