Spoilers (3)

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  • #59231
    Avatar of janetteBjanetteB @janetteb

    @missrori I agree that the Master/Missy are highly unlikely to be at each other’s throats. The Doctor hasn’t always got along with his former selves but how much greater will be the rivalry between two regens of the master. Looking forward to it. (or would be if it did not mean the end of P.C. and S.M’s respective tenures.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #59232
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    #59234
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @wolfweed @thane15

    It did cross my mind that the guy didnt realise the Master was a timelord. In which case 3TL is meant to be read 3 Doctors

    #59241
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    The Radio Times‘ speculation is at it again, wondering which character the Doctor has “pledged to protect” will end up dead next week, forcing the Doctor to try and save them any way he can.  At this point, going by the Next Time trailer and official synopsis combined with this season’s developments, it’s narrowed down to either Missy or Bill. It’s Bill’s death that has been teased quite a bit in promotional materials from the start, and she came awfully near the grave in both “Oxygen” and “The Lie of the Land”.  She also appears to be the one gunned down in the Next Time trailer, and the Doctor once out of the TARDIS interacts with Missy, not Bill.  And of course, the Doctor losing a companion he cares deeply about because his faith in Missy’s potential for goodness was misplaced would be a suitably tragic flashpoint for a grim finale storyline.

    Is Pearl Mackie’s Bill going to die in the series finale?

    But as the article points out, if Bill’s death is going to be really-for-real-you-guys!, it wouldn’t be this heavily foreshadowed and teased.  And between that, the time dilation concept, that shot of the hospital ward, the fact that Pearl Mackie is listed as being in “The Doctor Falls”, and the really misleading promos for “The Lie of the Land” and the first Series 10 trailer proving nothing can be trusted, I think it’s more likely that by the end of “World Enough and Time” she’ll be saved from the grave, but still in as much in danger as the others, with “The Doctor Falls” revealing her — and everybody else’s — ultimate fate.

    Another reason for this is making the first companion in the revival to die-really-for-real-with-no-hope-of-a-loophole-you-guys! the one who’s only the show’s second long-term companion of color (as opposed to Mickey, who only had a few trips) and the first to be openly LGBT (whereas Clara’s bisexuality was pretty much a winking joke,  Jack only had a few trips, and River isn’t usually considered a companion) would be just asking for a huge outcry from fans.  Bad enough that many fans felt Martha got a raw deal from the Tenth Doctor, but last spring there was a disturbing trend of sci-fi/fantasy shows in the U.S. killing off female characters who were black and/or LGBT.  I would hope that the Moff and company noticed how badly that went over with those shows’ fanbases (it pretty much destroyed Sleepy Hollow, which killed off the co-lead).  Bill Potts has been, far as I can tell, one of the best-received revival-era companions — a shock death would be pretty upsetting for a lot of fans.  I think she and the Doctor are the most likely to survive this storyline.  Her more than the Twelfth Doctor actually, what with all the teases that he’ll get his fatal wound in this story!

    Also, Bill getting killed and there being no more to it than that would probably fall into the “women in refrigerators” trope — i.e., a female character’s death is used to upset the main male character and/or motivate his actions for the remainder of the story, but nothing more, effectively using her as a prop.  Missy killing [an] Osgood in “Death in Heaven” was criticized as being this, as she (by her own admission) really didn’t have a reason to kill her except to prove she was Evil and upset the Doctor — as if hijacking the afterlife, killing a bunch of other people, and creating a zombie Cyberman army hadn’t proven/done that already.

    No, I suspect there’s more to all this than it seems.  Perhaps the “death” isn’t even a death to begin with.  Seems like a wonderful way to lure the tender-hearted Twelfth Doctor into a trap…  😉

    (Deposits $0.02)

    Also — what to make of Saxon!Master asking for a kiss?  “Give us a kiss” is a phrase I associate with old relatives asking their kids for a peck on the cheek myself…or is it just more “foe yay” in action, which would surprise none of us?  😉

    And finally, the finale is titled “The Doctor Falls”.  Yes — but which one?

    (cackles and flies off on a broomstick)  😀

    #59242
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    Great analysis of the known knowns and the known unknowns. I think Moff said that he lies didn’t he ? :)

    Take a look at the video @wolfweed posted at 58657. If there is a link between the night time inserted video clip and what Michelle says in the interview around that clip, then whatever happens next week is not going to be straight forward. So far as I can tell, the video clip is from the last episode.

    #59243
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    I wonder if Tony Pond will return in the Xmas Special? (Alongside Amy, Rory, River, Clara, Orson, Courtney (Woods), The Paternoster Gang, Kate Stewart, Petronella Osgood(s), CyberBrig, Abigail, Kazran, Santa, Tasha Lem, Captain Jack, CAL, the Weeping Angels, the Silence, Pope Benedict, etc.)

    tony pond

    Maybe Mr Moff will confound expectations & not have any of these characters return…….

    #59245
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick Thank you — I’m flattered.

    Ah yes, the video clip too…hadn’t seen that.  But combine that with the promo photo of the Mondasian Cybermen walking down a street…it does suggest a city setting, no?  For that matter, the recently leaked photo of a Cyberman and the Doctor walking through a great, broken-down wooden door brings to mind the look of the execution planet.  And then there was the Red Nose Day contest promo video with Capaldi in character as Twelve alongside a modern Cyberman…in a forest.  And there’s a noticeable cut on Twelve’s forehead.  The scope of this finale may well be huge, rather than confined to the spaceship as I first thought.  Perhaps we’ll get to see Mondas at last?

    @wolfweed I know that a lot of people found the continuity parade denouement of “The End of Time” Part Two to be excessive, so Moffat might not want to repeat that, especially if he’s only giving an hour over to this Christmas special (why not make it feature length to bookend “Deep Breath”, though?).

    I think a lot depends on whether Bill appears in the regeneration story.  Assuming she survives “The Doctor Falls”, she and the Doctor might still part ways at the end of that, which is almost par for the course in season finales. Especially so if Heather is brought into the action; it would be odd to raise the possibility of a reunion and not follow through, and her being connected to the Cybermen is not out of the question.  Or Bill might choose to leave, feeling exhausted.  Or the Doctor might send her away knowing his end is near.  This of course doesn’t rule out Bill coming back for the regeneration, but it would be unusual, especially if she’s not going to be a recurring character in Series 11 — how would they be separated then?

    But if Bill is not in the regeneration story — and I’ve got a hunch Nardole won’t survive “The Doctor Falls”, especially with Gomez’s tease of Missy doing at least one despicable thing for kicks in that episode — then there should be at least one familiar character alongside the Twelfth Doctor.  A regeneration story isn’t the time to introduce a new companion, and he shouldn’t have to “die” totally alone.

    I know the most popular rumor is that the Christmas episode is going to be a First Doctor/Twelfth Doctor team-up, but there are a few other plausible scenarios:

    • Twelve’s side of “The Day of the Doctor”
    • Twelve mending his fences with the Time Lords over the events of “Hell Bent”
    • A reunion with Clara Oswald to “properly” bring closure to their story — or at least a cameo as he regenerates (I’ve read at Tumblr that the diner used to represent the diner TARDIS’ interior has been booked for filming…)
    • A reunion with Susan Foreman, probably the biggest possibility seeded in this season that hasn’t paid off as yet
    • A Dalek story of some kind, since they haven’t had a major role since “The Witch’s Familiar” and there should be some payoff to Twelve energizing them

    Any other suggestions?  :)

    #59246
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    @MissRori

    ‘And then suddenly, young Chessington & Barbara walked through the doors…’

    i n b

    #59248
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    Cities can have ports.  A Mondas setting is an interesting idea, although it would go against off screen lore for it to be verdant environment. Not that that would matter if Moff wanted to do it.

    @wolfweed

    Yes, with D1. That would be a fitting ending.

    #59250
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    Bonkers: If Susan Foreman turns out to be the Master’s daughter, that would make him Ex President (Of the Time Lords) and perhaps the Doctor’s son/daughter…

    master master

    (Play the ‘Sons & Daughters’ theme again)

    #59251
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    Hoping they use this (with an upside down flipped globe) as the ident next week…

    globe

    #59252
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @wolfweed

    Bonkers brilliant ! However, cant you take that idea one step further and speculate that Susan was the first generation of the Master ? Hatred building out of the Doctor’s failure to “come back one day”

     

    #59253
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    Bonkers – Xmas ep will be 2 minutes long & will feature Jenny Who in a special edition of ‘Who Do You Think You Are’, the genealogy show…

    jen

    #59254
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    Ahhh, it’s frustrating not to be able to make the truly bonkers speculations.  My problem is that I think not only in terms of what characters do in-universe, but in terms of what the creators can and can’t do, what audiences will go with and what they won’t, etc.  Much too practical.  😉

    I am fascinated with the Doctor’s plan to test Missy’s sincerity, risky though it be.  Sure, she can be all goody-goody around him, but what if he’s not right there?  Even knowing she’s watching him, can she resist her worse impulses?  Be responsible for others (i.e. companions)?

    But of course the heart of it is this: The universe shows its true face when it asks for help, and those who are asked show their true faces by how they respond…

    #59255
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    The new trailer which won’t be released until tomorrow…

    #59256
    Avatar of WellicanbakeWellicanbake @wellicanbake

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>I have noticed that the original poster for this season shows a third time Lord who has yet to make an appearance this season. That could be the 3rd time Lord mentioned in the RT with master and Missy both being counted as the same timelord.</p>

    #59257
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @wolfweed

    Thanks. Excellent. It appears to be a Mondas Cybermen origin story then. A couple of quick observations/questions:

    • Bill appears to be partially cyber-converted in the Hospital bed scene
    • Are the planet (Mondas ?) scenes a flash back to explain the origin of the cybermen on the ship or something else.
    • A glimpse of Master and Missy together
    #59258
    Avatar of WellicanbakeWellicanbake @wellicanbake
    #59259
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @wellicanbake

    Well remembered. There’s several other faces we haven’t seen yet as well (Kate Stewart and Angels)

    #59260
    Avatar of lisalisa @lisa

    ‘Death in Heaven’   Missy and Cybermen .

    Missy seemed to be in control of those Cybermen.

    ‘World Enough and Time’ again we have Missy and Cybermen and I for 1 will not be

    too surprised if Missy/Master is in control.

    A bit worried for Bill.  I think she might morph into a Mondasian?

    #59261
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick This supports my suspicion that the Doctor’s crisis is much more than it seems…that Bill may not actually be due for a grave, but an “operation”.  Can she resist it?  Her mind seems a strong one…I have a hunch somebody’s laid quite the trap for our heroes, going all the way back to that unseen ship in “The Pilot”.

    #59263
    Avatar of WellicanbakeWellicanbake @wellicanbake

    BONKERS. how about Missy isn’t the master. She has been converted by the cyber men to defeat the doctor in the same way that the man was convinced he was the doctor in “the next doctor” would explain the Victorian outfit given from the same era.

     

    #59266
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    I’ve always been bothered by the lack of resolution regarding that Ship and the pilot, although the original source of  the liquid was only a small shuttle from the other evidence on the ground. Nano-liquid and Cyberman nanites ?

    The shuttle landing near the vault ought to mean something ? Surely the Doctor would have investigated (off screen) ?

    @lisa @wellicanbake

    Missy in Control or the Cybermen ? What would have happened in the Gaiman cybermen story a few years back, if the Doctor had submitted to the cyber-nanites, but not been physically converted ? Equally, presumably the conversion nanites could be hacked by Missy ?

    One other thought, the Mondas Cybermen are more primitive (the hospital ward scene suggests its a slow physical process). Does that change things ?

    #59274
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick  I remember another interview with Gomez saying that wherever Missy goes, Cybermen will be also.  She even teased that Missy could be a Cyberman!

    It’s possible the Doctor, Nardole, and Bill simply forgot about the shuttle in the process of saving Bill from Heather and subsequently taking her on as a companion, given that the next two episodes took place in immediate succession.

    I would also think a slower conversion process could make a big difference — especially for poor Bill.   And IIRC from the Doctor Who Magazine preview, the hospital ward is actually on the giant spaceship.  Which is undergoing time dilation that causes thousands of years to pass in one section, but just a few days in another…

    #59282
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    An interesting conceit raised over in the “Eaters of Light” thread is that Missy knows, or at least senses, what is going to happen to the Doctor and company — and that’s why she’s crying.  If indeed she’s teamed up with Saxon, this makes sense, given how multi-Doctor encounters have worked.  She is having premonitions that no matter how much she wants to change, in the end she won’t be able to, and the Doctor will suffer for it even as he lives to fight another day.

    #59284
    Avatar of thane15thane15 @thane15

    @missrori

    Missy killing [an] Osgood in “Death in Heaven” was criticized as being this, as…

    Was it? Not here though, see? That’s why we have this great Forum. I actually don’t read any of the drivel on other sites. It’s usually too upsetting and filled with dumb people so Mum and I find this a ‘haven’.

    I realise this was a post from a few days ago (or more) but I usually don’t read the post if it contains information about what someone else said on some other site! I don’t think that’s a problem for anyone else, naturally, and if you do that and agree or disagree then that’s awesome but I didn’t see Missy killing off Osgood as some sexist/thingy whatever that suggests some ideology is at work, personally. I think that you may be onto something regarding any possible death of Bill Potts. That would annoy people but again if it works really well in the story and  it’s backed up (everyone thinks she’s great here, at least!) then I’d hope to understand it. She’s definitely in all our hearts in the last 7 or 8 episodes. :)  Maybe more effective than even Rose.

    Personally I found Martha very difficult to deal with as a character -and I have to say as a person? Her on- tape -interviews and audio DVD work  came across as waaay too loud and annoying, personally. Also, her being in love with the Doctor was probably not a good plan by RTD, though not surprising. 😉

    Thane

    #59285
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @thane15  Oh, I see your points.  :)  But other sites do have some peppercorns amidst the poo, bringing up — or reminding me of — other reasons Bill Will Live as a Human.  Or, at worst, a Good Cyborg.  😉

    • It would be too similar to Danny Pink’s fate if she became/died as a Cyberman, and just how much will this story be borrowing from the Series 8 finale anyway?
    • Bill fans will get mad if the Doctor doesn’t go as far to save her as he did to save Clara
    • This is a pretty stuffed finale as is, even with an extra 15 minutes for Part Two (2 Masters and their fates, all those Cybermen, Nardole’s fate, the Doctor possibly taking a fatal wound, resolving the Heather situation…)
    • There would be a lot of awkward loose ends for the Doctor to tie up with regards to St. Luke’s, Moira, and Bill’s friends if she died or became a cyborg (“Face the Raven” at least had the deleted script scene that went into such matters for Clara’s loved ones and colleagues).  In fact, what will become of the Doctor’s tenure at St. Luke’s as it is, now that he won’t need to worry about the Vault?
    • He’s already lost Clara and River, and now it looks like he’ll have to let go of Missy.  Nardole’s chances aren’t looking good.  He has no other confidantes at this point unless one counts the TARDIS.  If he loses Bill to the grave on top of all that, this finale will be so much of a downer that the Christmas special will have to really go nuts to be an uplifting rejoinder to it.   By “nuts” I mean something like “all his lost loves and friends come back from the dead because they love him and are so repentant that they died and break his hearts, and the Time Lords welcome him back and make him Lord President of Gallifrey for Eternity and give him another regeneration cycle, and Susan comes back too, and Romana, and…”  😉
    #59287
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    Okay, here’s something bonkers — Bill gets completely Cyber-converted by the time the Doctor arrives.  He bursts into tears…but then she realizes he’s there, and her love for him and his for her completely shakes off the transformation and there’s a ray of hope amidst all the darkness.  Who wouldn’t love that!  :)  <3  <3

    #59289
    Avatar of janetteBjanetteB @janetteb

    As this is where the bonkers theorising is happening I thought I would post this here. Having just watched Eaters of Light I have been pondering the theme of this series, reconciliation of enemies, and it seems likely that this is premeditating the relationship between the Doctor and Missy. If the Doctor forgives Missy then she turns on him and betrays him it would demolish that theme of forgiveness and reconciliation and I am certain that a Moffat etc would not do that. The theme at this point of time, of history, is no coincidence. So Missy and the Doctor must be going to work together at the end. My theory, if any so vague could be called that, is that Missy will ultimately save the Doctor. She may turn on him betraying his trust initially but at the end she will turn back, the lessons he has taught her will pay of and she will save him and “everything”, thus reinforcing the moral of the series.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #59290
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @janetteb  I think your idea would be the most appropriate ending to this season, indeed — and especially in hard times such as these.

    In fact, I would not be surprised at all at this point for the title “The Doctor Falls” to refer to Missy and a final sacrifice, especially given the story’s setup.  Because for one brief shining moment, she really would be the Doctor.  And as Sim-Doctor once said, anyone can be the Doctor if they hold to his principles.  It would still be tragic of course, because he’d lose her and have no guarantees her goodness would hold whenever their paths cross again; he’d lose the last confidant whom can speak and think on his level (save, as I mentioned before, the TARDIS).  But still…for a moment, they really would be friends again.

    I do worry though, because Series 9 didn’t fully bear out one of its themes.  The Doctor’s compassion and forgiveness was a running theme, but it didn’t pay off in “Hell Bent” by being returned in kind when he needed it — at least, not by the characters who needed to show it (as opposed to the Drylanders and soldiers, who were kind to him but hadn’t earned his wrath).  He didn’t forgive Rassilon and the Time Lords, nor Me, for what they did to him —  even after he told Bonnie he could forgive her and that the only way people can live in peace is if they forgive.  Nor did they or Ohila forgive him his “sins” even though they were responsible for him getting to that point to begin with.  Ohila chews him out for showing mercy to Rassilon and his cronies by just exiling them, which is far better than those monsters deserved.  And he shows mercy to the heartless General by just forcing him/her to regenerate instead of killing them for good, but nobody points that out.  Why, one could even say that the Doctor showed mercy to us all by not blowing us all up after no one was there for him in the dial, but no one did!  😉

    #59292
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @janetteB @missrori

    I think there are a lot of quite confusing strands, which suggest the last three parts (including christmas) could go in a lot of different ways. It is certainly multi-master and may be multi-doctor. We may or may not get some cameos (Clara, River, Rose, Capt Jack even if that rumour is true) if Moff present his version of a Tom Baker style regeneration. What about the two regenerations (turning into one perhaps ?). What exactly is Moff’s intention for a “different” regeneration and what is going on with the Doctor’s unusual behaviour in series 10.

    One thing I do feel strongly, is that Missy’s redemption will turn out to be real (although she will never become “Doctor Like”), she will help the Doctor somehow (save him ?) and the Master will reject her as not being one of him and Missy will pay the ultimate price.

    I also feel that neither Bill or Missy will die in the next episode (Moff’s pre-announcement of a Death is likely fake news – thank you Donald – ). It also feels likely that Moff may explain the Doctor/Master relationship (and that it might have something to do with Susan). I would not be surprised if both Missy and Bill fall in the final episode and that this will be the starting point for the Christmas special.

    I don’t think I can rationally support all or even much of this (and JanetteB and missrori your explanations and analysis both connect for me). I can’t wait to find out. Christmas is too far away.

    #59293
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @janetteb  Also, besides the reconciliation theme there has been in the two most recent episodes, there’s also been the theme of releasing people/creatures this season — not only freeing them from bondage, but just letting them go and accepting the end of things on a personal level (as in “The Pilot” and “Knock Knock”).  In “The Eaters of Light” the Doctor’s accused of wanting to avoid his battle with his own personal monster (Missy), but by letting her stay out of the Vault and in his TARDIS instead, he’s coming closer to finally coming to terms with the whole business after decades just keeping her locked away and their relationship not making all that much progress in the interim.  It’s clear that as this story begins he is just saying the heck with it and testing her sincerity — instead of just letting potentially false hope linger in the air, he’s going to see what’s what at last and take it from there.  It’s risky of course, but the “safe” choice of keeping her locked up isn’t doing her or him any good.

    #59295
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick  Yeah, the Doctor will have to have at least one significant personal loss in the finale to lead into Christmas.  But what will it take to bring him back to happiness and contentment after that, to encourage him to keep on living in a new form rather than just lay down and die for good?  Especially when Capaldi said this Doctor will go out fighting?

    I don’t like the idea of the Twelfth Doctor deciding he’s not “good enough” as he currently is and choosing to regenerate into something “better”, because that does a disservice to him and his character arc.  He tried as hard as any Doctor ever did to live up to the impossible ideals he set for himself, even against some of the most crushing losses any Doctor ever knew (bar Eight and War, both special cases in terms of their sorrows).  He loved whom he loved with great passion and tenderness.  He deserves to be held in the high esteem of those who came before him (if not higher).

    Perhaps if Bill does die in “The Doctor Falls”, he will find a way to bring her back from the grave as his last noble, Doctor-y act in the Christmas show…succeeding where he could not with Clara.  Or some angel comes along to show him how awful things would have been had the Twelfth Doctor not been around (the It’s a Wonderful Life conceit), or someone repays him a long overdue debt.

    #59297
    Avatar of thane15thane15 @thane15

    @missrori

    de ja vu!

    Remember how last year and this year you were saying the same things? The Doctors kindness was never returned and he should have killed the general for good and do more than exile Rassilon?

    I’m pretty sure on the Hell Bent thread a few of us spoke about how the people gave him soup? How the soldiers didn’t shoot him? How the General understood? Also Lady me was made immortal so that her “husband became so old he didn’t recognise” [her] =doctor’s fault. Also, the Doctor is a man of mercy, he remains unarmed and is convince exiling the Council is justice enough. And I tend to agree with that.

    I see this show as really nuanced. In one line or tiny scene, the pay off happens? But personally  we all have to pay attention otherwise it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking  “no-one cares” about the Doctor when we know Missy does, we know Clara does, Lady Me, and River who had a lot of time with her husband and he with her: not many people are so fortunate and so lucky. He’s lived  a good life and “life has paid him out well.”

    Thankyou, Thane15

    #59298
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @thane15  Oh, I know.  I was trying to say that — the Doctor did show mercy to Rassilon, etc. but no one seemed to notice/appreciate what he was doing and just treated him as the bad guy (especially Ohila) when he could have been a lot worse.  Kind as the Drylanders and soldiers were to him, that’s not an issue of mercy or forgiveness — just gratitude, decency and kindness.  Which is important too of course.  :)

    The ending seemed to be pointing to the Doctor completely burying the hatchet with the Time Lords and both sides forgiving each other; why would they not?  Why did the Doctor choose to hold his grudge with Me when he could forgive Bonnie?  Questions, questions.  Also, the Doctor did the right thing by saving Me’s life, and meant well.  Intentions are always the most important thing, right?

    #59301
    Avatar of WellicanbakeWellicanbake @wellicanbake

    @missrori

    OK building on your idea. What if Bill is injured and on the verge of dying and the only way to save even part of her is to allow her to get converted.

    #59304
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @wellicanbake  Well, it certainly would be an interesting way to see her off of the show, given that it’s looking unlikely she’ll be in Series 11 (at this point).  If the Cyber-Brigadier could fly off to new adventures, and “reformed” Cybermen dwell on Mayor Me’s trap street, Bill Potts might have a future as a Cyberman, perhaps traveling the universe in tandem with the Heather Creature.  It would still be a heartbreaking experience for the Doctor, of course — while he would save her life, he would certainly feel he failed her in some way (though she might not think the same way…she does love sci-fi) and have to take care of cleaning up her loose ends on Earth.  I think someone suggested (as a joke) on Reddit that she could become Handles 2.0!

    Again though, giving Bill a fate like Cyber-conversion or death-for-realsies would be unfair to her (and her fans)  after all her revival-era predecessors, and most of the original series companions, were separated from the Doctor in ways that may have been painful but still allowed them to have lives to live out afterwards.  Add in the fact that she’s a minority character in more ways than one in a lineup of mostly white, heterosexual characters, and her being the one who gets the short end of the straw fate-wise would hit a bum note.  And this Doctor’s had enough loss as it is; let him lose Missy, let him lose Nardole, but spare him his pupil at least, and let her make up her own mind as to what to do next.

    Maybe she could just get partially converted, and effectively become a superheroine who can have adventures on her own?  Or even just return to an ordinary life on Earth, just with a wild secret to hide?

    (Deposits $0.02)

    #59306
    Avatar of WellicanbakeWellicanbake @wellicanbake

    @missrori

    It could even be Missy who converts her to save her when the doctor can’t. as she sees it she saves bill and can’t understand why the doctor doesn’t see it that way. Missy then distraught at the doctors rejection of her grand gesture reverts to her old ways.

    #59309
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @wellicanbake Great idea that!  And then the Doctor must find a way to restore Bill to normal…what might that be?  A buzz with the sonic, perhaps?  The power of love, as I suggested?  Any other ideas ?  :)

    #59310
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    Actually, maybe that will be the plot of the Christmas show — the Doctor finding a way to restore Bill to humanity.  In the end Twelve gives up his lifeforce to her, and as she returns to normal, he becomes Thirteen.  (awwww)

    Or he goes back to Gallifrey and challenges the Time Lords to restore her with all their powers.  Instead of just blindly defying the fates, he appeals to their better natures and makes them realize that all creatures great and small are important, and they heal Bill.  (awwww)

    (sigh)  I know I’ve been crazy with ideas today, but that’s the curse of an autistic Whovian with too much time on her hands when cliffhangers are in the air!  😉 😀

    #59312
    Avatar of ichabodichabod @ichabod

    @missrori  An interesting conceit raised over in the “Eaters of Light” thread is that Missy knows, or at least senses, what is going to happen to the Doctor and company — and that’s why she’s crying.

    I’m getting that vibe too — she’s something like the Raven, a force of destruction that’s not fully in control of her own trajectory.  @janneteb  If the Doctor forgives Missy then she turns on him and betrays him it would demolish that theme of forgiveness and reconciliation   Or — it would show how there’s always that *risk*, when enemies join forces, of betrayal, so choosing to help instead of attacking each other is also an act of courage, hope, and trust.

    @thane15  I actually don’t read any of the drivel on other sites. It’s usually too upsetting and filled with dumb people so Mum and I find this a ‘haven’.

    Heck, me too — I’ve pretty much stopped going onto other sites; wish some of those folks would “grow the Hell up”, and of course they will; but meanwhile, they’re too annoying.  Did you see that Gatiss said something in an interview the other day about how being tapped for some major task in DW is not just an honor and a delight, but “a poisoned chalice”?  Huh.  He should know!

    @missrori  Intentions are always the most important thing, right?

    I’d say that’s generally true, since nobody can know, when they take an action, what its reverberations down through time will bring.  In that sense, every action is heroic (and that includes every inaction, too).

    @wellicanbake  I think that might work very well — they’ll want to give Missy a big send-off, too, since Gomez’s “Mistress” has been such a success and a favorite.  Maybe Bill gets her conclusion (I’m betting on Heather, myself) in the next episode, leaving the finale to the Doctor and MissMaster?

    #59313
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @ichabod

    Or — it would show how there’s always that *risk*, when enemies join forces, of betrayal, so choosing to help instead of attacking each other is also an act of courage, hope, and trust.

    This is very true, but right now in this troubled world, perhaps a more idealistic theme is needed than this (i.e. she betrays but atones)?  Courage and trust are in very short supply in our world these days.  It’s why the needy aren’t helped, the battle lines drawn…

    This is one reason why I feel the Doctor shouldn’t be left completely bereft at the end of “The Doctor Falls”.  If he once again shows his virtue in extremis leads only for it to lead to loss and sorrow for him, because the universe is so cold and unfeeling…why would anyone be inspired to join his struggle?  :/

    #59315
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @ichabod again  — I think “World Enough and Time” won’t have, as it were, time to give Bill a proper sendoff — especially because she’d be abandoning the Doctor in his and the universe’s time of need, and Bill is not that kind of person, especially at this point.  Assuming she won’t be in the Christmas show (and if she’s not in Series 11 she won’t be there for Xmas, because again, why would she leave the Doctor in his time of need?), “The Doctor Falls” will be her sendoff, what with the extra time for the denouement.

    #59319
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    If John Simm Master regenerates into Missy whilst next to Missy, could that cause Paradoxical Time Damage or The Blinovitch Limitation Effect?

    regen

    #59322
    Avatar of DevilishrobbyDevilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Arrrrgh just lost a post because I didn’t realise I wasn’t logged in so here goes again….

    Had a  bit of a bonkers thought prompted by a notification when some one who used the “who nose” comment from the 50th aniversary

    I thought what if the Sims Master we are to see is not the past Sims Master but as speculated after the 50th anniversary Baker/Curator a future regeneration using the same face. It would certainly solve the problem that Missy must know what is about  to happen and has just been stringing the Doctor along if he is is indeed the past Sims Master. Though if as I’ve previously speculated Missy is actually a pre Jacobi Master then she won’t have pre knowledge of the upcoming events. Oh this timey whimy thinking is giving me a headache

    #59324
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed
    #59325
    Avatar of RorySmithRorySmith @rorysmith

    I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned. I try to read as much into the posts as possible buy you guys write a lot.

    Supernatural has killed off Crowley.

    Could Mark Shepherd take a lead role or is he too happy being a support actor? If he was chosen as the Doctor, it would be a push since he is 53 and they have hinted at a younger actor. Mark would be brilliant.

    #59326
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @wolfweed

    Cheers for those. Doesn’t Simm look great as an proper old school Master? And I might be biased, but those pics just prove my point that the Mondasian Cybermen were far and away the creepiest versions. Interesting though that there are various versions involved though. I’m assuming some time distortion chicanery, perhaps something to do with that black hole might be involved. Possibly that’s why we’re seeing different Masters too.

    #59327
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    @JimTheFish  I concur. Plus he’s tooled up with laser screwdriver… Hope we don’t get Yoda-Capaldi!

    masterly

     

    #59330
    Avatar of nerysnerys @nerys

    I’m probably bonkerizing on something completely obvious (as in, too obvious to be happening). But if they’re bringing back John Simm as the Master, then is it possible they’re bringing back David Tennant as the Doctor? What with Chibnall taking over the reins, and all? Nah! IMDb shows him as being pretty busy and committed to other projects for the forseeable future, so I know I’m reaching.

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