The Legend of Ruby Sunday

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@magdiragdag, Yes! as @thane16 says…well spotted! They specifically focus on the clock, so it must be deliberate. But to what end?

Back in “Pyramids of Mars” the Tom Baker Doctor defeats Sutekh with the 2 minute gap for radio waves to travel from Earth to Mars. Could it be pointing to something similar? And yet, at this point in the episode, Sutekh has not even been revealed.

OK, bring on “Empire of Death”!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Interesting stuff emerging here.

@thane16

the Shepherd tone thing was somewhat perverse… how I would love a krautrock/derbyshire mash up tho…

REG would seem to be there… he planted himself in the Doctor’s time stream… what better move than create an alternate Doctor? You know who I’m talking about. Fits with virtual reality.

Of course someone else did more or less the same thing. She is my other candidate for hoodie woman.

If this is happening/has always happened in a wibbley wobbley, why did it ever go away?

 

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Wow – the Forum has been on fire with some super musings! (I’ve been immured in Exam Boards).

@thane16

If the Tardis was infected when the Doctor saved baby Ruby from the goblin dinner then do we account for his tears, at other times, because part of him, perhaps due to his connection with the Tardis, is aware that something is deeply wrong?

Yes, I think that seems very likely – the tears every episode can’t just be a more emotional incarnation of the Doctor (as much as I am totally down with that). “The body keeps the score”, as Van der Kolk says.

I tend to agree with @scaryb that the TARDIS was probably infected by Sutekh in Wild Blue Yonder.  Although I wonder if he’s been lurking, in a sort of impotent dormant shadow-form trace, in the TARDIS ever since The Pyramids of Mars  (although his full power was trapped in the Fourth Doctor’s time tunnel). The Doctor’s salt-line blending of imagination and reality at the edge of the universe is what allowed Sutekh to connect with that trace he left behind and start manifesting himself through the TARDIS.

And regarding your music post – Gatwa’s Doctor’s TARDIS does have that juke box at the centre of it – the music of the spheres… And if we’re rolling with Egyptology, music manifests the universe:

“The goddess Hathor, who also imbued the world with joy, was associated most closely with music, but initially, it was another deity named Merit (also given as Meret). In some versions of the creation story, Merit is present with Ra or Atum along with Heka (god of magic) at the beginning of creation and helps establish order through music. Egyptologist Richard H. Wilkinson notes how she did this “by means of her music, song, and the gestures associated with musical direction” (152). Merit, then was the writer, musician, singer, and conductor of the symphony of creation establishing music as a central value in Egyptian culture.”

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1075/music–dance-in-ancient-egypt/

@mudlark

I’m loving you putting your keen archaeologist’s site-mapping skills to work as a Whovian detective! The flashes of orange and blue on Ruby’s mysterious mother’s clothing under the cloak are interesting. In the Tales of the TARDIS: The Pyramids of Mars (just released for UK viewers on BBC iplayer) which is a cut-down version of the original Pyramids of Mars, bookended by Ncuti’s Doctor telling Ruby about his previous incarnation’s encounter with Sutekh, the colours the Doctor and Ruby are wearing are very striking: she’s in emerald green/blue and orange and he’s in his now trademark orange:

https://www.tumblr.com/ngatwa/753864017580359680/tales-of-the-tardis-pyramids-of-mars

The colour palette of Ancient Egypt was very ochre/green/blue/black:

“Colors had profound meanings; the language had four basic color terms. Blue, representing the Nile’s life-giving waters, symbolized fertility and birth. It, along with green, stood for rejuvenation and vegetation. Osiris, associated with rebirth, was depicted with green skin, and coffins were sometimes colored green to aid in the afterlife. Turquoise and faience were popular in funerary objects due to their color symbolism. Black represented Egypt’s fertile soil, tied to fertility and rebirth, often seen in depictions of Osiris and funerary deities like Anubis. Gold symbolized divinity as the blood of the gods and goddess, its rarity linking it to precious materials. It was even referred to as “The Flesh of the God”. Silver, termed “White Gold” was likened to “The Bones of the Gods”. Red, orange, and yellow had dual meanings. They symbolized the sun, seen in royal statues and jewelry. Red ink denoted the importance of papyrus. Additionally, they were tied to the desert and associated with Set. These colors held complex significances, embodying both positive and ambiguous attributes in ancient Egyptian art”

https://www.egypttoursportal.com/en-gb/blog/egyptian-civilization/ancient-egyptian-art/

Ruby-as-Horus theory is definitely go!

@scaryb

And in the meantime, (possibly unaware that she too is now infected, and being manipulated (everyone says how nice she is)) having left baby Ruby hopefully in safe hands, she goes on to develop a career as a software developer (maybe with Sutekh’s influence) which as you pointed out is now widely used, including being embedded in all UNIT’s systems, with who knows what viruses, sub programmes (infections) included, which could trigger the additional abilities of the Time Window to facilitate Sutekh’s full manifestation. All down to the TARDIS’s unique capabilities and the Doctor going back to rescue Ruby. (So S Triad (anagram) and Sue-tech (tekh) pun could be a huge amount more than the apparently throwaway jokes we were trolled to believe!)

Brilliant!

And the Red TARDIS (Sutekh-possessed TARDIS) is such a scary concept.

Re-watching the Pyramids of Mars,  Sutekh is fixated on the TARDIS as soon as he realises it’s a time machine and he tries to steal in then. The Fourth Doctor tells him TARDISes have “isomorphic controls” i.e. can only be flown by the Time Lord they are ‘keyed’ to, but of course Sutekh’s possession abilities mean no paws-on-controls required.

Battle of the Gods, here we come!

[bunface @bunface]

@thane16  @ps1l0v3y0u

Et al

So… Daleks. Someone said that ages ago.

 

 

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

As preparation for tomorrow I’ve just been watching the remastered and edited version of Pyramid of Mars in Tales of the Tardis on iPlayer. As a feature length film and with a few updated tweaks it has greater impact, I think, even though the effect of the cliff hangers in the original 25 min episodes is lost.  I note that Prof. Scarman’s racist comment about the Egyptian workmen (‘superstitious savages’) has been edited out.

The brief introduction and post script with the 15th Doctor telling Ruby about this previous encounter with Sutekh give a taste of how effective Gatwa can be as the Doctor in more sombre and reflective mood, and he doesn’t seem at all confident that he can prevail this time. As he puts it, the Sutekh he faced then was the size of a man; since then he has evolved and become a Titan.

I’m tempted to stay up and watch when The Empire of Death drops on iPlayer, but will probably wait until next morning after a good night’s sleep

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@thane16 – I mean, think about it. Pond, River, Flood – names on the Matriarchal line.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@bunface @thane16

Daleks.

My first reaction on seeing Space Babies was these are Daleks waiting for education and a new chassis.

Then I riffed on the babies’ journey to a planet that doesn’t really want them. What if deal was done with a third party and they were diverted to a very different world.

But then if snot-doggo is a projection of Sutekh what does that mean? Are the space babies projections of something else?

[syzygy @thane16]

@bunface yes indeed you did!!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@scaryb

Susan Triad’s cup of tea…

If the Vlinx is actually a Bamblweeny 540 sub-meson brain, and UNIT installed an atomic vector plotter in The Time Window, that alone could explain Empire of Death.

Seriously, could it be a Douglas Adams nudge? After Sutekh, will we get the return of Scaroth? Or as my daughter calls him, Ramen Noodle Man. She is no Whovian but even she deemed City of Death ‘acceptable.’

Scaroth waited around for a while. He was pretty old too.

However, I would expect some dialogue of the standard of  ‘what a wonderful butler. He’s so violent!’

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Nice to see Rose(2) again.

The rest of the cast – looks a bit like fan service. Who have we got this time? – oh yes, Mel and Kate.
I would have liked to see an Osgood though.
The Vlinx just looks so Star Wars Disney. And Junior Genius Science Officer on his Segway – why?

But hey – Mrs Flood. Did all our speculation have some grounds? But all she’s doing is babysitting Ruby’s granny. Will she do more in part 2?

VHS tape – wouldn’t it have degraded over the years? Does anyone have a VHS machine that still works? (I suppose Unit would have, along with a teleprinter and a wirephoto machine and a gramophone turntable…)
I have to say, the whole time-window sequence didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Or maybe I’m too mentally lazy to figure it out.

The black tornado thing – naming all those heathen gods, I was waiting for Cthulhu to make an appearance. But actually, it looks more like Zuul.

Well the title was a bit misleading, nothing to indicate why Ruby should be a ‘legend’, nor anything to solve her mystery. Maybe the next episode will throw some light on it.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

This series seemed to be taking off after a couple of falsish starts. Perhaps Rogue was a little loaded with pointers but an arc requires some construction work. ‘The Legend of Death’ is, however, an eyesore.

Junior science officer is there because woman on wheels has done a runner with Max Capricorn’s tooth. On another note, when Maurice Gibbons talks about ‘the obvious’, do you think he meand The Toymaker? The Master? Didn’t spot that first time.

So, we have a suture of the Susan Triad and Ruby Sunday mysteries. With added Flood, who talks about her mum dying of an ulcer, after diabetes and a hip operation. An unlikely biographical detail don’t you think? Must either be a lie or metaphor, cos batty next door neighbour she ain’t.

The chat isn’t sparkling. This version of UNIT is Famlike. The Timewindow takes up far too much time and dialogue. Of course, we may being played a major riff on virtual reality. However, Mel is not my favourite former companion. By some way. Adric may have been less irritating and, let’s face it, he fell victim of Campari on Castrovalva. Anyway, they Dropped a Bridge on Him. At least Mel doesn’t scream. Is that character progression?

As a season end set up, this is significantly less satisfying than any of the RTD’s first run. And it was the penultimate shows were generally preferable to Russ’ dodgy resolutions which could normally be relied upon to set the dog off.

So, not a good sign. That is, we know it will all turn out kinda ok. Rose (1) may end up in a parallel universe; Martha may tell 10 to get stuffed and Donna have her noggin wiped. But how the hell do you reassemble people from dust?

It’s a problem. And Russ’ answer was most unsatisfying.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I agree about UNIT, I was never very happy about it as a dumping ground for old Companions. (And as a supposedly elite agency, one has to wonder what special skills a randomly-chosen person who happens to become an associate of the Doctor’s, is likely to have. I suppose one could argue that there’s something about some people that makes the Doctor more likely to have chosen them – like Martha, or Clara, or Bill – but then Clara and Bill never subsequently worked for UNIT, so that falls flat.)

I wasn’t around (at least, not watching Who) for the first iteration of Mel, but she’s not may favourite companion either.

Mrs Flood – if she had a mystery, it’s still unresolved. Presumably it will be revealed in some future episode.

It became rapidly apparent that we were going to need a humongous Reset button. But RTD’s was way too mystical/metaphorical for my liking. The opposite of Death is life, so killing Death restores everybody? Seriously? The opposite of an opposite isn’t always identical with the thing you started with. Some things are irreversible.

So unlike many seasons of many, many fictional series, where the opening episodes and the finales are impressive and they go flat in the middle – this one was pretty much the opposite.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Have not been around for a while (real life can be a bugger sometimes)

@dentarthurdent

@ps1l0v3y0u

Agree with you both. I would argue that when RTD2 introduced fantasy front and centre to the Who universe he created an intractable problem, that shows up clearly in the “death of death restores life” rubbish at the end of his season. Who began life in the sci-fi tradition, and while you can (very occasionally) inject a bit of fantasy, I simply don’t believe you can go full bore fantasy, and let Moffat do the (very occasional ) sci-fi episode.

So, in-spite of all the Disney money providing candy bar visuals, I tend  to think the show under RTD2 has, overall, been a bit of a mess.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @dentarthurdent

fantasy of that ilk really doesn’t make any kind of sense in DW. Which doesn’t mean to say an established sci fi series can’t be trashed out of hand… like ST Enterprise. What were they thinking? And DW is pretty squidgy sci fi to start with, but RTD must know you can’t make that work.

I don’t TRUST the signs but I HOPE. It looks like a Deadly Assassin/Ultimate Foe tease to me. Someone’s messing around.

Still, an odd game to play after the trashing the show took from Zchib.

I have yet to complete the the full season end. The lady in the tent and Ruby’s family reveal were the best bits. Need to look at how big spear/crazy hat and his dna library fits in too…

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@blenkinsopthebrave @ps1l0v3y0u

Well, old Who did sort of stray into fantasy with e.g. The Greatest Show in the Galaxy. As nuWho has done, such as Rings of Akhaten. I agree, it should try to stay on firm sci-fi ground, but it frequently strays.

The line between sci-fi and fantasy can get blurred. A favourite comparison/contrast of mine is between DNA’s Hitch-hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy and Terry Pratchett’s Discworld. Hitch-Hiker is rock solid sci-fi, while Discworld is as fantasy as it gets, but both of them, in being suffused with comedy and satire, and in shining a light on our current reality, often end up remarkably similar in tone.

Time travel seems to be one of those themes that is conducive to fantasy, I think.

I notice that RTD seems to have taken a leaf out of Moff’s book with his companion. RTD’s first-run companions – Rose, Martha, Donna – were perfectly ordinary people. Moff’s companions were a little more exotic, and Clara was most certainly an extraordinary individual (notwithstanding Moff’s insistence she was perfectly ordinary). And Ruby resembles Clara in that regard.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @blenkinsopthebrave

Greatest Show… the gods of Ragnarok, Fenrir, the Guardians, whatever it was in the Satan Pit… deities/all powerful beings are best laid aside and avoided IMHO.

I always thought Greatest Show was a hyper reality… a projection of forces playing out in reality… a bit like The Matrix.

Of course Ace turned out to be a child of Fenrir… so the first super companion, if you don’t count Romana. So are super companions bound up with ‘Cartmelism’? Superdocs attract super companions? Only Martha was really ordinary… and I would say also very special indeed. The Fam were just mundane.

Rose was badwolf girl, incipient Director of Artron energy to all space time. Donna would be Doctordonna: kinda same thing. The Doctor was presumably drawn to Amy because the universe was collapsing around her.

Clara jumped into the Doctor’s timeline which makes her Extremely Abstract Girl. Then something changed; it was never spelled out but I assume being hooked up to a dalek casing changef her outlook… you imagine that would.

What is Ruby? Unanswered as yet… she seems to be a metaphor/projection/substitute for Susan Foreman… ie The Doctor is actually tasked with finding his daughter… or a son (?!!)… or, if this individual is s Timelord themselves, is that a valid distinction?

Squidgy scifi… all sci fi has to be a bit soft. In space no one can hear you scream with boredom. Even Hitchhiker’s Guide was soft with parody and satire… like the infinity improbability drive… you ain’t going anywhere fast boys.

Akhaten… habitable rings with gravitational field and atmosphere… sentient cosmic bodies… once you ask those questions it becomes very squidgy sci fi. E E Doc Smith had sentient stars in The Vortex Blasters… and Zchib used that in 42. It’s sci fi of some kind.

Fantasy normally has pre scientific rationalisations of the universe replace or underly reality. Different thing. I used to like Fantasy but the mundanity of most visualisations has put me off. Can’t suspend disbelief anymore.

Now the visualisation of Akhaten was marvellous… it’s just the story was inconsequential.

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent    @blenkinsopthebrave  @ps1l0v3y0u       I like when Who does fantasy now and then. In fact I describe it to people as a sci-fi/ fantasy series. Obviously it can go too far for but I do like it. Sometimes it feels like sci-fi takes itself too seriously and leaves me behind trying to figure it out. Fantasy feels like sci-fi giving me a wink.

Anyway excuse the intrusion but I was seriously bored and needed a distraction.Adding my 2 cents has done it. Thanks.

keep cozy

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston   No excusing needed.   The more the merrier, I for one am perfectly happy to hear from others in the room.

Sci-fi and fantasy are adjacent genres and frequently blur into each other.   I would have rated the ‘Hitch-hiker’ series as strictly scifi but as ps1l0v3y0u pointed out, it strays into the edge of fantasy on occasion.   I used to be a sci-fi hard-liner, that was before I encountered Terry Pratchett’s ‘Discworld’ and had to admit that fantasy had its merits if well enough written.   I still don’t rate Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings though.

@ps1l0v3y0u   Rose and Donna were perfectly ordinary humans until after they met the Doctor.   Martha was always Ordinary Human I think.   Not sure about Amy.    Clara was very definitely different, right from square one as Souffle Girl.

Akhaten – always made me conceptually uneasy with an atmosphere in space – how did that work?   That episode was, as you put it, pretty ‘squidgy’.   How much fantasy and metaphor I can accept varies with the tone of the story.   The Doctor’s Wife was moderately fantastic and I loved it.   Kill the Moon started out as very much hard sci-fi – the Space Shuttle, nuclear bombs etc – and then went and ostentatiously and gratuitously broke every basic law of mechanics and physics, I think it’s still my most hated episode.

I loved Asylum of the Daleks, and the clues that Moff gave us (‘where does she get the milk?’) which my brain ignored because I so wanted Souffle Girl to be real.   Contrast that with the very first Space Shuttle scene in Kill the Moon where the Doctor says “Where’s the gravity coming from?” – a good question with no possible answer – which by analogy should indicate that the Space Shuttle and indeed the whole episode is fake.   (Even before that – they could breathe.   The Space Shuttle does NOT have a pressurised cargo hold, and in fact the Space Shuttle can only reach Earth orbit, NOT the Moon I’ll stop now before I cover the whole page with a list of the absurdities in this wretched episode.)

What is Ruby – as you said, unanswered in this ep.   And in the next (SPOILERS) it appears she was a perfectly ordinary person, unless I missed something.   (I’m sure I’ll be told if I did).   So all the pointers in various episodes to something mysterious going on were red herrings?

I have to agree with @blenkinsopthebrave, this season was – mixed.   Half the eps were good.

[nerys @nerys]

Confession time: I really don’t know much pre-gap Doctor Who lore, but I get the impression that Sutekh is from that period.

Early on in this episode, at UNIT headquarters, I was sad to hear the Doctor say he was going to keep this face for a long time. We know how that turned out. Also, Kate was reminded (yet again) that the Doctor does not always bring joy.

I haven’t read all the bonkerizing, but my hunch is that Ruby was used as a pawn to lure the Doctor and the TARDIS. For her and the Doctor, the search for Ruby’s mother was real, but I have a feeling it’s going to fizzle into nothing but a smokescreen, since Ruby’s need to know her birth family has nothing to do with Sutekh’s objectives.

Was anyone else worried that the VHS tape was going to break before they got through with it? I’d have thought they’d make a digital copy first.

Ncuti Gatwa and Millie Gibson were wonderful, once again. The tension kept me transfixed to the end. I am hoping that the conclusion delivers the emotional payoff we seem to be building toward.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@nerys

If you wish to know more about the background to Sutekh, look up Pyramids of Mars which is from the Tom Baker era. It’s well worth watching and can be found here on the home page. A condensed and edited version is also available.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@nerys I second @mudlark. It is a fun story, Tom Baker Doctor, Sarah Jane and lots of pseudo Egyptian silliness. One of the best stories from that era. It may wobble a little now (as in doesn’t quite stand up), but it is still a very enjoyable watch.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys @mudlark @janetteb

Here’s an interesting thought… Pyramids of Mars was hinted by Doggo in Space Babies and the desolate world without music… BUT I wonder if there is also a link to Image of The Fendahl, 2 years later?

Evidence…

There are 12 deities in the pantheon; The Fendahl is a Gestalt being with 12 components Fendahleen and ‘the core’.

The Fendahleen are disrupted by salt.

The Fendahl drains and destroys all life (on a planet not the whole universe).

The Time Lords destroyed the fifth planet, leaving the asteroid belt, and The Doctor discovered they had hidden what happened…

When asked about the fifth planet, The Doctor says something like ‘the Fendahl came to Earth probably by way of Mars.’ Was Sutekh so scary because he’d gone Fendahleen?

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u that is an interesting theory and digs deep into the vault of Who canon. Image of the Fendahl is another episode I should rewatch. those were really golden years for Old Who.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

I’m investigating why Who struggles to hold on to good creative people. For instance, JNT was famously reluctant to work with Robert Holmes. Chris Boucher wrote Face of Evil, Robots of Death and Fendahl… all ‘A’ imho, but he left Who to edit Blakes 7 and the Beeb wouldn’t let writers do two shows simultaneously.

Looking at David Fisher next (The Leisure Hive is my guilty pleasure)

But Sutekh retconned as Fendahl might make a bit more sense of Empire of Death and the Pantheon but money is still on VR.

 

[nerys @nerys]

@mudlark @janetteb Thanks, I will look up the summary on the home page. It looks like there are also video clips, so hopefully I can watch them. I don’t think I’ve watched any of the pre-gap episodes (though my husband did before he went off to university). Not enough time … and I’ve found it hard enough to keep up with the post-gap ones.

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