Hell Bent

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  • #48772
    Avaris @avaris

    I just woke up, and will rewatch it later in the day.

    @puroandson
    Nice catch of Don’t Stop Me Now cover in the dinner.  I think there are a lot of little references to the adventures of the Doctor and Clara in this episode or in this series, for instance, the barn to the Day of the Doctor and Listen (soldier with no gun too), Cold War references at some point, “we are all stories in the end” in Robots of Sherwood (A very nice touch of making Clara into a story/ or the Doctor’s moral side in Heaven sent that inspire him to do the right thing.  This way despite Clara’s departure, she will still leave inside Twelve Doctor).  This is a nice way to thank Jenna Coleman’s three years of contributions to the show.

    @supernumerary
    I too find it a bit anti-climaxing  and unsatisfying.  I agree that they should have left Clara dead.  However, once Moffat decided to bring back Clara this episode, there is nothing more suitable than this ending since the Doctor spent 4.5 billion years trying to save Clara ( a nice parallel to Clara echo trying to save the Doctor(s)).  Anything less will create riot among the Doctor Who/ Clara fans.

    @starla
    Yes, it fixes the continuity problem with Orson Pink.  At the same time it creates more issues.  For example are Clara Echo really Echos and not Prime.  I mean Clara with her own Tardis can travel back in time to save the Doctor at various points.  She might be pretending haven’t met the Doctor in Snowman and didn’t die ( since she have no life signal.)  One problem is how to explain Asylum of the Daleks, Tardis in the form of a Dalek ?? LOL

    Plus there are so many unanswered questions, confession dial(how it comes into possession of the Doctor), gallifrey (where is it, how it returns), Ashildr (who is she collabrating with Missy or another Timelord?)  and Clara (why is she so impossible and why Missy chose her.)

    —–

    The Clara exit is very Clara-ry ( it is just all over the place).  It is innovative but it sort of undermine all the character progress of her development in Series 9.  Her acceptance of her death in Face the Raven is beautiful and mature, and this episode just undoes it all.  I think the exits in Death in Heaven and Last Christmas are just more superior than this one.

    Clara Who is now a nice summary of all the characteristic of NuWho.

    Doctor-wise
    She steals the Tardis and runs away from Gallifrey. First Doctor
    She works with the UNIT. Second Doctor
    She says “Reverse the polarity”. Third Doctor’s iconic phrase.
    (Please fill the rest. I have only watched a episode of Classic Who)
    She saves his companion by sacrificing himself (sort of). Ninth Doctor.
    She causes the memory lost of her closest friend. Tenth Doctor.
    She has to face her death eventually or a friend cheeses her death (Trenzalore). Eleventh Doctor.
    She is the apprentice of the Twelve Doctor.

    Companion-wise
    Like Rose, she receives her own Tardis (wait there was delected). So, in a vaguer sense, she gets a souvenir from the Doctor ;).
    Like Martha, she chooses her way of departure – retaining the memories of adventure with the Doctor. ( Also, it is a nice touch in the Girl who Died that depicting the Doctor could not think of losing Clara.  Maybe Twelve losing memories of Clara is for his own good.)
    Like Donna, she losses her closet friend.
    Like Amy, she begins her life without the Doctor.

    Random thoughts, BBC can really do a Paternoster Gang and Clara Who Spinoff.  It will be quite (a-hem) interesting character relation between Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Ashildr. This will be just very weird. But I bet every episode will pass the Bechdel Test for sure.  XD

    #48773
    Cara1313 @cara1313

    The Hybrid will one day cost a billion hearts to heal it’s own. Maybe that day has passed- the Doctor, trying to get Clara back, sacrificed himself billions of times. Not killed 4 billion times because each time he was there for days before he was killed, but with his two hearts multiplied by all of the others… Maybe the Hybrids work is done? But is. He. Half. Human. I have wondered for years about this theory, even since before the 8th Doctors saying as such -but then, rule one, the Doctor Lies.

    And Clara in reverse of Donna.

    Also, President’s daughter. The episode made it sound almost as if when the Matrix told the Doctor of the hybrid and he ran this was the first time he ran from Gallifrey. Does this mean Susan was not his granddaughter by the President’s daughter or did I miss something and this was a different time and has something to do with Romana that I missed?

    #48774
    Avaris @avaris

    Whoops, forgot to mention that, Clara last words to the Doctor is beautifully phrased.

    “Run you clever boy and be a Doctor”

    First half is referring to her adventures with Eleventh Doctor – always running, no idea why they are going.

    Second half is a nice twist as the Doctor could not remember her anymore (hmm, I think the words on the blackboard in Listen  are probably written by Clara too).

    “Be a Doctor” concludes her influence on Eleventh and Twelve.

    Clara has become the inner subconscious moral teacher of Twelve.  When face with perils and important decisions Clara will always be with Twelve in his storm room.  This adds depth in Twelve seeking for dangers and adventures – to have a tiny glimpse of Clara.  See it in this way is just beautiful.  The storm room concept is just brilliant, I can’t emphasize more.

    I still think Clara should have died.

    #48775
    misterhoo @misterhoo

    @avaris

    She did die.  She’s just taking the long way there.

    #48776
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @supernumerary @tardigrade see I feel that Clara’s departure was kind of a way to appease all.
    – She survived
    – Her journey from Apprentice to Magician, follower to leader, is complete, nicely closing that arc
    – Ashildr finally got to travel in time and space
    – It doesn’t change the nobleness of her sacrifice for Rigsy in any way
    – Eventually she will still have to go back and Face The Raven
    – It allows CapDoc to continue without grief

    Truly, it is a better ending to her story than I could ever have imagined

    #48777
    lisa @lisa

    @avaris

    Like your lists

    @pedant

    well done Clara theory

    So this was mostly to tie up the Clara story arc .   I was actually hoping for more ties to some

    of the other mythologies.  So I was a bit underwhelmed  because I had been hopeful for that.

    But I did enjoy this. It was a better departure for Clara than immediate death by raven.  I wasn’t

    very impressed with new Rassilon. I don’t think old Rassilon would have been so easily deposed.

    It will never be the same going to eat in a diner again.

     

     

    #48779
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Just something I’ve realized: Moffat said Clara’s exit would “Shock, Terrify, and Surprise”

    Shock = Death in Face The Raven
    Terrify = CapDoc’s torture whilst grieving in Heaven Sent
    Surprise = Survival, time travel and forgotten by CapDoc in Hell Bent

    #48780
    Starla @starla

    @bendubz11

    I agree. I think it was a nice way to resolve her arc, and didn’t take away from her choice to save Rigsy.

    Interestingly, a few weeks ago, many made note of that glowing light that flashed when the raven flew into Clara’s body. I would now theorize that the light flashed as her body was returned via the extraction chamber, and that these events had always occurred, and had occurred even as we were watching Face the Raven.

    My only criticisms of the finale were the Sisterhood of Karn who seemed superfluous –  not sure how or why yhey were there (I’m sure we can concoct a reason, I don’t think they added to the story)… and the lacklustre use of the cloister wraiths/ that chamber. It was really set up to be something in the promos.

    In fact, I think my main beef this season would have to be with the promo team for DW. Too many spoilers online, facebook etc. They need to cut it right back. People see too much, get excited and develop high expectations based on what is shown – then whatever actually happens is just not good enough (even if it is fantastic).

    #48781
    Avaris @avaris

    @misterhoo
    Urgency of death matters.  There is a huge difference between having 5 mins to live to 5 years to live.   People tends to care less if things happen in the distant future.

    I also doubt that she will die.

    I think Clara can only die when she goes back to the fixed point in Face the Raven.  I am not sure if it is fixed anymore.  Only Twelve witness Clara’s Death, yet Twelve forgets about Clara.

    In the case if it is a fixed point in time, Clara will unable to die or age before that point.  Clara now does not metabolize since she does not need breathing and heart-beating.  She is more immortal than Ashildr.  Hence, if the Timelord can’t catch Clara, she can travel in the Tardis forever.

    #48782
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    If any bonkers theorist had come up with a short version of that plot ahead of the episode and posted it, I’d have thought they were in serious need of a long lie down in a darkened room with a pot of coffee and twelve jammy dodgers. But I thought it worked beautifully. For me, Clara’s original death was a big surprise. It had been flagged up all season, was certainly handled convincingly and very much in character for Clara, but it felt too obvious a thing to have happened. I expected her to stay dead though, so this ending was even more of a surprise.

    By this point, I’m not sure what term should be used for Clara. Companion hardly does the job for her place in the Doctor’s history. Now she’s in a stolen Type 40 Tardis (wonderful to see the old console!) , something more like comptor would maybe fit better. Maybe @avaris is right: it should be Clara Who.

    @tardigrade    It bothered me, maybe more than it should have, that the present + 4.5 billion years is regarded as “near the end of the time stream”. The universe is 13+ billion years old- it’s not winding down in another 4.5 billion, and that’s certainly nothing like the timeframe given on the Doctor’s last visit to the end of the universe.  If there’s a real physicist on the forum, I’d be delighted to be corrected, but as I understand it, after the Big Bang (13.8 Billion years ago), stars and galaxies formed out of gas. As some of those stars aged and exploded as supernovae, other elements were created that went into later generations of stars, some of which exploded, and on things went. Eventually enough carbon and other elements were made that it was possible to form bonkers theorists and Time Lords (all of whom are made of star stuff) after another long evolutionary trail. There was then a very lengthy time before the clock started on the 4.5 Billion years the Doctor spent in the confession dial. Various ideas are in play on how the universe will end, but some predictions by a group of physicists from a few years ago were headlined:  “But according to a new paper, there’s one theory for the origins of the universe that predicts time itself will end in just five billion years—coincidentally, right around the time our sun is slated to die.” If so, things would sort of work. (Here is the link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/10/101027-science-space-universe-end-of-time-multiverse-inflation/)

    #48783
    misterhoo @misterhoo

    By dying, is Clara “practically immortal”?  In theory, as long as she returns to her moment of death, there will be no cataclysmic paradox that will tear apart time and space.  However, she plans to take some adventures in her TARDIS before that happens.  Isn’t she taking a big risk by delaying her return?  If she “dies” before returning, does the universe end?  Does the universe protect itself by protecting her?

    On last thought, even at 4.5 billion years old, the Doctor is still younger than Ashildr.

    #48784
    Anonymous @

    @supernumerary

    I am sorry if I was responding negatively to what you said. I guess I was trying to work it out from your own viewpoint and to respect it -because you are  a perceptive and intelligent person with a gracious way of writing. I was just giving out my viewpoint. I hope I have been very positive with everyone on the Forum because you and they have taught me so much. I really appreciate this. 🙂 thankyou

    I think Mum in her first two posts was saying that the Doctor wanted to give young Clara a second chance? He felt that he wanted her back because as Mum was saying wouldn’t you give a person who is dying a second chance? I think that’s maybe what mum was trying to say? And I think she kept using question marks which means there’s always a wonderful opportunity to discuss those elements in film like should we bring back people once they are dead? Does Moffat not know how to kill someone off? I think it’s hard as a writer to kill off a well loved character. In school, we were learning about keeping characters so they resonated with ourselves. To ensure that people resonate with each other?

    I think Moffat is exploring that and I don’t know if what he’s saying is that the importance of her death is any the less sad in Face the Raven considering the events of Hell Bent but as I said on the other page before, I can understand why it’s not to everyone’s taste and I think Mum said that too.

    Thankyou for reading again. I appreciate your understanding considering mum’s situation: we are a hybrid creature (argh argh!!)

    Just Son of Puro (Mum is resting at the moment)

    #48785
    Jeff @jeff

    Wonderful ending to the series! I just have one question. Does anyone know the song that the Doctor was playing on the guitar? I heard Clara say that what she told him back in the Matrix area probably manifested itself as that song and I was curious as to what that tune is/where it’s from.

    Great episode!

    #48786
    Anonymous @

    @jeff

    halloo are you new to the site? If so welcome! I loved it too -we both did. I thought the song was the Clara theme but I’ll have to ask my mum

    @misterhoo yes, mum and I are asking ourselves the same question: there are some questions which could still be open and need some answers, maybe or another rewatch but that’s a good point.

    @countscarlioni I think that is really interesting -your info about the universe. I wish we could learn that in science. That would be awesome. I can’t comprehend such huge numbers. In the sea, would there have been millions and billions of skulls in Heaven Sent or was that a set up too? I think so

    @bendubz11

    Yes, I agree with how you summed it up. That was well summed up.

    @avaris

    I totally agree with that and the way you summarised that argument: “Urgency of death matters.  There is a huge difference between having 5 mins to live to 5 years to live.   People tends to care less if things happen in the distant future.” That’s great.

    @starla

    My only criticisms of the finale were the Sisterhood of Karn who seemed superfluous –  not sure how or why yhey were there (I’m sure we can concoct a reason, I don’t think they added to the story)… and the lacklustre use of the cloister wraiths/ that chamber.

    I think that’s an issue too -the first comment you made there? Yes, I wondered about them but I don’t know enough. They were in the first episode. Do you think they were there to say “be the Doctor not the warrior” this time? I think that the cloister wraiths were the species there of all that the old TLs have seen including hard light holograms of the Daleks and the Weeping Angels? But that’s just our opinion. Maybe it was put up to be too much in the whole of the advertisements we saw on tv before hand do you think? The ads are a real problem. We don’t get too much in Aus but I think they do in the States and maybe Canada?

    Thankyou for reading and for all the positive engagements with each other @craig. A great Forum and the Hy-brid loves it.

    It’s all over for the year….nearly 🙂

    Puro and Son

    #48787
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @puroandson

    I thought also that the TLs were seen as the ineffectual people they had become. They would send an army of people to kill the Doctor: they were now frightened of him. They would put some distance between him and themselves – always send the soldiers: that’s a metaphor for the whole of the Time War isn’t it? The soldiers and the children?

    That is Rassilon’s failure and the soldiers knew it. They would risk being wiped out first.

    I like that interpretation. I was disappointed that Rassilon was so weak, but yes- I think you’re right- that was a deliberate choice- the TLs are a beaten, frightened people still hiding from the rest of the universe at a remote point in time. Now that’s he out in the universe and doubtless regards the Doctor as his enemy, I hope we see Rassilon fire up for his return though, because potentially he makes a powerful enemy for the Doctor.

    @cara1313

    The Hybrid will one day cost a billion hearts to heal its own. Maybe that day has passed- the Doctor, trying to get Clara back, sacrificed himself billions of times

    I had the same thought, but the prophecy this time around was “… this creature will one day stand in the ruins of Gallifrey. It will unravel the web of time and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own”. Hundreds of billions suicides maybe, but nothing on that scale. And unravelling the web of time sounds more like the potential consequences of saving Clara than his suicides. So I don’t think the prophecy has been fulfilled. The future can be changed though- the prophecy doesn’t have to come true. If he didn’t think it could be changed, Rassilon wouldn’t have been so keen on knowing who the hybrid was.

    Does this mean Susan was not his granddaughter by the President’s daughter or did I miss something and this was a different time and has something to do with Romana that I missed?

    It’s suggestive to me that Susan could have been the president’s daughter perhaps, rather than the Doctor’s granddaughter. It was the 4th Doctor who met Romana, so significantly later.

    #48788
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @countscarlioni

    But according to a new paper, there’s one theory for the origins of the universe that predicts time itself will end in just five billion years—coincidentally, right around the time our sun is slated to die.” If so, things would sort of work.

    Interesting… I think that’s pretty speculative and most theories suggest it would get much older. The scenario of what appears to be playing out as Me watches looks more like a heat death type scenario where the universe stops producing stars in the remote future (hundreds of billions years or more).

    Regardless, my issue was more with continuity- in “Utopia” in S3 the Doctor and Martha travel to the end of the universe in the year 100 trillion. So 5 billion years from now isn’t remotely close to the end of time.

    #48789
    Rob @rob

    Morning All (plus Afternoon/Evening depending upon relevant time-zone)

    The wraiths were guardians of the Matrix and the odd monster was transformed into a guard-dog (a guard-dog looks scary and intimidates but is under the control of the handler ie The Matrix). The monsters were in the under cloister to try and steal the Matrix. All stated in the episode as I hadn’t watched a trailer.

    If you want the ultimate hybridisation then get Clara and Ashildr to welcome Jenny, the Doctors daughter, to their Tardis gang (be wonderful is Ashildr’s name morphed to Alice…… as…. You Can Get Any Thing You Want At Alice’s Restaurant)

    I found the concept of the duo-hybrid perfectly acceptable. Absolutely foreshadowed by our own prophet(s) as @puroandson o:-)

    The Doctor does need to forget Clara for future plot continuity. She jumped into his time-stream, past and future to frustrate the GI, who just as obviously will have been pushing the Doctor towards failure at each point too another never ending Time War in a Tardis…. So War Doctor on Gallifrey, exiles Rassilon causes chaos, uses a gun all equals GI upper hand in making naughtyness. Then Clara appears, the War/12 hybrid Doctor knows he needs her to become ‘The Doctor’ once more and combat the ever present but usually controlled Oncoming Storm/Predator. Clara once again saves the Doctor but both know that (and so do we if we actually think about it) Clara and the Claracles have to remain hints and nudges and stories to carry on working throughout the rest of time. This is orthodox theory (most unusual for me but……. Clara form The Name of the Doctor

    “I don’t know where I am. It’s like I’m breaking into a million pieces and there’s only one thing I remember. I have to save the Doctor. He always looks different.
    But I always know it’s him. Sometimes I think I’m everywhere at once, running every second just to find him.
    Just to save him.
    But he never hears me.
    Almost never. I blew into this world on a leaf.
    I’m still blowing. I don’t think I’ll ever land. I’m Clara Oswald. I’m the Impossible Girl. I was born to save the Doctor.”

    No that was a prophesy fulfilled

    and forgot…. two things (some things)

    One we are all hybrids internally each always struggling with our own inner good and bad sides

    War Doctor/Oncoming-Storm/Predator v Doctor

    GI v Clara(s)

    The struggle to do the right thing in life is never ending

     

    #48790
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @misterhoo

    By dying, is Clara “practically immortal”? In theory, as long as she returns to her moment of death, there will be no cataclysmic paradox that will tear apart time and space. However, she plans to take some adventures in her TARDIS before that happens. Isn’t she taking a big risk by delaying her return? If she “dies” before returning, does the universe end? Does the universe protect itself by protecting her?

    If the prophecy is to be believed, she may destroy the universe. She’s immortal in the sense of unageing- but if her bodily processes are stopped, potentially she actually can’t heal, so would be very vulnerable to injury? So a much lesser form of immortality than Ashildr. If you assume that the universe will protect her, then time is healing itself and she presumably doesn’t pose a risk.

    @starla

    Too many spoilers online, facebook etc. They need to cut it right back. People see too much, get excited and develop high expectations based on what is shown – then whatever actually happens is just not good enough (even if it is fantastic).

    Certainly this episode failed to meet my expectations. Some epic finales in the past, plus trailers that suggested an epic scope and significant conflict, plus a very strong and thought-provoking lead-up episode had me expecting something else entirely than a fairly plot-light farewell to Clara. This didn’t play like a finale to me. I’d probably have been more forgiving on it mid-season.

    #48791
    Arch @arch

    Well what can I say this was Sci-fi gold. Capaldi brilliant as we have come to expect. Easily the best doctor in my opinion last weeks performance sealed it for me and this episode is a close second.

    I will need a re-watch to let things sink in properly but my initial impressions are all positive, I had mixed feelings on whether bringing Clara back was a bad idea but by the end of the episode I was on-board.

    When they reached the end of time and I saw Me sitting alone with the chessboard (I expected the game to be in progress as clearly its not the first time they have met here) I just clapped, excellent scene.

    Can’t wait to see what happens with the next season and I’m very glad to see old favourites make a reappearance in the Christmas Special.

    Bravo Moffat, may be a touch timey wimey for some but I Sir adored it start to finish.

    Love Arch

    #48792
    Starla @starla

    @tardigrade It’s suggestive to me that Susan could have been the president’s daughter perhaps, rather than the Doctor’s granddaughter.

    Hmm… maybe the Doctor was the president’s father? Or father-in-law? 😉

    #48793
    Serahni @serahni

    Well!

    I found this riveting.  At the moment, I’m still processing my feelings about it, as well as trying to determine if there are any dangling loose-ends that still need answering, but my first impression was that it was an exciting way to resolve things for now.

    I remember reading comments, back when Smith left, that his goodbye to Clara was somehow drastically disrespectful; I don’t think we can ever claim now that the character hasn’t been given her just desserts. Has there ever been another companion that he has risked so much for?   That in itself makes me want to believe there is more to Clara yet, that Me’s theorising about his connection to Earth might hold further explanation.

    The Doctor: The last I heard, he stole the moon and the President’s wife.

    Clara: Was she, erm… Was she nice, the President’s wife?

    The Doctor: Ah, well, that was a lie put about by the Shabogans. It was the President’s daughter. I didn’t steal the moon, I lost it…

    Of course, this is set-up to sound like Hartnell’s Doctor and, presumably, Susan.  And it fits, without question.  I don’t really get the moon reference here, is this referencing something from Hartnell’s time that I don’t recall or something thrown in to either be nothing or something, as Moffat loves doing?

    On the other hand, with the slight-of-tongue in this episode, (“It’s Me” indeed), could it be possible that The Doctor is referring to himself and the fact that he’s about to steal Clara?  The General did say Gallifrey was at his command, and referred to him as Lord President when arguing with him about Clara.  Perhaps he is about to steal his own daughter, and whilst that is a very old theory that might just be wishful thinking on my part, I am still trying to explain why Clara.  He sat on a cloud for a very long time and mourned Amy and Rory and they were family.  4.5 billion years and the entire universe risked for Clara?  Why?  I know they were close, but The Doctor and Sarah-Jane were close.  The Doctor and Rose were very close.  The Doctor and River were exceptionally close.  He’s accepted loss before, why not now?

    It just seems very….father-ish to me.

    One thing I’m confused about; why did they both say Missy brought them together?  I’m a bit lost about that bit.  Still, we have Missy’s tidbit about having a daughter, and now we have a second Time Lord regenerating into a Time Lady and that honestly felt really, somehow, deliberate.

    Is The Doctor Clara’s…mother? o.o  Turning the universe upside-down to save her offspring?  WAS HARTNELL NOT THE FIRST?

    My brain is hurting!

    #48794
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    We had a series of electrical brownouts last night (probably caused by storm whateverhisnameis) and so I’ve only just managed to watch the episode. If you happened to hear random swear words cursed into the night, possibly curdling milk and disturbing sleeping children then it was probably me. Even if you were in Australia.

    As many know, like @jimthefish I’m pretty resistant to the ‘charms’ of the Time Lords. As such I think this is the second best use of them after Deadly Assassin. It shares some characteristics with that story as well, which is probably why it worked. It focused on the hopelessness and fear of the most powerful race in the Universe. And the corruption of their ruling class.

    I loved the Western vibe of the drylands. The Doctors foot drawn ‘line in the sand’ then becoming a line of guns in the sand as ‘old Gallifrey’, in the form of Rassilon is humiliated. I also liked the riff on ‘the Mountain must come to Mohammed’ as Rassilon is drawn down the path to his own defeat.

    The regeneration of the General was a first. Seriously, in all the Time Lord deaths in the old series we never saw one of them attempt regeneration. And it’s into a black woman, who is relieved her ‘one off’ as a man is over. Take that, conservative fandom. Suck. It. Up.

    Loved the idea of the Matrix Wraiths. I was sure I saw a couple of familiar faces in their ever changing screaming Faces. The Castellan from Five Doctors for one.

    The idea that something deleted can be determined by the holes it leaves behind is a nod to Nightmare in Silver. Neil Gaiman. He really has got a lot of references this series, including meeting an immortal at the end of time (see his Books of Magic). I loved the knocking on that old (squee inducing) TARDIS door referencing Listen. Awesome Pink lived in fear, potentially, of Maisie Williams who wanted someone to talk to.

    Ah, that old TARDIS. With a dodgy chameleon circuit. My headcanon now reads that they stole a museum piece type forty. After countless Adventures with Me she drops it off on Gallifrey, in the past and recommends it to Doctor one. “It’s navigation is knackered, but it’ll give you a lot of fun”. Two careful owners. Stolen as seen. No returns.

    So we leave Gallifrey to stew at the end of time. Good riddance. Someone will bring it back, no doubt.

    @juniperfish

    I would have preferred the sadder ending

    I think I asked for optimism for Clara, and I think this works. Like the Doctor retreating into his mind palace, she can accomplish so much between her heartbeats,and then face the Raven as you say. Definitely having your cake and eating it. And cake is nice in moderation. 😀

    Definitely agree with @jimthefish about the corrective nature or counterpoint to Donna in this. Yes, 10 gave Donna a life and saved her, but destroyed the person she had become with no choice on her part. This inverted that choice and left Clara to plead the case she would rather die than change. Can the people who regularly call Moffat a misogynist please STFU?

    @true-space-wars-lover

    The answer to who the hybrid is was written all over the series, but articulated by Missy. ” We’re all hybrids, in one way or another”.

    Congratulations to @blenkinsopthebrave for calling my speculation that Missy was involved a load of old tosh. I still think Michelle Gomez would have been a fab guest in the last half of this though.

    #48795
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @supernumery, @pedant, @jimthefish-

    I don’t think Gallafray is quite ‘back’- though it can clearly be reached, and left- I have to admit I do hope they keep it to a minimum. I was watching some old Who episodes earlier, and decided I’m not a huge fan of the timelords on screen. Is the Doctor still president, though, or has he lost that for being, well, himself? (And you’d think they’d have known by now…) that would make him president of Earth and of Gallifray…

    But I think what we saw here was a broader view of the planet then just the elite. And the ordinary people seemed quite lovely. If the war doctor/hero turns up, to the possible wrath of the ruling elite, having just punched his way out of purgatory, what do you do? You make him some soup, of course.

    I liked the regeneration, but I didn’t like the male ego comment. Jokes like that slightly diminish both sexes in my opinion. I’m quite happy to see women in military and political roles without having to imply that there are somehow better at them…

    #48796
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @tardigrade- he asked ‘how many regenerations’. The man said ten. Therefore, not fatal.

    #48797
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @tardisgrae- agree that the diner scenes were lovely.

    And I think only the most churlish of fans could object to the guitar now.

    #48798
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    I thought the episode was good. All the callouts to the old Doctor’s like the Type 40 console. I would rather like a spinoff series (like torchwood) With Me and Clara (like @pedant mention) but if Jenny were to come aswell it would be rather brilliant (like @rob said). I do believe the ending was very good with the ‘run you clever boy’ that was missing from Face the Raven and the new sonic screwdriver. Overall it was a good episode with lots of potential for recurring themes and the ending was very good but in my opinion I don’t believe that it was the ending S9  deserved because of they high quality of all the episodes this series. (But hey ho I’ve only watched it once I could change my mind after a re-watch)

    As soon as the impossible girl tab for guitar goes online I’m learning it 🙂

    #48799
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    @countscarlioni

    Companion hardly does the job for her place in the Doctor’s history.

    I think this quote sums up everything you’ve said.

    #48800
    django @django

    Well, that was a bit of a low key ending. Whilst I found it enjoyable, I was hoping for a high octane ending and what we got was a bit of a damp squib. The Doctor arrived, hung around a bit and the story ended. After such a good series, I found this all very anti-climactic. I’m glad there are people out there who have enjoyed this, but for me this was my least favourite of the season.

    #48801
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @starla

    Hmm… maybe the Doctor was the president’s father? Or father-in-law?

    Haha- as the president was Rassilon in the time of the 1st Doctor (which seems to be the time period referenced) that would be a big call if he were Rassilon’s father (since he’s as old as the time lord civilisation). Father-in-law would make for some interesting possibilities though…

    If you go later, then the 4th Doctor was president for a time. I assume him running off with his own daughter wouldn’t have been particularly noteworthy though. He did run off with Romana for a bit, so perhaps she was an illegitimate daughter he didn’t know about at the time :-). Better be careful with those sort of rumours though- you know how those time lords gossip…

    @phaseshift

    Ah, that old TARDIS. With a dodgy chameleon circuit. My headcanon now reads that they stole a museum piece type forty. After countless Adventures with Me she drops it off on Gallifrey, in the past and recommends it to Doctor one. “It’s navigation is knackered, but it’ll give you a lot of fun”. Two careful owners. Stolen as seen. No returns.

    Love the idea it might be the same tardis. If not then perhaps the chameleon circuit sticking was a general problem with that model?

    @miapatrick

    he asked ‘how many regenerations’. The man said ten. Therefore, not fatal.

    Thanks- that’s cleared that up for me. He answered “tenth”. The ABC subtitles transcribed it as “death”, which I assumed meant he had no regenerations left. Hence my surprise at the Doctor pulling the trigger, and him (now her) getting pretty much straight back up. I liked the general’s character so didn’t really want to see him die/regenerate- the new regeneration looks like she’ll be good value too though, if a returning character.

    #48802
    DoctorDoctorWho @doctordoctorwho

    I remember somewhere Steven Moffat teased a big, controversial change to the mythos would occur in this episode…what was it?

    #48803
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @tardisgrade- oh right, I was confused as to why you’d think that. That’s dreadful! BBC subtitles translated it as tenth, but then, they have the script I suppose.

    One thing though- what if he had said ‘twelth’? I don’t think the doctor would have shot him. Was he that keen to get back into a female body?

    #48804
    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @miapatrick

    oh right, I was confused as to why you’d think that. That’s dreadful! BBC subtitles translated it as tenth, but then, they have the script I suppose.

    One thing though- what if he had said ‘twelth’? I don’t think the doctor would have shot him. Was he that keen to get back into a female body?

    I would have thought that when the BBC supplied the video, they’d supply the subtitles also- apparently not. I rationalised that he’d claimed he was on his last regeneration as his best chance not to be shot, but couldn’t then work out why the Doctor could cavalierly pull the trigger.

    #48805
    tommo @tommo

    the ‘run you clever boy, and remember me’ line has that much more poignancy now doesn’t it?

    also, i was loving the sheer amount of whoniverse referencing occuring in this episode. another one i have just recalled is the ‘knock 4 times’ motif from the 10th’s tenure. “they always knock four times” – excellent.

    #48806
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I read tons of spoilers and still Moffat exceeded all my expectations.  Well done!

    There was no choice but for the memory of Clara to be erased from the Doctor, because as Missy plainly said, and I have speculated,  in Death in Heaven, Clara was created to be an earworm for the Doctor, to obsess him.

    And just like I speculated the hybrid was the joining of the spirit, the experiences, of the Doctor and Clara.  That combination was going to threaten the whole of space and time.  Ironically once again Clara saved space and time by reversing the polarity.  Finally we see the return of Clara the hacker that had been missing this entire season.

    And like I speculated, where else could Gallifrey hide but a lot further along the end of time to where their enemies had died off or at least dissipated.

    Rassilon is a very old man.  Obviously the exile will kill him and he will be reborn anew as … well, that’s for the next seasons.  🙂

    #48807
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Oh and I really do think the Doctor has unleashed his greatest and most deadly enemy in Rassilon, especially when Rassilon regenerates into a much younger and more energetic form.  If the Doctor thinks he has no limits, what about the tricks known by one of the co-founders of the Time Lords himself.

    I think we are headed way back in time to revisit some of the Doctor’s youth, possibly in Moffat’s reign.  Because Rassilon may or may not be able to change certain fixed points, but he can between the fixed points unleash some more hell on the Doctor.

    #48808
    Anonymous @

    @rob evenin’ to your mornin’

    This is the awesomist theory posited: in fact it’s so right. She’s still doing the stuff she’s always done and it also explains the Gold Glow you good people saw Also many said she’d end up on Gallifrey! Well done:

    “…in She jumped into his time-stream, past and future to frustrate the GI, who just as obviously will have been pushing the Doctor towards failure at each point too another never ending Time War in a Tardis…. So War Doctor on Gallifrey, exiles Rassilon causes chaos, uses a gun all equals GI upper hand in making naughtyness. Then Clara appears, the War/12 hybrid Doctor knows he needs her to become ‘The Doctor’ once more and combat the ever present but usually controlled Oncoming Storm/Predator. Clara once again saves the Doctor but both know that (and so do we if we actually think about it) Clara and the Claracles have to remain hints and nudges and stories …”

    Awesome @rob and @pedant your call also. 🙂

    @django that’s totally alright. I think Mum also said that it wasn’t going to be to everyone’s tastes but it’s terrific you liked the season as a whole with its arc.

    @sirclockface I hope you do learn that. If Mum was up to it she’d send you the chords but likely they’d be all muddled up at the moment!! And yes, there was that “run you clever boy” on the board and it wasn’t in Face the Raven even though she died to save the Doctor (again) but this time, in Heaven Sent the Doctor died over and over to save his Clara. -I like that lovely picture, btw.

    @miapatrick I didn’t notice that below. I should do a re-watch. Yes you’re right:

    I liked the regeneration, but I didn’t like the male ego comment

    @tardigrade Yes, we didn’t understand that: about what Clara’s condition is now?  So she isn’t an immortal -she’s something else? And she could easily be hurt or even die: She’s immortal in the sense of unageing- but…she .. can’t heal,…”

    But in a way, this is the weird hybrid: the Doctor who ran and the special human for whom he died a billion deaths chosen by Missy.

    I really also liked what you said about the new prophecy #48787 -the idea that the future can be re-written and that it’s the cloister ghosts who actually deliver prophecies via some algorhythms and that maybe the Doctor when he was ‘young’ heard this and ran away -those prophecies whispered by the wraiths scared him.

    What I think is great is that everything is coming full circle. Hartnell left and now the ‘new’  TL with another set of regenerations has left too. That makes perfect sense.

    The Sisters of Karn were there as independent witnesses making sure the Doctor would be alright this time -perhaps because Rassilon the Resurrected had the wrong attitude saying Gallifrey was “his” and the Sisters wanted him to be brought to account. Also they want to stop the Dr being cruel or leaving.

    Thankyou for everybody contributing their wonderful theories. Soon we will hear from our friends in NZ, Canada and America.

    Son of P

    #48809
    Mirime @mirime

    Well. Best finale ever? Maybe.

    Thoughts…

    I still think Missy contacted Ashildr/Me at some point, though that’s been left open to interpretation.

    Have we just been ‘Osgooded’ over if the Doctor is half human or not?

    Will need to watch again but did the Doctor imply he’d always known he was in the Confession Dial?

    Can Clara still be Orson’s great grandmother? That’s a bit Fahrenheit! (Video game, also known as Indigo Prophecy. Main character dies, gets brought back by magic, impregnates woman despite not breathing etc. Good game, though it takes a weird turn. eta – just to be clear the weirdness isn’t the dead person getting someone pregnant.)

    Tardis stuck as a diner – seems very Douglas Adams. But then every time a perception filter is mentioned or other ways of hiding things in plain sight, I automatically think “Somebody Else’s Problem field.”

    I absolutely love Peter Capaldi. No doubt about it, he is my favourite Doctor and, IMHO,  this has been the best series of AG Who.

    And *eek* old style Tardis interior. Loved it.

    #48810

    @puroandson

     (but I’m 14 and may have missed a lot)

    More like 14 and not weighed down by a load of historical cruft.

    #48811
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    you had a Tardis full of speculations. You speculated about everything all of the time. 🙂 So you had to be right some of those, right? 😈

    But, well done. (I mean I couldn’t remember them and my own theories are as bad as mums -I think she had one & it didn’t pan out all that much so you did some for her, in a way!! Yay!)

    Thankyou,
    son of puro

    #48812
    Agurk @agurk

    Has anyone considered the appearence of the Dalek that said “Exterminate … me.” It looks quite similar to “Clara” in “Asylum of the Daleks.”

    Could there maybe be a connection? If in fact it’s the same Dalek, then who is it referring to? Ashildr or Clara?
    I know that this sounds really conspiracy like, but nomatter what. It could really be genoius move to be used in the future.

    #48813
    Anonymous @

    @tommo

    Oh I missed that stuff! The 4 times thing is a tennant thing? OK. I was about 10 or younger with Tennant and there is a lot  that I’ve missed. I actually connected it to Orson at the end of time.

    Thankyou

    #48814
    Anonymous @

    @avaris Just young Son of Puro here. I would think that in answer to some of your questions we can say that Clara did face death and wanted to -and still will. Her death is waiting. To me the loss of the Doctor’s memories of her is a “fate worse than death”

    She is impossible because she kept reappearing and she did that by stepping into the Doctor’s timestream -that hasn’t changed I don’ t think.  Missy chose her because she is the creator of chaos and knew that the Doctor would suffer thru billions of years for this Clara to open up the position of the TLs. I would also think that Clara is just Clara -a closed loop maybe (or maybe not) as we can posit that Clara being Oswin and saving the Doctor did so with the GI during that time line and definitely had a pulse then but not now. So, it’s two different times -one jumping into the timestreams and another with Ashildr. But its always the same claricle. I don’t think I’m explaining myself very well. I should leave that to someone better. 🙂

    Thankyou  and off to bed. Everyone else is still asleep.

    Son of P

    #48815
    AlexWho @alexwho

    A great way to end a strong series of episodes (except Sleep No More). As everything with WHO there are a lot of unanswerd questions to debate about.

    If Capaldi hasn’t won you over by now then theres no performance he can give that will do it.

    Curious to see what Rassilon will do to get back at the Doctor for exiling him.

    #48816
    DoctorDalek17 @doctordalek17

    @pedant

    I agree they should make a spin-off series staring Clara and Me. I think the series should intervene with the Doctors life.

    #48817
    toinfinityandbepond @toinfinityandbepond

    Thelma and Louise, In Space!

    Clara and Me’s Excellent Adventure

    Who Girls, One TARDIS

    #48818
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, finally got to see it. And it was definitely worth the wait. It was, indeed, brilliant. The ability of Steven Moffat to tell a tale is exceptional.

    And I thought the ending was just about perfect.

    The only thing I am still thinking through is: if the Doctor did not know where Gallifrey was, how did the Sisterhood of Karn know, and how did they get there?

    Now off to read the comments.

    #48819
    nerys @nerys

    I definitely must watch this one again, but it will be after this afternoon’s hand bell concert. I need to prepare for that, and hopefully not make too many mistakes. Our last rehearsal was not as solid as I would’ve liked. Fingers crossed … er, uncrossed. Rather difficult to play hand bells that way!

    But a few thoughts: I wasn’t as emotionally satisfied by this episode as I was “Heaven Sent” … but another poster predicted that would be the case, that there would be a lot of explaining to do, so it would be more cerebral, less emotional. I was glad we got this last (?) round with Clara. And how amazing it has been to see Ashildr/Me grow over the few episodes we’ve seen her in. Great acting by Maisie Williams.

    Who is the poster who predicted it would be the Doctor forgetting Clara? Bravo! You must be feeling quite chuffed about that.

    My husband, who has watched Doctor Who (starting with Before Gap episodes) far longer than I, happily recognized some of the old sounds in the new TARDIS.

    With Clara and Ashildr/Me, I was reminded of the emperor/shepherd’s boy parable the Doctor told us (slowly, very slowly) in “Heaven Sent”: And when the entire mountain is chiseled away, the first second of eternity will have passed. It’s as if they eking out an eternity within Clara’s last few seconds before facing the raven. I thought surely she would pay Danny Pink a visit, thus solving the Orson Pink riddle. Lots of dangling threads still left to tie up.

    And where was Missy? All episode long I was expecting her to turn up, but no. Maybe the Christmas special?

    #48820
    Mudlark @mudlark

    This episode may not quite have reached the heights of Heaven Sent, but it wasn’t far behind, and very neatly packaged as a story, book-ended by the scenes in the diner where the Doctor tells it.

    The events of Face the Raven remain unchanged, and for her family, friends and the pupils at Coal Hill School Clara is and remains dead. But she, suspended indefinitely between life and death, between one heartbeat and the next, will have four and a half billion years to travel the universe with the immortal Me, returning the long way round to her final moment on Gallifrey.  She has lost the Doctor, except in memory, but she no longer needs his presence, since she can continue, Doctor-like, to experience the adventures which had come to be her chief reason for being. To me that seems a fitting way to round off her tale, and not the anti-climax that a literal resurrection would have been.

    Unlike Donna and the amnesia which wiped all recollection of the Doctor from her mind, the Doctor’s memory of Clara is not completely obliterated – he is a Time Lord whose memory does not work in the same way as that of a human, and presumably he had configured the neural block for a human brain; and how could he forget her entirely, when her myriad lives have been entangled in all of his?   So, although she may no longer be always and immediately in his mind, she lingers like a song or a story narrated by someone else and remembered, evoking a deep emotional resonance, but as something experienced at one remove; joy and sorrow recalled in tranquillity. It is an elegiac conclusion.

    When he enters the diner he does not recognise her; does not *see* her, but by the end he cannot fail to have realised who she was, even if he did not acknowledge the fact. In her conversation with him she gave him enough prompts and clues for him to work it out and, if that were not enough, he could hardly fail to realise the significance of the diner dematerialising around him. This was her last gift to him.  After that there was his Tardis with her image painted on it, and who else but she could have brought it from London to the desert?*  But when he leaves in the Tardis, the last we see of it is Rigsy’s painted memorial with the portrait of Clara flaking away, and the fragments scattered to the winds.

    As for the story itself, the Doctor goes to the barn, to the scene where, unknown to him, his had his very first encounter with Clara and where a woman still keeps a bed in the hayloft as a refuge for boys should they need it; returning, as Ohila says, to the beginning.  And in what follows, all that is wrong with Gallifrey is revealed with great economy.  Despite his changed face he is recognised and welcomed by the ordinary people, because it was for them he saved the planet, and they know it. The Time Lords acknowledge him as the one who ended the Time War, but for the General and the soldiers he is the war hero who fought, even though he fought unarmed. Even the half-crazed Rassilon has a moment of insight when he says of him, ‘Words are his weapons, when did they stop being ours?’ But for Rassilon he is the enemy of the established social order who must be destroyed, and he shows the values of his idea of social order in his contempt for those who are not Time Lords when he says  ‘… here in the dry lands, where there’s nobody who matters: no witnesses’.

    The Doctor emerges from the barn looking very like Gary Cooper as the Marshal in High Noon, grim faced and implacable, to face the necessary show-down, one to one, with his enemy, and the enemy is forced in the end to come at his bidding. The Western film references are unmistakeable, seen also in the line in the sand (the legend of the Alamo?) and in the music.  And when all is over he leaves the Time Lords with a chance of something like a fresh start, with Rassilon banished and the General regenerated, now at one remove from the Time War and less scarred by it, and with at least the possibility that lessons have been learned.  If so he will have achieved more than his primary purposes of personal revenge and the saving of Clara; and though in seeking those ends he may, as Ohila says, have broken every rule he lived by, the means may have at least in part been justified by the result.

    It is to be hoped that the Time Lords are content to remain in the far future and to refrain from meddling in the affairs of the rest of the universe. On the other hand, while an exiled Rassilon without a Tardis would be rendered fairly harmless, a vengeful Rassilon with a Tardis provides great potential for future stories. He might even team up with Missy, if she were ever to see a way of using him for her own ends.

     

    *Well, Missy, I suppose, but it is hardly her style.

    #48821
    Ozitenor @ozitenor

    To clarify (ha, pun intended) one little thing some posters have been worried about; that Clara is immortal now, but susceptible to death, injury etc. unlike ‘Me’. – I don’t think she is. CapDoc said the processes of her body have been time-looped (but she still moves around like normal due to Time Lord cleverness). So, any injury to her would not need to heal, she would just immediately loop back to that same body state one heart beat from death, as her body functions are constantly in that time-loop….   she is, essentially, a perfect immortal now. Unless, I suppose, she unravels the fabric of space and time by her avoidance to finally Face the Raven.

    (Edit: similar to Capt. Jack I think, as he always returns to being alive due to the Bad Wolf regen juice glitch he absorbed)

    #48822
    DoctorDalek17 @doctordalek17

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I think since the sisterhood of Khan knows a lot about timelords and even can force regeneration on one I personally believe they just know where timelords are when they are in the universe… if that makes any sense

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