Hell Bent

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  • #48684
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    hell-bent

    It’s the series finalé and the Doctor is back on Gallifrey following his escape from the confession dial in ‘Heaven Sent’. And he’s angry.

    The Doctor faces the Time Lords in a struggle that will take him to the end of time itself. Who is the Hybrid? And what is the Doctor’s confession?

    This is a real treat. Capaldi is, of course, brilliant, once again given a chance to really shine. Moffat’s story-telling is also brilliant, and Rachel Talalay also does a brilliant job of bringing it all, especially Gallifrey, to life. Did I mention that it’s brilliant?

    Moffat has packed this episode full of ideas and it’s a real treat for both BG and AG fans. It concludes the last few years, and sets everything up for many more adventures to come.

    #48715

    Couple of things:

    1. That was more kinds of astounding than I can count;

    2. @bluesqueakpip – you really need a rethink (don’t click the following link)

    3. CAAAAALLLLLLLEEEEEEDDDD IIIIIITTTTTT!!!!!

    #48716
    iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor

    epic, epic, epic

    that was the best episode of doctor who i have ever seen, steven moffat take a bow, wow, im gobsmacked, i cannot believe what i just witnessed

    #48717
    iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor

    serious guys,

    how good was that, clara and me end up with a tardis taking the long way round, so pleased that clara isnt dead….yet, but wow,

    the best overall series of new who, peter capaldi is amazing!!!!  being from glasgow i loved the glasgow mention!!

    #48718
    iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor

    what does everyone think of that?

    was that not doctor whos finest moment???  it really had everything, his home planet, the timelords, cybermen, dalek, weeping angels, roundels!!  new sonic screwdriver, very clever from moffat as he knew folk would hate the glasses before he made it and gave the doctor an epic new one, loved the tardis the doctor stole, i just loved everything about the episode, i thought after david tennant that it couldnt get better, im so wrong, capaldi brings so much emotion with simple wee looks and by what he doesnt say, amazing

    #48719

    Oh, and I totally want a Clara/Ashildr spin-off series. You know you want to, Moff.

    #48720
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @iusedtobethedoctorrs99- Glasgow in space!

     

    I was hoping against hope they weren’t going to go down the half human doctor route. It always annoyed me. I mean, why would you cast Paul McGunn and then try to Spokify the character? But I loved the treatment of the ‘Me’ theory. ‘It’s an interesting theory’

    This was a good send off for Clara. Not quite a cheat- death can’t be cheated. But- as I think Bluesqueakpip would be glad to know given her reservations about ‘Face the Raven’- instead of being ‘punished’ for trying to be the doctor, she gets to run around the universe in an American diner having adventures. And Me became a companion after all. (Is it me or did the last billions after billions of years mellow her?)

    #48721

    Oh, and the simple line “They’ll kill you” added more the Gallifreyan back story in four words than almost anything else ever written int he show.

    #48722
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @pedant- who owns the rights to the diner in space? Watching it almost felt like seeing Moffart saying to the BBC: go on, Cancel doctor who. I dare you…

    at the very least I can imagine a one off or probably two parter episode where they encounter each other

    #48723
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Well, Moff really doesn’t like the Grim Reaper, does he?

    I actually loved that Ashildr finally got to travel in a TARDIS with her own functionally immortal companion (as long as they take the long way round). And wow what a punishment that is, courtesy of the Doctor. Because Clara is always heading for the quantum shade on Trap Street, but, as Ashildr spends that stolen time in between with Clara, it is going to get harder and harder for Lady Me to lose her. The Doctor gifted Ashildr a taste of her own medicine and everything she ever wanted (time travel) all at once. He knew perfectly well, of course, that he would be the one to forget, when he and Clara had their stand-off…

    To be honest, in one sense, I would have preferred the sadder ending – actually seeing Clara step back into Trap street and face the raven again. But, as we know it’s always coming, and there are a tonne of Ashildr and Clara fan fiction adventures to write in between… good call.

    The Doctor described himself as the Fool, so the tarot cards have indeed come full circle.

    Gallifrey is still in its bubble, far out in the time stream. But no doubt capable of returning for the odd story any time the fancy takes.

    Rassilon finally got his comeuppance for the dastardly writing business in The End of Time.

    The Doctor may, or may not, be half human by birth (strong indication he might be) but he was a hybrid by virtue of Clara having jumped into his time-stream and the two of them having got so tangled up together that he nearly burned the universe to get her back.

    All in all, a most satisfying finale to a lovely series.

    Did I mention I love Maisie Williams?

    #48724
    Hillforest @hillforest

    I was watching for the epic, logical plot trap while all along my partner understood the emotional reality of it all…

    he’s time lord and can’t face the endings…she’s a human and has faced them all her life, one of them had to let go,

    stunning

    #48725

    @juniperfish

    Maisie Williams

    She utterly blossomed in this, freed of the Ashildr/ Me/ Night Mayor corsets.

    More of her please.

    #48726
    Spider @spider

    Wow!

    That. Was. Amazing.

    Seeing the old console room made me squee out loud. The doors even made the noise!

    I was convinced at the start the Doctor was talking to a Clara echo that he had sought out and that it was her who didn’t recognise him. That was VERY cleverly done.

    And the barn! And the Doctor on the bed. And Gallifrey and … y’now I’ll stop there or I’m just going to list every single thing that happened.

    But! The Doctor forgetting Clara nooooooooooo! Sooo evil Moffat! Waaaaah!

    Although, wouldn’t the best thing to have stopped the whole ‘hybrid’ be for Clara to insist she go back to the alley and die when she was supposed to? Rather than one of them to have to forget the other? Hmmm. But if that had happened we wouldn’t have the adventures of Clara and Ashildr rampaging about all of space and time!

    At least it’s not so bad as with Donna, the Doctor still does remember he had a companion, and he does remember their adventures together. He just can’t ‘see’ her. And oh the irony now of that conversation at the end of deep breath when Twelve asks Clara to just ‘see’ him. Ohh … that means she back to what she always was in the Doctor’s time stream, the girl who saves him but he never sees her ! Only just got that now *facepalm*.

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #48727
    Rob @rob

    Ok got it so so so wrong…..

    There is always the next series, laws of averages,  may help.

    Perhaps we’re all hybrids bar those who believe in their own purity? And they’re hybrids too just refuse to acknowledge it.

    #48728

    Als0, did I mishear, or has the Tardis that Me and Clara nicked got a broken chameleon circuit and is now stuck as a diner?

    #48729
    tommo @tommo

    so much awesome. a couple of things whilst it’s fresh in my mind.

    loved the ‘bad wolf/rose’ theme echoed at one point.

    the doctor finally goes full ‘time-lord victorious’

    so much more but i need processing time….

    well done on another superb series team.

    #48730
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant

    No – I heard that too – Clara’s TARDIS is definitely stuck as a diner.

    And I’m still wondering if she might have been his blood family, which would fit with the circular theme presaged by all the snakes – not only does the Doctor return to Gallifrey only to steal a TARDIS and run away again, but last time it was with Susan his granddaughter, this time with Clara his ???

    I say this because it was interesting Clara chose that diner for the reunion – a place connected to the Ponds, whom the Doctor then mentions.

    Definitely one for a re-watch.

     

     

    #48731
    tommo @tommo

    @pedant – yes, i caught that one too. great nod.

    #48733
    Spider @spider

    I was just commenting to a friend about how I had watched much of series 9 through the slight tinted vision of knowing Jenna was leaving and therefore there was going to be a sad ending along the way. In a way this is mirroring the Doctors viewpoint – as we hear him say a few times about losing her, and also the look he gives her at the end of The Woman Who Lived’. Made me think all the time how sad the Doctor was going to be when it finally happened.

    Now, after the finale, when I go back to rewatch series 9 I will be watching it (and indeed series 8 … oh and half of series 7) in a completely different light – knowing that it is the Doctor who will forget the details of his companion!

    @tommo Oh … now there was some music I couldn’t quite place at one point and it’s been bugging me what it was – perhaps that was bad wolf/rose. Need a rewatch!

    Oh and how good was it there was hardly any dialogue for most of the start on Gallifrey.  Could any other Doctor have pulled that off quite as well?

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #48734
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    I have a few things to say about that:
    1) It was perfect
    2) That episode was perfect
    3)I loved how they explained the changing back to a Screwdriver, Clara and Ashildr taking the Glasses
    4) Did I mention it was perfect?

    #48737
    tommo @tommo

    @spider – i suspect not. capaldi has the eyes for sure. i suppose they’ve all had their angry streak but that grief-stricken, subdued, simmering rage was played perfectly by him. it’s a good question though for sure.

    i also loved that Clara’s ending was re-closed so to speak;

    this time it was the doctor who was the victim of the companion. that reversal was a deft touch. as mentioned earlier in this thread, she has been part of his timeline, embedded within it since ‘name of…’.

    the doctor couldn’t take the human side just like a human (donna/rose) couldn’t take the time-lord side of the mind and therefore had to ultimately forget. brilliant.

    re. the music. it was simplified somewhat and played on organ i think. had that synth sound but it was definitely the melody from series 1.

    oh and one more thing. rasillon addresses the doctors new regenerations. no closure, i know, as he states that he doesn’t know how many he was given by the TL’s but it’s food isn’t it…?

    just the beginning…

    #48738
    Anonymous @

    forgive me -this is Puro Solo but I have just watched the first portion with the diner scene ….Then he’s walking toward the city on Gallifrey via the barn (that barn).

    If any of the UK membership are still lurking and haven’t gone to sleep yet could someone explain how that happened? He wasn’t there in the earlier time of his life (the diner) as he shows up looking quite the mess from being in the Dial all ‘that time’. He couldn’t be there after arriving on Gallifrey as he has no Tardis (and he’s still a mess) and he has no bracelet either…

    I hope you can explain this for me?

    I’m stumped!

    Completely.

    Just Puro

     

    #48739
    tommo @tommo

    @puroandson – one word friend. ‘spoilers.’

    just stick with it and watch it through to the end. love from the uk. 🙂

    #48741
    Anonymous @

    Ah, oh, Ah, OK. I’ve read some comments. I better go and work it out….this will be a topper. I never comment mid-episode (call it the drugs baby! -remembering Smith)

    @tardisblue -Son of Puro forgets to answers the questions he’s been given. Yes, his favourite has always been and will always be Smithy or Eleven.  In fact he was ‘mine’ too but no, now I have no favourite, they’re all one lollapalooza of a Doctor  -I don’t mean children I mean the Doctor 🙂

    @pedant Ah I shall have to see but I recall you saying that the Doctor would be one who may have to forget his companions and others jumped on your bandwagon rather neatly (almost invisibly) but I believe you will be right (I’ve seen exactly 7 mins at this point) but as yet don’t understand how Clara can be in a diner in the middle of Nevada. Anyway…..I shall wait impatiently going the long way round…

    Kindest,

    Just Puro

    #48742
    Anonymous @

    @tommo

    OK you naughty Tommo – I will, I will, I will (try) but I’ve never been quite so confused with an opening scene before -nor frankly so shell shocked; “nothing is sad until it’s over”

    *cries* [thank goodness the Son is not watching me blubber all over the place]

    Right, pauses for a strong coffee and another Krispy Crème donut….my breakfast choices are ample these days. It’s like River with her “disgracefully” when asked “how did you turn tea into champagne?”

    Kindest,

    Puro SoLo

    #48745
    Anonymous @

    @tommo and those others extremely aware of fine details (which includes pretty much everyone)  – @pedant @spider @juniperfish :

    when the Doctor walks into the Diner, we hear “Don’t Stop me now” -the excerpt from Queen’s song (my favourite  –nearly  -of that particular group). Was that played in The Mummy episode last year? And is this cover by the singer Foxes or the group ‘Foxes’?

    I’m afraid I didn’t know who she was until I read last year’s posts & everyone was all “foxes!”

    I was all “wha?” with my mouth hanging unattractively open. Apologies, I’m hogging the thread -again.

    Just Puro

    #48746
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    Well, my brother phoned up a few minutes after the episode ended, was told I hadn’t watched it, and then, bless him, proceeded to ask lots of questions that basically gave the entire plot away. 🙄

    Sometimes, being the known Whovian in a family can be a bit of a problem.

    But I love him really. 😀

    #48747
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    How do you do the eye rolling emoticon? I know “twisted” and “smile” ; “sad” and “wink”

    ‘Eye roll’ -I think you did that after your brother’s reference to him giving “the entire plot away” ?

    You people are all very clever with your emoticons. I make my own up! <<*\*>>

    (that is supposed to be air or brains coming out of my head but not in a good way -as in “I’m a bit of ‘n’ air head”. Explaining things tends to ruin them.

    Just Puro

    #48749
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @puroandson

    The eye roll is like ‘twisted’, only use ‘roll’ instead.

    🙂

    #48750
    Spider @spider

    @puroandson !! A very belated welcome back from me – from what I can see you are some sort of hybrid now? Apologies for my belatedness, but I had a complete rush of spolier utter lockdown which involved even not looking on this site about any comments over the last couple of episodes.

    I caught the ‘don’t stop me know’, which indeed was the Queen song that ‘Foxes’ sang a cover of in Mummy on the orient express. I also had no who idea who she was, and still don’t. But love the song (both versions).

    The other riff I couldn’t place that was bugging me was ‘hotel California’ that people here have already mentioned, also the rose/bad wolf theme.

    I think we all need to hug the thread … oh, you said hog…nevermind. Lets all just hug the thread. Well, maybe, I will hold the threads hand …

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #48751
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Well, that was all kinds of excellent. A brilliant rejoinder to Donna’s fate in Journey’s End. Not crazy about the return of the Time Lords though — hopefully they won’t be making their presence felt that much. But in general as nice a bit of mythology resetting as in The Name of the Doctor.

    More thoughts later. But opening with Skaro and ending with Gallifrey and with more than a few serious Who highpoints in between, that was, in my view, one of the most accomplished series of Who, either BG or AG.

    #48752

    @puroandson

    STOP POSTING AND WATCH THE BLOODY EPISODE!!!!

    Sheesh. No wonder you’re confused! 😉

    And yes. As I may have mentioned upthread : Called it!

    =(^•^)=

    #48753
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    @pedant

    You get a bow from me.

    I’m glad she didn’t become Orson(yet) 😉

    I again have to go back to Douglas Adams for content. Restaurant at the end of the Universe vs Tardis diner. To you younger people please go read all of it so that you become as deranged as I. I must rewatch The name of the doctor to get full effect.

     

    #48754

    Also (also) what do we think the odds are of a certain diner turning up somewhere in the vicinity of Coal Hill School in the new spin-off?

    #48755

    @rorysmith

    He called me “younger”!

    *Preens*

    *Looks at C90 cassettes of the off-air recordings of the original broadcast of HHGTTG, complete with the Pink Floyd music*

    #48756
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Im my town, they put up a shop or diner one week and it’s gone in a year. This makes me wonder. Ha. Yes they would be silly not to do that. What’s Jenna’s contract status anyway?

    #48757
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Ahhhhh some Floyd would be nice right now.

    #48758

    Oh and big props to Jenna’s acting as Clara realises that the Doctor really, *really*, *truly* can’t remember her. Every emotion covered with just the subtlest of twitches.

    #48759
    Starla @starla

    @pedant You certainly did! Well done. It worked well with the whole ‘run you clever boy and remember’, but in the end he can never truly remember her, just how to be the Doctor. She has left him that gift.

    I mentioned over in spoilers too that this ‘long way round’ journey for Clara bow opens the possibility that she is Orson Pink’s grandma, provided one can bear children without a heartbeat. 😞

    I really like how the ending actually opened up so many possibilities. Usually the departure of a companion is an ending, and is sad and influences the Doctor’s decisions… but we’ve just had that, and now we have a new scenario where we have room for so much exciting stuff! Maybe more Clara and Ashildr adventures – old school diner tardis style! We have newly banished Rassilon who is probably feeling pretty cranky. The rest of the Time Lords aren’t that happy either. A Doctor who is (supposedly?) free from the pain of losing Clara and is ready to go. Very cool.

    #48760
    Starla @starla

    @pedant Also (also) what do we think the odds are of a certain diner turning up somewhere in the vicinity of Coal Hill School in the new spin-off?

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>I was </span><em style=”line-height: 1.5;”>just <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>thinking the exact same thing then read your post. That would be great ☺</span>

    #48761
    Anonymous @

    Afraid I’m not quite as blown away as everyone here- it was very good, certainly, but I found it pretty unsatisfying. It, like many a finale before, had all these big questions to answer and it kind of skated over them and threw things in for the sake of “this’ll be cool”. Yes, there’s a bit of griping in this post but I do have some interesting things to bring up as well.

    I really like Clara, and unlike some of you I thought her death in Face the Raven was perfect, and sensible. I cannot express my dismay at her being brought back and throwing away the impact of that scene just because Moffat can’t commit to these things or give characters a final end (see: ARSE). To me, nothing that happened between Clara & the Doctor in this episode made her exit any more meaningful than what happened in Raven. Pulling a reverse Donna is clever and new (well done @pedant!) but I don’t even think they hit the emotional centre of that on the head either. Admittedly, the idea of Clara & Ashildr rolling around space in a 50’s diner is pretty fun. (Also, Clara’s references throughout the series to Jane Austen being a great lover several times, and commenting on Ashildr being cute and wanting to steal her from the Doctor in Girl Who Died- maybe some interesting foreshadowing of this and their future after it…)

    It also weakens Heaven Sent and the search for Gallifrey. Gallifrey has returned. That’s surely the biggest event of AG Who, something that Day of the Doctor has certainly built up as a gigantic event, and not only is it completely sidestepped, but the explanation is completely dismissive. Gallifrey’s return was meant to be a big deal? Oh, it just came back of its own accord, somehow, whatever, whoops. Yes, the Doctor is pissed off at the leadership, due the torture and killing Clara’s death (though none of that’s really justified- Clara was killed by her own hand, and the torture, as I’ll say below, is by the Doctor’s own hand, and if he followed his own principles he needn’t have done it), and he successfully has his revenge on those people, but the continued existence of the planet, the ordinary people, the children, his friends and family? Not a word spoken.
    On the other hand, it is admittedly very Doctor-y to have all of the above happen, and to completely ignore all that and manipulate everyone into saving his companion and fly away again.
    The hybrid storyline is pretty damn clever, though slightly underwhelming in its delivery. A young Doctor hears a prophecy of a hybrid that will stand in Gallifrey’s ruins, and is so frightened by the implications that it’s him (??? need to rewatch) that he runs away. The Master, knowing this and maybe spending more time figuring it out, orchestrates this by finding a companion to set him up with such that they will drive each other past their limits, becoming dangerous, and will become the hybrid, by way of the Doctor destroying time for Clara. (That’s actually great- an absurdly complicated Master-y plan that no one predicted, that explains Clara’s perfection and answers the themes about them not being good together- foreshadowed by the Doctor rejecting Ashildr on grounds of them being too similar, whilst travelling with Clara who’s almost the same.) Rassilon, becoming increasingly concerned about the hybrid prophecy (maybe the Matrix started to be increasingly certain of its likelihood, as the Doctor and Clara continued to spend time together), sets out to trap the Doctor, and extract the information about the hybrid, in order to prevent it.
    Here’s my problem. In Heaven Sent, if the Doctor sees the knowledge of the hybrid as being so dangerous that he cannot tell it to the Time Lords at any cost, and dies repeatedly for 4 billion years to avoid it, that’s one thing. But here he says that he wasn’t doing that at all- he just wanted to get to Gallifrey, to the Time Lords, to save Clara, being fresh in grief. He wasn’t certain about the hybrid- he was just saying that to convince the Time Lords that he had the information that they needed, and then he had to find a way to get out without telling them that information, so that when he was on Gallifrey, he would still hold all the cards and be able to get them to save Clara. That’s really kind of a sketchy plan to suffer through 4 billion years of agony for, let alone to resurrect someone who’s already dead in direct violation of his own beliefs and values (foreshadowed by resurrecting Ashildr in Girl), and at great risk to time & space itself. I love Clara, but to say that she’s that important is extreme, and far beyond what the Doctor would have done for any other companion or anyone at all. That extreme reaction also undoes one of the things I liked about Face the Raven- the Doctor was devastated, but he faced it head-on and accepted it, rather than regenerating into a tear gland like Smith in Angels of Manhattan.

    At there are reasons for all of the boave, even if I didn’t find them convincing. The worst part of the episode was the cloister/undercroft/physical Matrix. That’s just pure “oh, it’s a finale, we’d better throw Daleks and Cybermen and Angels in somewhere!”. The cloister wraiths were never explained. There is no reason for the place to be used in the episode, or for the Doctor to have gotten the information about the hybrid there, other than “we need somewhere creepy and exciting for this episode”. The very existence of such a place is really unlike the Time Lords, as well.

    I loved everything prior to Clara being brought back, and wish we had seen more of the Time Lords in action. Rassilon was good- seems like, in the contest in The End of Time, and he and the Master caused each other to regenerate- but what’s more interesting is seeing how much more militaristic the Time Lord hierarchy is post-war. The general and his regeneration were great- the actress replacing him was an impossibly perfect match. The identification as a war hero makes sense. The barn, and the reactions of the woman and the Outsiders, was great. Oh, and the original TARDIS! So good.

    #48762
    True-Space-Wars-Lover @true-space-wars-lover

    I find this episode also very “A”wesome!. Gallifrey in fear, the Doctor angry, the Catacombs, ME,  the story about the boy, and the End of the Universe. I concur with what they said about the dying Stars both thing and i said them before they did. The Ending was sad and promising “HE STILL RUNS”.

    And the DINER has anybody noticed it´s the same Diner as in the Impossible Astronaut were he dies “ohh” right. The only thing bad was about the Hybrid there was still no suitable explanation.

    But thats the Doctor his Secrets have Secrets Secrets.  I can´t wait the next Season

    #48763
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    Hey man stop shouting at me! Sheesh and all that.  🙂

    I watched it and didn’t think for a moment that it demoted the impact of Clara’s death.

    From personal experience, and remembering forwards @supernumerary I will say this: everyone wants an extra chance. To stay alive, to give more, to be more, to be meaningful to others even if it eclipses the original intent.

    She simply enjoyed some extra life in between her birth and death. We all live and we all die and her time still approacheth. Or maybe not, as her pulse is quantum locked. But then the claricle was Clara and vice versa and it turned out differently from what we may have expected in Face the Raven -it was her actions, her motivations that mattered more -because I believe they do matter more. For her to be still alive was the Doctor’s choice but it was also Clara’s. This I think is dejavu from last year? 🙂

    It was about recurrence and to me, the fact the TLs were only present for parts of this episode was a relief, in my opinion -visiting the long way round was promised and Moffat delivered. It was one hour and much had to be packed in.

    We understood the hybrid and we understood Orson. We understood the serpent with Clara in his mouth -not yet swallowed whole.

    It was a herculean episode with flourish, abandon, lustiness and poignancy.

    I won’t compare it to last week’s as this was an episode that was very different and just because Moffat brought back Clara does not mean that essentially the author voice, @supernumerary, is saying “I am right. What I did was correct” but rather “this is all I could do. I wanted to save you.”

    Given our own mayfly experiences, if we had the chance, would we try again? Do something to save another? Even if it flew in the face of ethical behaviour? Perhaps.

    Kindest, Puro (flying SoLo).

    #48764
    Anonymous @

    That’s just pure “oh, it’s a finale, we’d better throw Daleks and Cybermen and Angels in somewhere!”. The cloister wraiths were never explained. There is no reason for the place to be used in the episode, or for the Doctor to have gotten the information about the hybrid there,

    @supernumerary

    couldn’t we speculate that the Doctor wanted to speak with the TLs on his own terms: yes, he wanted to save Clara but he also wanted to have some upper hand: to succeed within himself. To hold to his creed: “never give in, never give up”.

    To me this extends to how he wanted to save Clara who had fragmented herself repeatedly to save him. Of course she is more significant than other companions. She was the one, ultimately, who saved the billions of children on Gallifrey. She saved him in the Library with Donna and also as the Impossible Girl on the Dalek planet when she was Oswin: there she saved the Doctor and thus Rory and Amy. We need to countenance that and balance the scales, no?

    The wraiths I believe were explained quite satisfactorily -if you watch the trailer over and over  – as I did 🙂 it may help the understanding. The cloisters rang implying the danger of the Doctor approaching and of course the lady (whom I call the “mother in the barn”) said the simplest four words to which @pedant referred: “they will kill you”

    This is why, among other reasons, the cloister wraiths rang. It made some sense that the matrix  from last season has a distinct parallel here. We can argue that these ghosts guard the matrix: possibly the most important place on Gallifrey which is not subject (once you’re in there) to the successful use of weapons including, of course, the Tardis.

    We’re assuming the Matrix core must contain the ghosts of those TLs who finished their regeneration cycle (a call back to the sewers of the Daleks? Not quite, I ascertain) and it could contain an imprint of the wraiths of other species: be they daleks or Weeping Angels. There’s also a hard light hologram or transmutability of other species or thoughts of species: but I believe that is laid open for future stories.

    There’s more to see and I like that. More to imagine ourselves and I like that. I loved the conversations with ‘Me’: “what’s your theory?”  I liked their bonkerising very much indeed.

    I also understand this would not be to everyone’s taste but on the element of the Doctor as saviour -I liked it very much. People will always forget someone important no matter how much they say they will not) and it was the Doctor’s turn. Moffat  disentrenched the notion of simply resurrecting Clara @supernumerary by ensuring the Doctor forgot the one who repeatedly saved him.

    I cannot think of a worse alternative for Clara. To be only faintly remembered by the Doctor?  The Doctor now has a similar problem as Ashildr -he has infinite memory but cannot access this most important element. The balance of the season lies therein and the potency of Face the Raven has not been diluted.

    And that’s Moffat’s tipping point. Kindest,

    Puro and Son

    PS: I hope you enjoy it better on a second watch @supernumerary.

     

    #48765

    @supernumerary

    Gallifrey has returned. That’s surely the biggest event of AG Who

    Not really. Gallifrey is still cowering in the shadows at the end of time, hated by everyone for the carnage it wrought.

    On the other hand, a mightily pissed-off Rassillon is now in exile. That is far more interesting.

    Because Doctor Who soars when it is about people. Not Gallifrey, not UNIT, not the in and outs and ups and downs of Dalek society, but about people. Gallifreyan people, Terran people, Sontaran people. A loan, isolated Dalek is a much more fascinating beast than a sky full of them. The not-so-high-born of Gallifrey knew in an instant who their hero was, not the big hat wearers; they knew it was the runaway, the person, the  Time Lord not the Time Lords.

    The Doctor found his way home and found the meaning of the old adage: You can’t go home again. But your friends will still give you soup.

    And that’s Inverse Donna, thank you 😉 Not that I’m going to milk this or anything.

    @true-space-wars-lover

    The only thing bad was about the Hybrid there was still no suitable explanation

    There was a perfectly clear (not sure what suitable means in this context) explanation: the gestalt entity that is Doctor+Clara.

    #48766
    Anonymous @

    @true-space-wars-lover

    Hello this is Son of Puro speaking. I am sort of new by myself and are you new too? I am 14. You said this:

    The only thing bad was about the Hybrid there was still no suitable explanation

    I find that interesting. I think it was sort of explained. I have watched the conversation with ‘Me’ a few times now with Mum and I think they were theorising a  lot about who it is. I understand what they were trying to suggest. I also believe that not explaining everything but leaving it to our own level of understanding is a very, very good aspect. In tv nowadays everything is explained over and over.

    I don’t like it when tv patronises me all the time. I can think for myself and I like to. So, maybe that is what the writer was suggesting? That we need to conclude for ourselves and also to listen really carefully. That was the structure of last season: the idea that we had to “Listen” in listen. The other theme of this story is: “we are all stories in the end” as well as “everybody dies”.

    I like those themes because they give me hope. Its not that Moffat is indecisive I think it’s because he leaves a chequered board behind? He is capricious and he is eccentric just like the Doctor. I hope I have gotten those words right. We are learning 10 new words in English every week in the upper grade class they’ve put me in for that subject so apologies if I’ve mucked up.

    @tardisblue I hope to hear your ideas about what you saw too!!

    Thankyou for reading

    From Son of Puro

    #48767

    Right. Bed time

    Final thought: We still do not know the link between River and Clara, which she teased in Name of the Doctor.

    There’s a little thread dangled for Yule.

    By the way, did I mention that I totally called it?

    #48768
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @supernumerary

    Afraid I’m not quite as blown away as everyone here- it was good, certainly, but I found it pretty unsatisfying.

    I’m much in the same camp- while there were some good elements, overall I was left unsatisfied, and annoyed with a number of elements. I wanted to like the episode, but just couldn’t.

    It, like many a finale before, had all these big questions to answer and it kind of skated over them and threw things in for the sake of “this’ll be cool”

    Yes- little resolution overall- even the “hybrid” theme wasn’t really wrapped up very convincingly for my money – I couldn’t buy the Doctor + Clara as two different people together forming a “hybrid”. It seems the Doctor doesn’t even really have a clear idea who the hybrid is- when he says “me” is seems he might have meant “me” or “Me”- we wasn’t really sure which himself. He certainly doesn’t know. In fact what made Rassilon think he knew, if he doesn’t, and they had access to the confession dial to check anyway? Maybe there was more sense in that I missed?

    I cannot express my dismay at her being brought back and throwing away the impact of that scene just because Moffat can’t commit to these things or give characters a final end

    I liked your phrase “emotional centre”. That was largely missing for me too. To complete the emotional arc of the story, Clara has to face the raven. Her flitting off indefinitely, now presumably immortal (or at least unageing) herself, with her new 4 billion year old bestie, just isn’t an emotionally satisfying or logically acceptable conclusion. If the Doctor and Clara overstepped previously, isn’t making her immortal and risking the fate of the universe having her gadflying about, with Me, who has previously said she’d made it her mission to stop the Doctor doing damage, an unacceptable resolution for every party involved?

    That’s surely the biggest event of AG Who, something that Day of the Doctor has certainly built up as a gigantic event, and not only is it completely sidestepped, but the explanation is completely dismissive. Gallifrey’s return was meant to be a big deal?

    Previously, it was played that them returning was a huge deal, risking the Time War starting afresh- so to handle their return in such a matter-of-fact way, with the Doctor not even to bothering to ask about it, for fear of stroking their egos, is an extraordinary anticlimax. The lack of epic scope altogether was disappointing in general- sure the universe is potentially at stake, but when the main characters don’t seem to even take that seriously, it’s hard to as an observer either.

    The worst part of the episode was the cloister/undercroft/physical Matrix. That’s just pure “oh, it’s a finale, we’d better throw Daleks and Cybermen and Angels in somewhere!”. The cloister wraiths were never explained.

    Agreed- seemingly random addition- it looked like it was going to be key to the plot, then goes nowhere. Don’t even know why he went there really. Sprinkling in some token old enemies didn’t help in dispelling the “randomness”. Plus the set barely being a step above a BG Who boxy underground set made me wonder why they bothered. They may have blown the CGI budget on the Capitol exterior, which admittedly was stunning 🙂

    Rassilon was good- seems like, in the contest in The End of Time, and he and the Master caused each other to regenerate

    Good to see Rassilon, but couldn’t quite get on board with the casting / scripting. He seemed like an ineffectual old man rather the powerful (immortal?) warlord. The Rassilon of legend, if he wanted the Doctor dead, would have killed him himself, not set up a firing squad and turned his back. I thought the casting much much stronger with Dalton previously, so I hope when they bring the character back (he’ll certainly be after the Doctor!) that he’s recast.

    A few more niggles to get off my chest:

    “Reversing the polarity”: perhaps some might find that an enjoyable in-group reference I suppose, but it’s so old hat it had me exclaiming “Oh, c’mon!” at the screen. That’s a phrase that needs to be retired, permanently, IMO.

    After a lifetime of non-violence, the Doctor shoots a relatively sympathetic unarmed man without any real need, after seemingly checking if the shot will be fatal or just trigger a regeneration and finding that it would be fatal (seemingly a lie though). Did that really happen? Did I miss some reason that the Doctor would know for sure it wouldn’t be much more than an inconvenience? He does seem dismissive moments later.

    It bothered me, maybe more than it should have, that the present + 4.5 billion years is regarded as “near the end of the time stream”. The universe is 13+ billion years old- it’s not winding down in another 4.5 billion, and that’s certainly nothing like the timeframe given on the Doctor’s last visit to the end of the universe.

    OK- enough negatives- I don’t want to be overwhelmingly negative, particularly as many seemed to have really enjoyed the episode.

    The best parts for me were in the diner- great idea, well thought out, scripted and acted. Almost managed to carry the episode emotionally for me. The lead actors have been great throughout the series.

    #48770
    Anonymous @

    dear Mr @pedant

    you are still up! Mum would hack me to death if I stayed up till 2 am!

    Yes, I agree with your assessment. I thought the hybrid was explained and I then thought “oh no, I have it wrong.”

    I didn’t! I think that the TLs were back for just the right amount of time. As Mum was saying it is always about how people intereact with others in life -and in art therefore the low-born of Gallifrey recognised their hero who stopped the loss of people and the death of the small children.

    That is why Eleven was my hero/ I also think that what Mum might have said about the importance of Clara’s role in Face the Raven hasn’t been lost or extinguished. I believe we must look at what she was prepared to do: her stridency about her own death and how she went to that with bravery was very moving to me.

    She loved her life and she didn’t want to lose the memories she had. I remember River saying the same thing in SiL: “Don’t you re-write a single line. Not those memories. You watch us run.” She said almost the same thing Clara said, actually.

    Also, whilst the Doctor may not have re-written time for Amy and Rory, this was different. His companion died on “his watch” During his “duty of care” -like a teacher. And he thought she’d understand that. He made a decision for her and in the end she accepted it -in a way.

    I believe that his need to save “his Clara” was significant and just because he hasn’t done that before doesn’t mean the dr can’t change and do something different? He can act differently. He can change. It is his right to change time or bring back someone if, for whatever reason, he thinks its necessary @supernumerary ?

    Thankyou for reading

    Just Son

    #48771
    Anonymous @

    @tardigrade

    Oh shame! you didn’t like it at all. I thought the wraiths were really well explained actually (but I’m 14 and may have missed a lot) and also I really bought the hybrid theme -the idea of it being two makes sense to me?

    But I could be totally wrong. I also felt that the corridors in the Matrix were pretty scary. But enough of me: mum wrote a long post and so did I which I’m sure you read anyway.

    It didn’t blow my mind like last week but it came awfully close. For me, imagining and coming up with explanations in my own words is great. I also can say that there were a lot of metaphors -t0 me Who is very metaphor based and that can make it difficult to understand or appreciate and some times that is lost on me because I am young but still I like the grasping of the metaphors.

    I thought also that the TLs were seen as the ineffectual people they had become. They would send an army of people to kill the Doctor: they were now frightened of him. They would put some distance between him and themselves -always send the soldiers: that’s a metaphor for the whole of the Time War isn’t it? The soldiers and the children?

    That is Rassilon’s failure and the soldiers knew it. They would risk being wiped out first.

    Also, when the Doctor used his weapon he was not The Doctor there: he was the War Doctor again -it was another metaphor where the Doctor isn’t always what we think -sometimes he finds it hard to stick to being the healer he should be.

    Thankyou for reading @tardigrade

    Just Son of Puro

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