On the Sofa (part 2)

[Whisht @whisht]

jeezus – she’s given birth to a Sontaran!!

That’s amazing!!

.

.

.

I thought they were mass produced in gene-splicing hatcheries.

[Anonymous @]

@whisht —

I hope Strax has got a suitable alibi….

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@whisht & @jimthefish    Like peas in a pod…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@MadScientist72 I think that last theory is worthy of a jammy dodger award for sheer bonkerness. I am still trying to unscramble my brain with a little help from strax baby.

@wolfweed, the likeness is remarkable.

Cheers

Janette

[ScaryB @scaryb]

What’s our Saturday 5.30 viewing for this week btw, now that the wonderful Talons is finished?

A couple of people have suggested Caves of Androzani… that’d get my vote just cos I’ve got it on DVD 🙂 but open to the majority vote. The TV Movie’s also been mentioned… <small shudder 😉 >

[ScaryB @scaryb]

PS 😆 @jimthefish and @wolfweed

Don’t worry – plans are already in place to break you both out of the Tower of London when the authorities catch up with you! Kate L-S says she’ll help!!

[Nick @nick]

@scaryb @jimthefish

It might be rather amusing to watch the Daleks (if you can stand black & white) given than JimTheFish is busy reimagining it.

Nick

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb — my vote is still for Ghostlight, arguing that it’s the perfect example of the emerging themes of Nu Who. To me, it makes more sense to watch that before going on to the TV Movie (small shudder (TM))

[ScaryB @scaryb]

OK, Ghostlight‘s fine with me – actually I don’t think I’ve ever seen it.  Maybe easier for AG fans, since as @jimthefish says there are similarities to BG Who in the treatment; And you’re right – if we MUST do the movie (and I suppose we should) we should probably watch something from the series immediately before it. McCoy and McGann are worth a watch for themelves tho.

@nick Is The Daleks serial complete or is it reconstructed do you know? (You should plot a viewing route through all the dalek stories, for the future 😉 )

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

I’d enjoy rewatching Ghost Light as well. Apart from anything else, it was the final Before Gap Who shot, even though Survival was the final one screened.

It’s also the first story in the ‘Ace trilogy’, so it does make a very nice bridging story between BG and AG – contrary to the ideas of many fans stuck in the Tom Baker era, AG Who is a true continuation rather than a complete re-imagining. Ghostlight is one of the stories where you can see the roots of AG Who.

If we want to tackle things more slowly (we’ve got until November, after all), Caves of Androzani? That would show the Davison era. And the people who never saw Colin Baker might get some idea from the regeneration scene of exactly why the Sixth Doctor is regarded with such loathing… 😈

[Nick @nick]

@scaryb

No its complete although I think they did a few things to reconstruct it completely from various sources they had. The Dalek Invasion of Earth is the only other pre-Pertwee Dalek story that is.

Nick

[Nick @nick]

@scaryb

Talking of Daleks, Spike Milligan wrote several sketches with them in his Q series. I found this on youtube, but I remember seeing older (and funnier) clips as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOqhRx_11Rg

Nick

 

[Craig @craig Emperor]

From a quick search Ghost Light is certainly possible, as is Androzani. I’m happy with either choice but, like @scaryb , I don’t think I’ve seen Ghost Light so am kinda more leaning towards it. I’d started University and there were too many other distractions!

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

I’d be up for Caves of Androzani or Ghost Light myself. I can see one advantage for Androzani in that it’s in the Revisitations Box set that a few people have purchased. The drawback is that it’s another one that is largely seen as “one of the best”, also by Robert Holmes, and also features another crazy man in a mask. 😉

Ghost Light gets more mixed reviews and I agree that some of the emerging seeds of AG Who are there to be seen.

As the Movie is not episodic, I may just put a link to where it can be found to view on the Faces stand next month and suggest people comment there if they want to revisit it. Personally, I think there are certain elements of it that have also been carried into AG Who, so having Ghost Light and Movie available to consider simultaneously may be an interesting couple of conversations.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Crazy Captions 19 is ready for your blurb on the blog…

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whisht @juniperfish (j-fish..????? we miss u 🙁 ) @miapatrick @chickenelly @htpbdet @steve-thorp @shazzbot @janetteb @wolfweed @arkleseizure and everyone

We can always loop back to Androzani end of Aug/Sep;  it’s a good idea to put the movie link on Faces thread, and I agree it’s better to come to it via McCoy.  And might be nice for the younger newbies on here to have a more recent take on the Dr.

What do others think?

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@ Everyone, I’m quite happy to go with Ghost Light then, especially as, as @phaseshift points out, Androzani’s another Robert Holmes with a mad man in a mask. Don’t want people thinking they were all like that! And I think it’s a great idea just to link to the movie in your discussion Phaseshift.

So I’m deciding, cos it’s my site 😀 Ghost Light it is!

For those who want to buy it in advance the BBC are doing it for £5.99 – the price of a cheap bottle of wine and cheaper than Amazon, so take that, tax dodgers!

http://www.bbcshop.com/science-fiction/doctor-who-ghost-light-dvd/invt/bbcdvd1352

You can also pick up Curse of Fenric and Survival (they’re all part of a trilogy) for the same price.

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

@everyone

I’m all for watching Ghost Light.  Like others, I don’t think I ever saw it – or if I did it has been wiped from my brain.  As long as there is no Bonnie or singing moppets in it, I’ll be quite happy.

I’d still like to see the Paul McGann movie again, as I haven’t seen it since the AG episodes – and it would make sense to link it in with @phaseshift‘s next faces blog.  However, I remember giving it a second watch years ago, thinking that perhaps I’d misunderstood it the first time.  Unfortunately I hadn’t.

Perhaps time has been kind to it…

 

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@craig– the price of a cheap bottle of wine? You posh bugger. 😉

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@miapatrick Ha ha, but cheap is all I drink, that’s how I know what it costs (down my offie anyway)!

@scaryb do you think this might entice @juniperfish back. I always thought her colours were wrong…

[Arkleseizure @arkleseizure]

I think I’ll side with Ghost Light, too. It does indeed seem to sow the seeds for AG-Who some years before. Funnily enough, I realised yesterday that Doctor Who seemed to do this surprisingly often. They say The Invasion laid the ground for the Pertwee era. I can see what they mean, but I discovered The War Machines recently and I’d say the idea was seeded then, before Troughton. Anyway, I’m rambling. But I have to say I loved The War Machines. Bill Hartnell staring down a War Machine: brilliant! And no sign of his supposed illness, either.

Perhaps we could go black and white after Ghost Light and Androzani?

[Anonymous @]

Also Ghost Light is only three episodes, so it’s a walk in the park after the six-parter of Weng-Chiang…

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@craig– I know! posh! (three for a tenner, me.)

Is ghost light McCoy? there is a chance I might have seen it. The one image I have of McCoy is him standing in some ruins, taking very manipulatively to someone bad, and swaying weirdly on his feet. (could be a false memory. Really liked it though.)

(I have also seen the McGann film, but mostly for the same reason I’ve watched many films: Withinail & I. He is a good actor, though, so I was glad when TEH visually referenced him.)

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@miapatrick
That’s ‘The Greatest Show in the Galaxy’, which is also a good story.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@miapatrick and @wolfweed – Greatest Show in the Galaxy is also a bit of a legend. They discovered asbestos in some of the BBC TV Centre studios, so shut them down.

Rather than lose the story completely (like Shada), the production team put up a circus tent in the car park at BBC Elstree and filmed all the supposed-to-be-studio-interiors in the tent. In a tent. In a car park.

 

😀

[stevethewhistle @steve-thorp]

At this rate of buying DVDs, I will soon have more than Sally Sparrow!
🙂

[Anonymous @]

@wolfweed @whisht

The one saving grace of being utterly unable to connect to the internet since last Saturday, is that I missed all the Royal Baby ™ hype leading up to the birth, and the equally hysterical post-natal coverage.

I now just can’t decide, if Georgy Boy (Boy George?) looks better as a Sontaran, or a werewolf.  😆  @wolfweed, your pictures are, as usual, amazing.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Roberts/Hickman channel…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD1aWDGOGJY&feature=c4-overview&list=UUa30a6Ra2Wlb6d6boFGDSww

Cyberman with detachable hand (pre NIS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHIfH5mevBw

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@danmartinuk has his next Guardian blog up for “Earthshock”. I’ve just enjoyed celebrating Adric’s demise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jul/25/earthshock-doctor-who-classic-episode

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@arkleseizure

I think the thing about Invasion setting up the Pertwee is simply that it introduces UNIT and the notion of the Doctor working together with UNIT to repel alien threats.

War Machines is certainly an invasion of Earth story – but not the first, that honour going to the Daleks back in Hartnell’s second year.

🙂

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

If it matters, I would watch Ghostlight in preference to Greatest Show in the Galaxy…

[Arkleseizure @arkleseizure]

@htpbdet — Yes, the Invasion introduced the concept of UNIT, which is clearly a big deal, but the The War Machines introduced the idea of the Doctor joining forces with an contemporary Earth forces to defeat a threat to global security. This idea resurfaced periodically throughout the Troughton years before being formalised in UNIT ready for Pertwee.

The Dalek Invasion of Earth is a story I’ve long considered an odd man out in Doctor Who. It’s actually mistitled: The Dalek Occupation of Earth would describe it better as the invasion itself is over and done with before the Doctor arrives on the scene. His job is to help the resistance. Such fait accompli stories are virtually unheard of on Earth. That’s why I see the War Machines as where the Doctor Saves Earth as a plot really begins.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@arkleseizure

Fair enough.

For me, the iconic scene of the Dalek emerging from the Thames represents, in a very fundamental way, the concept of aliens invading Earth, regardless of whether or not they have invaded, are about to invade or are invading.

And it always seemed to me that the resistance that the Doctor worked with was the equivalent of the forces with whom the Doctor would work in any number of stories: the “good” locals banded together. UNIT represented a new concept – a dedicated force for repelling aliens.

Of course, the Doctor saved Earth from an alien threat in Time Meddler too.

🙂

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@Bluesqueakpip Thanks for the hint and too bad =( Its fun to walk in places they have been.

Though you all might enjoy the grafic I found about the Doctors life up to season 6 NewWho.

http://www.cabletv.com/doctor-who-timeline

Although most of you sure know all that stuff by heart.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@arkleseizure

Perhaps we could go black and white after Ghost Light and Androzani?

It’s interesting that one because your question made me think of the timings in the lead up to the 50th. I’m really happy with Ghost Light for the seventh and Androzani is perfect for five (and features as much of six as I’m now willing to watch without safety gear and hard narcotics).

If we want to continue after that it would be nice to find some relatively short Pertwee, Troughton and Hartnell stories in the lead up to the 50th. GL and CoA take us to 7th September. A Terror of the Autons (or equivalent at 4 eps) until 5th October. A Tomb of the Cybermen (or equivalent at 4 eps) until 2nd November. We could take a week off and watch the first episode – Unearthly Child the week before the 50th, which would be nice.

I know it’s racing ahead but I think it’s worth bearing the potential timings in mind.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@phaseshift @arkleseizure @htpbdet

Yeah, been thinking about rewatch order too.  It seems to be evolving organically in the right order!  I’m more than happy to do b/w (you have to ask????!), but would prefer if it wasn’t a reconstruction, although I know it limits choice. Would be good to do Hatnell and Troughton justice. An Unearthly Child just before the 50th is a great idea.  I really liked Terror of the Autons, so happy with that for Pertwee. I suggest @htpbdet nominates the Troughton one. 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@htpbdet @arkleseizure

For me, the iconic scene of the Dalek emerging from the Thames represents, in a very fundamental way, the concept of aliens invading Earth, regardless of whether or not they have invaded, are about to invade or are invading.

I have to agree with that. It was jawdropping to watch at the time. In one very short scene, with no words – right at the end of the episode – it brought the daleks to earth AND not only overcame the “they can’t do stairs” thing… but, but… it was HIDING UNDER THE WATER!  The Dr Who-world shifted. Nowhere was safe any more.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Re Dalek underwater

Just struck me just now,  I like to think it influenced the very similar scene in Copolla’s Apocalypse Now. (Towards the end, Martin Sheen’s character. Sorry, can’t find the clip). In some timey wimey way!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@timeloop

That chart you linked to is pretty awesome. Thanks 🙂

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@wolfweed– thank you! That’s exactly as I remembered it.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@phaseshift, good suggestion. I agree re’ letting HTPBDET pick the Troughton story. I also like the idea of watching An Unearthly Child in the week leading up to the anniversary.

(I must confess to having a problem with the once a week thing. We always watched Who” nightly in Oz so I am watching the way I am used to rather than one episode a week. I found out that ABC are currently screening two episodes a night through the week. I don’t follow TV Guides myself.)

Cheers

Janette

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@phaseshift @janetteb @scaryb

I am happy for @phaseshift to decide. I don’t know a Troughton story I can’t defend… 🙂

I owe @jimthefish a rambling about In Defence of Krotons and hope to get to that soon.

I do wonder though whether, when it comes to Hartnell and Pertwee, we might be better off looking at three or four episodes from different stories, rather than pick a whole story? It might be a better way to reflect on the strengths/weaknesses of their Doctors, rather than be distracted by the myriad ways in which television production has improved over the years. Just a thought.

I guess I would advocate Underwater Menace 2, Moonbase 2, Invasion 8 and War Games 10  – or as @phaseshift has suggested Tomb of the Cybermen (or Mind Robber) if you went for whole stories.

Would people listen to an episode a week of just audio? If so, Web of Fear is hard to beat…

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet — Looking forward to your defence of the Krotons — although I should add that it is a story that I like very much — being the first Troughton I actually saw onscreen.

With regards to using isolated episodes, interesting idea but I can’t help but feel that it would confer an unfair advantage on the other Doctors, who have to stand or fall by their performance in whatever story has been chosen, rather than cherry-picking their ‘greatest hits’, as it were…

Also don’t have a problem with audio — and you’re right, it probably doesn’t get much better then the Web of Fear — but again, can’t help feel that it might be ‘shifting the goalposts’ again a bit with our imaginations ‘filling in the gaps’ to the extent that we wouldn’t be watching the actual episode, but the episode as recreated in our heads. (Although that might be an interesting experiment in itself, Very postmodern and all that.)

I’m inclined to think that we should be viewing the episodes in as close to ‘laboratory conditions’ as we can muster, which to me means full episodes as broadcast. Although I’m more than happy to roll with whatever’s decided. Both approaches definitely have their merits…

Androzani and Autons are perfect other choices though, I think.

(Very glad to see you back with us again, @htpbdet. Hoping it all went well with the op.)

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@jimthefish

Yes, no issues from me.

Its not possible to watch the Troughton equivalent of Talons or Caves because it doesn’t exist in the archives. 🙁

You are right though – absolutely – that the experiment was about watching the episodes in their original transmitted format so for Troughton that only leaves you with Tomb or Krotons if you are after four parters. I have watched them both countless times and don’t prefer one over the other : for me the idiocy of Kaftan and Kleig matches the idiocy of the design of the Krotons, so both stories are far from perfect, although both are easy to watch and enjoy.

And I agree that Androzani and Terror of the Autons are excellent choices.

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet — yes, it’s the most frustrating thing about the Troughton era. Although I quite like the way they did the Invasion with animated episodes. I thought that worked really well and am really looking forward to seeing The Moonbase when it’s released with the same treatment later this year… probably my favourite Who story ever, that one, I reckon…

Actually, you talk about the bad design of the Krotons, but they are one of the old Who monsters I’ve always thought should return and be given a ‘second chance’ — although they did show up in one of the Eighth Doctor novels….

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@jimthefish

Agreed – that Invasion animation is great. I too am looking forward to the Moonbase one…I always thought it was the scariest, moodiest Cybermen story – it builds suspense beautifully. That moment at the end of part two when Troughton realsies where the Cyberman is hiding…gold!

And agreed – the Krotons could be easily reimagined as workable for AG and they are rich with possibility. They could easily be the victims in a new story…

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@jimthefish @htpbdet

That’s an interesting idea re watching just episodes for each.  I take JtF’s point about it not being the same as with the other Doctors, but Hartnell and Troughton are starting with a disadvantage a) for being lo-fi b/w and (more importantly) b) for having a limited choice available. The recons do a good job for what they are, some of them very well, but they don’t show the energy and quirkiness each brought to the role. If you use a recon/animation then you are watching and commenting on that rather than the programme as it was first shown.

I like the idea of levelling the playing field a bit and watching episodes that show them at their best. Again thinking about younger forum members who don’t have the same context  as us veterans to put them in. But I’m also happy to revisit the Krotons (or Tomb). Or whatever the concensus is.

[Anonymous @]

As a fellow Brummie I’d like to congratulate David Harewood (Joshua Naismith in ‘The End Of Time’) for this award…

A Star Is Born

[Arkleseizure @arkleseizure]

@htpbdet, @jimthefish, @scaryb, @janetteb —

So far as Troughton goes, I’d favour The Mind Robber or Tomb as the best fully extant stories. I personally prefer Mind Robber, but I think Tomb would perhaps be a better choice, given that it was once thought lost forever itself. Hope springs eternal!

I don’t at all mind going audio for lost stories, (I’m halfway through the Loose Cannon reconstruction of The Space Pirates right now, as it happens), but I think it’s something we should do in addition to the BG reviews rather than as part of it. Perhaps we could do the Loose Cannon Mission to the Unknown by way of an experiment?

[janetteB @janetteb]

@arkleseizure We recently re watched Mind Robber. It holds up well to the test of time. It is one of my favourite BG stories and is all the more memorable as it is one of the few Troughton stories I have seen. I think the choice was being limited to 4 part stories so assume that is why Mind Robber wasn’t suggested, assuming (again) that it is a 6 parter. I have tried watching one of the reconstructions, (don’t know if it was done by Loose Cannon or not) and found it hard going.

cheers

Janette

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