Spoilers (3)

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    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15 wrote:

    “the Doctor Falls” -I mean, how else can you read that except he really falls.

    What if it turns out to be technically incomplete, though?  “The Doctor Falls…

    …No More”  😉

    Frobisher @frobisher

    @thane15 @missrori

    Ah ha! Yes! I too have been pondering that. Like “Gallifrey Falls… No More” I am expecting some sort of Moff twist on The Doctor Falls. What could that be?

    One can fall in love (but River is gone).

    One can fall for a trick or a lie (hello Missy).

    One can fall to the dark side (Bill… <wheeze> I am your father…<wheeze>).

    What could it mean, other than the obvious?

    It does bring to mind the demise of D4 though, in which The Master played a part…

    Frobisher @frobisher

    And one can fall into depression. Which may fit with the It’s a Wonderful Life theory.

    MissRori @missrori

    @frobisher Exactly!  And one can fall to an enemy…(perhaps the regeneration begins as a cliffhanger?)

    Or fall into the blackest pit…

    Also, which Doctor falls?

    The Doctor is a title, after all, and anyone can be the Doctor so long as they don’t give up…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Readthrough for the Xmas Spesh took place yesterday…


    ichabod @ichabod

    @jimthefish  if I ever see Barrowman again in Who it might be enough to tip me over the edge. For me Captain Jack will always be a potentially interesting character ruined by casting someone who couldn’t really act in the role.

    Both character and actor drove me nuts.  To me, it looked as if something interesting was — pretending to happen there, but neither writing nor performance gave it life.  It just felt like some annoyingly intrusive distraction, but I’d have to be paid actual money to watch Capt. Jack again.  He’s got a Broadway stage musical smash-it-out-to-the-balcony style that puts me off.

    @thane15  Puro  Adlai Stevenson: it’s far easier to fight for principles than live up to them.

    So true; thanks for that hark-back.  That’s the struggle for everyone with principles, including the Doctor.  Far easier to have none, or perhaps just one, so that “living up to them” is simple: just crush anybody who has  different ones.

    @missrori  perhaps he finds a golden chance to do right and realizes just how much doing it actually means. Less A Christmas Carol than It’s a Wonderful Life, but still capable of being moving.

    @frobisher  Ultimately, he is convinced, given a new lease of life, and regenerates at peace with himself. Happy ending all round, glass of sherry for Granny.

    I like this line of thinking — and Granny thanks you for the sherry.  Sherry is nice.  And a toast to @blenkinsopthebrave for scouting a way to a Missy-Doctor13.

    MissRori @missrori

    @ichabod  I think Barrowman is a cool guy in real life (it was great fun meeting him at Wizard World Chicago last year) but his style isn’t the best fit for Doctor Who — it works a bit better in a spinoff that isn’t trying to hit the same tone.  Your description’s pretty apt, really.  I am a bit of a musical theater buff myself, but I find the style he represents — which is sort of the default in the U.S. these days for musical actors — off-putting and unnatural, especially compared to their U.K. equivalents.  I’d go into more detail here, but this isn’t really the appropriate thread to go on about acting styles.  😉

    I appreciate my line of thinking being appreciated.  I like the idea of a sad season finale for the Doctor that inverts that of Series 9 — instead of going bad to save someone good, he goes good to save someone bad.  And both times it doesn’t work out too well for him.  😉

    Nick @nick

    My initial thought after watching the Mars story is that the Tardis has detected the Doctor is no longer quite the same person. Tie this into Missy’s question about whether he is alright, suggests a tie back to the replacement theory we discussed  at length last week.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    RTD knows who the 13th Doctor is…….

    Dr Who chat begins @3.21

    Zarbi01 @zarbi01


    Not sure if this qualifies as a spoiler as it’s just me, but we do know from BBC troilers that John Simm (in my opinion the worst miscasting ever for this programme although otherwise a good actor and a nice bloke) is coming along.

    Could Missy have brought him along to have a look at life on Mars?

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just transferred this over to “BBC spoilers” as it seemed a more appropriate thread.

    geoffers @geoffers

    @thane15 @missrori @frobisher

    re: “the doctor falls”

    as moffat seems to be quite obvious sometimes, with hindsight, might this infer some connection to sherlock and the reichenbach falls? perhaps the doctor takes a bad guy with him, in some certain death scenario for both of them (such as a black hole)…

    only to reveal how he survived, later… in the xmas special?


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Had to post this here as it contains spoilers (mentions of Cybermen & Master)…….

    gatiss wanted churchill return (for Empress of Mars)


    MissRori @missrori

    It’s possible, @geoffers — I’ve thought of the Sherlock connection myself — but with what little’s been released about the storyline of “World Enough and Time” and “The Doctor Falls” so far, it’s hard to say.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the ending has the Doctor succeeding against the Cybermen, but “losing” Missy in some way, perhaps with his realizing along the lines of “Hell Bent” it’s best to let her go, and doing something to tie off the companions’ arcs if need be (as there’s no indication as yet that either Bill or Nardole will appear in the Christmas show).

    That would be interesting — the “World Enough and Time” synopsis and the Doctor Who Magazine article bringing up time dilation suggests he’s trying to prevent her death after he somehow has a glimpse of the future and sees it happen.  That is to say, it’s not a fixed point in time yet;  why, that would be like what happened in “Pyramid” when he received news the world would soon end but knew that he could still try and prevent that from happening!

    Perhaps, unlike in “Hell Bent”, he doesn’t give up his principles to try and save her — but given whom he’s trying to save, his principles can only go so far, and bring great dangers upon him in the process.  And in the end, he must let go.

    Then when it’s all over there’s a twist setting up the Christmas show, something to do with the shape the Doctor’s left in, or someone unexpected turning up.  Or something.  🙂

    MissRori @missrori

    I just had another weird way to approach the title “The Doctor Falls” — what if that refers to one of his duties?  Something that comes in the line of being a Doctor?  The firefighter fights fires, the butler buttles, the barman serves drinks…the Doctor falls.  Nah, it’s too silly…  🙂

    Zarbi01 @zarbi01

    @blenkinsopthebrave Totally OK with transfer to BBC Spoilers.

    lisa @lisa

    Sharing forward this which was in my mail.    Lots of curious choices


    ichabod @ichabod

    @geoffers  . . . as moffat seems to be quite obvious sometimes, with hindsight, might this infer some connection to sherlock and the reichenbach falls? perhaps the doctor takes a bad guy with him, in some certain death scenario for both of them (such as a black hole)…  only to reveal how he survived, later… in the xmas special?

    Yes!  That would be dandy; and Capaldi has said numerous times that “he goes out fighting”, which could mean physically struggling with someone, couldn’t it?  Call back to the fate of half-face in Deep Breath?

    @missrori  . . . the title “The Doctor Falls” — what if that refers to one of his duties? Something that comes in the line of being a Doctor? The firefighter fights fires, the butler buttles, the barman serves drinks…the Doctor falls.

    Hmm.  Well, he does, doesn’t he — sooner or later.  Nothing silly about it, since structurally (over the lifetime of the series so far) it’s been true right along.

    @lisa  Curious indeed.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    This is not quite all that it seems and is rather interesting. Posted it here as it contains mild spoilers…

    mark gatiss admits protesting against black actors casting Victorian


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    15 pairs of tickets to the Doctor Who Finale Countdown Concert in Cardiff



    Still wondering what the link is between Michael Caine & Missy (see the link in post 57641)…….

    Perhaps it’s ‘The Self Preservation Society’?

    MissRori @missrori

    I was thinking about possible directions for the Christmas episode/Twelve’s finale, and was reminded that It’s a Wonderful Life-type plots have shown up in Who before, to some extent.  “Turn Left” is a variant on that concept, and so is Eleven’s arc in Series 5 and 6 (he comes to think he’s just become a bigger monster than those he fights, but he’s then shown that he’s loved by so many).  And “The Day of the Doctor” has the War Doctor being shown his future in hopes it will lead him to take a better path in life.

    So what can be done with the Twelfth Doctor that might be similar but not too derivative?  Assuming that he undergoes a heartwrenching personal failure in the season finale — most likely not being able to (fully?) redeem Missy, leaving him without the last long-term friend he had — how can he be convinced that his lives are still worth living and that he is still loved by so many, especially when this particular life has been marked with a lot of death, loss, and abandonment?

    At the end of It’s a Wonderful Life many of those people George Bailey has helped come around to help him by raising the funds to make up for the lost/stolen bank money.  Maybe that could be what happens for Twelve — he feels lost and helpless but all the characters whom he got to know over the previous three seasons come back to prop him up.  Let’s see, there’s Clara Oswald, Danny Pink, the Paternoster Gang, River Song, the Osgoods, Kate Stewart, Courtney Woods, Ashildr/Me, Ohila, the General, Bill Potts and Nardole…

    And of course, Susan Foreman.  🙂

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Simon Guerrier interviews the Moffster…

    Moffster interview


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Some kind of Doctor Who reveal has been touted @ midnight on Saturday (as in 12.01 Sun)…

    What could it be?

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I think it’s just chatter…

    Nick @nick


    If it was 7 pm, it might be believable. Midnight ? I’ll have to remember to check the web though !

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    If the regen is definitely happening in the Xmas special and not in the doctor falls, my guess the next doctor reveal will be made between the season finale  and the xmas special so as not to switch the focus from Capaldi’s performance to arguments over the new actors credentials to play the part. Lol not that it hasn’t had us speculating anyway over the prospective candidates.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @nick and @wolfweed–

    That’s the standard release time for a PA embargoed story, so it could be a possibility. Could well be all over the Sunday papers in that case.

    But I agree it’s unlikely that they’d let the Press get it first in this day and age. Unless they’ve decided not to go for some live telly announcement, which they quite probably haven’t. Interesting. If it does pan out like this then that means a) they’re doing it before they start filming the Xmas spesh  or b) the new Doc is showing up earlier than Xmas.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    or c) the new Doc has been there all along, hiding in plain sight…

    (Oh, well, deep down I have resigned myself to that not happening.)

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    To be honest I think it’s just the Twittersphere putting two and two together and making a gazillion. Shouldn’t think there’s much scope for immediate excitement.

    Though I will be very interested to see just how the Beeb does handle the announcement when it comes. Or whether they will indeed try to slip in a surprise regen this time. My hat’s off to them if they manage it….

    Frobisher @frobisher


    Who is it you are hoping is going to play the next Doctor from the current cast? Michelle Gomez? Pearl Mackie? Someone else?

    Nick @nick


    Either of them will keep me happy. So long as its not Kris Marshall (even then I’d wish him well)

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    I have been banging on about this for a while (indeed, in one instance in reply to one of your posts). You must pay more attention!

    An indicative (if not indeed idiotic) example would be something I said on the Empress of Mars thread at #58927.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Bonkers theory: The new Doctor will be played by a web bot. The new Master will be played by General Zod……..

    zod Kneel…!

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Now hearing a rumour that the midnight thing is the release of a poster for the finale…


    Nick @nick


    How dull ! Why would they embargo that though ?


    MissRori @missrori

    Yeah, that seems like awfully small potatoes.  Actually — any word on the runtime of ” The Doctor Falls”?  I can’t imagine 2 Masters, Cybermen, resolving Bill and Nardole’s situations, etc. can all fit into 45 minutes, and the last two finales were at least 55 minutes each.  About the only way this can be 45 is if it directly leads into the Xmas show.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @missrori  Final episode is an hour long apparently…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Ha! It seems that the length was the reveal (plus the nice poster)


    radio times reveal

    Bang goes the Missy vs the Master theory (Or does it?)…….

    Nick @nick


    Are we supposed to take that final paragraph in the RT seriously ? ! Bluff or double bluff ?

    I had thought that it Missy’s death we had to “look” forward to – the end of the today’s trailer suggested that too. I didnt think there was anything out there that suggested Missy was a later regeneration than the Simm Master, although I could very easily have missed that.

    I can’t wait to find out !


    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    I know the article says that missy is a later regeneration of the master than the Sims master but do we really know this to be true. If so does the Doctor also know this.

    I think we already know that the Master is in his/her  second set of regenerations because when the Master was the assassin in the tom baker story (and I apologise that I don’t remember the story title), I seem to remember  that when the time lords later covered up the state of the masters body  something along the lines that his appearance was due to his trying to extend his life past his 12th regeneration (Which by the way I don’t know was ever clocked when all the discussions were being floated when Matt Smith announced his leaving and everyone was trying to figure out how they were planning on the Doctor being able to regenerate to the Capaldi Doc). I also seem to remember in  sound of the drums when sims first appears he said that the time lords had bought him back in the time wars which kind of indicated that the time lords had given him a new regeneration cycle. That would mean SimsMaster is  at the least the masters second or third regen of the cycle and hence  JacobiMaster being either the first or second of that cycle. Given that Sims “died” by refusing to regenerate ,ok he was subsequently resurrected. But given that the master in The End Of Time appeared to be unstable manifestation, how did he manage to regenerate to the Missy form given that I surely don’t think that Rassilon would have being inclined to help him given his being so instrumental in thwarting his plans.

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    Who’s the 3rd Time Lord? (I suppose they’re counting The Master & Missy as 2?! – Or are they? It says 3 TLs, 2 Ms [as though 3 +2 =5]…)


    Nick @nick


    When I read it it seemed like they were adding the two pictures together as the they wrote that the current one was a dark riff on the earlier war doctor picture:

    • Is that a contrast between D10 and D11 working with the war Doctor to save Gallifrey (ie the two masters working together against the Doctor).
    • But the text implied The three Doctors (Peter, Matt and David ?) verses the two Masters…

    Presumably this stuff is written by the BBC and NOT a RT journalist ? What sort of hint are they expecting us to take from that piece ? Is the bluff that neither interpretation is true or are they double bluffing us by telling us not to expect a multi-Doctor/multi-Master series conclusion, when that’s what’s going to happen ?

    A complete red herring is also possible as well ? That would be more Moff like I think ? But did he write it ? Is his synopsis that someone the Doctor vowed to protect dies in the next episode (Missy into Master ?) also a red herring ?

    Kremlinology time !

    Nick @nick


    My recollection follows yours in that was that Jacobi/Simm Master was a second regeneration cycle as the Time Lords brought The Master back for the Time War. Missy would need to fit into either the first regeneration cycle or before Jacobi. However, the Master has form occupying other people’s bodies and assuming identities, so perhaps Jacobi wasnt actually his (her) real face ?

    Nick @nick


    Having reopen the link, I see it was written by a RT journalist. Is it just speculation on his part then ?

    Anonymous @

    @nick @wolfweed

    So in reading that article, the “3 TL and 2 Masters” really means -well, exactly what it says!

    There are three Time Lords, two of which are Masters and one Doctor. So not 3 +2 but 2 +1 =3

    Sneaky buggers!


    Nick @nick

    @thane15 @wolfweed


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @thane15 @nick

    As I tried to suggest, Missy & the Master are the same Time Lord. Probably just the author is bad at scripting maths…


    Wellicanbake @wellicanbake


    This might be a said before but how about John simms as the next doctor.

    MissRori @missrori

    The main concern about Missy not following on from Saxon is that it could really screw up the timelines relating to Gallifrey being saved.  Since it was Missy who got the Doctor and Clara Oswald together, and it was only Clara’s protests that led to Gallifrey being saved instead of burned…it’s just a big ball isn’t it?  😉

    Also…one of the latest tie-in books, A Brief History of Time Lords, has an interesting take about why Rassilon was suddenly obsessed with the Hybrid prophecy.  In-universe, the book is presented as a scathing expose of the Time Lords, and the fictional author suggests that maybe Missy’s clever idea, after she fled Skaro, was to remind him of it and that the Doctor knew things about it.  The author then claims Rassilon not only laid a trap for the Doctor but ordered Clara’s execution, suggesting the trap was even more devious than we knew.  The Doctor couldn’t resist a mystery, and Clara couldn’t resist a chance to save a friend?…wow!

    (And who is this in-universe author?  Why, not some Time Lord noble but a Drylander who met the Doctor once but once, when he told him to run ahead to the Citadel.  “His eyes…they were the kindest and most terrifying eyes I’d ever seen.”)

    MissRori @missrori

    Also…Michelle Gomez noted in an interview (I think one of the io9.com pieces) that what’s to come with Missy and Saxon is a sort of “two-headed Master” — and worried that was too much of a spoiler.

    Now I know my 2-headed beasties in pop culture.  While a many-headed creature like a hydra has its heads working in perfect unison, when there are only two heads, well, they’re willing to collaborate, certainly…when they’re not busy gnawing at each other’s throat.

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