Spoilers (3)

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  • #59337
    Wellicanbake @wellicanbake

    OK 2 opposite ideas here.

    1 Simms is a revisit of a previous regeneration so that we all think we might get a familiar face return for the doctor.

    Or

    2 and I like this; for Missy Simm hasn’t happened yet. And the bringing the master back to fight in the time war hasn’t happened yet because the time war simms refers to has yet to happen.

    Also I assumed that Simm line give me kiss was because Missy was about kiss the doctor.

    Also Missy is locked out of the TARDIS controls. Would Simms be locked out to?

    #59341
    MissRori @missrori

    With regard to the released pictures, Fansided pointed out that Bill now has a skull iron-on patch on her “Pilot” jacket (next to the Wow! one).  The writer suspects that this is a sign Bill is going to die-for-real in “World Enough and Time”, but I thought of the comments made here about the Doctor’s skull on the chalkboard in “Oxygen”, and how skulls = Master in a way.  I think there might be some red herrings in the water.  😉

    I also thought of another reason Bill probably will survive.  While a character like Danny Pink (or Nardole…) dying for good is the sort of thing the Doctor can cope with in the course of a 2-part finale, him losing his beloved student/surrogate granddaughter Bill would be a lot more devastating, especially after Clara and River (and before that Amy and Rory).

    Now, if “World Enough and Time” were a one-off episode with a tidy ending, followed by an episode or two like “The Snowmen” and “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent” in which he was clearly struggling with the loss of Bill and finding a way to move on, then her death and its effect on the Doctor would receive their proper dramatic weight.  But “World Enough and Time” is the first half of a multi-Master/several generations of Cybermen finale that will also effectively bring the Doctor and Missy’s relationship to an end.  (Michelle Gomez has straight-up noted in the Radio Times out today that Missy is not in the Christmas show.)  Losing that relationship will be painful enough for the Doctor and he’ll have to angst over that in “The Doctor Falls” on top of helping to save the universe, and Moffat’s comment that this storyline will be “a bloodbath” suggest a full-out war with mass casualties on both sides.

    So if Bill were to die as well in the course of this adventure, when would he have a chance to process that death properly and ensure that she wasn’t just regarded by him and the narrative as an “expendable”, lesser companion to him than Clara was?  The Twelfth Doctor only has the as-yet-untitled Christmas episode after “The Doctor Falls”, and if it’s going to be as inspiring and uplifting as Moffat has promised — which is tricky just because it ends with the hero “dying”, and Capaldi says he’s going to go down fighting — it can’t focus on the Doctor brooding over another dead companion.

    Radio Times suggested Bill’s death could play into Thirteen’s personality/backstory, make him reluctant to take on more companions after all the sorrow Twelve went through, but this would work against the “clean slate” concept Chibnall seems to be going with for Series 11.  I think the BBC is getting desperate to course-correct what they see as a major drop in the franchise’s mainstream popularity and acclaim in the Capaldi era and want to go with a complete, “modern”, “youthful” rebranding and overhaul of it with Thirteen, which would mean not invoking much of the recent continuity and effectively treating it as a whole new show again.

    #59342
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Syfy trailer with extra scenes

    #59346
    MissRori @missrori

    Thanks for the latest clips @wolfweed!

    And I just had a bonkers-beyond-bonkers idea.  What if…what if the Mondasian Cybermen here aren’t straight-up evil?  The story does go into their origins as what they originally were, people desperate to survive by any means necessary?  As opposed to the upgrading, deleting warlords of the later generations, whom they meet up with here…

    It would fit in so well with this season’s run of antagonists, especially robots/creatures, who aren’t necessarily blackhearted.  (Even the Eater of Light and its kin were just hungry.) It would be a fascinating parallel with the Missy and Harold Saxon Masters teaming up and yet perhaps coming to blows…past and present, the changes that come with Time.  And what an awful, futile war might result in — and hasn’t that been a theme of this season too, especially the last two episodes?  And it would explain the promo shot of the Mondasian Cyberman emerging from the shattered wooden doorway, followed by the Doctor….

    #59350
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @missrori

    I think the Cyberman shown interacting with the Doctor in several publicity photos may well be Cyber-Bill. With her body converted, I expect her soul to be liberated by Heather, and they travel the universe together forever.

    That fits the themes of the series, of “enemies” not being evil, and of release and freedom.

    #59351
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @frobisher — ooh, I like that theory a lot. The whole Cyber-converted Bill concept seems a little bit too close to the fate of Danny Pink for my liking so I do hope they do something different with it.

    I do think that we will get a more uplifting end to the Capaldi era than some on here are predicting though.

    And I’m not convinced that the curious lapses in the Doctor’s behaviour this year are any kind of a plan but are more likely just indicative of writers still struggling to get a handle on his Doc at certain points.

    @missrori–

    And I just had a bonkers-beyond-bonkers idea.  What if…what if the Mondasian Cybermen here aren’t straight-up evil?

    Well, the original Cybermen weren’t really. They were interesting, I think, in that they were doing clearly bad things firmly in the belief they were doing good, that they represented progress and were genuinely mystified as to why people couldn’t see that. The trailer looks very much like they’re channelling the audio stories Spare Parts (again) and it’ll be interesting to see just to what extent.

    It certainly seems as if there’s going to be a lot going on for the next two episodes.

    #59353
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @jimthefish @missrori

    I think Cyber-Bill has been foreshadowed by the temporary zombiefication of Bill in Oxygen, and Heather taking on a form similar to a Cyberman head during The Pilot. In fact, could Heather actually know what the future holds for Bill, and was trying to warn her/save her in The Pilot? She let Bill go, allowing her to follow her own path. Now fate re-unites them?

    #59354
    MissRori @missrori

    @frobisher: I’ve wondered about the possibility of Cyber-Bill too with those photos, and having Heather Creature rescue her — perhaps with the Doctor’s help — for a bittersweet ending could work.  On the other hand, wouldn’t that be a retread of Clara and Me going off together in “Hell Bent”?  I think Moffat’s painting himself into a corner if he’s going to Cyber-convert Bill — it’s either going to be too much like “Death in Heaven” or too much like “Hell Bent”.

    @jimthefish, I agree that the Doctor’s odd moments this season probably aren’t part of a larger plan, but just the lapses in writing that occasionally pop up — and, in the case of the false regeneration, perhaps a need to come up with a red herring for promotional materials.

    As for how uplifting the end of this era can be…

    I strongly suspect Nardole won’t survive this finale, so if the Twelfth Doctor does lose Bill to Cyber-conversion (even if she is rescued by Heather), all three of his companions will have effectively died on his watch, despite loopholes and wiggle room.  And that’s on top of his losing River Song.  It would be the worst track record for a Doctor in the televised canon, and between that and the tragic end of his and Missy’s relationship, it would be a terribly depressing way to head into the Christmas show, especially with a near six month wait in between it and “The Doctor Falls”.  And as I noted, losing Bill would have to plunge him into a depression ala losing Clara to ensure that her death isn’t shortchanged in terms of the narrative, and there’s no time for that with only three episodes left.

    It’s possible that if Bill dies/”dies” she will absolve him of any guilt and sorrow before she goes, as it won’t be his fault his plan went so wrong but that of the baddies, so the Doctor will have less reason to mourn.  Perhaps she’ll even tell him it’s better this way; what did she have to go back to on Earth?  But still…

    I’d rather Bill survive the finale even if she leaves for good with Heather (because yeah, they have to tie that off), so the Doctor won’t be completely bereft and feeling like this particular life was a failure.  Maybe the Doctor will find a way to reverse the Cyber-conversion, even, as I suggested above.  A wave of the sonic, a little regeneration energy, maybe just the power of love.

    He needs to have his day in the sun at last, since his previous finales didn’t allow that.  But I don’t know how the Christmas show can make things up to him if this finale is as tragic as Moffat says it will be.  How do you think that will happen, @jimthefish?

    Will Clara return to him, repentant for abandoning her soulmate, and in affirming their love the Hybrid prophecy will be happily fulfilled?  Will his people forgive him for his actions in “Hell Bent”, which weren’t his fault but theirs?  Will every grave in the universe give birth to those who loved him so he won’t be alone as he dies?  Will he and Susan have a happy reunion?

    #59356
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Now I kind of agree that part of the finale is quite probably going to involve the fall of Missy and from the evidence of various trailers Missy appears to to be teaming up with Sims Master possibly meaning she falls/reverts to being evil again and this is the meaning of the Doctor falls, but remember guys and gals this is Moffat we’re talking about and to paraphrase “the Moffat Lies”. Moffat would surely not let any clips previews out that are going to give major plot elements away.

    What if instead we have a Missy “playing up” to the Master in order foil his plan just as she has done unsuccessfully with the Doctor in the past and she is literally going to fall….. to her death. This would very possibly tie into the fact that Michelle Gomez has stated she is leaving the show after this season. Of course Michelle could be misdirecting us especially she has only said she is leaving as Missy and the riff we have seen in the next time clip where she exits the Tardis introducing hereself as the Doctor might be a not so subtle hint as to her actually being the next Doctor as some have speculated.

    #59357
    MissRori @missrori

    Advance preview copies of the episode are already going out!  Here’s one article from mymbuzz.com with 20 hints.

    “World Enough and Time” Preview

    Yep, Cyber-Bill looks like a strong possibility.  Fans are already starting the mourning at Tumblr and Reddit, some saying this will be the most gruesome fate in companion history (and if that’s the case, I think it will be hugely controversial because it just had to happen to the black LGBT woman didn’t it?).  But why telegraph it so much in the promos then?

    According to the reviewer this episode is more about Bill and Missy than the Doctor, and it’s relatively small-scale on the way to setting up epic-ness in “The Doctor Falls”.  Also, there are two big cliffhanger-worthy moments leading into the actual cliffhanger.   AND the preview copies have deleted one scene so no one will be able to spoil it, but it isn’t that cliffhanger!  The reviewer has no clue from the rest of the episode what that mystery scene is.

    #59360
    Anonymous @

    @missrori @jimthefish

    I must admit to being perplexed at this humanising of the Doctor! 🙂

    MissR  you and I have been going back a long way with this -all the way back to 2015! The Doctor has feelings. We know it. We know the 10th Doctor mentioned children, a wife, grandchildren even. He has lost many companions or they have lost him?

    Yes, he’s very old but as a TL he knows those secrets and the habit of losing companions is to be expected. I do wonder if other sites (I wouldn’t know) either over-relate to the Doctor or, worse, see themselves in the Doctor:

    “he’s lost so much, on the back of River and Clara, or Rose… finding a way to move on, ….he’ll have to angst over that…when would he have a chance to process that death properly …. and if it’s going to be as inspiring and uplifting as Moffat has promised — which is tricky just because it ends with the hero “dying”, and Capaldi says he’s going to go down fighting — it can’t focus on the Doctor brooding over..”

    Call me cold hearted but if  you’re with the Doctor, near him, or pass through his way, it’s inevitable that blood will be spilt -and brains too (though I doubt the latter’s happening).

    I tend to look at the optimistic things and the great fortune this alien, the Doctor has had? So maybe not cold hearted but practical -and grateful?  Yes he grieved in the clouds after Amy and Rory and has been mourning River (to a point) but he had many wonderful adventures with her, she knew when she was going to die -hence handcuffing him to the machine and wiring herself in so that he wouldn’t “re-write one line. Don’t you dare!”

    He had 24 years on Darillium with her -more than most people ever have. I don’t think, on top of this, that the universe owes him anything and interestingly he doesn’t want much from it either.

    Nonetheless in The Wedding of River Song, she tersely explained  she’d called out to the universe asking for help and it was there for the Doctor: “across all time and space.”  And he was annoyed she did that!

    So how lucky is he?

    Extremely, imo.  😀

    “People at reddit or tumblr are mourning Bill” ??  Gawd. Thane (at 15) stays away from those places. Mind you, he’s intensely busy so that could be one reason!

    Kindest, Puro.

    #59363
    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15, Peter Capaldi has this to say to the Radio Times in his latest interview, when asked “How would you describe your Doctor?”

    The Doctor is deeply sad — I think he always has been.  When you’re wise and you’ve lived a very long time, that’s how you’d be.  Although you have to be careful with very human emotions and the Doctor because he’s an alien.  It’s more straightforward to play the human elements, but then it might as well be a cop show.

    So maybe the truth is in the middle?  😉

    Anyhoo, I’m hoping that this finale won’t be as grim as it looks.  This is a family show after all, and for all the drama I think/hope there will be an uplifting twist or two to lead us into the Christmas episode.

    And even if he loses Bill, she of all people probably won’t hold her fate against him.  It won’t be his fault, and she loves being with him.  Maybe she’ll like being a Cyberman if worst comes to worst!  A surprise companion for Christmas!  She could live forever with him too, and he need never fear loneliness again.  Just the occasional tune-up.  😀

    Edit: I know many sweet people on Tumblr myself.  But I think they’re jumping to conclusions.  All those Cybermen in the promo pics look taller than Bill in relation to the Doctor.  😉

    #59364
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The previews for WEAT sent out have had a scene redacted (& not the closing one)…..

     

    If I can manage not to be spoilered on how the Master shows up by Saturday I’ll be a happy chappie.

     

    Be warned. This one is potentially a RUINER

    (Though why make any mention on ‘Breakfast’ at all then?)

    Maybe put a tasteful screen over the rest of this post……………………………………………….

     

     

     

     

     

     

     Samantha Spiro…

    Noticed that she is not in the Radio Times cast list for this Saturday…

    ss

    I saw this interview at the time. Since Extremis I’ve thought she looked like Pope Benedict (but kept schtum until now) so it’s probably just that… (I mention it now so that people don’t assume she’s the new REDACTED or the new REDACTED….

    #59365
    MissRori @missrori

    @wolfweed  Ahhhhh.  Yes, I heard about this too and wondered.  Indeed…indeed.

    #59366
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    For all those worried about Bill being turned into a Cyberperson, keep in mind the Star Trek Next Generation two-parter where Picard was turned into a Borg…temporarily.

    #59369
    MissRori @missrori

    @blenkinsopthebrave Ah, yes!  Good point.  What’s everyone think of Saxon’s new threads, by the by?  Looking sharp!

    #59370
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Bonkers – New Dr will be played by Lassie, whilst new Master will be played by The Littlest Hobo…

    cosmic hobo

    #59374
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed @missrori

    Are we sure she is in this week’s episode (and not in the week afters) ?

    The absence of a character name could only be because its a recognisable name. Another Master would be feasible (but three in an episode ?) but the new Doc option would be very surprising as it would over shadow the final part and the christmas special too much. A new Susan then ? (other time lords possibilities as well.).

    Something else to look forward to in any case.

     

    #59377
    Wellicanbake @wellicanbake

    Crazy though:

    The pilot episode points to extremely advanced technology possibly linked to the cyber men. This episode clearly shows a much less developed cybermen. What if the pilot is further along the time line and as such we hit the paradox that in order to save/stop something the doctor has to disrupt things that stops the very event that brought him and Bill together.

    #59378
    Nick @nick

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    The thought had crossed my mind as well. I think the odds are still more on Missy than Bill at this stage. Moff said the final episode was going to be a bloodbath or something similar. I expect the last episode will have the biggest sting to it, to set the path for Christmas and then into Chibnall’s hard restart.

    I also remember (back in RTD time) that Simm wanted to do something different with the Master than RTD had allowed him to. I hope that we’ll see an extended, occasional run of him in this role, rather than some new casting.

    #59379
    Nick @nick

    @wellicanbake

    That seems possible  to me. The photo’s from the episode also show a more modern Cybermen as well as the Mondas ones, which suggests something more complex. I suggested the liquid could be filled with cyber-nanites.

    #59380
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @nick – Just an observation (About RT listing). She’ll either be in this week’s or next week’s or both. As I say, most likely playing the old REDACTED

    #59381
    MissRori @missrori

    @nick  Good question on that!  And yeah, I think there is some very timey-wimey stuff going on.

    What I have just found out from a Cultbox report — they got in touch with the BBC — is that the scene that did not appear in early screeners is the opening scene of the episode.  It should appear in later screeners, interestingly enough.  Curiouser and curiouser!

    Cultbox article

    #59382
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missrori  (BBC) want to go with a complete, “modern”, “youthful” rebranding and overhaul of it with Thirteen, which would mean not invoking much of the recent continuity and effectively treating it as a whole new show again.

    I think they want to go in that direction, yes, but with — Chibnall?  Doesn’t seem like a realistic fit, to me . . . I know what you mean, though.  I hate to think we’ll get a massive re-boot based on total negation of what the AG writers and runners have done with DW.  Complete — disrespect.  But what am I thinking?  It’s TV, after all . . .

    @wofweed  Thanks for the clip!  and I think the bonkerizing is going very well here, I’m happy to say.

    #59383
    MissRori @missrori

    @ichabod  Thanks for the compliment on how bonkers we’re getting!  😉

    As for retooling, well, I guess the overnight ratings in the U.K. have been hitting all-time lows these past few weeks.  And the kid-oriented tie-in magazine Doctor Who Adventures just announced it would “pause” publication after this month’s issue.  Doctor Who has a strong fanbase of people like us right now, but it just can’t keep pace with all the “hotter, sexier” sci-fi and fantasy shows/franchises in the mainstream consciousness.  Look at how poorly represented Twelve is in the merchandising.  I go to general-interest conventions and to look at the cosplayers and fanart, one would think Eleven was still the most recent Doctor.  (It’s very different at Chicago TARDIS.)

    I get the feeling that a lot of viewers who loved Ten and Eleven couldn’t accept Twelve, especially if they didn’t have much interest in the original series.  He didn’t hit the ground running fully-formed; his character development was complex and slowly unfolded.  He wasn’t ready with a sackful of catchphrases, he wasn’t effortlessly charming.  And he was “old”.  His relationship with Clara was deeply moving, but many people couldn’t see past the lines on his face.  And given that his story arcs have been more clouds than sunshine, with the occasional cloudburst…it’s not “magical” anymore, to a certain breed of viewer.  I learned that the hard way last year at WizardWorld Chicago; the “Doctor Who Ultimate Fan Panel” discussed Twelve very little in favor of Ten and Eleven and a little bit of Nine.

    It’s truly heartbreaking, but I don’t see how Twelve will ever be as loved by the masses as his predecessors.

    #59386
    Nick @nick

    @missrori @ichabod

    My opinion is worth nothing, so here goes !

    A hard restart implies a new Doctor and companion and no direct continuity, but then to a greater or lesser extent that is always true. I guess Chibnall has a different proposition, in the way that RTD’s was different from BG Who and Moff’s from RTD’s.

    The total audience figures arent that different between Matt and Peter, but there certainly is less of a squee factor with Peter and a darker tone as well. That’s perhaps a nod towards a slighter older audience ? A little more introspection with Peter ?

    I guess Chibnall, will go for more up tempo, more adventure and probably slightly less complex stories (more RTD like) to try and get back to something more David/Matt like in terms of audience appreciation. I dont think the story arcs will go, but may be more pervasive in each story than before (I suspect the muted writers room approach for coming up with stories tends to make it easier to a get a common theme into each story).

    The BBC obviously saw Chibnall as a safe pair of hands, but they and he would have wanted more than that. The BBC would have wanted the bring back the buzz they had with Matt and a lighter tone. What does Chibbers want to do though ?

    #59387
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    I looked back and can see the similarity to the picture outside the library. I must be too dumb to get your hint though ! 🙂

    #59389
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @nick  If the actress is playing that character, then the past 5  episodes could turn out to have been ‘Bobby Ewing in the shower’. That’d be one way to piss off most of the audience!

    [Maybe I should REDACT this next bit…?]

    I think that if it’s her (& she’s real in the actual Who universe) the theme returned to will be what she offered the Doctor all that time ago which he refused… Perhaps he will finally accept in the end…….

    Say no more.

    do you wish to REDACTED?

     

    #59390
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    In fact, all new episodes should begin with the Dr & Bill reading out truly random numbers to confirm that they are in the real world.

    random

    #59391
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I’ve just remembered – The actress’ Spotlight CV said she’d be playing a character called Hazran [meaning versatility, enthusiasm, agility and unconventional methods] (until it was later edited out)…

    So I’ve probably been barking up the wrong forest. Fun theories though…

    #59393
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Tom Rosenthal is the new favourite for no. 13 @ the bookies. Well, he does look a bit like Chibbers, & he has ‘Thal’ in his name…

    tom r

    #59395
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    I dont think the character’s name necessarily rules your idea out at all.  It must (! ?) be a name we’d know or there wouldnt be a point in hiding it. Therefore your idea can be 100 % right, but there’s another depth we dont know yet.

    #59397
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Daily Express are saying Capaldi has just dropped a massive spoiler about the regeneration. Dunno what it is as I haven’t looked . Don’t want to know.

    I suppose it’s time to leave the spoilers thread until January…….

    ex

    Sigh*

    #59399
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Lol @wolfweed just read the article because your comment intrigued me wasn’t worth the bother nothing really new was said

     

    #59400
    ichabod @ichabod

    @nick  I guess Chibnall, will go for more up tempo, more adventure and probably slightly less complex stories (more RTD like) to try and get back to something more David/Matt like in terms of audience appreciation.

    Yep, that’s what I’m expecting too.  Moffat said someplace that he had to talk Chibnall into taking it on at all, so who knows what it all means for the future; except that if it goes as I think it will, I’ll probably wander off again — not moaning and grousing, just recognizing that “some things end — because they have to.”   And the times, they are a-changing.  And, of course, so is the self.  I’d be one of the older DT audience that needs some depth to hold my attention, and I think that puts me into a sort of “side-show” category (speaking of .02 and not-even-that’s-worth) that just sort of accreted by accident with the AG show and won’t be missed (certainly not by the BBC) when it fades out.

    Okay; but not YET, by damn!

    #59401
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @devilishrobby  Phew!  I went & looked. The Daily Express really should be done under the Trades Description Act for it’s headlines.

    Here’s the actual headline:

    ‘Doctor Who season 10: Peter Capaldi reveals MASSIVE spoiler about complicated regeneration.’

    It should read:

    ‘Steven Moffat gave medium-sized spoiler away a couple of days ago (nothing to do with regeneration). Peter Capaldi gave away nothing whatsoever.’

    t d a

    I refrained from posting the Moffat spoiler when I read it the other day, as it would curb a lot of current bonkerising (& I don’t think anybody else on here has mentioned it)…

    #59402
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    I just read that 5 minutes ago after the reading the Daily Express nonsense. I shan’t say anything either.

    #59403
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @nick  Maybe the aforementioned actress will be all of the above. Now that would be complicated…

    #59404
    Nick @nick

    @ichabod

    I really hope not !

    I dont think Chibnall needs to be all doom and gloom. For example, looking back to BG Who, especially the earlier Doctors, the Doctor had a degree of reckless curiosity that got him into trouble. He had to investigate to find out what was going on and there were few short cuts (the sonic opened door mostly). The Doctor wasnt angst ridden either. With the reboot, Chibnall has the chance to change the fundamental basis. The characterisation may become lighter, but as Broadchurch shows, he does have an interest in doing complex emotion driven stories. I dont think it’ll become frothy nonsense.

    #59405
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    As they’ve hidden it is must be godsmacking (or is that me getting too enthusiastic), but I really cant see how a few minutes early on, isnt reflected in the rest of the episode.

    I agree with you, that idea would be complicated, but rather exciting too.

    #59406
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @nick I just flicked backwards through time in the Spoilers thread & made a fun correlation.

    In my post #57625  Pearl Mackie says in the video ‘Maybe it’s the Doctor’s Granddaughter in the Vault?’

    I had fun imagining that this was a double bluff – i.e. true. This would go along with your theory of post #59252 where you posit that Missy is in fact Susan! Ha!

    Fun times…

    miss-y susan

    #59407
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Rule 1# Moffat lies.

     

    Still not posting that spoiler though.

    #59408
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @wolfweed

    No teasing…

    #59410
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @blenkinsopthebrave – Sorry – Not trying to tease. Known for days & said nothing. I’d rather not have come across it. I don’t know why Moffat revealed it. It’s nothing particularly exciting. Just a definite RUINER. I’m merely trying to convince myself it ain’t necessarily so…….

    If people want to find out, I’ve revealed a ‘Rag’ you can read it in…..

    #59411
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    Wow. Great memory. That was a surprise having watched it. Its plausible as a jokey wind up for the fans, but such a strange place to say it. I shall try my best not to get my hopes up. How would that play into the redacted scene as a theory ! ?

    On the spoiler thing, whilst I can believe its correct, it could also be the biggest red herring as well.

    #59412
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @nick

    ‘No, Luke….. I am your granddaughter…..’

    vader

    #59413
    Nick @nick

    @wolfweed

    I’m still giggling 🙂

    #59414
    lisa @lisa

    @wolfweed             @nick

     

    They look like twins!    Miss/Master  and the Doctor go back together to when they were kids.

    Miss/Master apparently had a daughter and the Doctor a grand daughter.

    Some amazing awesomeness if this is where it’s going!

    #59423
    janetteB @janetteb

    @wolfweed and @nick so tempting, so tempting but I will be good and wait. I like spoilers not ruiners. I speculated right at the start that we might finally be meeting up with Susan this series. (But then I have been suggesting that for several series. Guess I will eventually be right.) I have always had the feeling that Moffat has been holding the “fan boy” in check a little but this being his final series he is letting rip. fingers crossed, not because I particularly liked the character of Susan, but because she is an unsolved mystery which now demands some answers. Two unsolved mysteries actually and a broken promise. Who is she and what became of her after the Doctor left her on earth and will he ever keep that promise.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #59424
    geoffers @geoffers

    @nick

    something you said on the last page got me to thinking…

    I also feel that neither Bill or Missy will die in the next episode (Moff’s pre-announcement of a Death is likely fake news – thank you Donald – ). It also feels likely that Moff may explain the Doctor/Master relationship (and that it might have something to do with Susan). I would not be surprised if both Missy and Bill fall in the final episode and that this will be the starting point for the Christmas special.

    i wonder if moff has the guts to have the doctor (“kill”) force the simm-master to regenerate, to turn him into missy (also assuming he’s figured out that’s the direction it’ll go)… who he then could send away (or she escapes), without knowing her future self is somewhere near? but then, later, somehow… missy gets killed by a bad guy, maybe, and reveals that she has no regenerations left?! we’ve seen the doctor face his own real death (and be saved from it by clara), but perhaps the master’s ultimate death is a fixed point, and we get to witness that on twelve’s watch?

    ** i made myself very sad with these thoughts **

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