On The Sofa (6)

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    ichabod @ichabod

    @grammargeek1002  Hi!  Love the pics, looks like a lot of fun!  How do you present the idea to guests who aren’t familiar with DW?

    @serahni  Pratchett is special; I like Vimes, and Vetinari of course, and the witches and their adventures.

    Anonymous @

    @ichabod Continuing on….. from Last Christmas and your comments re: Health, Happiness and Hell.

    Frankly it sounds very difficult and you seem to be taking things….well? Would that be fair to say?

    Feel free to round house a punch if my estimation is off, but if you’re talking about it, then it’s better than the opposite?

    Of course I should have known you were from the States. This happens to me all the time. Usually I make some candid comment about American Politics and pretty soon I get slapped because the person I’ve been chatting to is both a Republican and hasn’t been out of The States in whenever. I assume things and you know what they say…’To assume makes an ass out of you and me’. I hear this statement one more time from my superior officers and someone is gonna get their….well, anyway….

    I’m glad you found this Forum. The music thread is hugely fun  and related/or not TV series topics are pretty inclusive. So positive points all.

    I certainly hope your year is a good one. Sounds like you need it. ‘Hope’: a miserable word, really. ‘Wish’ is better. I wish 2015 is an improved model on the old.

    Kindest, puro.

    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    Oh @ichabod, that sounds so hard, there isn’t going to be an easy way to do that. But as puro says you are here, and that’s no bad thing. Displacement activities (fair?) are absolutely necessary, can turn into useful and interesting interactions, and help us heal. Sometimes the crazy brain just needs pandered to for however long it needs, and no better place than this. I am clearly not alone in thinking this place is more be beautiful yet for your presence. Oscurritantes shall prevail, lugging around the massive sacks of unresolved loose ends.

    Probably dropping off the surface of the forum for a few days: having a visit from a very dear friendwho has been badgering me to watch Who for years, but is a Tennant/Osgood groupie who is as yet “unconvinced” by season 8. What’s a girl to do?!? Have fun all.

    lisa @lisa

    So to start off this new year I’d like to share my favorite esoteric monk speaking about
    ‘spirituality’ of space – he is always fun and always has some good ideas to share
    This 1 is about taking the spacious view … [but not space aliens]
    just an interesting perspective

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    <Arrives on the sofa for a quick fishy cuppa>

    And to note that, apparently Capaldi’s Who has not been nominated in the National Television Awards


    His performance is by far the most supple and subtle of the new doctors. Bless his grouchy eyebrows.

    Craig @craig

    Apologies for being a bit absent over the last few weeks but was a bit frazzled and needed some time off. Start of the year hasn’t helped much either.

    As for next week’s installment of BG Who I was wondering, as we’ve done a bit of 7, a chance to discuss the only ever story re 8 might be appropriate. Yes, The Movie! I know we did discuss it in one of our threads – “Faces of The Doctor” (I think) – but we’ve had a few new members since then.

    Another option is to go back to One and start again. In which case The Daleks may be a possible (and of course desirable) choice or The Aztecs is another possibility.

    Any thoughts?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    It’s not now the only ever TV story. I suggest we discuss The Night of The Doctor. Okay, I know it’s not technically BG, but we could discuss if it’s deliberately written as a BG/AG link.

    If we must do That Movie again, could we at least also do Crimson Horror and Nightmare in Silver? Then discuss which episode is representing the movie period – the one where the Doctor is dipped in plastic or the one where he’s been taken over by the Cybermen? 👿

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish – Thanks for the Graun link to the National TV awards. That’s outrageous Capaldi’s not been shortlisted! Any one of his episodes could qualify, but his overall development/slow unveiling of the character throughout all of series 8 is deserving.

    Btw is anyone else having the same problem as I am unravelling the new Graun design?  Trying to keep up with new posts is worse than trying to unravel dream crab effects!

    Craig @craig

    @bluesqueakpip Ha, I knew it would be unpopular and obvs Night of the Doctor is better. It’s just I look at our Forum list page and there is no entry at all for poor Paul (every Doctor but Eight – and the War Doctor of course). I hope one day to correct that. I’ll keep trying.

    But for now we can go back again, if you like. It’s not like we don’t have about 30 odd years of episodes to go through before we get around to correcting the mistake.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @craig @bluesqueakpip

    I’d be happy to watch Night of the Doctor again. It’s not quite BG as you say, but it’s a better representation of what 8 was about, although McGann is eminently watchable in whatever he’s in!  And there’s probably as much to discuss in it as there is in the movie 😈

    @barbaralefty suggested Edge of Destruction for #1 which is shorter than the Daleks (although time isn’t really an issue at the moment 🙁 ) and for my mind is particularly interesting as it happens so early in the run, and is definitely a turn for the unexpected.

    We’ve done last episodes for each Doctor, have we done first ones? Tho that might be problematic for Troughton.

    Re Craig’s suggestion of the Aztecs – how about a retrospectiveof  historicals – how each Doctor period treated trips to the past?

    (@Craig -Hope your year gets better soon btw)

    lisa @lisa

    @craig and all – Wish there was more 8th Doctor but if we do Night of the Doctor then it maybe
    nice to first re-watch Brain of Morbius for the gang of ‘Cairn” ?
    I was thinking at some point of re-visiting all the Dalek episodes all in order or maybe
    all the Sontaran episodes or something like that but really need a ‘push’ to get going on it
    [or maybe I need a forum :} ]

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – the list of very fine actors who also didn’t make the shortlist from the longlist includes Sir Derek Jacobi, Anne Reid, Keeley Hawes for her stunning turn in Line of Duty…

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Maybe so… “but the Doctor’s ALWAYS in it!” It’s the rule!! <stamps foot>


    Craig @craig

    @lisa I think it has been mentioned in the past that we could do a villains retrospective. It does appeal to me. Anyone else have any thoughts?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb True – but I think Capaldi was always running at a big disadvantage for this one. Voting opened when they were still only on Mummy on the Orient Express. And closed when they were still on Dark Water…

    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    @scaryb twas @janetteb suggested edge of destruction but wholeheartedly concur reading synopsis.

    ichabod @ichabod

    Capaldi “fails” to make NTA shortlist?  Au contraire, NTA shortlist “fails” to include his Doctor, is all.  Their problem, I would say . . . or rather, as has been pointed out above, a problem of timing, most likely.

    @purofilion — Thanks for good wishes; and yes, 2015 is starting off well reasonably well, so no punches due, pulled or otherwise.  Despite the obvious large sinkhole in my 2014, I’ve been extraordinarily lucky, really.  Certainly displacement activity has helped enormously.  And I found the Dalek dub-step clip, pretty cute!

    @barbaralefty — Have a good time beating our friend about the head and shoulders until he, she, or it concurs that our current Doctor is superb — and unexpectedly useful, come to think of it.  Somewhere in “The Bank Heist”, I think, there’s a shot of Clara walking across the scene with the Doctor a double-pace behind, both in profile, swinging along with an *almost* military matched stride.  That caught my attention, and thinking about it, I realized that g.d. it, *I* used to walk like that — everybody complainned and tell me to slow down.

    But I haven’t been doing that, not lately — partly energy lows, partly having fallen last spring and busted my right arm (tripped on a kitchen floor mat).  Thing is, over the age of — well, any age, probably — a fall like that leaves you walking differently.  For one thing you’re out of balance while your stupid arm is in a stupid sling for weeks, and you have to work to get balance and rhythm back.  For another, there’s a reason that so many old people walk with their heads down, curving and shortening their spines: they’re watching the ground, scared to fall and looking fearfully for tripping hazards.  I was doing that.

    And to hell with it.  I walk for bone density etc., and I want my stride back — but didn’t realize it was gone, ’til I saw the two of them swinging along.  Working on it now.  Apparently the Doctor is not only in, but he can occasionally heal without an Rx or even a laying on of hands.

    Heh!  Just back from a walk, and feeling good tonight!

    janetteB @janetteb

    @craig my suggestion further up was a story, either first story or early in each regen”  which best reflects the Doctor in question lookign at how each actor approaches the role, how the character changes/develops and how it remains consistant. I would be happy to include a reconstruction for Troughton. I also thought that for Doctor 8 we could discuss one of the Big Finish productions and the minosode. (The film just doesn’t do Paul McGann justice IMHO) This of course would span both BG and AG who.

    I also really like the idea of doing a villains retrospective and others suggested doing a Peter Capaldi retrospective which could be a done as well and include some really fun stuff from the wonderful “Local Hero” onwards.

    Sorry to hear that you have been having a not so wonderful time. Hope things are looking up. Was wondering where you were but you were just off and about on hols. (guess it isn’t “off and about” season over there. In Oz anytime of year is a good time for holidays)




    CedarBranchTardis @cedarbranchtardis

    I’m feeling kinda dizzy, when you start researching The Doctor and his friends and companions, you go around it circles, it seems. Must be a timey-wimey thing. Took me a little while to realize he went to see Rose Tyler before he met her in “The End of Time”. I also didn’t realize that Martha Jones married Mickey Smith. When you research these things on the internet, your head starts to spin.

    To those of you new to Dr. Who, be warned, you will get lost/confused/not sure of what century you actually live, ENJOY!

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Russell T talks Capaldi


    and his new drama Cucumber, Banana, Tofu 🙂

    It seems the US didn’t really work out. I’m glad to have him back.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @pedant Love the Dr Who tube map – that’s a work of beauty and genius!

    @CedarBranchTardi haha It’s not just Time that’s a a “big ball of timey wimey wibbly wobbly… stuff” – unpicking Dr Who (esp SM’s plots) is likely to turn your brain into the same 😀

    @juniperfish Thanks for the link. Nice to see RTD back and working again. I believe he gave everything up to care for his partner who was seriously ill.  (Don’t know how that worked out). It’s almost unbelievable it’s 10 years since he brought our fav show back on the airwaves. Shame he gets so much stick, we owe him a huge amount, and he’s usually very generous speaking about other people. His comments about PC are funny. (Have you read A Writer’s Tale btw? (Diaries about putting together Dr Who. It’s very funny, and insightful. Recommended)).

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    you will get lost/confused/not sure of what century you actually live,

    A quick check I’ve always found useful (and one they could probably have done with in Last Christmas) is to ask myself ‘in which reality do I have to pay the gas bill?’

    Sadly, that usually turns out to be the right one. 😀

    CedarBranchTardis @cedarbranchtardis

    Blue, you got that right, all I have to do is walk to the mailbox and pull out the bills and reality happens. 🙂

    janetteB @janetteb

    Thanks for the link @juniperfish. Nice to know that RTD still watches the show “religiously”. Now he is back in the UK maybe he will pen an episode or two.



    ichabod @ichabod

    @jametteB — Now, that would be interesting — letter campaign?  “Dear RTD, please, come on, tell us a story!”

    janetteB @janetteb

    @ichabod He and Moffat are clearly good friends and I believe that they have discussed it in the past so I would not be surprised just as long as SM doesn’t ask him to write the series finales. RTD penned some brilliant episodes and some real dross too. I think as an occasional writer he would really be able to shine.



    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I find myself with two days off, at home, with the wind howling, and an alcoholic beverage on standby. Pure luxury, Ladies and Gentlemen.

    Mind, it’s probably going to take that long to work my way through all the posts since Christmas.

    Some nourishing food before I dive into your thoughts, I think.

    Craig @craig

    @All, and especially for their nominations @bluesqueakpip @scaryb @janetteb @barbaralefty @blenkinsopthebrave and others I may have missed.

    Everything is still up in the air as to what to discuss over the coming weeks, and I haven’t had time to give it much thought – hopefully can now. Think I will now have more time on here, back into a routine, which is nice 😀

    Looking back over the discussion highlighted by @janetteb above there are a lot of options.

    “The Edge of Destruction”, “Gunfighters”, A Peter Capaldi ‘Who Universe’ retrospective (that also includes Local Hero, The Crow Road and maybe a bit of Malcolm Tucker) and the “Lost in Time” DVD.

    I may have missed a few. Apologies if I have.

    Votes are now open and will close on Sunday morning – so I can post something on Sunday afternoon.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    “Edge of Destruction” definitely, as it gives an insight into the development of the characters when the show was in its infancy. In a way, all of s8 has been similar, given the huge change to the Doctor that Capaldi brings with him. This gets my vote.

    “Gunfighters”? I love Hartnell, but for people who have seen very little Hartnell, this is not really the best place to start.

    For real Hartnell and Troughton revelations, I encourage people to consider some of the episodes from the “Lost in Time” dvd. They are only surviving episodes of lost stories, but there are some real wonders in there, particularly as very few people have seen them. This gets my vote.

    Who-related Capaldi is awfully fresh in the memory, but I would be interested to see “The Crow Road”.


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @craig and @blenkinsopthebrave

    The reason The Gunfighters was suggested was because if you bought The Awakening (which we rewatched last time in the Peter Davison slot), The Gunfighters came with it. Why, nobody knows. But that means I now have a copy of The Gunfighters, together with anyone else who had to buy the DVD of The Awakening. 😉

    Edge of Destruction, strangely, is actually cheaper if you buy The Beginning box set (which is currently cheaper still if you go to the BBC Shop). Great set; it has An Unearthly Child, The Daleks, and Edge of Destruction.

    From my point of view: whichever. I have both. 😀

    I wouldn’t say that the ‘Lost in Time’ DVD, with its one or two episodes from lost stories, is a good place to start, a good introduction, or anything but an add-on to other (complete) stories. I well remember watching Episode 3 of Enemy of the World as a young(ish) fan and not thinking much of it. When the entire story was finally restored, it was a revelation.

    I have noticed that a few people on the Deep Breath and Last Christmas threads are already considering a rewatch of Series 8.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    I can take or leave early Who to be honest but it could provide an interesting perspective.

    I like the idea of doing the Capaldi overview though. Would love to do The Crow Road and others. But we’ve gotta have some Tucker in there.

    Did someone mention doing a villains retrospective? That could be interesting.

    Or how about a multi-Doctor retrospective — discuss how Doctors bounce off each other. That would mean the Three, Five and Two Doctors, as well as The Day of the Doctor (too soon maybe?) and The Six and a bit Doctors reboot.

    But really happy to dive into whatever is decided….

    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish I’m with you on Crow Road. Also, the other night I recall someone mentioning a villain’s perspective? I thought it was @janetteb

    @bluesqueakpip I have the DVD box set to which you refer and I second that it’s cheaper in Oz in that format. It might be different in the US and Canada, however.


    So, a Capaldi retro and Edge of Destruction is my vote but I’d be happy to go forward with any & all.

    @phaseshift  sounds like the busy has quietened down -except for howling winds?  There are a lot of posts to catch up on. A very interesting discussion about how LC ties in with the PC regen, the nature of hugs (from Deep Breath by @ichabod), the spectacular timey whimey-ness (@Barnable @spider and Bluesqueakpip), Frost’s depiction of Santa and Hands on Knees. Much of interest.

    Regards, puro.

    Whisht @whisht


    ok, I’ll through mine in the ring (is that even an expression? Did anyone do it?).

    I think the ‘villains retrospective’ sounds inspired. Maybe the Master is a bit fresh in the mind but I’m really thinking Davros. Mainly as Julian Bleach (in my rose-tinted memory) was so… memorable. But so is the Davros from Baker era.

    Comparing Mondas Cybermen to recent stompy versions, or how Sontarans went from scary to comedic (due to one Dan Starkey?) might be interesting. maybe

    As for a Capaldi retrospective – well its interesting work that he’s done, so no bad thing (and I’ll learn some more stuff about acting and writing and acting).

    Early Who? If its the ‘interesting’ or ‘important’ episodes then I’m in!

    janetteB @janetteb

    Sorry to do this as it is getting rather crowded in that metaphorical ring right now but I have another metaphorical hat to toss in.

    On reading the discussion over on the Last Christmas thread it occurred to me that we might do a Doctor/Companion themed re watch. This could include “Edge of Destruction” as that really focusses upon the Doctor’s developing relationship with his “team” and is really setting the foundations for all future regenerations and companions. For second Doctor it would be any Doctor/Jamie story so that is easy. I am happy to watch a recon. Third Doctor would be with Jo, Baker needs two, one with SArah Jane and one with Romana, (but hey is it possible to have too much Baker?) and we could watch the Baker recon’ Shada. Not sure there were any remarkable pairings during the time of 5 and 6 so we could jump straight to 7 and ACe then 8, the minisode which depicts a pairing that doesn’t happen but there is still a lovely, albiet brief dynamic there, or we could discuss one of the radio productions. Then TEnnant/Donna, Eleven?Amy&Rory  and of course Twelve/Clara. I suppose we would have to have a Nine/Rose too.

    I think we should do the Capaldi retrospective as a secondary watch thing. (We had two on the go last year.) I think we are up to sustaining two conversations at once. 🙂

    So many good ideas that I suggest whatever we don’t run with this year get’s put on hold till next.



    janetteB @janetteb

    On thinking about it I was rather too begrudging about nine and Rose. I think it would be interesting to look at how the Companion changed in the reboot to someone with a family, boyfriend and background so would need to be an early episode with Jackie and Mickey, maybe the one where she returns and a year has passed. (I have forgotten just which story that is but the scene of her and the doctor sitting on the roof when she realises his age I can ‘see”. Funny what sticks and what goes.)



    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    Hey, tuppence.

    As I’m deep in my Doctor Who (re)discovery phase I am still most interested in classic or Nu episodes which inform about the Doctor’s character/where we are now so I’m going with @janetteb, @blenkinsopthebrave on ‘Edge of Destruction’, ‘Lost in Time’ sounds interesting, as does anything else which gets you that extra insight/development of any given regeneration, so one for Pertwee, Baker etc too. Also like @janettes similar Companion relationship examination and if possible, both.

    Happy enough to do a Capaldi retro and I know I’d enjoy watching ‘Crow Road’, I’m trying to rehabilitate myself for British politics so while I love Thick of It, not sure it is a priority rewatch for me.

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Anyone else been wondering what Matt Smith has been up to since he left Who?

    Well apparently the Hollywood powers that be are re-making the Terminator franchise, with Arnie still involved (why, Hollywood, why can’t you stop regurgitating things and make something new) – anyway, Smithy has a part…


    Craig @craig

    Hi @all As ‘The Edge of Destruction’ is good, is short and no one was objecting to it, I’ve gone for that this week. You can find and enjoy it here:


    Next week I shall be mostly being less busy!

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Ahh, I’m so behind on here, but enjoyed catching up with all the Buffy, and other, posts. Was just logging in to add my vote (again!) to the Edge of Destruction vote… then find it’s up already. Woohoo! Thank you @craig. It’s important to remember this was just the 3rd Dr Who story ever – and it consolidated the idea that the show could do anything with the format. It blew my little brains at the time… there again it’s been 50 years since I’ve seen it, so will be interesting to rewatch.

    A PC retrospective is also a great idea.  I also like the idea of a “villain’s retrospective” – just that there’s an awful lot of them to chose from.

    Funnily enough I was channel surfing the other day and came across an episode of Minder, from 1979, which had a familiar looking face in it – took me a few minutes to click… (PC looks about 12 here!!). Not many people got the better of Arthur Daly 🙂

    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish thank you for that link. I made the mistake of reading a comment below which typically trolled about “Dr who is the worst show played by the worst actor in the worst bla bla”. Cripes. Anyway, he was told. But not by me. No sir, not gonna engage!

    I had forgotten about Smith in that Gosling film?  Don’t know anything about it at all but the Terminator? Mmm.

    @scaryb  very cool pic. I like the jacket. And the hair. I wanted hair like that.


    Had not seen this before. Jenna Coleman is an ambassador for One-To-One, a charity that helps HIV victims in Africa. Via kasterbourous.com

    Brewski @brewski

    Hello Gang!

    First time in the sofa (and I must say it’s quite comfy). I had a mild brain aneurysm of an idea and thought I’d inflict it on you, if I may.

    Would anyone like to see a multi-Doctor episode where both Doctors were Capaldi?!

    After all, if he was going to meet himself in another time, who says it HAS to be a previous regeneration?

    P.S. Retro TV just played Brain of Morbius, so I’d be al for including that in a discussion.

    ichabod @ichabod


    My hand is up!  Thank you for your aneurism! I was thinking about the end of Season 8 + Xmas; maybe we could have a story, late in Season 9, in which the Doctor flat-out loses Clara, totally and forever, and goes as dark as it gets.  I was thinking what if MissyMaster somehow obliterated Clara and inserted *herself* into the Doctor’s timeline in Clara’s place, saving the Doctor with much snap and much smug and snarly snark, so he cracks and kills her dead as a doornail — murder, bloody-handed.  Thereupon he descends into a fugue of fury, busting up time all over the place (well, he’s a Time Lord, right?), until enemies and friends have to pull together to find Gallifrey and persuade the Time Lords to assemble a new Valeyard, in appearance CapDoc’s double, to give our guy a formidable enemy to do battle with — in the course of which *one* of them finds his heroic and good-hearted core again and returns to clean up his mess do his vast and necessary grieving decently and quietly, like a man.

    Or they could fetch an un-crazy CapDoc from an alternate universe to come put a stop to my crazed CapDoc’s rampage.  I’m thinking of a play I saw ages ago called “Cloud 9”, I think, in which the deeply conflicted protagonist, a dark-skinned man taken in and seduced by British colonizers, ends the story by embracing (accepting, loving to death) his weak, treacherous, shadow-self.  It’s not a new idea by any means in fictions of all kinds, but done well, it can be utterly killer, in a good way.  As in, I saw that play a good 20+ yrs ago, and have not forgotten.  And that’s *me*, who forgets everything . . .

    I mean, if you want dark, what’s darker than the Doctor’s darkest, most passionately torn-up self?  What Puccini (I think) said (and he sure knew) was the heart of great opera: “Torture the heroine!”  Writers know this; it’s our guilty, S/M secret (Hamlet, anyone?).  Take away his Clara, his second heart, and let him fight his way back — past his own worst enemy — to a life worth living, if he can.


    ichabod @ichabod

    On the other hand — I haven’t seen all of Who, and they’ve probably already done this, in several different ways, with different Doctors . . . but gently.  It’s “family viewing” . . . and if kids still hide behind the sofa, it shouldn’t be the Doctor they’re hiding from . . .

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    It’s been done – most recently with Waters of Mars. However, ‘very dark Doctor’ is now considered the kind of story you can only tell just before regeneration.

    They tried it just after regeneration with Colin Baker; it didn’t go well. They also tried it, to some extent, in Deep Breath (where the Doctor appears to have momentarily abandoned Clara). That they carefully established by the end of Deep Breath that the Doctor does have Clara’s back shows how much they learnt from the Baker 2 problems.

    Trot over to the Edge of Destruction comments for some insight into the darker character of the First Doctor. At that point, Ian and Barbara were the ‘hero’ characters; the Doctor as hero was a slow development throughout Hartnell’s tenure. Personally, I’d say that Ian and Barbara taught him how to be a good man and that part of the Capaldi Doctor’s uncertainty is that he knows that he isn’t ‘good’ by nature.

    Brewski @brewski

    Whew! Wow. 🙂  I was thinking way more old school multi-Doctor.  You know, where they just annoy one another.


    I thought what would be a cool twist would be the fact that CapDoc explicitly states that he hates himself, so who better to have to work with than himself?

    And then ultimately decide “Hey that guy’s not so bad after all”

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @brewski – as a variation on Capaldi Doctor meeting himself, I’d like him to meet Caecilius again.

    The rediscovered Troughton, The Enemy of the World, has a ‘Doctor meeting his double’ plot.

    Brewski @brewski

    @bluesqueakpip Funny I thought about that exact same thing right after I hit Submit.

    Same goes for Matt Smith as Mr. Clever in NIghtmare in Silver.

    But… in those cases it’s same-actor-different-character.  I think it would be a different dynamic.

    Totally agree on wanting to see 12 meeting Caecilius.  Unfortunately I doubt it will happen.

    LividLiquid @lividliquid

    I’d imagine the venn diagram of people who would enjoy this video doesn’t overlap much these days, but here goes nothing:

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