The Legend of Ruby Sunday

[WhoHar @whohar]

I also spotted the name of a pub during the Time Window sequence. Spinning Wheel maybe. I’ve not had a chance to rewatch.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Today I found time to re-watch the Time window scenes more closely, pausing at frequent intervals, in order to compare, in detail, the differences between events as we saw them here and as we saw them in The Church on Ruby Road. What follows is probably going way too far into nit-picking detail, so just call me obsessive and ignore if you so wish. On the other hand, the differences are presumably of significance.

To set the scene, since I can’t post my map: the church, aligned west-east as usual, has a short, aisleless nave with three windows in the north wall (and presumably the same on the other side). There is a small chancel at the east end and the porch, with the tower and spire above it and a door on the east side, is situated at the east end of the nave, projecting from the north wall. The boundary of the churchyard is rectilinear on the south, west and north sides, but on the east side it and the road which continues alongside it, head of south eastwards at an angle of approximately 45 degrees from the vertical. The entry to the churchyard is from a road on the north side, opposite a large building – the pub. The Tardis parked itself on the road slightly to the east of that entry and toward the eastern end of the pub, where the Doctor had a good view along the road in both directions, westward and south eastward. In The Church on Ruby Road, the camera angles and set dressing created, to some extent, the illusion of an urban environment but, if you look carefully, it’s possible to make out that the actual location of the shoot was rural.

In The Church on Ruby Road, events are as described in my earlier post above. The Doctor arrives, looks towards the mystery woman walking away south eastward, already well along the road towards a row of buildings facing the end. When he returns from saving baby Ruby and looks again she is still walking away, but to all appearances still no further down the road, as if she had paused while he wasn’t there to see, or had jumped back in time a few minutes. He watches for a few seconds, then turns, re-enters the Tardis and leaves.

In the Time Window, the scene stabilises at a point before the arrival of the Tardis. After a minute or two exclaiming at the success of the project, the Doctor and Ruby turn to look towards the entry to the churchyard, and at the same moment the image of the woman flickers into being on the road on the near side of the entry. She walks towards where they are standing, and as she reaches them the image jumps, glitches and briefly disappears. Once beyond them the image, still somewhat unstable, rounds the north east corner of the churchyard and then pauses. Ruby’s adoptive mother thinks she is crying, which may or may not be projection* on her part. At this point the Tardis arrives, while the woman is still standing there and not, as in the Church on Ruby Road, walking away. The Doctor and Ruby turn to watch as the Doctor emerges, pauses and then runs to the church, and as they turn it seems as if the image of the woman disappears. When they turn back the image of the woman flicks back into existence and then she turns and points North-westward.  Chidozie goes to see if there is anything other than the Doctor in the direction she is pointing and reports that there is nothing, while overlooking the large object which actually is there: the Tardis. When the Doctor turns back to look at the woman she is walking away and, as they watch, the image seems to vanish. Meanwhile we see the Doctor in 2005 returning, pausing to watch the woman and  going back into the Tardis, and then we hear the sound of the Tardis departing. And while the Doctor is trying to comfort Ruby, the menacing phenomenon manifests.

What I particularly noticed, other than the obvious discrepancies in the sequence of events – which the Doctor registered but couldn’t, on the spur of the moment, process – was the intermittent instability of the image of the woman as seen in the Time Window, as if she was both there and not there at the same time.

Finally, a wardrobe note which may or may not be significant. In the past as seen in the Time Window, everything is monochrome except for the Tardis and, to some extent, the clothes of the Doctor and the woman. in which some rather washed-out colour can be seen.  From what out I could make out of from the close up image of the woman as she approached the Doctor and Ruby’s viewpoint, she was wearing, not a hooded cape, but a cape over a hooded coat, and the cape had a narrow collar. Everything appeared grey except the collar, which was banded in orange and pale blue.  In Pyramids of Mars, which I’ve also been watching, it struck me that Sutekh’s robes also had bands of orange on the sleeves and collar, with a girdle of orange and, I think, pale blue, and his eyes were outlined in orange. Make of that coincidence what you will 😉

*In the psychological sense

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@mudlark,

Thanks for that excellent description of the Time Window sequence. I was struck by the colours you mention, particularly as they hint at Sutekh (as in P of M). I wonder if this could mean that the woman in the cloak and hood becomes possessed by or respondent to Sutekh as the events play out in the Time Window? If so, this might explain why the figure seems both alarming when pointing in the direction of the Tardis behind which Chidozie will die but at the same time crying, as observed by Carla? If so, it might imply that Sutekh is able to manifest in the Time Window. How? Well, it has already been established that UNIT has incorporated a dynamic system courtesy of Triad Technology…

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

.. it might imply that Sutekh is able to manifest in the Time Window. How? Well, it has already been  established that UNIT has incorporated a dynamic system courtesy of Triad Technology…

If I am right in thinking that that the Tardis had already been possessed by Sutekh – or perhaps infected is a more appropriate term – when the Doctor went back in time to save baby Ruby from the goblins, then Sutekh was already present, at least in latent form, at the original event; didn’t Maestro imply as much when they were puzzling over the mystery that was/is Ruby? Then, as I suggested in an earlier post, while the Time Window was open, the infected Tardis in UNIT HQ and its earlier self as seen in the Time Window could have connected to create a synergetic effect. This may have enabled the ‘red’ Tardis and the firelit, buzzing swarm centred on it to be projected onto the scene, mirroring the eventual scene in in UNIT HQ in which Sutekh ultimately manifested himself. And you are right; Susan Triad may not have been aware of being possessed/infected at the time, but Sutekh would have had every opportunity to sneak some very nasty viruses and traps into Triad Technology software to help things along when the time came.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave

WOW!

That is 5 star bonkerising! 🙂

To take it a step further…  3 things strike me.

1. When did the TARDIS become infected? Let’s assume it was in Wild Blue Yonder, when the Dr did the salt thing at the border of the known universe and “the other”.  Although it may have been before (need a rewatch of the specials to see when it started groaning!) But it’s certainly been for a while, before this series (1/14/41) started.

2. Who is the woman who left baby Ruby at the Church?

3. Susan Triad – RTD got in early with the meta joke S. Triad being an anagram of TARDIS – but maybe that’s a double bluff! How did she get the ability to effectively time travel (apparently in her dreams) to ALL the places the Dr and Ruby have been this series (including places we haven’t been with them). And how (and when) did she get infected by Sutekh?  She’s clearly psychically connected by the time she’s giving her speech, and as far as we know she’s not been in physical contact before then (as Sutekh has only just manifested in UNIT HQ).

What if she is the woman who left Ruby?  Originally played out as we saw, without the Dr present. But then the Dr visits to prevent Ruby being kidnapped by the goblins. And he arrives in his (infected) TARDIS… It’s after that that things start to change.

So if that woman is Susan Triad, that’s where she made contact with a (presumably) still weak Sutekh (who had to wait for the Time Window to complete his connection and allow him to manifest fully in our world). Sutekh’s connection with the TARDIS, and with her, allowed her later (apparent) travelling to appear as different people. (Or possibly she’s only a psychic manifestation – a trap to lure the Dr into using the Time Window to investigate).

And in the meantime, (possibly unaware that she too is now infected, and being manipulated (everyone says how nice she is)) having left baby Ruby hopefully in safe hands, she goes on to develop a career as a software developer (maybe with Sutekh’s influence) which as you pointed out is now widely used, including being embedded in all UNIT’s systems, with who knows what viruses, sub programmes (infections) included, which could trigger the additional abilities of the Time Window to facilitate Sutekh’s full manifestation. All down to the TARDIS’s unique capabilities and the Doctor going back to rescue Ruby. (So S Triad (anagram) and Sue-tech (tekh) pun could be a huge amount more than the apparently throwaway jokes we were trolled to believe!)

So when we see the Dr in the next time trailer at the end of this episode with his head in his hands saying it’s all his fault – that could be far more true than we think! In which case he’s got a helluva lot of sorting out to do! And his TARDIS is very sick indeed. (I wonder if Tennant’s TARDIS (when Ncuti duplicated it) is also infected with Sutekh… or is that a clean, spare version lying around? (I know DT and RTD have both said they’re finished with 10/14 but it would have been easy to sneakily film an extra scene as part of The Giggle‘s production block to use his TARDIS and to tie off 10/14’s story (maybe he’ll reintegrate with 15 to show that “normality” is back)).

PS Great spot on the colours in the cloak, and the connection to Sutekh. Also the Dr has been wearing a lot of orange this series, and the TARDIS is predominantly blue.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Sorry about the mega post. My brain’s exploded! Need to get some zzzzz. G’night everyone 😉

[syzygy @thane16]

Whoa, everybody has written awesome posts!

@miapatrick @juniperfish et. al. If the Tardis was infected when the Doctor saved baby Ruby from the goblin dinner then do we account for his tears, at other times, because part of him, perhaps due to his connection with the Tardis, is aware that something is deeply wrong?

In rewatching the beginning of The Church on Ruby Road, before the Doctor is mad-dancing in kilt, he’s watching Ruby at the keyboard, but he’s wearing a hat & it appears the right side of his face has tears.

However, production/rehearsal/filming scenes out of order could lead to ….Gatwa glowing. 🥵So I could be completely wrong.

@scaryb great post too & yes, Tennant absolutely could’ve filmed a secret cheeky scene. I believe it was @bunface who discussed the importance of absorbing the 14th, stylistically & ideologically.

I recall how the Giggle, in speaking of The One Who Waits, referred to his machinations as a “different game.”

The song implanted deep in Ruby’s soul could still be a beacon, if indeed her name is one….

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@scaryb you mentioned “psychic manifestation”…. & I think you’re onto something there… I was remembering how Ruby’s playing the keys; a goblin causes feedback (nice pun RTD) & S Triad yells out “oi” & asks for Gaudete. Mmm. She’s 2 people in 2023/4.

[bunface @bunface]

@thane16 @scaryb

Psychic manifestation, I’d say absolutely. In the trailer for this ep STriad was all “they’re using my face”,  which must be a line in part 2 seeing as it wasn’t in The Legend.

All part of the AI theme: face hacking, deepfakery, identity theft.

Which leads me into more Doctor musing!

Interested in the orange connection unearthed by @mudlark‘s (frankly scarily) forensic examination of the Ruby Road scenes, and wonder how this connects the Doctor to ‘Sutekh’* and it’s identity-thieving ways?

This orange duffle-coated Doctor who blunders into faery rings, even though the Doctor is hypersensitive to such things?

The Doctor who weeps, like the TARDIS who groans?

I’m just not buying the bi regeneration thing as a permanent, somehow… But thinking rather that the Doctor we’ve been seeing isn’t always the original/real. Which opens up the bad Doctor possibility again.

Puppet/AI Doctor! Gone viral. That’s a scary thing.

Funnily enough, I’m currently working my way through the Classics in order as they appear on iPlayer, and have just hit the ep in The Chase where the Daleks make a robot Hartnell! Which is just as scary. Funny how it all comes round…

*Sutekh is the AI programme, right? Like people are saying, a virus?

Oh, and on Ruby being the eye of Horus… And therefore the Sun (good stuff on the name connection!) and therefore the Doctor’s Right Eye (him being Horus, Sutekh’s adversary)… He’s gonna lose her in the fight? Lose the Sun as well as the Moon.

RTD has warned it’s going to be heartbreaking…

Who else can’t wait?! 👹

[bunface @bunface]

Music, left end right eyes, suns and moons…

Mrs Flood theories (not mine, but..)

If Ruby is the Sun, then why not

Moon River, wider than a mile…

👹

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@scaryb

When did the TARDIS become infected? Let’s assume it was in Wild Blue Yonder,

That seems to me very much the most likely occasion – see my earlier post in response to @markkelly. It’s just about possible the Meep brought it earlier, depending on the identity of the ‘boss’ referred to. It might be worth re-watching that episode to check if the Tardis made that groaning noise.

Your suggestion that the woman who left baby Ruby at the church was Susan Triad is plausible and might help to explain the discrepancies between events as the Doctor first witnessed her in 2005, and her behaviour when viewed through the Time Window. She wasn’t infected when she deposited the baby at the church door, but became infected when the Tardis arrived on the scene as she was walking away.  But in that case the colours on her collar might just be coincidence*, because they were there before the Tardis arrived. Susan Triad would have been in her late thirties or early forties in 2005, probably already in a position to afford childcare. As someone at UNIT HQ pointed out, women who abandon their babies are usually teenagers or in their early twenties and not in a position to handle the responsibility of a child.

* If those colours are significant it’s a very subtle hint, because I doubt if anyone who didn’t watch as closely as I did and pause the recording to check would have noticed. But the Doctor on the same occasion was wearing an orange top and blue trousers.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

I’ve been musing on that question of infection/possession – who was channeling a supernatural entity, at what point did that entity gain access, and to what degree were the people affected aware before the point at which the full manifestation of Sutekh himself was about to break through? The identity of these entities, other than Sutekh himself, is also in question. The list of gods which the Harriet  intoned when fully possessed  included, in addition to those which @juniperfish so helpfully posted, ‘gods of skin [or sin?] and shame and secrets’ and the children of Incensor ‘called Doubt and Dread’

In the case of the Tardis we can, I think, assume that it was some element of Sutekh himself she was carrying, and that she was aware that something was wrong – hence the groaning – although the sense of danger wasn’t enough for her to sound the cloister bell. But what of the others. Those we know of are Susan Triad herself, Harriet Arbinger, and seemingly Mrs Flood also.  In The Devil’s Chord, Henry Arbinger claimed to be the son of Maestro, so was certainly one of the minor deities, So was Harriet Arbinger of the same order? And if so, was she aware of the fact, or was her identity suppressed until the point of breakthrough?

Judging by her prophetic utterances when alone with Cherry Sunday, Mrs Flood (as in before or after the flood?) was also acting as a harbinger, so was she also of similar kind, simply posing as the kind of neighbour people might trust to granny sit, or was she infected as a result of her brief contact with the Tardis and only channeling such a minor member of the pantheon? Either is possible and would explain her belated recognition of the Tardis, and perhaps her encouraging Ruby to enter the Tardis and follow the Doctor. In which case, bang goes the theory that she had travelled in another Tardis when younger.

As for Susan Triad, clearly she wasn’t aware of being infected, although troubled by the dreams in which she was unwittingly stalking the Doctor; but when the breakthrough occurred and she changed, she seemed to become an aspect of Sutekh himself, and that seems foreshadowed by her subconscious link the Doctor and the Tardis, and by the fact that her dream self manifested in so many forms.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@bunface

Did you really think it that scary?   I suppose I was treating it like an exercise in field work – visiting, say, the site of an abandoned medieval village or of a monastic precinct, observing and recording all the humps and bumps marking buried remains, identifying them in terms of ditches, walls, buildings and so forth, and trying to interpret the pattern; or doing the same as a desk exercise using air photos. It keeps me amused in my retirement, now that I’m no longer physically able to do fieldwork, and maybe it helps prevent my brain from turning to porridge 🙂

[bunface @bunface]

Did you really think it that scary?  

@mudlark

Ooohh, no, not really! It’s just that my brain doesn’t work that way so I’m agog!

But thanks for the context. Knowing you are/were an archaeologist (?) makes your approach clear for me. And less ‘scary’ 🙃

I love that you see it from such a different angle, that you read with a different method to me. I have a master’s in film studies, with a particular fascination with audiences/reception/ identification and  also star studies. Which explains some of my angles, no doubt!

I’m also autistic and find social interactions challenging, and struggle to understand where people are coming from. So being able to contextualise your approach is super helpful! 🙂

One thing I do know is the porridge feeling. This forum is helping me too.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@bunface

I’m glad it was helpful. One of the great things about this forum is the many different areas of expertise and the different angles which people bring to the discussions.

Yes, I’m an archaeologist. I started out as a prehistorian, specialising in the Neolithic and early Bronze Age periods in Britain, while at the same time spending significant amounts of time taking part in excavations on major Saxon ecclesiastical and monastic sites, plus some Viking. However, in the last fourteen years before I (unwillingly) retired I was what might be termed a specialist generalist, doing research and fieldwork on sites of all periods in England, up to and including World War II and early cold war defence installations (very much not my favourite area of study, but fascinating in a horrible sort of way).  Archaeology is a funny sort of discipline, occupying an area somewhere between the sciences and the humanities and straddling the boundaries of both, which may be part of what attracted me to the subject in the first place.

For the record and to expand the context, I’m also interested in physics and cosmology, though lack the mathematical skills to explore these fields more than superficially, and  for what it’s worth, I’ve read a vast amount of science fiction and in the process have accumulated a very large collection of SF books dating from the 1960s onward (where books are concerned I’m a hoarder).

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark

I’m also interested in physics and cosmology

Have you read any Carlo Rovelli? He’s an Italian Theoretical Physicist, who writes generally accessible books on Physics.

If not, start with Seven Brief Lesson on Physics and if you enjoy that then The Order of Time and Reality is Not What it Seems (though the latter is more challenging). Interestingly, The Order of Time postulates that time as we perceive it does not exist, particularly the flow of time, and what we are experiencing is actually Entropy.  Entropy is a measure of the useful work in the system* (inversely proportional), and it never decreases. What this means is that the amount of useful work in a closed system always reduces, ultimately to zero. e.g. the heat death of the universe.

This is on the face of it a simple concept but it has profound implications for all of Physics, and Rovelli uses this to explain his theory. It’s quite a short book, but I found it fascinating.

* Entropy was once explained to me as a measure of the disorder / chaos of a system. The more disorder / chaos, the higher the entropy. As an example consider a snooker table, all set up and ready to play. The first player breaks, and the balls are scattered all over the smooth baize. Maybe some go into pockets. ie there is more chaos after the break than before. The entropy of the snooker table has increased. And, crucially it will never decrease, unless an external influence resets the table ready for the next game. But, in that instance, the system (snooker table) is no longer a closed system. I find this a bit easier to imagine (and therefore understand) than the “useful work” definition above.

 

So, getting back to Who, it seems that the TARDIS is less a time machine, and more of an Entropy traversing machine.  And, of course, Entropy has been a theme of Who before – certainly in the classic era.

But getting back to the episode in question – two performances stand out. Firstly, Bonnie Langford as Mel showed the most agency of any of the characters, certainly more than she showed in the one or two eps I’d seen of her with the 6th / 7th Doctors. I wonder if this is significant in some way – may RTD is trying to redress the balance of Mel away from her personification in the Classic era. Or, maybe it is more significant than that, and Mel will be a key part of the finale. Ruby’s mum?

The performance that stood out for me was Jemma Redgrave – absolutely terrific. Lots of non-verbal cues in her acting, which is great to see. Owns the screen when she is on it (see also 73 yards).

Shout out to Susan Twist too.

And, as a counterpoint, I do think the ep suffered a bit from the multitude of characters in the Unit scenes. A lot of them were barely used, and a couple could have been trimmed quite easily. Also, I found the continuous technobabble “stability of the time window has deteriorated by 0.1 parsecs” type-thing a bit grating. Minor quibbles though.

And, a final cat-amongst-the-pigeons point (which I saw elsewhere) Susan Triad is an anagram of Rani’s Dust. With an extra a.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

I am, as always, in awe of the bonkers theorising that goes on here, so erudite and so detailed! I can contribute nothing on that level but what’s preoccupying me at the moment is the importance of music and how that will play out (ha!) in the finale. I keep thinking about Stranger Things and how music was so vital to the last series, both the Kate Bush track, and Metallica’s Master of Puppets – it didn’t save them, not quite, but it was a source of strength and part of the armoury against the forces of darkness. Given that Maestro robbed music of its power to uplift, inspire and bring joy, I think it’s on our side. And the Carol of the Bells may have more of a role, who knows? Well, we all will know more in a couple of days…

[syzygy @thane16]

@cathannabel Wasn’t Stranger Things wonderful? The sheer power of music in the most recent season to transform & invigorate characters and to create a channel to more effectively beat the Big Bad was impressive, demonstrating how music is natural: endowed with a necessity and power to act as transformative, cosmically, across culture and  time, interestingly.

In ancient China and India, scales and units of measurements were viewed as part of an overarching principle of cosmic music similar to Plato’s Occidental theory where the relations between musical intervals, the characters and sound of particular scales, of numbers, influenced nature and society but also individuals right down to ‘singing tones’ believed to exist within the walls of flesh of the tiniest animals and within the building blocks of humans.

And in Japan and early China, a belief existed that social phenomena and elements of the calendar were related in the most complex of ways and were overlaid with significance when connected with the stars. I think this is happening here, with Ruby and the music “deep in her soul.”

As if special powers or supernatural forces are connected to the music which is acting as ‘memory bait’ and vibrating, using specific intervals only Ruby may sense or feel across her body or superstructure, as was believed by Plato and Pythagoras.

Earlier I suggested that the old Ukrainian hymn might be a beacon for Ruby to locate her self – should she find herself either fighting Set or be lost, in a similar way, perhaps among dimensions, as has happened to Rogue.

As you say, not long to wait!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

OK, time for my last minute predictions. Ruby, rather than the Doctor, will save humanity. The key will be her sensitivity to music which Maestro was puzzled by. The Doctor, on the other hand, will defeat Sutekh, for similar reasons that the Tom Baker previously defeated Sutekh– through his understanding of time, which is beyond Sutekh.

Back to Ruby. She is from the future (hence Davina McCall not finding any genetic trace of her) and was left at the church…in order to save humanity. Mrs Flood has been watching over Ruby. Why Mrs Flood? No idea.

Who left her at the church? The “kind woman”? Just guessing at this point.

So the question is: how many things will I get wrong? Probably all.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

On the question of Mrs Flood I’ve had second thoughts, and your idea that she has been watching over Ruby is pertinent. In short, I’ve concluded that she probably hasn’t been taken over by Sutekh or any harbinger acolyte of Sutekh’s but that, for whatever reason, she is time sensitive and so was aware of his approach. After all, when she said that a storm was coming and that ‘he waits no more’ she didn’t assume the heightened, prophetic manner of Harriet, and nor did she show signs of change in her appearance.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

On the subject of Jemma Redgrave I’m in complete agreement. I’m in awe of any actor who can convey so much with just a tightening or twitch of the facial muscles, and I always look forward to any episode when I know she’ll be in it.

I confess I’ve never come across Rovelli’s books; I’ll look out for them. I am, however, broadly familiar with the ideas concerning time and entropy and it has always seemed to me logical that the two were aspects of the same thing. When reading on the subject I can usually grasp the concepts; my problem is that I can’t follow the mathematics, which is the only language in which the reasoning can be clearly expressed. At age 16 I managed to pass the GCE ‘O’ Level maths exam, but it was by far my weakest subject and I was in the ‘B’ stream, assigned according to ability in a three stream system. We studied mainly algebra, geometry and trigonometry, while the ‘A’ stream got to start on calculus (later I had reason to wish that we had done more on statistics and probability, which would have been useful to me, but that’s another story). Maths is taught differently now and who knows, this way might have suited me better. Anyway, in the final two years of High school, when we started to specialise, I had to give up science subjects, including physics which I loved. But this is straying way off topic, for which I apologise.

While on the subject, though, and at a slight tangent, it occurred to me that the Flanders and Swann song on the First and  Second Laws of Thermodynamics seemed appropriate Flanders & Swann – ‘First And Second Law’ (youtube.com) especially the words of the penultimate verse, All the Heat in the universe/Is gonna cool down)/’Cause it can’t increase/Then there’ll be no more work/And there’ll be perfect peace  … Yeah, That’s entropy, man.

[syzygy @thane16]

That was also for @whohar who commented on Jemma Redgrave & physics & maths. Also @blenkinsopthebrave  who inspired many thoughts on the importance of the Carol of the Bells & The Devil’s Chord.

[syzygy @thane16]

Yes, I said this. Had a massive post and it’s ….gone. Never mind!

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark

 I am, however, broadly familiar with the ideas concerning time and entropy and it has always seemed to me logical that the two were aspects of the same thing.

I was unsure whether to include my cod-scientific definitions – I assumed you’d probably be aware of the terms, but I wasn’t 100% and I reasoned it was better to include for completeness.

Regarding Novelli, The Order of Time only has one equation (as does a Brief History of Time I recall), and it is:

ΔS ≥ 0

which Rovelli goes on to explain as “Delta S is always greater than or equal to zero” aka the 2nd principal of Thermodynamics.

Anyhoo, let me know what you think.

@thane16

In ancient China and India, scales and units of measurements were viewed as part of an overarching principle of cosmic music similar to Plato’s Occidental theory where the relations between musical intervals, the characters and sound of particular scales, of numbers, influenced nature and society but also individuals right down to ‘singing tones’ believed to exist within the walls of flesh of the tiniest animals and within the building blocks of humans

Fascinating. And, yes it does sound like Ruby.  And your missing post might be in Spam – see @craig for help.

@blenkinsopthebrave

So the question is: how many things will I get wrong? Probably all

Hey. You’re on a roll my friend.

My predictions:

Well Omega…

I think the TARDIS portal will come into play again. Either Ruby will go through the one at UNIT HQ and end up exiting the TARDIS in the time window, and then find out who left her at the Church. I don’t think she’ll find it’s her mother there and agree that she will have been left by some prescient being (or prescient being’s minion) for reasons TBD.

OR the Doctor will transport Sutekh into the time window by the same route and then get rid of him, probably by taping over Ruby’s VHS with an episode of EastEnders.

And, I wonder if there is another Pantheon member / god even more powerful than Sutekh, that we still haven’t seen.

The 3rd Doctor tie-in is a bit of a puzzle though Maybe it will be the return of Bessie. Although I did manage to find this:

In the original broadcast of episode two, the first fifteen seconds of Fleetwood Mac‘s “Oh Well (Part One)” can be heard during scenes in the Auto Plastics factory.

Music again.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark

That link is terrific. Very clever use of language. Science based puns.

“and the reciprocal of Pi to your good wife” Love it.

I confess I’d not heard of these two gentlemen before, so many thanks for broadening my horizons.

[fanoftombaker @fanoftombaker]

Hallooo Puro here! I’m on Son’s new address. I did have some of this post saved in word doc…  This post addresses the musical concepts, in general, of current investigations into Time Windows, in relation to fractals in music and the interconnectedness of the universe and music. So many posters have written extensively on the importance of music to this season so, from my perspective, though retired for a considerable time, I’ll address a few points….@ScaryB you were looking forward to reading some of my comments about The Devil’s Chord – but alas, I was otherwise occupied ….so fingers crossed here…

The theories of maths & physics with music outlined by @whohar @cathannabel @blenkinsopthebrave @mudlark @pufferfish are most intriguing & MANY others have written elegantly on these themes & the questions we still need answers for -we may never get them 🙁

I think RTD has woven a tapestry, if you will, where every knot, musical tone, interval, as well as ancient spells all echo space time like ripples but are interconnected and intersectional, so the boundaries between paranormal events & the physical sciences blur.

Fractals play a large part in our universe according to the themes of programmes like The OA & The Leftovers, as they’re available within the “complex circuitry” of our lungs, in the tremendously complicated connection of trees & roots & in the spiral shape of sea shells or galaxies.

The Universe’s macroscopic & microscopic structures might be iterations of fundamental patterns seen in many forms of music and scales, such as the Western sonata form, for instance & the scalic patterns used in Indonesian gamelan. Composers of the 1700s were known to experiment with sound & vision, explaining that certain tones resonated across an entire piece according to (Western music’s concept of) scale and modes. Jean- Philippe Rameau, a music theorist, was nicknamed the Isaac Newton of music because of his “awareness of Euclidean geometry & the connection of acoustical properties within a musical scale.”

In the last fifty years, an investigation was made into a method of sound propagation involving the measurement of tones, intervals, modes & the analysis of how these sounds actually expanded. These measurements determined the correlation between intervals & scales used in a single work, but at the same time, or heard all at once -much like how we examine a visual image. Experiments on sound profiles or fluctuations of, & connections between, pitch in scales, triads & chords across an entire work are on-going but technology is developing legitimate methods of sound analysis and measurement in Time Windows (!) which assess how often phrases & patterns in melodic lines (fractals) recur & are self-similar, & a hierarchy of scales is developed based on the shape of musical phrases or motifs used by composers & counted across an individual piece. We are sensitive to motifs, particularly when attached to an emotion or character. Composers know that linking motifs within transitions or verses are important to our ears. Murray Gold has delivered hugely by giving us an elegant, gentle phrase which accompanies Ruby on her travels.

Traditional classical music can be broken down into a single motif, or pure essence, which drives the complexity of variations available to a composer who may invert the theme, insert new tempi & modulations, intoxicating us with altered voices & swift changes to tutti but always alerting us to the pure essence or motif.

That we are sensitive to motifs is significant but it’s one constituent part of music of which we may be aware, to a greater or lesser degree. Dynamic changes, dissonant chords (like the Devil’s tritone), changes in key called modulation and varied instruments together with mathematical properties of musical beat & rhythm are seen by non-Western musicologists as part of an overarching set of variables and diverse ingredients in the cosmic recipe of the construction of the universe. One of the elements of fractal study of music is to highlight the pitches which resonate at different frequencies & to assess which beats oscillate & why we are drawn to such movements, or pattern changes, in beat. People here have discussed, extensively, ….  @blenkinsopthebrave …how the Carol of the Bells can be heard in simple triple or compound duple time, for example. Musicologist Lawrence Kramer studies the interplay of chords, intervals & silences mirroring the universal energy, atoms, particles & voids we saw explored in The Devil’s Chord.

Connecting music and cosmos is a theme in this season’s Who. Even a fragment of the carol floods us with enough energy, memory & sense of place & time that the whole tune, the entire picture, is suddenly present in all its forms. A tone produces a resonance & creates overtones all carrying the essence of the fundamental note, or the universal being: possibly Ruby. You may also recall how a resonating tone from the Doctor’s sonic could connect him to real and flesh Amy. Kramer’s book The Hum of the World: A Philosophy of Listening asserts that interpreting music isn’t just opinion, but knowledge which embraces certainty & uncertainty.

Ultimately the study of music and its connection to the universe should eventually assess how a piece of music, with its scales or modes, modulations & repeated pitch patterns like ostinati or fractals can be ‘sound visualised’ into a clear, image & where rhythms or lesser motifs can be overlayed into a colourful code or picture, as clear as any map. Even after many years, we shivered when Maestro played the 3 note ostinato or pattern associated with the drumming in the Master’s head & which reoccured as tentative knocks signifying the TenDoc’s “song” ending. That Ruby may be able to navigate to her body, should she be outside her space time, using the song “deep in her soul” is one explanation for its presence or that its beat oscillation mirrors another theme: that of overlaying one image with a second, one memory with another, laughter over crying, one Tardis over a second. Can’t Wait. 1 2 3 4…

[fanoftombaker @fanoftombaker]

@whohar it’s all good -it’s above under the sons new and independent username: @fanoftom…

Yes!  “Either Ruby will go through the one at UNIT HQ and end up exiting the TARDIS in the time window, and then find out who left her at the Church. I don’t think she’ll find it’s her mother there and agree that she will have been left by some prescient being…”
But will the Tardis get her to the church on time? (I had to say it!)

@blenkinsopthebrave You’ve done extremely well so far. And you know a lot about the Pyramid of …the Other Thing….   🙂

@mudlark “On the subject of Jemma Redgrave I’m in complete agreement.”

Oh yes! And her retelling of the Brigadier’s stories by fire light was such a heart jab as it reminded me of the 1970s,  sharing Doctor stories & then making up our own…

@bunface “moon river wider than a mile…”  FANTASTIC (in 10s voice).

Love to all, Puro (thx for your patience & apologies for the long post. I really tried to write less but it tended to over-generalisation….)

[bunface @bunface]

@fanoftombaker

Absolutely love your last paragraph.

I know nothing about music theory but I draw, whilst listening to classical radio all day; you make perfect sense.

Fantastic backatcha (in 9s voice?!)

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@bunface -aw, shucks, thank you – back with my own username. classic radio is fantastic. How you interpret & why it makes sense to you is in keeping with Kramer’s The Hum of the World.
I liked nine too -the Moffat ep where he beamed? “everybody lives”  & you’re right he said “fantastic.”  He was swaggery doctor. Gatwa has that.

Edit: I was going to say that you do know music theory if unconsciously-that swelling, sonorous loudness at the end of Dot & Bubble filled with many instruments peeling shame…

Puro

 

 

[bunface @bunface]

@thane16
You just made me buy a book! Don’t need much encouragement there, but the description sounds very much up my street. Actually yesterday on my walk I stopped to look and found that it led me into listening to the  many levels and textures of sounds that were going on: several different birds (song and movements), water in a stream, various leaves in the breeze, distant traffic in various directions, many varieties of fly and bee, the immediate silence and the vibration of my own eardrums! The hum, exactly.

Fantastic. 

Yes, you’re right, we all know music, where knowing isn’t only intellectual.

You make me want to rewatch everything now just to listen. I think the music in DW is brilliant, even when MG gets a bit carried away! I expect it’ll play a huge role as usual in provoking floods of tears tomorrow!

Watching the Hartnells, it’s been fun and fascinating to witness the development and growing importance of incidental music and sound generally, including the loosening up of everyone’s voice acting. It matches the rapid emergence of the Doctor’s character, the mythos, the expansion of the whoniverse etc. The use of a jaunty modern sixties jazz intro (more like something in The Avengers) in a Dalek series was just the kind of quirky needed!

Why Who is so great is because, as I think you suggest, it moves in mysterious ways, and is essentially musical in the way it tunes us in on so many levels we can never quite grasp it all.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

Experiments on sound profiles or fluctuations of, & connections between, pitch in scales, triads & chords across an entire work are on-going but technology is developing legitimate methods of sound analysis and measurement in Time Windows (!)

And RTD has been dropping thumping great hints from The Giggle onward, in addition to the more oblique references to a fundamental connection between Ruby and music. Clever.

Many thanks for that highly illuminating discourse; it provides much to ponder and digest. Incidentally, I received notifications of both versions of the post, so I’ve read both. I’ve learned the hard way to copy (Ctrl C) any long post before pressing Submit, so that if it goes astray I can just paste it back in (Ctrl V).

@blenkinsopthebrave

If I received notification of both versions of Syzygy’s post, then presumably you equally received notification of the original version of my response to you, as well as the edited version above. You may have been puzzled or even offended by the paragraph in the original which I subsequently edited out. It was the result of my misreading your ‘how many things will I get wrong’ as ‘how many things will go wrong’.  I’m currently waiting for delivery of new reading glasses, but I was pretty tired, also. Earlier I’d spent more than three hours gardening, and not even wearing a back brace at that, such is the difference my new knee has made to my whole stance and well-being. 🙂

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark wow! You got both 😳-please, please don’t read them both. 🤓 You’ll run out of time! -I said a lot. I’m so glad you’ve  regenerated a new knee. Back braces can be cumbersome &  bruising… & I know how important the garden is to you.

@bunface believe me, I have one eye open when I read about a title- all  the better to go “La La La” I can’t see you; can’t buy you (sing song voice). 😄
The music in Who shreds me. Watching the last of Amy Pond with SmithDoc & her motif combined with the Doctor’s, caused watery  “moosh” face & tear floods.

[syzygy @thane16]

@bunface ever notice ears ringing? As you listen to streams or cars passing  -you might have access to a keyboard, guitar, tuning fork -or heck, whistle over a bottle, & you can match the ear ringing to “A” 440 hz. Fun trick. ‘Course, like a lot of tricks, it doesn’t always work 😬

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

With two artificial hips and now a new knee I’m gradually turning into bionic woman. It’s exactly a year since I had the knee op, but I made what the surgeon and physio seemed to think was near miraculously rapid progress in recovering full use of the joint.  If only they could also do spine replacements.  Because of the loss of inter-vertebral tissue I’m also the Amazing Shrinking Woman (Originally 1.61 m in height, I’m now only 1.48 m 🙁  )

Getting the garden back into shape will be a huge task. Thanks to the periods of neglect owing to the knee and protracted episodes of acute back pain it’s been something of a losing battle over the past 3-4  years but I live in hope, and the fact that I can now manage 3 + hours at a time is promising. Actually, if you don’t look to closely it still looks quite good in a shaggy sort of way, but I don’t want it to progress too far along the re-wilding path.

[spacedmunkee @spacedmunkee]

Just musing. “The ONE who waits” doesn’t seem to fit with other narratives in this series . Sutekh seems to be many things and Susan’s company name was “Triad”. Could the one who waits be the next level baddie?

[janetteB @janetteb]

Finally got to watch the episode two nights ago and have not had time to even post let alone read all the comments, a treat in store.  I want to post my thoughts before the next episode blows them all to dust.

It is about Susan…. Finally. I have wanted Susan to be addressed for so long so wish come true and i hope to see some answers in the next episode. Loved that the Doctor has a granddaughter but no child. Timey wimey. What about Jenny though? Could Susan be Jenny’s daughter. RTD might decide, after having stayed the hand of execution, to make use of the character. I don’t think so though. Then there is River Song. could Susan be her grandchild? Another possible. Is Ruby connected? Is she the child he doesn’t know he has? So she would be Susan’s mother. Um.

Still convinced that RTD cast Susan Twist because of her name. How could he resist?

When did Sutek attach themselves to the Tardis, while he was at the end of the universe or earlier. Was it the salt that released Sutek? Is it the Doctor or the Tardis that the woman points to?

Congrats to @blenkinsopthebrave for suggesting Sutek as the big bad. I think that might have been mentioned in some show the “kids” were watching. If so the powers that be are watching.

Now back to work but looking forward to catching up on all the comments in the next few days.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Predictions…

no clear idea.

It looks as if Ruby could be related to the eye of Horus, which imprisoned Sutekh in the original PoM. I’m guessing her age, revealed in Boom, is how long Sutekh traversed the time corridor or whatever it was he failed to die in.

The fact that she is Sunday makes me wonder about 13… who broadcast on a Sunday. Is she hoodie woman?

Music does seem important or why all the singing? We’ve had Aeolian tones. How about Shepherd tones… the aural illusion of rising intonation whilst the pitch remains the same… or Motorik, the hypnotic 4/4 beat of krautrock that always seems about to ‘fall over’ thanks to judicious use of the crash cymbal??

The rest of the Pantheon??? I doubt if all is at it seems. Sutekh may be a front for someone else. The whole thing may be virtual with, on the one hand, the multiplicity of baddies representing significant people in the Doctor’s past. How else is Susan Triad everywhere?

If so I doubt if this will be resolved in one 45 minute episode.

Lastly, who are all these new bods in UNIT?

Shirley’s gone to Geneva… nothing big, scary and significant in that neck of the woods. She first turned up looking for The Meep didn’t she? Machine guns in her wheelchair. Last seen in the shot BEFORE someone picked up Max Capricorn’s tooth.

Also The Vlinx. What who why?? And the Doctor said… hi! Vlinx… V links…

And where is REG?

Remember The Matrix in Ultimate Foe? Perhaps you’d rather forget… what is real?

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@mudlark Crikey, no offence taken at all! One of the great things about this site (beyond the accepting and generous calibre of the people who frequent it) is that any “wrong” prediction still captures the essence of the site; viz, “theories even more insane than what’s actually happening”.

And you take care of the shiny new knee and hip, my bionic compatriot.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

Or the Doctor will transport Sutekh into the time window by the same route and then get rid of him, probably by taping over Ruby’s VHS with a episode of EastEnders.

Brilliant!

 

[bunface @bunface]

@spacedmunkee @ @ps1l0v3y0u

The rest of the Pantheon??? I doubt if all is at it seems. Sutekh may be a front for someone else. The whole thing may be virtual with, on the one hand, the multiplicity of baddies representing significant people in the Doctor’s past. How else is Susan Triad everywhere?

If so I doubt if this will be resolved in one 45 minute episode.

There’s definitely a next level villain, because Sutekh is a puppet and many else is AI trickery.

The Triad Programme may even be an evil entity in itself?

And no way is everything resolvable in one episode. Plus why be so throwaway with such a great, rich stock of bad?

As I’ve said, I bet on the Toymaker – waaaay too good (character and actor) not to milk, and the Giggle is supposedly the ‘start’ according to RTD. With a side of Maestro, because yeah, yeah, yeah. As lots of people have demonstrated – music.

No doubt too a third on this occasion, to make a triad… My money is still on Mrs Flood, who for me has always been deeply suss. And she’s Anita Dobson.

 

 

[bunface @bunface]

@thane16

Will a recorder do? You mean, play an A?

Intrigued. But slightly worried that you’re actually the Trickster and that if I do this I’ll somehow end up stuck in a time window being followed (at a 73 yard distance) by rats with several pairs of red eyes…

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Too much RL this week and I’m going to have to timeshift with the finale – only hope I don’t bump into Sutekh on the run and disappear forever! Will have to keep off t’interwebs for a bit!

Just wanted to do a quick message before then – y’all are AWESOME! So many great theories. If RTD has come up with anything even half as good, it’ll still be great! Been so great to bonkerise on here again, place has been buzzing this week. Thanks everyone and as always to our mighty emperor @craig for setting it up and keeping it going.  🙂

Enjoy and see you on the other side.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whohar Totally agree with @blenkinsopthebrave – that is one awsome theory! (VHS tapes) 😀

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

So excited for the next episode- Moffat level for me more than original RTD.

final predictions in descending order of confidence:

 

Ruby is whatever the Doctor is. Potentially his daughter.

 

The heart issue won’t be 100% satisfactorily explained.

 

The Doctor is linked to the pantheon. He comes from magic.

there should be a few between the last and this:

Mrs Flood is Susan, who had been chameleon arced till the Christmas episode.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@miapatrick

Mrs Flood is Susan, who had been chameleon arced till the Christmas episode.

Yessss!  Wonderful suggestion – it fits perfectly with what we know, and if I were given to betting I might even stake a modest sum on the likelihood of it turning out to be true.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

<span class=”useratname”>@mudlark The more I think about I the more I like it, as much in terms of storytelling style as anything.

</span>

and we have two mysterious older women, two mysteriously abandoned babies.

this has been such a playful series!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@bunface

Your money is on Mrs Flood…

I have made my case about the woman who is a bit ‘rivery’. Mrs Flood, whoever she is, doesn’t know the blue box but knows what a tardis is, yet she is delighted that someone can escape with The Doctor. Her example would seem to be the One who Waits.

You doubt if this Amy but virtual reality could create everything, or it couldn’t really claim to mimic reality.

Yes, I think she is pre Melody Pond River Song. The timelines work. Just need a regeneration and a vortex manipulator. Or otherwise deliver an unconscious but regenerated Mrs Flood back to Leadworth in a Tardis. Cos the Doctor would know.

I think there are few clues for the finale. What’s left that’s unexplained?

Roger ap William = big stick/crazy hat. Who he?

A girl called Splice. She’ll never make s good marriage with a name like that…

The space babies… where are they now? Eggs Stir mmm and eat.

Did Rogue really end up with the birdies at the bottom of the plughole?

I have another candidate for ‘The One’… no sighting on t’interweb and RTD is dragging this out…

I think this will go into the next season.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@bunface “the triad programme may be an evil entity…” ooh, I like it, I like it…” !!

A bit like the end of Nine’s run? 🤩

@miapatrick “Mrs flood is Susan who has been chameleon arced” I ageee with @mudlark for  this is super bonkerising…

And @mudlark 3+ hours is insanely good in your garden. And I agree, you don’t need it to be too shaggy -just a bit, shaggy….

@ps1l0v3y0u yes, we still don’t know why REG is in Rogue’s Gallery??? Im still wondering to what extent all these episodes really happened.

And, shepherd tones on I am The Walrus …. But only as in all Shepard tones…. being an example of something else….

[Magdiragdag @magdiragdag]

Does Mrs. Flood time-travel? When Ruby picks up Mrs. Flood to look after grandma, it’s 15:08 on Mrs. Flood’s radio clock – but Susan’s speech is going to be at 15:00. She’s got BBC Radio 1 on, the clock says ‘service not available’, but it’s still warning about a thunderstorm. So, what’s going on there?

[syzygy @thane16]

@magdiragdag welcome to the forum!

wow, the time is incorrect on Mrs Flood’s clock? Well spotted! I wondered too -why is the clock used? Is it JUST to show the storm (because we already see the storm) or is it something else entirely? I like it! People have suggested she’s chameleon arched.

Puro

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