Deep Breath

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    janetteB @janetteb

    Good point @purofilion about Clara’s claim about being born in a clock tower. I had forgotten that.

    The watch could not be the one from Human Nature as he gave that to Latimer. Matt Smith did wear a stop watch. Maybe giving that watch away was merely another signifier of the shedding of the Eleventh’s persona. It was an essential part of his costume which this new Doctor has no need for.



    Anonymous @

    @serahni – Interesting that you should mention the Cybermen. I mentioned earlier that ‘Missy’ was also the name of one of the female soldiers who got ‘deleted’ in Nightmare in Silver. The Cybermen, it seems, are up to something that I can’t mention at this stage due to it’s ‘spoilery’ nature but I’m placing my bets on a connection between the two characters.

    Regarding Mancini – it’s an Italian surname that means ‘left-handed’ or ‘on the left’. Another word which means the same is ‘sinister’.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    After another re-watch (I’m getting a bit addicted to this), I have a couple of questions that puzzle me, and I’d be interested to hear what others think.

    First, when the Doctor is going to sleep, and seems to be translating what the dinosaur is saying, at the end he says, ‘Can’t see me’. As Clara points out, the doesn’t seem to apply to the dinosaur’s situation. And of course at the end it becomes clear that this is probably the Doctor speaking for himself, not translating Saurian. But does that mean that he was really speaking for himself all the way through that passage? An ambiguity rather similar to that with the Nimon at the end of The God Complex.

    Secondly, another question about Missy. One of the things she says is (referring to the Doctor), ‘I do like his new accent though. Think I might keep it.’ What on earth does that mean?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Hmm if missy is a physical manifestation of the tardis might not the garden be somewhere within the tardis itself which means the android/cyborg is in the tardis, as I doubt the doctor would have left it where it was. But if missy is the master and the android is in the tardis flash backs to chameleon come to mind and those of us who remember him know what happened there.

    ABXY @abxy

    @fivefaces Okay, strange theory here, but what if Missy saying “I think I might keep it” is in some way suggesting she knows future/other incarnations of the Doctor, but prefers this one because of the accent? As I said just a weird theory… :3

    Anonymous @

    Hello @fivefaces yes I asked/covered that too! @abxy

    I said that possibly she’s the TARDIS as who else would be able to elect to keep his accent? To what extent are he and TARDIS one?

    As to the verse ‘the wind bites down and the world is grey and I am alone here, can’t see me…’, I believe like most of this ep it belonged to the Dr and the dinosaur. Just as the Dr in the mirror speaking to the android about brooms was also talking of himself. Is he unhinged? Or is it that the idea of regen could be repugnant to him in some way?

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @purofilion Apologies, I missed that from earlier. The idea that she’s the TARDIS is interesting, but putting the TARDIS (or the Vortex?) into that form is surely no easy task. Two instances spring to mind: Rose as Bad Wolf, and of course something involving House again: could House be making a reappearance?

    @abxy Yes, I also thought this might mean that she in some way sort of is the Doctor, or some future or kind of parallel incarnation thereof, which perhaps brings us into Dream Lord/Valeyard territory. The mind boggles.

    Serahni @serahni

    Clearly the answer to all of this is that Gallifrey is Earth, all the Timelords have their Timelordness locked inside the Clock Tower, this makes Clara either Romana or Susan or The Master or the Rani or Rassilon himself and Missy is the Cyberman’s ‘Borg Queen’.

    Season over, you can all go home now!  *lol*

    (Hugely tongue-in-cheek-, I never remember enough cross-over details to come up with legitimate theories.)

    Anonymous @

    @fatmaninabox of course, Sinister, the Left, the ‘evil woman’! Thank you sir.

    Now, on the horse, he’s mixing up left and right (metaphor ridden wasn’t it?). At one point he says “2nd question” and instead of putting up an index finger as you would, he holds up a hand (the right hand -either hand fits any argument). But I most liked the fact that the android’s hands didn’t match and neither did the body parts in The Doctor’s Wife when the TARDIS became a woman -sorry I’m shocking with titles! So, for a second it reminded me of the evil ‘House’ grabbing the spare parts of time lords whirling thru the multiverse and sending messages to lure them. The advertisements to The Impossible Girl had the same effect but any human (even children) could be popped in the larder for later!

    Anonymous @

    @fivefaces you posted your House idea the moment I posted mine. The joys of many minds entreating others!!! Love it.

    Anonymous @

    @fivefaces sorry that’s in post 30160. Yes, the Dream Lord crossed my mind and then I had to take a Deep Breath. I don’t think it’s the TARDIS -much as it would be nice, but no, Missy seems evil (mancini). Now in music droit means right I think,  I think. Just love the droit/d/sinister/left/right implications and of course it reminds me of Turn Left which as an idea is nutty and with which it has nothing to do. Direction is always key in Doctor Who but not just left and right -I’m thinking like a 4 year old with a pink painted pinkie so I know when to hop left in ballet class.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Second thought on the Dream Lord/Valeyard theory. I think this is unlikely, since Moff would be on extremely thin ice if he did create a female version of the Doctor, and she turned out to represent his dark side. I don’t like the implications of that.

    Anonymous @

    @FacesFaces uh hah I get you, but whilst I was thinking valeyard I attributed that to the new Doctor. But the idea of the Dream Lord as Missy would be odd, the Dream Lord talking about himself as a girlfriend. Mind buzzes. I see the problem with the implications for sure.

    So, she’s the Mistress/Master! After all, she’s still time lord but perhaps changed? The Missy character from  Nightmare in Silver is interesting -noted by others above. Will she be the Doctor’s (new) wife as ‘missy’ short not for mistress but pronounced as ‘missus’ (Mrs).

    Whisht @whisht

    really loving all these theories everyone!
    And lovely to see familiar names (and new ones too!).

    @fatmaninabox – ‘Mancini’ = “left-handed” – wonderful!

    Now, Missy…
    I like the idea that she’s a splintered persona of the Tardis. But I love @purofilion’s “missus” as well!!

    “I like his new accent – I think I might keep it”.
    Well she is talking to a robot that was harvesting body-parts. If she is also planning on harvesting some parts of the Doctor, then she may be planning on now keeping the accent (though getting rid of other bits like hearts, feet, fingernails etc etc!).

    Whisht @whisht

    oh – @bluesqueakpip – how many times would you like me to say that in one breath?

    (oh yeah! oh yeah bring it on baby, uh huh….)


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb Other possible connections with Missy and Clara. As well as the Mary Poppins = Governess that you spot in #30141, both ‘Master’ and ‘Mistress’ are old terms for a schoolteacher.

    Clara and Danny Pink are obviously positioned to be reminiscent of Barbara and Ian – both teachers at Coal Hill School. But between them they are both school ‘Mistress’ and school ‘Master’.

    @fatmaninabox – the Master has made temporary alliance with the Cybermen before, in The Five Doctors.

    Serahni @serahni

    Sitting here reading theories, enjoying the links people make.  I have always loved my Who but I don’t find I memorise the tiny details as well as some of you, probably because I’m usually braindead by the time I have an opportunity to watch anything.  (Either that or seriously multitasking!)  Keep them rolling, they’re good fun!

    I have been also sitting here thinking that, whilst Clara’s reaction to the new doctor seems understandable, especially if we’re accepting that she represents the audience in some ways, it’s also kind of interesting to note that her inexperience with what to expect and how to handle it kind of suggests she hasn’t retained much of anything about her splintered selves.  Theoretically, she’s the one companion to have at least noted all the different variations, even if maybe this is the first time she’s ever been close enough to him for it to affect her personally.  She’s also MET two other versions of him and got along really quite well with them, Hurt’s Doctor in particular.  Of course, it can all be rationalised away by simply saying that she was closest to the 11th and, with that whole boyfriend/girlfriend vibe, there’s more of a sense of loss to be felt, but part of me is kind of also hoping that these theories about her having some kind of link with the Doctor are true and that, in fact, her wariness now is not so much a reaction to his change but because somewhere, some part of her is sensing something about him that it doesn’t like.  She’s right through his timestream, who knows what wibbly-wobbly vibes she’s getting from future Claricles.

    Possibly she knows this Doctor spells her own doom even?

    Anonymous @

    so I’m now muddling between 2 theories -one where @barnable first suggested that Missy is an elderly Clara or that this Missy is a female Master. Blimey, I need to put it all down and watch it time number 3. You all have some great detailed interpretations!

    My head explodes! Kindest to ya’ll, puro.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht – only once. But you have to project it, as if to the back of an auditorium, while walking about and waving your arms in approved Victorian style.

    Closest I can get to ‘fleeing crazed organ-harvesting droids’. 😀

    ConfusedPolarity @confusedpolarity

    Gosh, this place is good! So many theories in such a short space of time 🙂 Forgive me if I don’t name-check the brilliant people whose comments have inspired these ramblings of mine – I’ll only get confused, and unlike the Doctor I don’t have the excuse of regeneration to blame…

    The new theme tune, which I decided instantly I loathed, is actually a bit of a grower.  Having watched the episode itself, and the Doctor Who Extra on iPlayer (fascinating, once you get past the narrator who quite clearly thinks we’re all slightly dim and in need of having our heads patted now and then) a couple of times, I now think it’s inoffensive, and might even be bordering on perfectly acceptable.  At this rate I’ll completely approve of it by the end of the series 🙂

    The thorny issue of the Independence referendum…. I think it was @jimthefish who suggested the gags imply a slightly mocking “No” from Mr Moffat – although, as Clara points out to the Doctor, he doesn’t actually have a vote! An independent state of Eyebrows; probably blaming the English; being able to complain better now… just as well it’s a Scots writer giving those lines to a Scottish actor 🙂 Being English myself by the way, I though they were all hilarious. If we can’t send ourselves up, as per the “You’re Scottish! Fry something!” moment in The Eleventh Hour, what’s the point of bothering 🙂

    I’ve been doing my own bit of bonkers theorising about Missy (again). Like @fivefaces, I can see that they’d be on fairly thin ice making her the Valeyard, but perhaps that would be an incentive for Moffat to do it 🙂 ? She’s a form of The Doctor already – therefore he can take female form.  Of course it’s rather unfortunate that it takes the amalgamation of his darker elements to prove it, but maybe it could be sold (like the female Master theory) as evidence that regeneration into a woman is possible in the future?

    Personally, this woman would rather that didn’t happen.  Call me old-fashioned, but I’m used to a male Doctor. If there’s a need for a good female Time Lady, why not bring back Romana? I know people talk about the “lack of female role models” on television, but I can’t think of that many good ones for boys either. Too many men are portrayed either as harmless fools kept in line by their womenfolk, or thugs!

    Alternatively well, as others have said, that garden in the Promised Land looks awfully TARDIS like, doesn’t it? Could the Old Girl (Sorry, she’ll never be “Sexy” to me, it just didn’t feel right) really be up to no good? Perhaps, if she thinks it’s the best way of teaching her Time Lord a lesson!

    The more I watch, the more I believe the “choice” of that particular face is the Doctor’s message to himself – “save someone” as Donna told Ten.  I suspect we’re being set up to believe Twelve is far “darker” than he really is, hence my doubt that he actually pushed the droid.  One of them was lying about their basic programming; the creature is now more “human”, being able to appreciate the beauty of the view… is its basic programming still intact at all?  I’ve seen some internet speculation that the Doctor himself is going to be the Big Bad this series, but oh, how I hope it’s twaddle!

    I’m pretty sure it is.  The BBC wouldn’t risk their global asset; Moffat and Capaldi are too much fanboys to even try it; and of course if there was something that drastic on the cards, it would’ve leaked by now 🙂 But my word, they’re milking the ambiguity!

    Personally I already know I’m going to enjoy this series (unless they do spring that nasty plot twist) more than I have in ages.  I never connected with Matt’s Doctor; he was too manic, there was something too knowingly kooky about the characterisation from where I was watching.  Already I’m more engaged by Peter’s version than I have been in years.  If he keeps this up, he’ll be the most “The Doctor” anyone has been in my eyes since Doctor Tom himself.


    WhoGirl @whogirl

    Ok, having said yesterday that I think Missy is a completely original character, I have just read through all the recent comments and starting to believe she has got to be something more than that. I forgot- this is the Moffat era, and nothing is that simple! 🙂
    @fatmaninabox – I like your theory about Missy being connected to the Cybermen in some way. I’ve read some rumour-type stuff about the Cybermen being a big part of this series, and the more I think about it the more I reckon she has to be linked to them…
    ( @serahni – I enjoyed your theory about the world being Gallifrey- it wouldn’t surprise me if you were close!! Hehe 😉 )

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    My theory is that Missy is Clara’s biological Dad (or Grandad). ‘No, Clara….I am your father!’


    The incidental music is really rather brilliant. Enjoy.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Is this Missy ??????


    (Found on Whopix)

    Check it out at 52 + minutes in on DOTD…

    Hidden in pain sight… (Can’t believe I’ve never spotted this!)


    Evs @okies

    Hi all,

    in TOTD Clara says to The Doctor “haven’t you ever invented a boyfriend before?” And he says he has and it didn’t end well.  My question is, does anyone else think that is somehow related to all this boyfriend talk or is it just a throw away line and I’m reading too much in to it?

    phoebe-phire @phoebe-phire

    <span style=”color: #000000;”>@Timeloop thanks my knowledge gaps seem to be:</span>

    <span style=”color: #000000;”>Dream Lord – who is this?</span>

    Some have said the ‘River Song’ story finished, what happened to her in the end? In Silence in the library she said of 10 I’ve never seen you this young, then we got 11 so she couldn’t have meant him – which ‘older’ Doctor could have taken her to the Singing Towers?

    How did Vaspra, Jenny and the Sontaron end up together and what’s their connection with the Doctor?

    Clara negotiating with the Time Lords through the crack? – is that the crack from the 11th hour.

    The Doctor says he is 2000 years old last time I knew he was about 900?

    The whole Trensalor thing lost me?

    Any enlightenment would be great.

    I’m looking forward to our new Doctor, already looking great.

    phoebe-phire @phoebe-phire

    @Evs I don’t think any Doctor Who line is ‘throw away’  they are great at going back making links and developing ideas from it, so you could be right.


    @phoebe-phire I think you need to treet yourself to the DVD sets (all of your questions are addressed on them) and, if you have access (sorry, not sure where you are) the  BBC site and browse the minisodes.

    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    The Guardian blog’s comment section seems to have spontaneously combusted….


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Welcome @Evs – I like that spot! Great spot!


    Okay, so, backtracking a moment just to lend some context to my earlier remarks… So the hand in DOTD probably is actually supposed to be Clara’s (it has the same rings). It is a very weird looking shot though. I can see why it formed a conspiracy theory…


    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    I am new to this and have not yet had time to read all of your remarks on Deep Breath but nevertheless, here are my thoughs so far:

    I have watched 9, 10 and 11 in a very short amount of time, so I don’t explicitly have MY Doctor, I simply have THE Doctor. As for Capaldi I think he fits in wonderfully. He is fast and gritty and humorously dark. I love that he struggles with his regeneration more than 10 or 11, maybe also due to the fact that the Doctor was supposed to end, but got a brand new regeneration cycle. I am on his side already! Also I love that he is questioning himself and being more aware of his own change. Asking himself where his faces come from, why this face, and what kind of message he’s trying to send to himself.

    What else:

    Rewatching 11 & Claras time I was hoping on finding out who the woman in the shop was, so I’m glad that got picked up again and adding to it with the newspaper add. Was it Missy? I doubt that. Could it be a future Clara? Maybe. Looking forward to finding out.

    My bf immediately recognised Two Stream in Heaven, so we’ve been speculating if that was just a good location, but I guess Moffatt is thinking further than all of us, so I doubt that as well. No clue who Missy could be, but love the theories on here! But I’m still hoping she is a brand new character.

    Also looking forward to deepening the Mdm. De Pompadour story, watching The Girl in the Fireplace I was a bit disappointed as to not knowing why and who.

    As to the Pater Noster Gang: I love them! They’re fun, they’re pretty much as different as they can be and I look forward to seeing them again. Although not too soon, it would be a pity if they’d become a side clown to the show by popping up every other day. And I have to say, I’m very disappointed to see those “won’t you think about the children” comments because of the kiss between Vastra and Jenny. I can’t believe we’re still so last century that displaying a lesbian relationship is still considered to be a danger to our children. I mean, come on!!!


    All in all I loved the opening episode, focusing on the relationships more than a deadly danger, which I thought was ok. Here and there were a few pointless laughs, the Times-throwing, the sound when Vastra put the Doctor to sleep. But they might have been for the young fans, so it shall be forgiven. That’s it for now, more thoughs rumbling around in my head, but those that later.. s

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @okies – yes, he did say he’d invented a boyfriend before

    and it’s really hard to get rid of an android.

    Good spot. So, probably not a throw away line, then. 😉

    At the time, didn’t we all think it was a jokey reference to Scream of the Shalka?

    giulia42 @giulia42

    First of all, thank you for your welcome, and thank you for creating this corner of the Internet where we can discuss the show and still respect other people and opinions.

    Reading your theories, I changed my mind about Missy’s identity. I think she’s some kind of interface, perhaps of the TARDIS  or of CAL from Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, anyway something the Doctor knew about, so it doesn’t really matter whether he pushed Half-Faced Man or not, as he knew Missy would be there waiting for the robot to take care of him.
    After all, the Doctor has just recently forgiven himself for what he had (not) done during the Time War, so I believe he chose to begin a new regeneration cycle by *saving* someone (as CAL did in SITL), which is what his face reminded him of.

    Which still leaves me wondering who the woman in the shop might be, as Missy is completely virtual to me.

    As for the theme tune: after singing along to it a couple of times, it does sound and feel more natural 😀


    Craig @craig

    After a busy weekend I’m a bit late to the party. I’m going to be away next weekend as well – terrible timing. Have tried to read all the comments and love all the theories so far. Great to see so many old avatars back on the Forum as well. 🙂

    I was one of those who got the script for this early, and watched the version without the effects, and my thoughts then were much as they are now. I think Moffat saw that he had a job to do – to sell this new, older-looking Doctor to the fans.

    The new fans (both young and international) have never seen an older Doctor and it probably seemed an onerous task, so he did lay it on a bit thick for an adult audience but it was probably perfect for a younger one. It’s hard to please everyone when you have to write a family show. So yes, Matt turning up to say “He’s still me” may have been pushing it, but looked at through a child’s eyes, it must have been magical and reassuring. Just as it was for Clara. Glad to hear that’s exactly how it went down in the @thommck household.

    I can easily imagine this was built around scenes first. The bedroom scene with “How do we change him back?” Vastra questioning Clara, using the veil as a metaphor and emphasising that the Doctor is hundreds of years old. The alley scene with “Who frowned me this face?”. And then the final scene with Matt, and the Doctor exclaiming “You can’t see me, can you?”

    All the rest was probably added later as an after thought. But it doesn’t matter much – the key scenes did their job. And did them well.

    I have to admit it did take a while to get the ghost of Malcolm Tucker out of my brain – he does, after all, look and sound like him. But I am now sold. Capaldi is going to be great.

    I loved the darker elements – leaving Clara behind, “I think I may have to kill you” (what new Doctor could have got away with that?) and the finale where the fourth wall is broken and he stares at the audience – daring us to question him (which is why I chose it for the Home page).

    And there was also the soft side. The ‘desperate to be wanted’ side. That final scene in Glasgow almost became a scene from a Richard Curtis movie. I almost expected one of them to say “Is it raining? I hadn’t noticed.” But it worked. We have a Doctor with a hard exterior, who can pretend he has ice in his hearts, but is just like all the rest of us deep down.

    As for the story, well, it was a story of regeneration hence my lack of any other detail on the Home page. And if Missy hadn’t placed the ad in the newspaper (if that’s who did) then there wouldn’t have been a story at all.

    But it was a fun romp and it did allow more questions about who you really are if you change every part of you. Nice to see a nod to Trigger’s broom, and the double reflection when the mirror tray was held up to the clockwork droid showed the Doctor was talking to himself as much as the droid.

    So Missy may be this season’s big bad, and I love all your thoughts so far. I have to say I first thought of the Rani, but I also like the idea of a female Master. Keeping his accent – I thought she was just mirroring the Doctor, but maybe there is more to it.

    I also think we’ve not seen the last of the rubbish robots from the dawn of time. I got the feeling, just from the new Doctor not being able to remember the events of Girl in the Fireplace, that there may be more to come, with more repercussions from this episode, or from the earlier one.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @Cath Annabel Looking back through here just noticed that you had already noted the similarities with the Nimon scene when the Doctor is translating for the Dinosaur (or is he)? Apologies for not spotting that before. And I too am intrigued by the similarities between Missy’s paradise and the garden from The Girl Who Waited. And, as you say, there were droids there too. Droids with hands!

    So maybe Missy is somehow associated with Red Waterfall and a compressed time stream? Or perhaps there’s a link from Apalapucia (sp?) to the clockwork droid space ships. Both seem to have something to do with parallel time streams and very timey-wimey plots. Goes to The Girl in the Fireplace too. Is there maybe a link between all of these?

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Or should that have read @Cath_Annabel ? Sorry don’t quite know how to write your user name.

    Whisht @whisht

    @bluesqueakpip – ok, now there’s a police helicopter above my house.
    I think I was shouting and waving my arms about a bit too much.
    < / exhales and ends this silliness! > 🙂

    Now…. you mentioned that Missy could be the Matrix.
    Well it seems reasonable that most AIs tend to get a bit sentient(!) and I’m gonna presume that the Matrix needs to be connected with the Timelords.

    Now, if its got separated from them by being outside the Timelock and now is on the wrong side of the crack (ie in our universe) then its going to need the Doctor to bring them back.
    In fact it’ll do whatever it needs to do to get back with the TLs/ Gallifrey (ie manipulating events around Clara and the Doctor such as adverts, phone numbers etc perhaps even conniving the meeting between the harvesting robots and the Doctor).

    Now, if it hasn’t been connected to the TLs for a while, it could also be going a bit loopy – and even affected by ol’ Sexy if this is the only eyes and ears that Missy can use to keep track of the Doctor.

    hm…. the tin-foil hat I’m wearing is beginning to spark.

    [as an aside, we do all wear tin-foil hats don’t we? I mean, I’d feel silly if it were only me…]

    Evs @okies

    Ok so after watching it again I am getting on board with the matrix theory too.  When the droid says to the doctor that he is looking for paradise, the doctor says he is too but that he will never find it, so I’m going with a Gallifrey link. I’m always wrong about these things though.

    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    what I would like to ad:

    For me the phone call from 11 was not necessairy, althoug a nice surprise, especially the flashback to the hanging phone outside the TARDIS. But for me what really got my breath going was 12th “You don’t see me. You look at me and don’t see me. Please, just see me.”

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    With apologies for — as @whisht brilliantly puts it — ‘bonking out load’, I’d like to develop the theory that Missy is the Moment.

    I think The Moment is a kind of ‘TARDIS of mass destruction’. We know it was of Gallifreyan origin (‘the final act of the ancients of Gallifrey’), and, like the TARDIS, it is a kind of object that has gained its own form of sentience and its own moral compass. So, Missy is a kind of ‘Bad Idris’. It perhaps explains why one of the first things Missy wants to find out from the android is whether this Doctor is capable of killing: an important thing for a sentient weapon to know.

    Another point from The Day of the Doctor is that The Moment knows all the Doctors. ‘I hear you. All of you, jangling around in that dusty old head of yours,’ she says to the War Doctor. And this includes future Doctors, because The Moment already then knew enough about 10 and 11 to use them to show the War Doctor an alternative way of ending the Time War. This goes to Missy’s puzzling line that she likes the accent of Capaldi’s Doctor; she has already heard it, jangling around in the War Doctor’s head.

    Finally, one might object — @timeloop — that the Moment was on the Doctor’s side in The Day of the Doctor. We don’t know that for sure. She might have been trying to save him from the consequences of his own actions. Or she might just have been trying to save Gallifrey (she is, after all, Gallifreyan herself). She might be a weapon so destructive that she doesn’t want anyone to use her. But, more sinisterly, maybe she just didn’t want to be used then, and she has her own ideas about where and when she wants to be used, and what she wants to destroy. Her plot is to use Clara to keep the Doctor to safe and to manipulate him to be at just the right time and place where the Moment wants him to use to bring her master plan to fruition.


    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @fivefaces – no problem, we’re all independently coming to (some) of the same conclusions around here, and it’s impossible to keep up with who was first to spot what!  I’m @cathannabel here I think (so many identities – hard to keep track!).

    Over on Reddit they’ve identified the specific location that was used in The Girl Who Waited and other episodes,  including  The Girl in the Fireplace and Forest of the Dead, both of which have featured in our discussions of Deep Breath.

    All of which may simply tell us that it’s a good location and within budget, etc.  BUT – we don’t have any truck with that kind of simplistic thinking round here, do we.  In any case, even if that was the reason for choosing it, it would have presumably been very easy to make it look sufficiently different that we wouldn’t have realised.  They didn’t do that, and I think that suggests that there’s some significance in it. However, having looked for images from TGITF and FOTD there seems to be only limited use of the place, whereas the shots of the garden in DB match those in TGWW very closely.   And if you look at the website, that seems to be the Pompeian garden which one could get over-excited about if one was so inclined.

    Going for a bit of a lie down now.


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Perhaps the Doctor and the Master should just get a room. A lot of fan art out there would have it that they do do all that ‘grown up stuff’ together! I can’t show you most of it though…



    @bluesqueakpip Yes! Was this the invented android boyfriend?

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Oh, and another thing: if The Moment knew how the Doctor could save Gallifrey, why didn’t she just tell him: ‘Look, just go back in time and instruct all your past and future selves to run for centuries the software routine that will put Gallifrey safely into a pocket universe’? Why does she go through this rather twisted process of putting him together with his future selves into a sort of parallel situation in a cell in the Tower of London, and leave him to figure it out? He almost doesn’t, and Gallifrey comes within an inch of burning. Maybe he needed to work it our for himself for some deep moral (read dramatic) reason. But doesn’t this sound like what an egomaniacal, needy game-player would do?

    giulia42 @giulia42

    Another link to Silence in the Library: around 2:27 Ten says to Donna

    “But you need the smell. The smell of books, Donna. Deep breath.”

    I don’t know what you make of this, but mentally, I associate Missy’s way of saving HFM just like CAL did.
    Yet of course I’m just a human, always seeing patterns in things that aren’t there 🙂

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @cathannabel Oh my, what links those location ‘coincidences’ suggest! I could certainly see vague lines of something that weaves a connection between the virtual reality of Forest of the Dead, the parallel time stream stories of Girl in the Fireplace and Girl Who Waited, and the closing scene from Deep Breath. Now this is what I call a long game!

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Similarities to Frankenstein must be destroyed…

    Okay, still trying to work out my ‘Missy is the Valeyard born of the Doctor’s fob watch’ theory…
    (They say you always need a Plan B)
    People are speculating that the watch the tramp got is significant. On viewing, I didn’t believe the Doctor when he said he did a swap. I reckoned he was lying and that he just beat the tramp up… But perhaps that’s not the case…

    FiveFaces @fivefaces


    That final scene in Glasgow almost became a scene from a Richard Curtis movie.

    I so agree. When I heard the Doctor say, ‘I’m standing in front of you’, my mind immediately went to Notting Hill: ‘I’m just a girl, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her.’ Glad they didn’t go there, by the way, and personally I liked the way it wrapped up rather prosaically with ‘I don’t think that I’m a hugging person now’. I found the new Doctor’s wish to be seen rather moving. I thought this was a much deeper way of thinking about the issues surrounding a regeneration than almost any story I can recall. Maybe some of the scenes when Peter Davison was finding his way around the TARDIS in Castrovalva, but then I’m horribly biased on that front.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @wolfweed – or the tramp was so terrified of this lunatic by that point, he just gave him the coat.

    I admit I did wonder how he had the watch, given that he was wearing that nightgown and the Doctor’s traditional long johns. Surely the watch would have stayed in the waistcoat pocket? But I think I really read it as a ‘no, the fob watch isn’t important’ message. There was an awful lot of speculation about it.

    Some of which I was responsible for. 😉

    TARDIS.Pilot @tardis-pilot

    I could not agree with smeglennon more (in fact it prompted me to join and reply after reading his comment, how did i find it across the interwebs? i googled “Doctor Who Crap” (with the limited week time restriction of course))




    A weak story, a stupid dino (why wasn’t London up in arms about a giant meat eating reptile on the loose rampaging the neighborhood again?)

    Plus the fact they are going for gimmicky “steampunk” look (intro, gadgets, TARDIS etc)

    Don’t get me wrong, I like steampunk, when its done right,


    I’m guessing moffat is going to be leaving soon…. for he is the master of suck (the whole show has suffered since he took over)


    BTW: although Capaldi is toted as being the 12th doctor, he is really the 13th (after the war doctor)

    And i remember the doctor saying that he could only regen 13 times,

    (I think they used up a regen on the war doctor to rush in the 14th regen, which I’m guessing is going to be a woman,)

    Craig @craig

    @tardis-pilot Ah, well I’m glad we show up high in the search engines for something 😉

    However the rest of your comment can’t be taken seriously as you’ve obviously not been paying attention. The Doctor has a whole new set of regenerations.

    When next you attempt to troll, please try harder. It helps if you know what you’re talking about.

    TARDIS.Pilot @tardis-pilot

    Not trolling, legitimate comments,

    I don’t mind you taking what i said in jest, (as “many a true word said in jest”)

    But don’t try to label me a troll because you disagree, (you didn’t even give me the benefit of the doubt did you?, what does your assumption say about you, you have an issue with what i say you make your case and reason it out, instead of throwing around insulting labels..)


    And it is you that has not been paying attention, don’t you remember the doctor saying only 13 regenerations? (think it was Baker who said it)

    And Capaldi is the 13th, you do the math,

    And yes Moffat has done nothing but hurt the show since he started the ratings have dramatically fallen, coincidence?

    I could start a painful list o’crap that old moffat has heaped upon the series but unless you are as blind as you are bald I’m sure you know,


    So laugh, but don’t label me again, without the knowledge that next time i will be casting labels in your direction that will be valid……Capish

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