Spoilers (3)

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    janetteB @janetteb

    @thane15 agree re’ Bill/Pearl. I think she is very talented. I do hope that she does stay on. The “clean slate” was not Moffat’s choice. I have heard that he wanted Tennant to stay on and has remarked on how daunting it was to have to introduce a new Doctor and Companion in his first season. Chibnell wanted P.C. to stay on and I am sure he will want to keep Pearl at least so there is some continuity.

    Will add Fortitude to my to watch list. I had intended to watch it mainly for the location but have not got around to doing so.



    Anonymous @

    @janetteb Ah, yes, I forgot that the Moff wanted David to stay on a bit. So some of those lines were written for Tennant in the later episodes? I guess the fish fingers and custard material with Amy had to be all new.

    Fortitude is really grim and very claustrophobic due to the setting -lots of secrets and lies!  But I enjoyed it


    Puro an’ Thane

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    No spoilers unless you don’t want to know the titles of the finale (they were named in the Radio Times), but a very interesting potential clue…

    Perhaps @pedant is right about ‘the future’ being inside the vault. The wiki link shows a River Song connection too…

    a 17th century poem -a big clue?

    To His Coy Mistress



    Some splendid bonkerising in the comments.

    Also, a reminder of The Minister of War from Before The Flood.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    ‘But at my back I always hear
    Time’s wingèd chariot hurrying near;
    And yonder all before us lie
    Deserts of vast eternity.
    Thy beauty shall no more be found,
    Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
    My echoing song’


    Adrics Star @adricsstar

    Who’s in the boat?
    In the ‘Next Time’ spot at the end of Oxygen a boat was seen heading towards a Castle, in the boat appear to be four individuals. At the front a Doctor like person appears to be standing up, then what appear to be two females, one with curly hair, (River Song?), in the middle but most intriguingly of all a man with grey hair and a black cloak sits at the back!!!
    Could the rumoured appearance of the First Doctor be coming earlier than predicted?

    Frobisher @frobisher

    Re. bootstrap paradoxes, as have been discussed elsewhere in relation to a specific forthcoming episode, how about this…

    The Master and Missy work together against the Doctor, before something makes Missy turn on the Master, killing him. The Master then regenerates into… Missy. Missy creates herself. Bootstrappy enough? Plus, double the Missy fun for a limited period. 🙂

    nerys @nerys

    Bill’s mother; lots of speculation going on about her (or, rather, the photo of her) looking like Clara. So could it be that Clara, suspended in her last moment of life and zipping around the universe in a TARDIS/diner, reconnects with Danny, gets pregnant and has his child (Bill’s mother), meaning that Bill is Clara’s and Danny’s granddaughter? Crazy, I know … yet it was suggested that the Doctor’s been lecturing at the university for 50 years. Timey-wimey!

    janetteB @janetteb

    @nerys I like that suggestion. I am suspicious that all the claims that there is nothing complicated about Bill might be a deliberate mislead. Moffat cannot do simple. It isn’t in his DNA. There is certainly bit of a focus on Bill’s Mum. We keep seeing her image, which suggests it has some greater significance.

    The fifty years also intrigues me. If what we are seeing is the present and given Bill’s mobile it would appear to be so though there have been no other real indicators of time, Bill’s style is ‘retro” and I don’t recall seeing any traffic, the Doctor must have been working at the University from about 1967, a few years after he first arrived on earth with Susan. I wonder if he started work there in 1963. Maybe this is an alternative universe where the Doctor stayed on earth and became a lecturer, his study certainly has an “alternative” world feel to it. As some of our own academics have remarked, what university provides its academic staff with offices like that?



    Anonymous @

    listening to the opening of Oxygen again and  liking the Doctor’s warning about the “void” -that it’s constantly waiting.

    Maybe the void is in the vault?

    Well, I had to put that out there 🙂

    MissRori @missrori

    That’s a pretty cool idea @thane15.  I’ve wondered if it’s something like that myself.  It stares into you when you stare into it!  😀

    But here’s another thought — Moff’s Radio Times synopsis of “World Enough and Time”, the first half of the season finale, notes that the story’s setting is right next to “the event horizon of a black hole”.  “The Doctor Falls” into that, I wonder?  😉

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    If the next Doctor to be cast is a woman; can it please be someone like Miranda Raison or Rachael Stirling; as opposed to Phoebe Waller-Bridge, Sue Perkins or Miranda Hart? (Pleeeeeez!)

    give me a raison

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Pearl in her jammies proclaims a possibility of what’s in the vault (making it all the less likely…)

    MissRori @missrori

    @wolfweed Thanks for sharing this.

    nerys @nerys

    @janetteb I like that suggestion. I am suspicious that all the claims that there is nothing complicated about Bill might be a deliberate mislead. Moffat cannot do simple. It isn’t in his DNA. There is certainly bit of a focus on Bill’s Mum. We keep seeing her image, which suggests it has some greater significance.

    I agree. I’ve always felt that Orson Pink’s existence was never sufficiently explained. He has the soldier man figurine, which he called a family heirloom. Certainly he is a descendant of Danny’s, and that could be it. But it would tie things together, at least for me, if he were a descendant of both Danny and Clara. However, that detail might have been lost in the shuffle, between Moffatt’s many “will she stay or will she go” rewrites for Jenna Coleman, after she decided to stick around through the end of Season 9.

    MissRori @missrori

    @janetteb  @nerys  I think, given the BBC synopsis for “The Lie of the Land”, the penny will soon drop on what’s up with Bill.  A delusion so powerful it affects humanity and the Doctor…but not her?  Something’s up.

    The Moff has said that Orson Pink was not a direct descendant of Danny, much less Clara, but remember Rule 1.  And yes, I think Bill’s “reveal” will have to do with her mum/motherhood, it’s been a strong motif this year.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Probably not a spoiler; though Alex Kingston does say something rather odd…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    This is definitely a spoiler. Dunno what it means though…

    Extremis unreleased illustration

    (From forthcoming book Myths & Legends)

    MissRori @missrori

    Hmm, it might just be an illustration from the new book, rather than “Extremis”-related.  Still interesting.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @missrori – Oops! You’re right. I misread it. Probably not Extremis related at all…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    michelle gomez drops hints to how missy will return

    bloody doors

    ‘You’re only supposed to blow the bloody Daleks up!’

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    And if the next Doctor cast is a man, please don’t make it Richard Ayoade. I love him in Garth Marenghi’s Darkplace but…..

    …You might as well cast Michael (flamin’) McIntyre…..

    mic mc

    janetteB @janetteb

    @missrori I still think/hope that Orson is not a descendent of Danny’s but a twin possibly married to a Claricle. Just more interesting and less obvious. Maybe Bill is the daughter of Orson and a claricle. Now that is just too bonkers. It has occurred to me that maybe the Doctor’s promise has more to do with looking after Bill that watching over whatever is in the vault. Or maybe it is Bill’s mother in the vault. I am getting tangled up in my own bonkerising now.

    @wolfweed I adored Richard Ayoede as Moss but I don’t think he has the acting range required to play the Doctor. He might make a lovely companion though.





    MissRori @missrori

    @janetteb  Oh no, your ideas aren’t too bonkers.  I have wondered myself if the Doctor’s promise relates to Bill, especially as the season finale will involve “someone he has pledged to protect” dying and his attempting to right the wrong, driven by friendship.  From the sounds of things, the candidates for that are either Missy or Bill.

    Also I have wondered if it’s Bill’s mum in the Vault.  But see, there’s the question of the identity of the woman in the photos.  The Doctor took these.

    What if they aren’t actually of Bill’s mother?   After all, Bill never knew her, so how would she know?

    What if the Doctor is hiding the true identity of Bill’s mother from her, for some reason?  Whom might she be the daughter of?  Susan Foreman?  Clara Oswald?  A Claricle?  (Which is not as out there as it seems.  The Doctor Who Magazine comic “Blood and Ice” revealed that all Claricles have their own lives and families, and not all of them died in the service of helping the Doctor.)  River Song?  Missy?

    MissRori @missrori

    In the meantime, I was thinking forward to this year’s Christmas special/finale for Twelve, and I think it should either be titled “No More” (to go with “The Doctor Falls”) or “The Dawn of the Doctor”, since they already used day, night, time, and name.  “The Space of the Doctor” doesn’t roll off the tongue.  😉

    At TVTropes it’s been pointed out that the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor’s finales used the word time in their titles, so maybe this one will follow suit?  Or will it be too redundant after “World Enough and Time”?  😀

    Also, assuming that Bill and Nardole are not carrying over to Series 11 and thus will be written out in “The Doctor Falls” — having Twelve’s finale also be theirs would dilute the focus — will that episode be a companion-free turn for the Twelfth Doctor?  Hmmmm…

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    This is partly bonkerising and partly spoilerish so hence the reason for putting this out here. Earlier this week I was in my local news agents and spotted a sub headline with Michelle Gomez sayin “why I left Dr Who”  oh no I thought as I have enjoyed Mz Gomez as Missy and tried to see if I could see the article and what I could brief see seemed to be supporting this headline though I was strapped for time and couldn’t read much.If anyone else has perhaps seen the entirety of this article to reassure me that this ain’t so. Now leading to the bonkerising this caused me to consider the fact that Sims is returning as the master now I wondered if we have in fact been seeing the Master out of sequence and in fact Missy is actually a pre Jacobi version of the master. Yes I realise most of you will be screaming impossible but I thought this at least deserved your collective thoughts.

    as an addendum I’ve just Googled Michelle leaving and seen a Radio Times online article and it appears to be true boo hoo


    lisa @lisa


    Before the Delgado Master?  I get a strong Delgado vibe from Missy


    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Not sure if this has been posted yet:


    wolfweed @wolfweed


    (From Wikia)

    In DWM 481, following Danny’s death in Death in Heaven, Steven Moffat stated that one possible explanation is that Orson was a lineal descendant of Danny’s.

    o pink

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Since there has been talk on the web of David Bradley reprising the Hartnell Doctor, I think that has been interpreted as a possible appearance in the final two-parter. But…since we are also told that this regeneration will be different, and the clips have implied that it will take place before the Christmas special, what implication might that have for the Christmas special? How could Capadi be in it if he has already regenerated?

    Well, what if Capaldi isn’t in it? What if Moffat’s departing trick is to make the Christmas special a one-off starring David Bradley as the first Doctor? My dream story would be for the Hartnell Doctor to make good on his promise to Susan to “come back”. Imagine. A Christmas special that went to the heart of the history of the show, that reprises the first Doctor and Susan. Where he “comes back” to his grand-daughter on Christmas.

    There wouldn’t be a dry eye in the house.

    MissRori @missrori

    @blenkinsopthebrave  That’s an interesting possibility but as a Capaldi/Twelve fan I’ll be hurt if he doesn’t get a send off at Christmas like Ten and Eleven did.  He already had fewer episodes and no extra specials.

    I don’t think he’ll fully regenerate before Christmas.  A lot suggests it’s going to turn out to be a slow regeneration, like a terminal illness.  Or the clip is from a fake out regeneration like Ten had.  Or it’s the Monks messing with his brain.  Or…

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Indeed, running with my David Bradley as The First Doctor Christmas special (sorry @missrori, I just cannot help myself); imagine further that they bring back the entire original cast playing the Doctor, Susan, Ian and Barbara from A Matter of Space and Time, and, somehow, manage to include William Russell as the elderly Ian Chesterton.

    In fact, there isn’t a dry eye in the Blenkinsop household as I type this…

    MissRori @missrori

    One of the Radio Times’ many Who articles has a lot of evidence  that the clip of the “regeneration” is indeed from “The Lie of the Land”, the final part of the Monks storyline.  The Monks’ insignia is everywhere in the photos and clips, suggesting that this comes during the planet’s delusion that’s allowed them to conquer all.  And the Doctor’s coat is the same.

    So…is this regeneration a delusion?  Does poor Bill shoot the hypnotized Doctor to save her skin?  Does she just wing him?  Will he get his sight back?  Is it indeed a 10-style partial regeneration?  Questions questions….  😉

    Edit:  Oh, the 1st Doctor Xmas would be sweet, but would the newWho only fans care much?  🙁


    wolfweed @wolfweed


    Weird to think that Susan (& her son Alex) teamed up with the 8th Dr in the audios & that ‘Night of the Doctor’ supposedly makes the audios canon.

    Also this bit from SJA ‘Death of the Doctor’ implies that at some point the Doc has gone/will go back for Ian & Barbara…

    RANI: Do you think there’s lots of Jo Grants out there? You know, like the Doctor’s old companions?

     SARAH JANE: I do a little search sometimes.

    CLYDE: What do you google, Tardis?

     SARAH JANE: It works. No, I can’t be sure, but there’s a woman called Tegan in Australia, fighting for Aboriginal rights. There’s a Ben and Polly, in India, running an orphanage there. There was Harry. Oh, I loved Harry. He was a doctor. He did such good work with vaccines. He saved thousands of lives. And there’s a Dorothy something. She runs that company, A Charitable Earth. She’s raised billions. And this couple in Cambridge, both professors. Ian and Barbara Chesterton. Rumour has it, they’ve never aged. Not since the sixties. I wonder.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @missrori and @blenkinsopthebrave — I wonder if the regeneration we’ve seen in the trailer is the regeneration of a shadow Doctor within the monks’ simulation. I suspect that this is a concept that’s going to be returned to. In fact, I wouldn’t be at all surprised is this is how the monks are finally defeated — they’re put in their own simulation and fooled into thinking that their invasion has been successful….

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    You know, I sort hope that scenario doesn’t eventuate, as it really would be too close a version of the Star Trek Next Generation episode ‘Ship in a Bottle’, where Picard outwits Moriarty be re-programming the holodeck to convince Moriarty he is in the real world when in fact he is still on the holodeck:

    Frobisher @frobisher

    @jimthefish, @blenkinsopthebrave, @missrori

    Regeneration speculation! Now we’re talking! 🙂

    I love @jimthefish‘s idea of the Shadow Doctor regenerating, and Shadow Doctors in different simulations becoming different “new” Doctors. To push it a little further, what if the Shadow Doctors could destroy the simulations by all simultaneously regenerating, but each ends up different. We could then have the next Doctor played by:

    Kris Marshall

    Phoebe Waller-Bridge

    Ben Whishaw

    Idris Elba

    Tilda Swinton

    Tom Baker

    Jenna Coleman

    Richard Ayoade

    Maxine Peake

    Miranda Hart


    Sacha Dhawan


    That would be… um… something.


    lisa @lisa



    YES!  I’m thinking  that same  thing!  On the Extremis page  earlier today in my  post to Kharis  and

    it definitely would be something!    I wondering how many simulations may be running

    concurrently too?


    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    It would certainly be a bold final flourish from SM — and the sort of meta thing I’d imagine him doing, making some kind of commentary on the endless speculation over new Doctors.

    And I’m increasingly inclined to think that the whole simulation thing was handled at great length in Extremis because it’s going to be significant to the arc later on, as @kharis (I think) mentioned earlier in a Tesselector kind of way.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    Brilliant! But one of the Doctors would have to be Olivia Colman. After all, as she said The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot: “I’m usually in everything.”

    Frobisher @frobisher


    There must be many multiples of simulations, I agree. Although, to be honest, I think we will now leave the sims behind and see the fight with the Monks in the “real” world.


    Other theories I am considering as to why this regeneration will be unlike any other:

    – The Doctor splits into two seperate people, the Doctor and the Valeyard.

    This would riff on the idea on 12 being preoccupied with if he was a good man or not – he could feel the Valeyard within him.

    Or this one, of which I particularly fond:

    – The 12th Doctor somehow ends up inserted into the events of The Tenth Planet (hence the Mondasian Cybermen), and ends up dying instead of the 1st Doctor, possibly in a deliberate attempt to change his own timeline for the better, or to try to save his life in some way. This causes a paradox, as if the 1st Doctor doesn’t regenerate there and then all the subsequent events in the Doctor’s timeline are altered, and 12 doesn’t exist as we know him, so he couldn’t save the 1st Doctor in the first place. Timey wimey – nice. The series ends with a bemused 1st Doctor realising he has to try to put the timeline back as it should be, or VERY BAD things will happen to space time. That means stopping the 12th Doctor saving him.

    Cue the Christmas Special:

    It is late, and the mechanics of it escape me now, but basically the Christmas Special is It’s a Wonderful Life, with the 12th as Jimmy Stewart, and the 1st as the angel, with the 1st showing the 12th how he has affected those around him positively, and that he is, after all, a good man.

    Somehow the 12th must end up dead (and the 1st too as a result). Could be a cheery Christmas treat….

    Anonymous @


    Did I hear tessalecta?



    lisa @lisa


    I like your ideas!    You know I have just been re-watching and didn’t  Bill’s Mum say

    she’s dating a guy named Harold.   So  maybe like in Harold Saxon???   No!


    lisa @lisa


    Never mind – I got it reversed    – It not a Harold its a Howard but it would have been

    really cool to make the boyfriend Harold.   Wishful wanting!     🙁

    geoffers @geoffers

    @wolfweed  re: post 57631

    i think river has met all the doctors, if i’m not mistaken? she “knows all his faces” in the angel two-parter (The Crash of the Byzantium), if memory serves correctly, so here she’s alluding to only the three she’s filmed with… and possibly the next? hoping to get picked up by chibnall and co., or maybe she’s around for capaldi’s exit?

    or, if the first doctor does show up at the end of this series, maybe she’s in an episode with him, as well?

    i’ve wanted some stand-alone stories/appearances from paul mcgann, since he was featured in ‘the night of the doctor,’ perhaps as specials (a la the tennant between-series specials), and i think they could do the same with david bradley, now that he’s filled in for the first doctor? i doubt bradley would sign on for a whole series, anyway (or that they could afford him, to do so), so it would be cool to have him do a couple of one-off type stories, to fill time between series (or as a mid-series special, even)…

    make this happen, chibnall!! 🙂

    MissRori @missrori

    @frobisher I’ve actually wondered if they would try a Wonderful Life plot for Twelve, because it would fit into that Doctor’s character arc, or just revisit “The Tenth Planet”, but as you noted the ending would be rather grim even by regeneration standards.  Also, it would be rather similar to “Turn Left” conceptually.

    The Doctor splitting into two has been floated elsewhere, but — and this is also an issue with revisiting One, at least over multiple episodes– it hinges on the modern-Who-only viewers and/or kids really caring about relatively obscure continuity.  One reason “Day of the Doctor” was centered on new series Doctors, though it featured vintage villains in the b-plot, was to make it accessible to both old and newer fans.

    Also, I think there are enough things on the finale and Christmas show’s plate without an alternate continuity to deal with.  😉  Such as Nardole and Bill’s fates, the resolution to Heather’s story (which, as @pedant noted, seems to have to do with the Cybermen), and the Twelfth Doctor-Missy relationship finding closure.  At least on Tumblr there are a lot of fans hoping Twelve sees Clara one last time, if only in his mind’s eye as happened with Amy.

    And what about Twelve returning to Gallifrey to mend his burnt bridges with his people and giving us the space opera other fans wanted “Hell Bent” to be?  And whatever happened to Kate and the Osgoods, and Ohila?

    MissRori @missrori

    (hmm)  From what I can tell from what has been released so far — which is really just the Radio Times synopsis — the plot of the season finale “World Enough and Time” / “The Doctor Falls” seems to be that on a space station near a black hole, the Doctor takes the rashest risk of his lives out of friendship, when he witnesses “someone he is pledged to protect” die.  AKA Missy from what we’ve seen so far.  Somehow, trying to save her leads to a confrontation with the Mondasian Cybermen — billed as the Doctor’s “final battle”.

    The black hole is probably the metaphorical pit mentioned in “Extremis”, and the synopsis had the episode’s teaser quote be “Without hope, without witness, without reward”.  I think the heart of this episode is the Doctor-Missy relationship coming full circle, and resolving Heather and the companions’ stories on the side.

    The Christmas show could be the One/Twelve crossover adventure, but it would more likely — as has been rumored — be the story of how they each contributed to the rescue of Gallifrey in “The Day of the Doctor”.

    MissRori @missrori

    Now, going back to how the Monks storyline will be resolved (assuming they don’t figure into later episodes)…”The Lie of the Land”‘s official synopsis has it that the Monks put humanity and the Doctor under its spell and they are now slaving away for them without realizing they’ve been conned.  But Bill is immune and must convince the Doctor of the real Truth, or have to kill him since he’s on the wrong side and, from the Radio Times teaser quotes, is ready to kill her for not seeing the false “Truth”.

    But how can Bill be immune to something powerful enough to deceive a Time Lord’s super-brain and the rest of humanity to the point that the Earth immediately becomes a police state with insignia of the Monks everywhere and little statues of Monks on desks as they ask the Monks to conquer all…a police state that presumably will instantly disappear after this story wraps up, ala the Year that Never Was?

    The answer could be one of the following:

    1. Bill has a special power she was never aware of until now, a natural defense.  Maybe she’s not human after all?  Or human, but with some kind of one-of-a-kind brain issue?  Might there be an explanation for her strange relationship with the photo of her mum, how she talks and even calls out to it?
    2. The Doctor gives Bill something with which to see the Truth before everyone else is brainwashed, perhaps serving as a cliffhanger for “The Pyramid at the End of the World”.  But why wouldn’t he keep something like that if he only has the one, since he’s the Doctor and she isn’t?
    3. Bill is the only one actually brainwashed into a complete illusion that the world has been conquered.  The Monks have realized that the Doctor is very powerful, and that he and Bill are very close, so turning her into their agent and having her slay him would help out a lot.  The Doctor and his cohorts are trying to help her, but she’s stuck in the delusion and she winds up shooting him, triggering the fake-out regeneration but also allowing him to 1) heal his blindness and 2) restore her sanity.  On the other hand, she’s still going to be a companion after this…
    4. The Doctor is the only one actually brainwashed into the complete illusion, and it’s Bill trying to save him.  When he realizes what’s going on, to parallel what happened to his Sim-self he allows himself to partially regenerate, whether by letting Bill hurt him (she can’t shoot him fatally, else it would have to be the full-on regeneration) or voluntarily, despite the risks to future selves.

    Well, we’ll see if it’s any, all or none in 2 weeks!  😉

    Anonymous @

    @frobisher @lisa @jimthefish

    I love these theories. I know very little about ST nxt Gen @blenkinsopthebrave so it would be new to me! I can see your point about it being a bit annoying if this was the route taken (if seen in a previous show):

    this is how the monks are finally defeated — they’re put in their own simulation and fooled into thinking that their invasion has been successful….

    I love the idea of there being literally thousands of sim Doctors regenerating over and again splitting into various multi–sims (like the claricles!) -certainly I can imagine Moffat taking it that way but I also like the idea of the Doctor borrowing from the future in order to regenerate temporarily (hence what we’ve seen in earlier trailers) and having to ‘pay this back’ (“life pays you out, don’t you find?”)  and possibly (I think I said that on the Extremis page) the creation of the valeyard hijacking this regen for his own purposes but could well be stuck in a parallel simulation!

    @frobisher I really love the idea of 12th saving the 1st! What bonkers speculation: and not ‘out of this world’ at all -a feasible and sensible concept.

    If the Doctor saved Missy (and did so) was there an indication that maybe Missy is an incarnation of the Doctor?

    I apologise as to which theorist here said that? But ooooh that is Proper Gold Star Bonkers, and tis @craig‘s masthead.

    Going forward with Chibnall, I hope there are equally meaty theories about which we can get our hearts behind! I remain, as always, optimistic. <-=->

    Kindest, Puro

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @missrori maybe the Monks are able to convince everybody else in the real world that they are in fact in a simulation, but as proven by her differing reaction to everybody else in Extremis, Bill refuses to believe it, meaning she continues to fight.

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