Deep Breath

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  • #30513
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @arbutus The Gods of Ragnarok can reanimate dead bodies.

    Do you guys think we’ll be spending more time in Victorian England, the Doctor will bring the Paternoster Gang on important adventures, or we’ll just see less of them?

    #30514
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus –    😛  Ahhh…I get it now. You give me waaay to much credit.  I would have never figured that out on my own.  😀

    #30515
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bivium6    Okay, you win. Missy is clearly one of the Gods of R-r-r-ragnar-r-ok (clearly brought back into the story because there is finally a Doctor with the accent to pr-r-ronounce it pr-r-roperly!).    🙂

    #30516
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bivium6    Oh, and if we’re taking bets, I betting on about once per season for the the Paternoster Gang. Unless they make an appearance outside of their place and time, as in NotD. I think (hope?) we will not be seeing too much of any one time/place. As I remember, that was one of the biggest complaints of the first couple of AG seasons, that they spent too much time on Earth.

    #30517
    Rob @rob

    @arbutus waves hello civilisation,  just been working 6 days a week and the places I work in are usually without 3G coverage hence absence of my bonkers….. However the coffee percolator is fired up and by holding my tablet in the air whilst hopping  on one leg I can post s l o w l y

    Meant to add to my heaven no heaven hell no hell bit earlier that perhaps the TMF/CAL is a bit like Hades where all go especially when assisted by a Sonic Screwdriver further delving into Romano Greek mythology

     

    #30518
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @Rob Like crossing the river Styx?  The Sonic bypasses the need for the ferryman.  Norse mythology is like that too, if you are a great warrior you get to go to Valhalla (Sonic), everyone else just goes to Hel.  At the end of time, the warriors of Valhalla fight to save the world.  Hmmm. I like this.  So Missy has her own Sonic device?

    Yes, this is why I’m so set on Ragnarok, I love Troughton, McCoy and Norse Mythology lol.  I have to stop otherwise I’ll be sad if I’m wrong.

    Speaking of, working 6 days a week without 3G sounds like Hel.  I suppose you are safe from the WiFi though lol.

    #30519
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @silverman – why isn’t the giant dinosaur in the history books? Because it’s only Episode 1.

    I really doubt that, having provided an explanation for the Giant Stompy Robot, we’re not going to get some kind of explanation about Giant Lonely Dinosaur. But Moffat has the whole of S8 and S9 before he’s got to explain it.

    #30520
    geoffers @geoffers

    @serahni – lovely defense of clara! i would add that she clearly stated to HFM that she was afraid for her life, after the doctor left her on the other side of the door. she knows he makes mistakes, sometimes (big burning dinosaur included), so her confidence in him was at an all-time low…

    @ everyone else – has anyone worked up a theory as to why missy’s “paradise” is so bright and vibrant, while it was rather empty and drab in amy’s visit in TGWW? (assuming it’s the same place, in-story, and not just a recycled shooting location?) do the current events happen before those of TGWW, or after?

    i think the similarity is intentional. i also prefer to believe (at this early point) that missy is a new character, not someone recycled/re-purposed…

    🙂

    #30534
    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilion @barnable @bluesqueakpip

    All good points and theories about explaining the dinosaur’s presence in ‘our’ shared history. Three days after watching the episode, and as many have pointed out, I think I’m probably best to wait and see how Moffat ties it all up. If he does explain the size and the fact that loads of Victorians witnessed a massive dinosaur then fair enough – I guess as not a massive fan of huge swathes of the past two series I’m not convinced that he will though.

    @arbutus – I’m afraid I’d have to disagree about Loch Ness and Bigfoot. As far as I’m aware both legends gained traction by supposedly being witnessed by one or two people in isolation – never by hundreds of people at one time. I reckon events witnessed by many people in Victorian London would still make it into history even if they weren’t at a ‘1066-level’ and taught in schools.

    @serahni – I also have problems with the Victorian guy saying it was the government If the general public in the present in films like Godzilla are going to scream and run away instead of saying “I bet it’s Derren Brown”, then I’m fairly sure the average Victorian person would soil themselves and run away.

    @scaryb – I have no problems with accepting that Silurians existed in history within the show, but within the show they are a secret to most people in the present, ie – they didn’t show themselves to hundreds of people in the past. As mentioned, the show itself obviously considers this a point or Smith’s Doctor wouldn’t have felt the need to explain why no-one remembered the massive Cyberman.

    As said though, we should wait to see if Moffat explains it – there could be many timey-wimey explanations to come. (I should probably not complain so much about something after episode one of an entire series!)

    @purofilion – fair point: Moffat has done a fair bit of history…I just find it done in a bit more of a throwaway manner. Instead of an episode based around Dickens, and facts to base a story on, you get Churchill as basically a walking-impression-best mate/window dressing. *BUT*…as you have said, the show’s main purpose should be to entertain, not educate – it’s not Horrible Histories.

    @bivium6 – YES! the vagaries of time-travel in the programme have mildly irked me too. When Rose stopped her dad from dying all hell broke loose, the Doctor was NOT happy, and weird things came to sterilise the wound in time. In that instance – quite rightly – the Doctor said it was dangerous to be in his own timeline. Then, at other times, and definitely with Tennant it’s all about ‘I can’t go back on my own timeline’. We then had Matt Smith’s Doctor zipping all over his timeline to free himself from the Pandorica. I loved that episode though, especially all the paradoxes…I just wish after implicitly stating one thing in one story, that they would explain why they can contradict it later. (to Nit-pik: Captain Jack makes the Tardis go crazy and throw them to the end of time in one ep…is fine to ride it problem-free thereafter.

    (It’s pretty late and I should go to bed, so I apologise for pedantry while critiquing a TV show…)

    #30535
    Anonymous @

    Morning all. 60 posts in the in-box ! Hello to you @rob good to see you back.

    I think I recall saying that a) the fella Alfie (not Ed as I thought) said Dino was “the govt…and it’s in the neck, it’s not realistic enough”. He was off to the pub before being ‘eyed’ and I imagine other mates of his (proto socialists) would have wondered the same thing.  b) the Roman metal helps to remind us and the Doctor (later) where his current face gains inspiration.

    I could also suggest that in the Roman camp during The Big Bang there were many ships hovering above. Daleks were one such race and yet there could have been a Madame SS……….having time-slipped via ‘windows’ into ‘Amy’s favourite Roman time’ -or whatever phrase she used: Hunky Romans?? (typical Amy of course) . So we may need, with the Doctor, to visit that particular era.

    @miapatrick I like your theory about CAL -possible?

    Kindest, puro

    #30536
    Anonymous @

    @silverman I think the reason that the 11 th Dr goes back and forth in his own time-line in the Big Bang was explained by him -he said that most of the universe no longer existed; that even little Amy disappeared. They (River, Rory, Amy etc) were at the centre of that point -the last things to go, so jumping between points (there were never stars in that set of episodes) was acceptable. I remember when they meet the Silurians, Amy and Rory see themselves waving -they’ve come back to the same place on holiday. The Dr says “just stand back”. He’s glad they see each other but doesn’t want any more communication.

    #30537
    Silverman @silverman

    This may have been covered here already, but while I liked it the first episode of the new series, ‘The Girl in the Fireplace’ is still one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, and the references in ‘Deep Breath’ backfired a bit for me as it reminded me – in my humble opinion of when fantastic effects, comedy prat-falling and jokes – while great in many bits of Moffat’s stories – didn’t get *in the way* of a great story.

    #30538
    Anonymous @

    Sorry @silverman that’s what I meant to say -they (the Dr) implicitly explained why the Dr could jump in between the Pandorica and that time -the universe was collapsing.

    #30539
    Anonymous @

    @silverman do you mean there was comedy, prat falling….in the Girl ifF story or not? Or did you say it didn’t get in the way?

    In the GitF the Doctor acts drunk, wears a lei (or something); there’s a horse on board which he rides thru a mirror and on and on. Did you think that there weren’t those ‘tools’ in Deep Breath, or that there were? Sorry, I need coffee to help!

    Kindest, puro.

    #30540
    Anonymous @

    Hi @purofilion – nice connection on the Roman metal/Dr face.   I was trying hard not to remember his face from Pompeii, but at the same time the Doctor was trying to remember it. 🙂

    #30541

    @silverman

    We then had Matt Smith’s Doctor zipping all over his timeline to free himself from the Pandorica

    And that ended up with the universe needing to be rebooted…

    #30542

    No particular hook to hang this on, but the “it’s too obvious to the Master, Moff would never be so obvious” meme, that I’ve seen few times, rather airbrushes out of history that it was screamingly obvious that Amy was River’s mum.

    However, I do also recall quite a bit of theorising of the bonkers variety around the number of shots that were constructed from a computer’s point-of-view (especially in DOAS and TPOT). That’s not come to anything. Yet.

    I do get the sense (although I have no specific evidence) that something very surprising and possibly shocking is planned for the relationship between the Doctor and Clara.

    #30543
    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilion – sorry, I wasn’t being very clear. Yes, there was comedy, and prat-falling in the GitF, but IMHO it doesn’t get in the way of the story.

    As many people have pointed out, much like Eric Bana’s Nero in the first Star Trek film, the Robot story in ‘Deep Breath’ plays second fiddle to the main story of the regeneration aftermath – and that’s out of necessity, so I may be being unfair. What I meant was that in making references to the GitF I was reminded of that story, and for me the robots in ‘Deep Breath’ suffered in comparison.

    By extension, I’m then reminded of a time when the show – again in my opinion (don’t want to offend anyone!!) – featured comedy in the stories – in that example: the horse, Drunk-Doctor, Mickey in general – but it was still emotional, and great story. In *some* of Moffat’s more recent stories I tend to think that bombastic speeches and spectacle *can* sometimes get in the way of the story.

    While I’m on the subject, I’ve found that Moffat sometimes just states that ‘story X’ or ‘action Y’ are amazing, as opposed to actually making them so, or depicting them as such. I really didn’t like ‘A Good Man Goes to War’ (I think that was the episode – the one with Colonel Runaway in it). Matt Smith was great as usual, but I didn’t like the story. In part it was because it seemed to be one of those episodes where they shoe-horn in loads of characters to re-use old costumes. But MOSTLY, it was because they kept banging on about the Doctor ‘rising higher than ever before’. I know there was a caveat about ‘falling again’ after that, but ‘higher than ever before’?!? Really? With the help of weaponised friends he breaks onto the space station, but ends up falling into a trap. How is that higher than a myriad of accomplishments of the other 10 versions of himself? Off the top of my head:

    10 saving the lower half of the UK from Nuclear annihilation? Saving the World from the Sycorax? 9 healing all the infected in ‘The Doctor Dances’ “Everybody lives!”? Smith’s Doctor sending everyone away at the Pandorica? And there must be loads more of Doctors 1-8 that I can’t name…

    Sorry! I got into ‘rant-mode’ there… maybe it’s bed time?

     

    #30544
    Silverman @silverman

    @pedant @purofilion – good points about the Universe rebooting/collapsing. I love that episode anyway, so I’m glad to have reason not to have ‘fault’ with it!

    There’s still the contradictions between the time-travel in ‘Father’s Day’ then the rule about not travelling back along time-lines…or have I just answered my own question? Maybe that’s why they can never travel back along the same timeline thereafter…

    #30545
    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilion @serahni @arbutus and many others…

    Clara has been the subject of much debate on here recently, and I thought I’d throw my two-pence-worth in about her coping with the regeneration.

    Clara’s been ok as a companion, but I haven’treally warmed to her backstory, or been convinced of her as a realistic character. However, Jenna-Louise Coleman has been good, and was great in ‘Deep Breath’ and the change between Smith and Capaldi’s Doctors, and her adjustment to that is going to be an interesting story.

    (I should declare that my knowledge of ‘Old Who’ is an 8 year old’s memory of my favourite Doctor Peter Davison, then the betrayal and deep, deep disappointment of Colin Baker – an 8 year-old’s pain! Noooo! I would never watch again!…but I obviously did. However, my memories of it are vague and I can’t really remember any part of the old stories – other than being scared by the vampire in Curse of Fenric).

    So in terms of regenerations Eccleston’s was the best in my opinion. It was moving, powerful, he didn’t moan about changing, he tried to play it for laughs to make Rose relax, and he tried to warn her. His sign-off was the best too – “and Rose? You were brilliant…absolutely brilliant. And d’you know what? So was I!”. Rose’s reactions were great too – absolutely in keeping with witnessing such a strange (to her and to us) process, that robbed her of her friend.

    It’s occurred to me that Clara has undergone the reverse of this (bear with me…). Rose possibly loved Eccleston’s Doctor, but it was mostly a close friendship. She was weirded out by the transformation, but once she gets over the change and realises it’s the same person, but different, she relaxes – but this ‘time’ he’s more charismatic, younger, and fanciable – no wonder it escalates to love.
    For Clara it’s the reverse – She knows the Doctor is 2000 years old, but she’d only known him looking ‘about her age’ so it must – from a human’s perspective – be easy to think of him as a more relatable, and possibly fanciable, figure when he was played by Matt Smith. To see that person change in appearance and character to someone so -pardon the pun – ‘alien’ must be bad enough, to make them suddenly appear to be someone twice her age makes it worse.

    #30546
    Anonymous @

    @pedant – I can see Moffat wanting to put his own stamp on the Master, like he did with the cybermen. 

    The computers and the Missy/Master theory could all be connected.  I still think there is a chance Missy was controlling the dinosaur somehow.  If she is inside a virtual reality mainframe, then just like the computers in tBoSJ controlling the spoonheads, Missy could have used them to control the dinosaur.  Possibly the cyborgs too? 

    I hope the Clara/Doc 12 relationship stays the way it was in DB for a while.  For the first time I felt  the banter between Clara and the Doctor was beginning to click.

    #30547
    Anonymous @

    I re-watched the end after the eleventh phones Clara and then Capaldi says: “I wasn’t [listening] and I didn’t need to: that was me talking” followed by “you look at me and can’t see me. Have you any idea what that’s like…I’m not on the phone, I’m right here, standing in front of you”.

    He finished that off with a drop in pitch as if he’s realised there’s no hope; she cannot be convinced. The phone call set up the conversation properly, outside, in Clara’s earth world. He was the one looking out of place and feeling it.

    The newness of the Doctor feeling embarrassed. Mainly that an older man (2000 years earth years) was convincing a young girl (to me any one under 30 is really young!) that he wasn’t sexually attracted to her -or that, maybe, he had been and that now he needed to accept that this was a cute foolishness; brought on by “will you be my boyfriend, for Christmas” etc.

    He tried so hard to be human throughout this incarnation: playing soccer, working, drinking coffee; meeting families, hugging and shaking hands, fixing the toys at the house where Clara worked and accompanying her to various ‘events’.

    I remember boy Ilion squirming during this scene and I said what’s wrong? He looked away from the screen & said, “they’re gonna kiss aren’t they?” I said “no, no, listen to what he’s saying” and he replied “it’s never what they say, it’s what they don’t“.

    OK Mr 12- year old. You probably have it right! But the Doctor is an alien- even Madame Pompadour sensed his essence and that his world was too terrifying or uncivilised.

    It wouldn’t be wrong for Clara to think his world is too “out-there”, either. Combined with “oyster-hugging” the TARDIS and seeing her Doctor age (in what to her was a day) together with this new version of (but ‘not brand spanking squeaky new’) ‘Doctor’, it’s plausible that she’d require a decent amount of time for everything to sink in. I find it interesting that companions seem to make that decision to accompany him  quickly. With Martha, it was “come on, one quick trip and then back. I owe you”.

    Rose also said ‘no’, then when the 9th came directly back, she ran into the TARDIS. Only Amy was the girl who waited. I think most people would need some time? Or maybe that’s the quality the Doctor likes in his companions: they’re not people with a whole load of immediate responsibilities. Of course, it’s a “time machine, Martha, did I mention that?” But then a woman with three kids wouldn’t be his companion. Wouldn’t ‘suit’ him. For many reasons, he has his own decision tree about the quality and usefulness of a companion: such as the young Muslim doctor in the God Complex (miming “I’ll phone you“).

    As the Doctor was persuading Clara to “look at” him, the score is lovely. We don’t have a lot of piano music and then muted horns in Who; generally, it’s quite full orchestrally. I liked the piano, with its austere Anglican cadence as it stripped away the Doctor evoking a new face but the same man. Also, it was poignant, light and intelligible. Full scores indicate the action and confusion of the moment: sometimes unintelligible, technicolour without form, babbles of detached molecules. Here, it was simple, rarefied; an elegant question mark for Clara.

    Kindest, puro.

    #30548
    Anonymous @

    @silverman – Most of the rules about time travel have come from the Doctor himself.  He breaks almost all of them eventually.  That’s why I like the rule from River, “The Doctor lies.”

    #30549
    midnyt @midnyt

    @silvermanre: A Good Man Goes to War – I’ve never felt the “rising higher” was a positive thing.   I think that’s exactly what River was calling him out on, and I don’t think she was out of line to do so (as someone else mentioned).  “The man who can make an army turn around at the mention of his name.”   That’s what I always thought she was referring to when she said he would rise higher than ever before.  The falling so much further is for me, the fact that he can make an army turn and run, but yet he can still be fooled.  Not only that he was fooled in the same way he was before.    (The “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” thing)  Also, that may be part of what he’s talking about when he said he has made mistakes.  I think his intentions were always good, but the execution got off track.

    Regarding Clara again, I think the problem is in the writing, and if Moffat had made me care about her at all in the previous season, I might accept some of the excuses people are making for her.   But we only had 1 episode of her that showed any potential and that really just wasn’t enough for me.   If anything, Moffat made her a plot device for Capaldi to play off of and there is no doubt he did so wonderfully.   It’s an absolutely beautiful moment when the Doctor is asking for her to see him.   Hopefully Moffat sorts out this hit or miss writing with her moving forward.

    #30550
    Anonymous @

    @silverman @midnyt

    Yes the Doctor rose higher as he fuelled and then fulfilled the very old legend: “Demons run when a good man goes to war.” As Dorium said to Manton: “He’s raising an army and collecting on his debts”. Vastra also said “Look my friend: they’re leaving. You’ve never risen higher. Not a drop of blood was spilt.”

    So the several points put together -the army he raised with his friends and the legend he fulfilled was then contradicted when Kovarian says “the battle’s won but the child is lost”. I would assume that this is him falling further than before. He was fooled twice and his arrogance, typified in that episode, led to the creation of the ‘River weapon’

    OOh Silverman; excuses we’re making? Hey, come on: myself @serahni and @arbutus have given some verifiable arguments for why Clara was able to act her pretty as* of in DB. If we’re making excuses then we too would actually be agreeing with you, but no, they’re not excuses at all -arguments and evidence, plainly and at times, beautifully written. It’s in the subtle nuance of the argument and also the DB episode itself. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    I must mention @barnable and @scaryb who have also presented some convincing arguments for why Clara is either improving as a character or did a bang-on job in DB.

    But different strokes. Hopefully, in the next few weeks, Moffat will be able to provide you and all of us with something that we like and that’s to our taste!

     

    #30551
    midnyt @midnyt

    @purofilion

    I suppose arguments would have been a better word.  I didn’t mean it in a negative way towards anyone posting.   🙂

    Like I said, I have hopes for the future now that we’ve gotten the regen out of the way.

    #30552
    Anonymous @

    no, I know @midnyt I was just chuckling -I did add 3 smileys to be sure!!

    #30553
    midnyt @midnyt

    Gotcha  🙂

    We’ve had a lot of troll sightings this week.

    Gotta make sure we don’t scare of the newbies who aren’t trolls.

    #30558
    Rob @rob

    Sneaks past @fatmaninabox with extra large mug of coffee and sips it surreptitiously glancing over shoulder

    @Purofilion waves a big hello 😀 nother slow day in Mudville but at least not raining

    @midnyt Clara is a great companion,  sacrificing herself three times on screen for the Doctors and probably many many times over off screen, she has to be mentally strong and thus a member of the awkward squad to resist Dalekisation etc which will make her not easily likeable 🙂

    As to scaring off the newbies I think our current Doctor with his accent and eyebrows would at times raise them in wry amusement “I want that coat!!!!!” Hehehe

    @bivium6 WiFi lmao you cheeky beggar lol and yes the Doctor as the Ferryman is kind of appealing a non judgemental facilitator to the promised land

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Clara could see River, resist Dalekisation,  enter the Doctor’s life thingymabob etc my pet theories are Jenny or daughter of or Susan or something else

    One of the many reasons I so like this forum is…….. That I have a really bonkers idea and whilst scrolling through the discdiscussion see that it has already been posted,  discused, and usually dustbinned before I even thought of it

    Keep up the fantastic discussion one and all 😀

    #30559
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Something else I’m just gonna throw out there: what if Clara’s mum was one of the Claracles?

    #30561
    Serahni @serahni

    Firstly, completely unrelated in a sense but Jenna Coleman is coming to Armageddon here in Melbourne this October.  My 5-year-old and 9-year-old cousins are massive Doctor Who fans, (we raised them well), and they have just informed me that they intend to dress up as K9 and a Dalek to go have their photo with Clara.

    How can I argue with that?

    @pufferfish  There really does seem like there should be something more about Clara’s mother, doesn’t there?  Her entire family are mere glimpses through a window to us, I’m not even sure I actually know HOW her mother died.  Clara being her own mother, however, is just hurting my brain. *lol*  What a trip that would be!  (And also kind of gross.  Her poor father…)

    #30562
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    I don’t think of the Claracles as total Claras – think of her dispersal as links in a kind of recursive-paradox DNA chain. Clara’s mum did die on the date mentioned in ‘Rose’ as the day of the shop-floor dummy attack. If we’re willing to concede the possibility of a restless/spurned Claracle becoming Missy (which I don’t really like as an idea) then we’ve got to concede that there were Claracles who married and had kids, too.

    #30564
    thommck @thommck

    @pufferfish For some reason, I believed all the Claricles to be infertile, even if I just made that up, it would be a good way to dead-end all the “older Clara” theories. I’m not a big fan of that as there are just to many possibilities from the sheer amount of Claricles

    We see a Claricle gets “born” in one episode so they certainly have the ability to age but we don’t know if they live past the age of Clara as she entered the timeline. Maybe they just spontaneously combust ;). It is kind of implied that if a Claricle fails to save the Doctor then she dies. We certainly only saw that on screen and she was also roughly the same age each time. Whether that was just good timing or an actual “rule” we will probably never know.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think Clara’s mum is definitely important and is something that will be re-visited.

    ———————————

    @pedant Well done remembering the P.O.V. shots from the previous series. That definitely implies that someone was watching Clara & the Doctor and steering them together.

    ———————————

    One thing I just wondered about was why did the Doctor go sniffing for chalk and then find it behind a radiator? Is that a common thing for Victorians to have? I found this earlier reference to chalk in a the Fourth Doctor’s debut episode, so perhaps it was just a nice throwback

    4th Doctor and chalk

    BTW, that picture was from quite a good post-episode article for all us fact-fans 🙂 http://www.buzzfeed.com/tardiswiki/deep-breath-stole-more-than-just-a-dinosaur-from-xnui

    #30565
    Anonymous @

    @thommck I also wondered what he was sniffing for at first. I thought he might have been sniffing the baddy out: not chalk. Any way, for various reasons, I feel done in.

    #30567
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  I hope you start to feel better soon!

    @thommck  I tend to agree, since I don’t think of the Claricles as being particularly well-formed individuals.  (Still on the fence myself about Missy being Clara.  That doesn’t somehow feel right.)  Each exists to rescue The Doctor and, as you mentioned, every incarnation we were shown was roughly the same age as Clara Prime.  The two other Claras we’ve met seem to live pretty independent lives, almost as if they’re intentionally (if not consciously) avoiding connections and complications.  If Claricles married and had children, those children are a creation of her paradox and cannot be contained to her sole purpose for existing.  It feels like that would have some pretty significant implications.

    Then again, that could be the point!

    #30569
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @silverman

    the Doctor said it was dangerous to be in his own timeline. Then, at other times, and definitely with Tennant it’s all about ‘I can’t go back on my own timeline’.

    The one that bothered me was Journey to the Center of the Tardis.  He went back on his own time stream to save himself.  If he could do that, there would never be any tension in the show, why doesn’t he do it all the time.

    @serahni

    Pretty interesting point, it’s like they’ve been programmed, and they die at the same age as Clara was.  What if all of them in the past die at the same age Clara is, they are born exactly that many years before an event?

    #30570
    bivium6 @bivium6

    They all had to be in exactly that place exactly at that time…Just like Clara was.  She blew into this world on a life.  She makes it sound as if her life is just as planned as one of the echoes.  The woman in the shop told her where she needed to be.  Maybe all the echoes have their own “woman in a shop.”

    #30572
    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilion – I’m really sorry, I’m probably being massively dense, but I didn’t quite get what you meant when you wrote this (post #30550):

    ‘OOh Silverman; excuses we’re making? Hey, come on: myself Serahni and Arbutus have given some verifiable arguments for why Clara was able to act her pretty as* of in DB. If we’re making excuses then we too would actually be agreeing with you, but no, they’re not excuses at all -arguments and evidence, plainly and at times, beautifully written. It’s in the subtle nuance of the argument and also the DB episode itself. 🙂 🙂 :)’

    I’d written 2 or 3 big posts and not quite sure which bit you were referring to – sorry! Was I making excuses? And about what? Sorry to ask for ‘clarafication’ (ha ha). I have had my hang-ups about Clara, but thought she was good in DB, with some realistic emotions on display. However, I’ve never quite warmed to Clara, or for that matter, Amy after series 5. But I guess that’s the beauty of this programme and it’s ever-changing roster of timelords and companions – everyone has their favourites, and sometimes you have ones you don’t get on with, or (rarely) those you just plain dislike (*cough cough* Colin Baker!).

    I’m still trying to gauge how to put things on here as everyone seems like a friendly bunch, but I do like a good argument and after trading blows with people who are pretty rude from the off, on things like The Guardian and Den of Geek, as I write what I’m thinking I start drifting into ‘rant mode’, for which I apologise. That’s probably as a result of how I feel about the show – I started going off it after series 5, but still retained a love of the show and the concept, and still enjoy watching it, even if I still feel my favourite episodes are behind me. Some of my favourite episodes have been Moffat-written, definitely…but S6 onwards (again: In my very humble opinon!) I felt that it started to get messy. I think there’s a trend where Moffat makes ‘his’ Doctor and companions ‘better’ than their forebears. So ‘his’ Doctor lives for the total of all the other Doctors’ ‘lives’ and is depicted as being more powerful and better than ever. Gone are the ‘normal’ companions who are believable humans, replaced by the uber-perfect ‘girl who waited’ and the ‘impossible girl’.

    *pauses for breath and braces to receive criticism* – be gentle, please, ha ha!

    #30573
    Silverman @silverman

    @midnyt – good point about the ‘rising higher’ – I’ve never considered it as a criticism before, or at least not being a positive. I still think that achievement was overstated though. Either that or it’s pacing meant that the achievement of staging the rescue mission just didn’t ‘seem’ as great as the other feats 9, 10, and 11 achieved…

    @barnable – very true. I keep forgetting that Moffat and the Doctor lie. I should probably learn not to get so hung up on the little details!

    I’m still puzzled by the sterilizing creatures in ‘Fathers Day’ though – with all the hopping around on internal timelines after that episode why have they not appeared since?

    #30574
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @Silverman @Barnable

    http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/12/wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey-top-5-doctor-who-paradoxes

    Big Bang, Father’s Day, Curse of Fenric, Blink, City of Death

    The Doctor Who and Philosphy book tries to explain some of these with modern science, closed causal chain, reverse causation.

    @Silverman

    I think there’s a trend where Moffat makes ‘his’ Doctor and companions ‘better’ than their forebears. So ‘his’ Doctor lives for the total of all the other Doctors’ ‘lives’ and is depicted as being more powerful and better than ever.

    I so completely agree with you.  I love Moffat in indiviual episodes (and Sherlock) but as story arcs go, I like RTDavies.  Rewatching some classicWho, I see other series changing stuff (Ace being sent to Gallifrey to become a Timelord), so I do give an inch, but he takes a mile.

    @Serahni

    Think the Clara echoes have to die for the Doctor everytime (as they have so far)? It would be paradoxes resovling themselves.  They all do have many things in common, being a teacher instead of having kids.  They all remember Run you Clever Boy.  Maybe the only time an echo has to help is when it’s life and death.

    I just realized I have a favorite Clara (Dalek Owsin).  Makes me wonder if I like the current Clara as much as I thought I did…  She’s not Oswin.  But then the Doctor is not just the Second, he’s all of them.  I love the mirror there.

    #30575
    Silverman @silverman

    @bivium6

    Nice link about paradoxes – I’d forgotten that line about ‘never crossing your own timeline, except for cheap tricks’. As many have pointed out, the Doctor lies, and most of the rules have come from him.

    As for ‘Father’s Day’, I’ve remembered that the Doctor said that because there were 2 versions of him and Rose, that that point in time was vulnerable – maybe that’s why the weird creatures came? Although, still, why wouldn’t they appear at other points ‘like journey to the centre of the Tardis’ when the Doctor has crossed his own timeline? Possibly, because it’s do with Rose’s dad dying, and by extension that having a bearing on the type of person the Doctors’ companion would become, maybe that made that point in time a ‘fixed point’…

    Also nice to see that someone sees what I mean about Moffat’s Doctor. I particularly like the line: ‘so I do give an inch, but he takes a mile.’.

    #30576
    bivium6 @bivium6

    @Silverman

    You know, one of the reasons it could be vunerable, that is the same car, the one that killed Pete, that almost killed Clara’s dad.

    @pedant Well done remembering the P.O.V. shots from the previous series. That definitely implies that someone was watching Clara & the Doctor and steering them together.

    @thommck

    Hmmm…that is interesting.  The Doctor never notices Clara, she saves him without him even knowing.  She knows what to do, she dies for a guy she’s never met.  It’s Clara’s will that the echos dedicate their lives to and for the Doctor, and someone making sure she is in the right place at the right time.

    This could bring up all kinds of neat free will stuff.  What if someone walked up and said you are an echo, go die for a guy because I said so.  Or gave you a phone number that led to your death.  Are they a murderer?

    The Doctor said he has to make up for his mistakes.  What if part of that is all the Clara echoes.  All the people who died for him over 2,000 years.  Are they people?  The Almost People, the Rebel Flesh.

    #30577

    @bivium6

    watching Clara & the Doctor

    It was actually the Ponds and the Doctor initially.

    You need to be a little carefully, following the great dreamcatcher debacle of Season 6 – Moffat likes to chuck theme-y cruft in as stylistic flourishes, rather than clues. That may apply to the POV shots.

    #30579
    JemmyBoy @jemmyboy

    I loved Deep Breath – don’t understand why some people were so against it. Sure it will never meet expectations but when does anything everrrrr?

    I loved the intrigue surrounding Missy – definitely NOT the Master.

    Think you guys might find this interesting – has a run down of all rumours on her real identity https://www.hubub.com/199971/202048

    #30580
    Serahni @serahni

    @bivium6  Sorry, I’m not sure I explained what I meant very well.  I agree that Clara herself seems to have a preprogrammed destiny that just loops around and repeats itself, possibly at around the same age.  My argument was against her having a family and reproducing because her children would be another matter entirely.  They might not be bound by the same kind of containment as Clara and would go on to have children of their own, who would have children of their own and that might get complicated, especially as the Claricles themselves keep on ‘resetting’.  I guess it’s not proof that it’s impossible, it’s more my argument as to why I don’t think it would be a good idea. *lol*

    #30581
    Whisht @whisht

    hmmm @serahni (and others) – imo I always assumed that Clara aged 27(?) jumped into the Timestream and split at that moment into ‘thousands’ of 27 year old Claricles who appeared in specific moments in the Doctor’s timestream when he needed help. (oh don’t ask me how she knew how – erm, she just kinda knew!).

    So she never was a baby Claricle – but reading upstream am I wrong and actually she was shown as a child? Girl on swing… that was Clara herself I thought.. hm happy to be explained to!

    But, there’d be no reason for a Claricle to not carry on living into old age, having kids etc etc.

    and these Claricles don’t share memories with Clara herself – they are all distinct people in their own timestream (not psychically linked).

    But that was just me watchingrather simplistically, so where’s the fun in that (must be tired! 🙂 )

    [now, if it turns out that Clara is a Claricle then I’m giving up. Unless she’s her uncle – that I can deal with]

    🙂

    #30582
    Serahni @serahni

    @whisht  In the flashback of the Claricles saving The Doctor, the second time around after she’s actually jumped into his timestream, Clara herself says, “I’m born, I live, I die.”  And you see an implication of her being a baby in a mother’s arms, then a child standing at the window.  You can see it here.

    #30584
    Whisht @whisht

    ahhhh…. thank you Serahni. Really sorry, was basing thoughts on poor memories!

    Actually that 3rd person account of herself absolutely throws up all the confusions for bonkerisings – hurrah!

    And I’d forgotten how that scene was meant to ‘explain’ the Impossible Girl.

    I really should watch this show rather than just see it!

    🙂

    #30585
    Anonymous @

    @silverman  indeed my apologies:  I did have 3 smileys! It’s just at some point you had said that ‘people were making excuses for Clara’. My response was to say that @serahni and others had produced some great arguments for why Clara was now (more than ever) an interesting character. Usually when someone says “that’s an excuse” they might mean we’re excusing her behaviour/her acting/the character for no good reason -but I was chuckling remember? Anyway, if I offended, as always it’s down to me & I apologise -sincerely. I agree about the flame wars on other sites. Here, the mods would burn us up like Gallifrey.  But I would hope we’re on out best behaviour because we enjoy the debate, the argument, the evidence and the fun!

    @whisht  and @bivium6 I believe that Clara jumped in at the point at which she’s 27 years old -as whisht said clearly. Before she jumped in, she hadn’t appeared (as it were). The GI was doin’ the same thing and was prepared to undo the Dr’s good works. Clara saved the Dr and most certainly lost her life in the process. She was there as her own puppet intervening at the most vulnerable point of that Doctor’s incarnation . Which is everything you’ve basically said! Sorry!

    As for JitCotT  it was an episode completely inside the TARDIS (is that right?). As for no nasty ‘creatures flying in’ like in Father’s Day, we did have those awful double heads -as I call them- as the time stream multiplied around them in the tardis.

    Perhaps being in the TARDIS meant that ‘attack creatures’ couldn’t get at them. Now that Gallifrey exists again (in a bubble/pocket), eventually found by the Dr ‘the long way round’, I expect that time could again be controlled.

    I recall Number 9 saying he could have stopped these perversions or time monsters (from Father’s Day) together with the Time Lords when they all ‘existed’.

    Kindest, puro

    #30586
    Anonymous @

    @serahni and @whisht you were right! Sorry, my post came after you posted yours. I was damn sure she wasn’t born in these ‘places’ and she was after all. My apologies -again 🙂 “I born, I live and die”.

    Kindest,

    purofilion

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