Fugitive of the Judoon

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@davros

Good point about the amnesia inducing effect of the chameleon arch. On the other hand there is clearly a lot more going on with Lee than there was with Martha as a companion to Tennant Doctor, and a good many indications that he is more than just Martin Doctor’s human companion.

1) He has a service medal made of chronotelluric alloy which the sonic  registers as not of earth origin, and this service medal is evidently of sufficient sentimental value for him to have risked taking it with him even though it is trackable – which isn’t to say that he hasn’t been keeping it for the Doctor, although the indications were that it was his own.

2) He and Gat have a shared (military?) past. She greets him as ironically as ‘old friend’  and refers to their ‘identical training’, which suggests that he is from Gallifrey even if the sonic does register him as completely human, and he evidently feigned his own death in order to escape from that shared past and accompany Martin Doctor in her escape.

Could it be that there are means other than a chameleon arch to convincingly mask a Gallifreyan as human without the amnesiac effect? Or is he a human who was recruited by the Time Lords and served in their military force?

 

 

 

 

[Davros @davros]

@mudlark

“Could it be that there are means other than a chameleon arch to convincingly mask a Gallifreyan as human without the amnesiac effect?”

For all I know, sure.
For that matter I suppose it is possible he is neither a human nor a Gallifreyan but some third humanoid species.
But given all your points I suppose it is implied that he is Gallifreyan.

[Whisht @whisht]

@blenkinsopthebrave – he he ;¬)

Glinda – Good witch who appears at convenient times to nudge Dorothy along; RuthDoctor methinks!

[Brewski @brewski]

<span style=”color: #333333;”><span style=”font-family: Arimo, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;”><span style=”font-size: small;”>So I suppose the answer is that it’s a perfectly allowable retcon to say that a </span></span></span><span style=”color: #333333;”><span style=”font-family: Arimo, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;”><span style=”font-size: small;”>fully working</span></span></span><span style=”color: #333333;”><span style=”font-family: Arimo, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;”><span style=”font-size: small;”> TARDIS has transmat facilities, but the current Doctor’s TARDIS transmat is not working.</span></span></span>
<p align=”left”><span style=”color: #333333;”><span style=”font-family: Arimo, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;”><span style=”font-size: small;”>That said, I am getting the feel that the Martin Doctor is either between Troughton and Pertwee or pre Hartnell. Either way, the Martin Doctor has a fully working TARDIS. Possibly because it was repaired, then un-repaired when they exiled the Pertwee Doctor</span></span></span></p>

Whoo!  That’s a lot of jockeying to get there, @bluesqueakpip!  :p  It would mean there is a transmat access to the TARDIS that no Doctor has bothered to repair since then.

Also not “fully working” because it means they would have repaired the transmat but NOT the chameleon circuit.  And then broken the transmat again.

I think its presence is  much more easily explained as part of a parallel Who-niverse.

 

 

[Brewski @brewski]

@mudlark I like that hypothesis!  I’m gonna have to noodle on it a bit more.  As far as what we find out is really happening being more mundane?  Well… that IS the sub-title of the discussion board, isn’t it? 🙂

btw…tying in with that Christmas episode is something that popped into my head as I was watching.  The remark(s) about the sonic screwdriver were very similar to the ones Brad-Doc made in “Twice Upon a Time”.

 

[Whisht @whisht]

@blenkinsopthebrave – methinks #2

Glinda – Good witch who appears at convenient times (early on and at the end) to nudge Dorothy along.
With Dorothy being The Doctor, and Captain Jack appearing with a nudge and then promising to be there at the end… but surely they wouldn’t do that gag.
Glinda is kind’ve the Fairy Godmother….

yeah, actually – Glinda is Captain Jack

;¬)

[GalaxyMage @galaxymage]

So, in previous discussions, people have been theorizing about a connection to DNA/genetics this season. This theory might be a bit of a stretch — this is sci-fi, and genetics stuff is a very common sci-fi concept to use — but it is very fun to theorize about.

So far, we have:

Spyfall — It isn’t a stretch at all for this one. Creatures rewrite your DNA, The Master’s comments that he’s doing what he was made to do, and the hologram stating that the Time Lord “species” was “built” on lies.

Orphan 55 — The Dregs are mutated humans.

NTNoT — There’s not exactly much reference to genetics here. It’s very tiny and probably means nothing, but on its discussion page some people have said that this one still fits in with the theory because Tesla was a supporter of eugenics. (Though that’s not mentioned in the episode.)

FotJ — Constant genetic scanning is done by the Judoon and The Doctor. Both Doctors are genetically identical (which, I just wanted to mention, makes no sense whatsoever — different regenerations think differently, act differently, and look differently; if your genetic code says you have blue eyes then you do, you can’t keep the same code and have green ones, and it’s not just a matter of appearances as different iterations of The Doctor really do think differently). Then there’s Jack, who was attacked by nanogenes — the nanogenes on the ship he stole (just like this one!) in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances were rewriting genetic code.

So…completely bonkers theory, but I think that there might actually be a theme of genetics this season.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whisht

Captain Jack as Glinda…What can I say? You have outdone yourself!

 

[BadWolfAlice @badwolfalice]

Here’s a theory that popped into my head as I woke up earlier. I’m sure it’s completely wrong but I like it.

What if Ruth is one of the Doctor’s children? Maybe something separated the two of them from each other when Ruth was young (probably on a previous regeneration) and she believed the Doctor had died. From then on, she took on the mantle of ‘The Doctor’. As her life went on, she began to think only of herself as The Doctor and forgot about her parent. I admit it seems unlikely that she would completely forget that her parent was also called the Doctor, which sort of ruins this idea. However, that brings me onto my next bonkers theory:

Ruth is the Doctor’s mother! She also went by the name of The Doctor, and she died when her child was young (or maybe during childbirth, if that’s how Time Lord reproduction works). Her husband, or whatever kind of partner she had, gave the baby the title The Doctor as well, in honour of their mother. When we see Ruth in Fugitive of the Judoon, she hasn’t yet given birth, so when she meets our Doctor she doesn’t know who it could be.

Of course, this fails to explain why the sonic screwdriver recognised her as the same person as the Doctor we know, unless the sonic can’t differentiate between different members of the same family (I’m sure it can). And it also doesn’t explain why Ruth’s TARDIS looks like a police box. These holes in the theory could probably be filled in with some complicated timey-wimey thinking but, as I said, I’m 99% sure it’s not correct. I would love to meet some more of the Doctor’s family though!

[nerys @nerys]

@bluesqueakpip Missy’s comment that she’d known the Doctor since she was a little girl

I keep going back to that and wondering if there’s some sort of tie-in here with Ruth. But it may be a case of fans remembering too much, too literally.

[Whisht @whisht]

@blenkinsopthebrave

I can only think of one other main character from the Wizard of Oz film and I’m now beginning to hope this theory will happen!

Toto – Dorothy’s pet.
Based on what the Master said about pets before… Clara is coming back!!
Clara and Whittaker Doctor… I reckon that chemistry could work!

{sigh}

“Fangasm” is probably what I’m now being guilty of.

:¬o

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whisht

Nah, I cannot see Clara coming back. Or even K9. In fact, if there is anything in this Oz theory, having a Toto analogy would be too obvious. But, by golly, it has everything else. Not only does the Doctor travel over the rainbow, she takes the rainbow with her…on her t-shirt.

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@nerys

Or it could be that Chibnall decided to riff off what Moffat originally saw as a joke.

[Davros @davros]

Restored Ruth didn’t seem very cut up about her companion’s death… didn’t even mention it.

[lisa @lisa]

Watched this with the kid again last night and does anyone know where the Kasaavins come from?

If they are they from N space then does that mean they are coming from the ‘negative’ side of

the same universe?  Doesn’t that mean we are all on the ‘positive’ side of the same universe?

Didn’t  the Cybermen also use N space a lot and is it possible  that’s  where the Ruth Doctor,

the Master and the Kasaavins  all are ‘leaking’  thru?    The Master said he was going by the

code name ‘O’  too.   Wasn’t Omega the guy that made his home inside a version of N space land ?

So maybe in the N space land Omega and the Master are the same character?

No idea but I cant wait to find out !  Even Gat said this all didn’t seem right to her and

was very alarmed  when she realized something has  triggered some sort of temporal paradox.

Time has become messed up in the Whoverse?

 

 

[Robsie @robsiehallert]

Holy Rhino, I LOVE LOVE LOVED this episode!
I loved Ruth’s outfit, I loved the Judoon stuff and I loved the Cameo.
There was a lot to unpack.
I didn’t really care about the inserting Ruth into the past thing so much then (but it sure came back to bite me later, yeesh!)  But this was a BRILLIANT episode. I loved Yaz cop-talking with the Judoon. I liked the petty creep with the cake. I liked… I mean, I could just gush for hours.
Anymore, I find a callback or two to earlier shows makes for a delightful episode. The Ice Warrior in Cold War, for instance, or the Macra in Gridlock.
It’s a shame all the Time Lords got killed. Again. Because this episode promised us so much more.
(I have to admit, I’ve always secretly wanted to see The Rani pop up again in an updated guise and I really, really, really want to see Susan Foreman regenerate… but that’ll probably never happen onscreen.)

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Fugitive of the Judoon

Hey, not bad. I actually quite liked this ep! (And unlike Tesla’s Night of Terror, it doesn’t pretend to be remotely historical with all concerned smugly congratulating themselves with doing justice to Tesla’s largely mythical achievements, so it doesn’t offend my sense of accuracy).

Ruth’s identity was a genuinely intriguing mystery, and the buried Tardis caught me completely by surprise. (Okay, I knew that Ruth was the Doctor at some point from spoiler leakage, but I found I could nudge that to the back of my mind watching the ep). So Ruthdoc was using the same device as Tennatdoc used in Human Nature.

The repartee between Ruthdoc and Jodiedoc one-upping each other was adequately amusing (though I have to say I think the Moff would have done it even better, cf Day of the Doctor. In fact the situation was begging for what I call, for lack of a better phrase, ‘loaded lines’. Since Jodiedoc knew what a Tardis was and Ruthdoc didn’t know she knew, there was a massive potential for unintentional irony on Ruth’s part, or deliberate double entendres by the Doctor).
The bit where they both said exactly the same thing at the same moment because ‘same mind’ was nonsense, we already know that different iterations of the Doctor have quite distinct personalities.

Of course this raises the big question of where Ruth fits in the Doctor chronology. And if Ruth was pre-Hartnell (as has been suggested), then why does her Tardis look like a police box? Because it was a plain undisguised cylinder when the Doctor stole it. So she must be a future Doctor, I guess…

I’m not sure what Captain Jack was doing in this ep, maybe it will be revealed in the future. Or pure fanwank?
The Judoon always remind me of Vogons. And Gat, a bit of Servalan. I liked Gat as a character, wouldn’t mind if she rematerialises some time.
Also, Cybermen are not a species, they’re a technological development. Though I’m probably being too pedantic there, ‘species’ will do as a working description.
All those Judoon tramping around Gloucester, knocking off the occasional human – and in sight of everybody with a cellphone – isn’t somebody going to notice? (I’m sure this question has been asked about many previous episodes). Douglas Adams had a solution, the ‘Somebody Else’s Problem’ Field. Maybe it still operates.

I notice the technobabble continues unabated, and the Doctor instantly knows it all (“That’s a Voltarian Level Seven containment field, if I energise this Moldavian Quaternary Impulse Generator with a multi-frequency Doppler ray from my sonic screwdriver in reverse phase to the polar wavelength it should weaken it for long enough for us to get through”)

And I liked Ruthdoc way better than blabbermouth Doctor, who just won’t shut up and nearly got herself and Ruthdoc killed. I saw the sabotaged blaster-gun coming from way off, but it was still quite satisfying when Gat blew herself up.   Ruthdoc looks like she means business.

It is definitely one I’ll watch again.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Started to watch Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror, got about ten minutes in and got totally impatient with the contra-historicness of it.

So I skipped on to Fugitive of the Judoon. Now that is a much more promising episode. Can’t help feeling that Ruth’s job as a tour guide in Gloucester is probably hard work (could have been much worse, could have been Luton). But Ruth is an appealing character.

The Judoon I find utterly obnoxious (but I suppose that’s intentional). The Doctor alternately intimidating then cajoling the Judoon commander just didn’t work for me, why would it work on a space rhino? – she should choose one approach and stick to it.

Captain Jack – where did he come from? Mistaking Graham for the Doctor is quite a good joke though. Though the episode does show signs of Chibs’ throw-everything-at-it approach to plotting, it is still reasonably coherent. Though, since Jack then teleports out and his whole walk-on appearance was apparently just an occasion for fan-service and to leave a cryptic message for the Doctor, I’m a tad cynical about that.

The lighthouse is a very photogenic set. Location scouts did a good job there.

I have to say, I really like Doctor Ruth. I did quite enjoy the way Ruth ‘introduced’ Whitdoc to her Tardis, a reversal of roles is always entertaining. Forceful and determined, though Whitdoc does her best to undermine and undercut her in Whitdoc’s usual annoying way. If you’re having a showdown with your old enemy, last thing you need is interference from ‘we never use guns’ Whitdoc.

All the stuff about Ruth and Whitdoc being in each others past (or not) is all gobbledegook to me. Was it ever resolved?

So, a 95% good episode. Probably the best of the season. Not least because the threat is finite, specific and localised, not some apocalyptic doom which threatens the whole Universe.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. I looked back to see what I said previously about this episode and found that I did not. That is not a reflection of my view of the episode. I often fail to comment partly because I get overwhelmed by the discussion and feel I have nothing to add. I have only watched this episode once so going from memory, Really liked Ruth/doc. She had the authority that J.W. lacked. So like so many Chib era stories, there were good parts, there was potential but overall it just did not hold together. I think you hit the mark with “Throw everything at it”, and so the narrative ends up being incoherent. Plot lines are set up but never satisfyingly resolved. It felt like bits of a good episode mixed into narrative spaghetti.

Cheers

Janette

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