The Reality War

[Craig @craig Emperor]

It’s the series finalé already. They come around far too soon, don’t you think. I guess we don’t get wishes, we get the reality.

It’s part 2 of 2, and battle rages across the skies as the Unholy Trinity unleash their deadly ambition. The Doctor, Belinda and Ruby have to risk everything in their quest to save one innocent life.

Just as with last week, everyone who is anyone seems to be thrown into the mix. And once again it is written by Russell T Davies and directed by Alex Sanjiv Pillai.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Omg omg they have really done it and Ncuti’s gone

 

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

How the what the why and why am I crying a bit and laughing like a loon? I really, really didn’t want Ncuti to go, I’ve loved it when the Doctor was him, and I had been dismissing the rumours as just the usual nonsense and hoping for a twist for whole last part of that. Some of you get on here and talk some sense, asap, please… (oh, wait a minute, that’s not in our remit. OK, give us some bonkers theories that make sense of what just happened). And I’m going to have to cry for Ncuti a bit more, I’m afraid. I was so not ready.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Just in from the cinema screening, which was fab, and encouragingly full of lots of younger Whovians (as opposed to old timers like me, though there a few of us too).

@cathannabel

 And I’m going to have to cry for Ncuti a bit more, I’m afraid. I was so not ready.

Me too. Managed to dodge spoilers in the run up, tho I was aware it was likely to be Ncuti’s last episode, I was still hoping against hope.  Maybe a bit uncharitable, but we lost him to make an imaginary space baby real!! (Sorry Poppy 😛  )

While I’m not overly keen on CGI monsters I have to say Omega looked fairly impressive on the big screen. I thought the awesome Archie Panjabi was disposed of, gulped down, just a little too quickly! And it’s a shame the tragedy of the original Omega’s insanity (brought on by his own hubris and millennia spent alone in the antimatter universe (is that not a thing any more?) wasn’t addressed (unless I missed it).

Having said that, there was lots to love and I did enjoy it a lot. Lots of emotional stuff, great performances and Anita Dobson’s Rani is still out there!  Conrad got a bit of comeuppance but not sure that he actually learned anything. Production values were great, loved the Rani’s bone palace (and her jacket!). Couldn’t help but wonder why UNIT’s defences only face one way! 🙂

But the Doctor saved the day in a great action turn from Ncuti, and a bit of help from his friends – great to see Anita and the Space Hotel back… bit handy that she was keeping an eye on the Doc 😉

Lots to digest. Not my favourite episode of the series (but there’s strong competition) but a fine end for Ncuti. And RTD?  Lovely to see Jodie nailing it. The ending was a complete surprise for me. Hope Billie gets a chance to get a proper run at it. 8 episodes is really too short for a season though.

As The Doctor has got rid of wishes (wishing that there should be “no more wishes”) and has reset the universe by that tiny degree, does that mean the gods and fairy tale worlds have gone too or are they still lurking somewhere? Is bigeneration not a thing any more, and is Tennant Doc still lurking out there in domestic bliss somewhere?!

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@cathannabel

I’m not sure I can talk  sense or bonkers at the moment I’m in shock really really thought right up to the last it was going to be a halted regeneration with the Doctor “ giving up” years of his regeneration to correct the final timeline discrepancies this would have allowed Ncuti to continue  for 1 or two more seasons  if he had wished to continue. Obviously he had wanted out for whatever reasons, thought I doubt he was sacked as some rumours have hinted and setting up a regeneration  exit story would have taken some time so I suspect this has been on the cards since  season 1 , and I wonder if he had secretly only signed on for 2 seasons a bit like Eccelstone did for his only season.

One thing I did notice was that in the credits Billie Piper wasn’t introduced as the Doctor so what is actually happening there. Is Billie going to just be a place holder like Tenant14 or are they really going to go forward with her. Its been one thing for actors like Peter Capaldi’s or Colin Baker who had played relatively  minor parts in past episodes but to ‘use’ a longtime companion especially one as a long term and well loved as Rose as the new face of the Doctor is going to be a difficult sell to fans, for a start she’s going to have to be  totally different to Rose both in mannerisms and attitude in the past when the Doctor has taken a ‘familiar’ face it has been to remind him/her of something important to him/her. Having said that  I’ll be willing and interested to see how they tackle this. As a bit of a wild ass speculation I wonder if RTD was hinting earlier in the episode when he bought Jodiedoc  in for her cameo that the next Doctor was going to be female. Given the event it may now be more understandable/clearer why filming wasn’t commenced over and above the issues of the Disney will they/ won’t they commission a 3rd season etc as leakage from the set would be next to impossible  to stop.

Overall I really enjoyed the finale ( ok I would have liked an ending with Ncuti staying).  I think they missed an absolutely perfect opportunity to have bought the Doctor and Susan back together I was convinced at one point that we were going to have them meet and Susan was going to Regenerate into Poppy but having thought about it that wouldn’t have worked as Susan would have needed to regenerate into a “young” man/woman in order to retain their  intellectual ability. I’ll need to rewatch again to try and understand whether the timelord sterility is supposed to be post death particle or prior. Thought cannon-wise surely this  makes problems with the Doctors recollections of being with young timelords and growing up with them at the academy  though this would truly make them all the last of the timelords.
rigt I think I’ve rambled on enough for now

 

 

 

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  Devilishrobby. Reason: Additional text

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Hello Everyone,

Your cinema experience sounds fab @scaryb .

That was a true emotional rollercoaster, and RTD totally pulled off the surprise, for me at least!!!

I spent the first part of the episode thinking – jeez this is a LOT of exposition, but hey, I’m in love with Archie Panjabi’s Rani.

I wasn’t a fan of Mad God Omega or the Bone Beasts – a case of the Disney’s CGI budget overwhelming the story. Omega in The Three Doctors was much more frightening in his lo-fi gold mask and silver lame frock.

I got emotional about Gatwa-Doc and how much he wanted Poppy to be the first of the new Time Lords.

Then I thought – you cannot be serious that your priority isn’t getting Rogue out of that Hell dimenson, Doctor!

I thought bringing back Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor was a lovely touch, especially Ncuti’s more emotional Doctor helping her understand she loved Yaz. The Doctor is firmly queer-encompassing now, something I feel deeply touched by as an LGBT fan, knowing I would have been indescribably happy if I’d been able to experience that as a child viewer myself.

I was sure that when Gatwa-Doc landed in the Poppy-verse, he was going to be landing in the orchard at the moment when Newton misheard Donna and Tenant 2’s “gravity” as “mavity”, and he’d correct Newton, and then the mavity universe would be resolved. But, it seems that thread has been left hanging. As has the intriguing question as to why Ruby was the only one who could remember Poppy. Ruby is obviously going to join the UNIT team, so we’ll hopefully get to explore that later on.

Gutted to see Gatwa-Doc go, as he was magnificent in the part, but the fact Billy Piper is the new Doctor is THE BEST THING IN THE WORLD. It’s a beautiful Full Circle, for the show, for RTD and for Billie. They were there at the marvellous beginning of Nu Who (along with Ecclestone’s Doctor, whom I adored) and here they are for an amazing regeneration. I may have screeched a little with delight.

I’m a huge fan of Billie’s, I thinks she’s one of the best actors of her generation (I Hate Suzie is glorious) and only her magnificent arrival could have eclipsed Gatwa’s departure.

I’ve found Disney Who frustrating because of the truncated nature of the story-telling, but I’m completely psyched for Billie Piper’s Doctor Who. She’s going to be epic.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Well, by and large, I thought it was pretty enjoyable. I am sorry I did not get to see it at the cinema, as it had a real cinematic feel to it. As it went on-and it did go on for quite some time, I was starting to wonder if it was going to compete with Wagner’s Ring cycle in both length and operatic delivery.

There were some things I had questions about. When the Rani appeared there seemed to be an awful lot of exposition (sorry, @juniperfish). And the Rani was dispatched a trifle too early perhaps. At the end, I was really hoping the awful Conrad would get his just deserts, but he didn’t. And I was hoping that Ruby would have a strong farewell with the Doctor, but that was all saved up for Belinda. Pity. I thought Ruby’s character deserved a bit more.

Poppy. Is she a TL or not? That explanation seemed to change back and forth quite a bit. Perhaps that was RTD2 providing himself a bit of wiggle room for the future.  And I  am still confused by the whole question of time shifting just marginally.

I really liked the  appearance of Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor (even if RTD2 had done it to prepare us for another female Doctor). JW shone in her short scene.

So, overall, I thought it was a rip roaring episode that was lots of fun to watch. And if the Disney connection (and money) dries up for the next season, RTD used it up in an enjoyably spectacular way in this finale.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Right. Trying not to look at anyone else’s post.

To start with, if that was Davison, he’s really let himself go. Has someone else said that? If so, we think alike. If not, gimme a chuckle.

It was better than the Stupid Sutekh thing, but how much more? How much of the regeneration story was bolted on? If you accept what was being told… IF… it didn’t seem that necessary.

And now we have 10, sorry 14, and Bill. The original Bill. Both Timelords. Presumably in the same reality. Both of them the same Timelord. Except Timelords don’t have kids like that, or not anymore, if ever.

Unless… it’s a VR within a VR??

As a resolution it was quite empty. And Whittaker’s appearance especially. You really want some profundity: whatever it was 9 said to Rose; 11… ‘the first face this face saw’ (it makes me cry) and then ‘I don’t like the colour (of the kidneys – that makes me laugh)’; 12… ‘thank you for being here…’, Nardole ‘cuddle.’ Last 2 are Moff of course. Why not leave it to him?

Was it rushed? And was this because the regen wasn’t part of the plan? Did Whittaker think she HAD to do it to defuse tensions? Cos, committed or not, Russ didn’t really give her any parting zingers, did he?

And the two big pay offs…

1. Conrad is forgiven because he really just, misguidedly, wanted everyone to be safe and happy.

2. Women do indeed have children who have an absent father.

… may well be an appropriate conclusion for THAT particular series… which seemed to be about male anxiety. Yeah OK. So, why did he regenerate?

There are some other issues. Not simply wasted bonkerising discarded like wrapping paper in the gutter. I need to think.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@devilishrobby Agree with you on hoping Ncuti would only give up a bit of regen energy but I think in real life he’s an an actor going places (hope so) and probably only signed up for a short time. I loved him as the Doctor, felt like a very fresh take on the character.

@juniperfish Agree with you (and I think @whohar and others made the point before) – Omega’s previous costume worked better (iconic mask). If you know his history then his degeneration to just a scary monster is shocking. But otherwise he’s just another CGI monster. More actors please! Especially like Archie Panjabi, I’d like to have spent more time with her! Loved Anita Dobson’s waspish take too.

@blenkinsopthebrave It was a romp. And agree on Jodie nailing it in just a few seconds. Conrad – he’s now working as a cook in (running?) a cafe when he wanted to be Nigel Farage, and dictate the narrative, so maybe that’s some poetic justice!

Despite its flaws and some plot holes Dr Who is still the most bonkers, big hearted thing out there (apart from the amazing minds on this forum! 🙂 ). I love that it can still incorporate so much variety of stories – crazy, weird, blockbuster, terrifying, intimate – and ‘woke’ ideas in ways that don’t feel tokenistic in these dark times. (I do hope the disabled and displaced gang survived OK and live long and prosper!).

My highlights from Ncuti’s run – and I think the 2 seasons need to be seen as a whole – Boom, 73 Yards, Dot and Bubble, Lux, The Well, The Story And The Engine… and the chilling ICE adjacent security guards in Wish World gave me shivers. No daleks or cybermen yet it’s still Doctor Who.

At the end of everything, it’s about family (loved the Rani’s jibe about the Doc always coming in with a love saving the day solution) – the ones you choose especially – no matter how much crazy shit the universe throws at you.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@scaryb

Couldn’t’ help but wonder why UNIT’s defences only face one way!

Absolutely! And the scene where Kate turns the wheel and the entire top of the building tries to turn…

Of course, it gave her something to do, rather than (like her father) shouting out orders.

I should add that that scene was one of the reasons I enjoyed the episode!

 

[winston @winston]

Wow!  What a ride that was. So much happening in one episode, so many people and so many plot twists. Anita saves the Doctor but then has to hold a door open for quite a while. Ruby ,Rosie, Unit and Mel all showed up to fight the bad guys and I loved it. The Doctors fighting clothes were kick-ass and he wore them well.

I have many questions but first I will just digest what I saw and the sad but happy feelings I have.

I was totally surprised and utterly crushed by the regeneration. I really hoped that Ncuti would stay for at least one more series because I thought his Doctor was something special. Of all the Doctors I have watched his was the one I felt most emotional about. Was it the courage of his tears, his furious anger or that beautiful smile?  He made every story better. I didn’t want him to go.

Then there was Billie. What? What what what?  Did my brain just explode ?

I think I will go sit in a corner and rock for awhile.

stay safe

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

I have just seen the news. Oh boy was not expecting that. Like @cathannabel I was not ready to say farewell to Ncuti Gatwa. He needed another season at least. but as for the next Doctor, well it makes sense. I can see it. the Doctor does like to revisit old faces and BP has developed well as an actor and has the range now and the love for the show. Glad I saw the news before watching the episode however. time to absorb the loss of Ncuti and prepare for it. He was a wonderful Doctor.

cheers

Janette

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave yes, you did wish Conrad wouldn’t be redeemed: yet, he was, or almost.

I have to admit, I’m not sure why Gatwa had to regenerate? But there was mention of moving the “phenotype to the left? and lots of talk about “degrees.” However, I wasn’t particularly gutted: I haven’t been a fan of this doctor -the “babes,” the vocal fry, transitory exchanges, the clothes etc.

I guess I always enjoyed the shambolic, awkward, unaesthetic Doctor, with his stolen wardrobe, nerdy talk, someone needing a “carer” (“she cares so I don’t have to”); the upper-class adventurer. I must stress, this is just my opinion -and poorly expressed: I totally get that the Doctor has to evolve from those habits!  I suspect if I let it sit, I’ll change my mind…. & I’m glad others have enjoyed this Doctor’s run, however short.

I liked the murky, dirty spaceships, the grim worlds, where everything seems off kilter and cold. But these seasons have been shot with brightness, vividly and graphically colourful, with massive effects and even the score, and its harmonic idiom, was involved in creating a feeling of the climactic: in fact the previous episode felt like it was building one quick piece of facile dialogue or libretto, after another. We were perpetually waiting.

As if the libretto was just a scaffold for the musical structure? The crescendos and suspensions kept building and building, creating more tension, renewing and emulating suspense, and whilst there was some formal coherence, I felt the multicoloured/psychedelic, orchestral feel of it ultimately led to an empty (untenanted!) conclusion.

In the past, referring to previous doctors was rare and thus SO special? Those repetitions felt a tad humdrum, to me.

I would’ve liked the mavity and fable theme to be finalised? I thought we’d go back to the apple orchard, too, and that even Ruby Sunday with the unusual name, might vanish into only the Doctor’s mind -though “it’s all a dream” would be on the nose? Perhaps, though, as 11 always said, “we’re all stories in the end.” Maybe we don’t need a resolution to that and even with more stories from the pantheon coming. Christopher Nolan is doing The Odyssey!

Puro xx

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Ok. That was better than the Empire of Stupid Sutekh.

That is, not even the moving scene with dust woman or the shonky but charming homemade pseudo Tardis could save us from taking the dog for walk. Even if the dog was a backward god.

Conrad really only wanted safety for all. Fathers are absent and people cope with it. Well, these two conclusions are strong. And the story moved along nicely. The ‘Unit Fam’ was firmly under control. On the other hand Omega was a bit daft and not terribly scary. Nor did he bear any resemblance to tTD or AoI. Nothing about bigeneration was revealed. Was it? There was some terribly squishy technobabble in there.

I would really like Jodie’s appearance to be more valedictory, but it felt like a contractural obligation. Can I go now? Unless… the idea was because Gatwa had just been checking out a few of his previous (male) fizzogs, she was there to remind him that there was an alternative. Which may actually be worse…

Obviously the arc is incomplete.

Takeaways.

Anita has a Boss who wanted to collapse The Rani’s VR. It seems reasonable to think this is also Meep’s Boss. And presumably Mavity hasn’t gone away suddenly. Therefore Salt at the Edge of The Universe/The Pantheon is a constructed narrative to deceive The Doctor.

Also The Time Hotel is presumably not all it seems to be. Anita was very interested in Rogue and The Doctor.

Poppy was Belinda’s child and YET she was in Space Babies. Unless she’s a munchkin so cute she gets in twice over. But Lakshmi is raising her. So… is the Doctor’s daughter, or son, fostered by someone else? Someone we know?

Mrs Flood is still out there.

RTD has presumably banked a lot of footage of CAF. Just in case.

The Vlinx, Rose and Susan Triad were hidden by The Rani’s VR. And whatever Zeta Alpha Theta Iota is, it is presumably OUTSIDE The Rani’s VR.

Lakshmi’s garden was autumnally dank and reminded me of The Data core VR in The Library… but maybe SitL was a date link too far.

But The Mindrobber, (a) Great Architect, or just a spooky hamming thesp. And, well, it wasn’t Omega (was it?) So Daleks? The destruction of Skaro?

Hoped there might be a ‘Christmas 2025’ announcement at the end. Sigh. Apparently Husbands didn’t start shooting ‘til September 2015…??

 

 

[Pete66 @pete66]

Watched it last night have to say struggled with all series, but last two episodes were really good.

The baby Poppy was just a bundle of gorgeousness, I could have cuddled her all day.

I didn’t mind Ncuti as doctor as it’s a new slant but even he admits he missed not battling the Daleks.

I will say I was gobsmacked when he regenerated knew nothing of him leaving, whether jumped or pushed.

Be interesting to see how the Rose Tyler angle develops.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Morning all with a nights sleep but no second watch as yet I’m convinced that RTD is playing some game with us using Billie Piper in the Regeneration scene ,it don’t just  ring true. Having watched Doctor Who Unleashed it’s obvious that way back when it was being filmed that Ncuti’s exit had been planned for some time  (maybe even as a 2 series limit as I’ve suggested earlier from the outset), remember most of the filming for season two was done back to back with season one.

 

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

Hi @ps1l0v3y0u. Re Anita’s keen interest in Rogue and the Doctor, I read it that she had rather fallen for the Doc (well, who wouldn’t) and only realised when she saw him in the face that she’d known, dancing with Rogue, that she really wasn’t his type? The way her face fell as she watched them… But the thing about her Boss is definitely intriguing.

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

Yep, been there, got my gay crush’s Sonic Youth ‘Confusion Is Sex’ t-shirt (I am wearing it today, LOL).

I absolutely did not have ‘time hotel door opens to catch the Doctor’ on my rescue guess list! Enjoyed all of it (and the way it clattered along) until the first resolution, and then I thought ‘oh shit, he is outta there’. Millie Gibson was fab – but I wish they would’ve explained her memory retention as the result of time travel.

My feeling is that Ncuti Gatwa got offered something massive in late ‘24/early ‘25 that necessitated not picking up the option for a third series, everyone knows he’s headed for a ridiculous level of superstardom, so he went with everyone’s blessings.

As to the rest of the episode? You may have heard loud cackling from central London when Omega decided to have a li’l snackie. Dumbass Rani indeed!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@pete66 @thane16

I actually liked most of this series more than the resolution… even RTD1 season enders weren’t normally that barking.

So, I do miss the gritty old prosaic Who. I assume the VR theme is a way of changing the ‘tone.’ If you think about it the show was jazzed up and comic stripped after Hell Bent with ‘Husband’, presumably to facilitate bringing a streaming partner on board.

The problem with ‘The Matrix’, Mindrobbers, Dream Lords and Castrovalvas is, no one really knows what’s happening, not without Russ is dropping hints like ‘Oct 5th’ in Boom.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@pufferfish I agree with your surmise that Ncuti (darn and I’d

 

just gotten used to writing his name without thinking about it) was probably offered  a major medium to long term project probably late 2024 after they’d finished principle photography but before they went into reshoots for season 2. He was probably originally offered a renewable 2 season contract and was possibly a large influence on Disney signing upto the initial overseas streaming deal  for  the fist 2 years which may be why Disney suddenly appeared to cool on renewing the deal late last year if they were informed of Ncuti’s probable departure from the show.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Returning, in a marking break, to chew over a couple of things regarding some of Ncuti’s Doctor’s characteristics.

I liked this more emotional Doctor, but I wanted his weeping to be addressed as having some meaning, seeing as he cried in almost every episode, beyond – eh, this incarnation is just more emotional.

On the other hand, I have not enjoyed Ncuti-Doc’s turn to violence. His torture of Kid, the Hellia terrorist, in The Intergalactic Song Contest, really shocked me. The Doctor has been cold and punishing before. I’m thinking of the fate of The Family of Blood – but, actual physical torture?

I know this was addressed by Bel and the Doctor, in a conversation afterwards, and the Doc admitted he was triggered by Kid’s genocidal intent, as it reminded him of the genocide of his own people. For long-time viewers, we could therefore read Ncuti-Doc’s burst of torture of Kid as a projection of self-hatred, given that (at one point in the timeline) the Doctor himself WAS the genocider of his own people.

But then came the besting of Bone God Omega by simply blasting him in the gob with the Vindicator-as-laser-weapon. I really don’t want the Doctor to become a Marvel-style superhero. The Doctor’s use of his mind to solve problems and confront violence has always been one of his/her marvellous defining features.

On the other hand, I quite liked the way RTD wrote Ncuti-Doc as still somewhat insensitive towards his human companions. The final scene with Ruby and Bel in the TARDIS was a real ouch moment for that, where poor Ruby not only had to go up against the Doc’s insistence her memory of Poppy was false, but she also had to watch Ncuti-Doc all bouncy with Bel over the joy of travelling with a new companion, and seemingly oblivious to Ruby’s pain at being replaced (even though she chose to leave the TARDIS).

I wouldn’t be surprised @pufferfish and @devilishrobby if Ncuti doesn’t show up in a Marvel movie before too long.

I’m glad that he’s also building his theatre career at the same time. Because, let’s face it, Marvel movies pay spectactular money, but they’re honestly drek as truly creatively enriching acting opportunities.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@thane16

I liked the murky, dirty spaceships, the grim worlds, where everything seemed off kilter and cold.

@ps1lOv3y0u

I do miss the gritty old prosaic Who.

Yes! I am in agreement with both of you. I suppose we are missing the 20th century – the world we grew up in.

But at least I have my DVD collection of gritty old prosaic Who in the basement.

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

I have to agree somewhat with @juniperfish‘s comment about the Doctor apparently zapping Omega with something that looks like a big gun, but I accommodated this into my head canon as it not being an actual gun but a force-generator, so its intent isn’t to kill Omega, just force him back into the Underverse! But it’s important that the Doctor fixes things by being the cleverest person in the room, not by violence.

It’s UNIT’s job to wield the weapons and they do that with slightly more effect than they did in the old days. Watching The Three Doctors ( Thanks @craig ) reminded me just how trigger happy they’ve always been – regardless of how effective it is! First reactions are invariably “shoot it”… and 9 times out of 10 it doesn’t work! @blenkinsopthebrave – yes the swivelly tower was great – but why only build your defences beaming forwards in the first place 😀

One thing I picked up on in diving into t’other place – Conrad’s fate.  Ruby latches on to his lack of real family and casts a wish on him – to be happy. That’s very Doctor Who 🙂 And in the end this episode, and maybe the 2 season arc, is all about family – the ones you find – in all their diversity – can be just as good as/better than the one you were born into, especially if that first one let you down.

Having said that, watching Ruby being sidelined as the Doctor and Belinda get overexcited about going travelling, even as their baby suddenly disappeared (from the TARDIS and their memories) was heartbreaking. One thing I thought was really effective – The Doctor and Belinda passing Poppy’s yellow jacket back and forward between them, folding it each time so it gets smaller and smaller.

A loose end that bothers me (as opposed to all the ones that don’t – I can cope with RTD not being as deep on details as Moff who could never leave a loose end untied even if it wasn’t his to begin with) – is the fate of poor Rogue. He’s never going to get out of that hell dimension now. Talk about the “kill your gays” trope!!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

And murky – yes, bring back murky!! One reason The Well is in my top 5 for the last 2 seasons.

What’s everyone else’s top 5?

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@scaryb

 

Only one loose end Scary hells bells there’s the most glaring and itchy loose end ever and RTD has been dangling it infront of us for a good part of the season———- Bring back SUSAN

[Nanoroar @nanoroar]

I liked this season a lot more than the last! (Though I enjoyed that too; I just didn’t find the finale very satisfying).

Just like the last one, this season kept me constantly guessing what was really going on the whole way through, and like last time all my guesses were hilariously off-base. These were kinda wild guesses ranging from: “the Doctor was a forgotten member of the pantheon of chaos who convinced itself it was a baby timelord, and Mrs Flood is just his harbinger” to: “Poppy is the Doctor and this is how they were actually originally created” xD

Do you guys think we’ll get to keep Billy Piper around for a while? I’m kind of suspicious that this is another ‘unfinished business’ regeneration like we had with Tennant, and that the next special episode will see her regenerate once again..

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@scaryb

Murky- do you mean top 5 since thE Gatwa Doctor, or from all of Who?

If it is from all of Who  then the top of my list would probably be the six part Troughton story-“The Web of Fear”. It was a stellar example of murky and gritty.

And–unfortunately–they don’t make them like that any more.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @scaryb

Murky. Gritty.

oft mocked. Very nasty, dumb title: Vengeance on Varos. If the current arc is VR it needs a Visit to a Virtual Varos if only to dunk The V’linx in some Vitriol!

Some will be outraged, but it’s a weird mix of unlikely personal thesp triumph not even JNT and Seward combined could contain: Caves of Androzani. The Doctor, Peri, and the Murky Gritters. Even the bats.

The Web of Fear lurks beyond the back of My Childhood Sofa; but challenged in series 6 by Fury from the Deep, if only enough of it survived (thank you Australian censors for the blacked out mouth horror that we do still have and retch faintly at)

Dalek. The shock of Ecclestone. ‘I made it happen!’ It’s alright Chris, calm down, I believe yer.

Deep Breath? Too long. But I was Murked. And Gritted. “Do you have a kid’s menu?”

And I haven’t even got to World Enough and Time. ‘Tell you what Razor, I’ll mop the floor. You fix a fry up.’ Bill… so, when exactly did the perception filter thing start?

So technically, that’s seven.

 

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Hello, all,

Sorry I’ve not been around but thought I’d pop in for the wrap-up of the series. Overall, I enjoyed it, though wasn’t completely blown away by it. (Didn’t think Lux quite worked personally but the rest of the series was pretty tight imo).

But, let’s face it, what we really want to talk about is the finale so here’s some thoughts in no particular order.

1. I realise I was rather down on 13 during her era but I’ve recently been revisiting her stories and it’s cemented my opinion that she is in fact a great Doctor cursed by some of the most leaden, tedious companions since the 80s. Her actual stories are a collection of significant highs and some pretty dire lows but she’s not the only Doc that can be said of and so I’m putting the blame on the tweedledum and tweedledummer duo of Graham and Ryan dragging her down. Her sparkling cameo this week only confirms this for me and I really wouldn’t say no if she were to come back for another reprise a la Tennant. I think RTD could do some great things with her Doctor.

2. Omega was utterly wasted and didn’t need to be there at all really. Any common or garden foe would have done. Or just having the Rani sucked into the underverse or something through her own hubris would have worked — and have been more in keeping with her character. And it was an absolute shame that there was literally no sign of the pathos that had characterised him in his first two appearances. None of the regret that five, three or two felt in defeating him was remotely in evidence. That said, I was struck by the references to him as both a Titan and a God of Time, which had me equating him to Chronos in (Greek?) mythology. Didn’t he devour his own children to foil a prophecy that one would overthrow him and is eventually forced to disgorge them by the only to survive (Zeus)? Rather than a narrative hand-wave of a couple expendable antagonists, could it be that RTD was setting up both Omega and the Rani for a bigger story arc further down the line?

3. Interested rather than enthused to have seen the Rani back. Never really cared for her as a character and always found her a bit too boo-hiss pantomime damey for my liking. Archie Panjabi did channel that campness really well though and I had no problem thinking that this was another incarnation of that same character. (Also that 80s Who trope of having Time Lords called The Ridiculous Made-Up Name never thrilled me either.) Her bone palace was neat though — and was surely a nod to the Edifice in The Ancestor Cell? It even turned out to be the TARDIS (sort of). And it’s not the first time I’ve felt that RTD was flirting with the tropes of the Faction Paradox (only to shy away from them again).

4. Gonna miss Ncuti. I’d say he was a uniformly great Doctor and was never any less than brilliant. And I did appreciate just how literally joyous he was. Both he and Jodie, I suspect, were a much needed break from a run of darker, more emotionally ambiguous Doctors, but I think I’m ready for something a bit darker again now. Although, like Eccleston and Jodie, I never felt the costume was quite Doctor-ey enough but the kilt and waistcoat look was absolutely killing it. Kinda wish he’d worn that more often.

5. The return of Billie P. Think it’s probably a given that she’s almost certainly not the next Doctor (notice all the equivocations there?) but is more likely something like a liminal Doctor who’s going to guide the next regeneration along. Although maybe RTD is finally setting up the reboot’s version of the Valeyard. An evil anti-Doctor would have just that bit more piquancy if they looked like an old and much-loved familiar face. And Billie Piper could certainly do the villainous thing, if her turn on Penny Dreadful was anything to go by.

[nerys @nerys]

A thought (and yes, I’m reading and loving all the posts … even though I am still awaiting DVDs of Ncuti’s first season). Anyway, my first thought about Billie Piper was, RTD did bring back Tennant Doc to resolve his erasure of Donna’s memories with him. And we know where we last left Rose in the parallel universe with the Meta-Crisis Doctor.

But might there have been some event between Rose and her Meta-Crisis Doctor, similar to what happened to Donna in “The End of Time”? So instead of DoctorDonna, we now have DoctorRose? And, of course, we know where we last left Tennant Doc #14. Might this be yet another loose end to tie up?

[winston @winston]

@nerys  So  we will have a 16th Doctor who looks like Rose and the 14th Doctor who looks like the 10th around at the same time? The possibilities for bonkers theories are endless.

Maybe we need these two to be together to face the Boss, whoever that is.  Maybe the Boss is someone from 10 and Rose’s time together and that is why the Doctor chose that face.

Who nose?

Hope your library comes through for you, mine can take awhile also.

stay safe

[WhoHar @whohar]

It looks like I am out of step with almost everyone on here, barring perhaps @thane16 . I really didn’t enjoy it at all; I wanted to, I really did, but it was an incoherent mess in the main. Spectacle over storytelling, which meant that the big story beats didn’t resonate with me.

I’d expected a regeneration but it didn’t hit home as previous ones have. I think because this has been a truncated couple of seasons with several Doctor-lite episodes, so I was only coming round to Gatwa as the Doc in the last couple of episodes, and this probably tempered my reaction. Normally I start to properly see the new actor as the Doc sometime towards the end of their first season, which would be roughly the same number of eps where Gatwa has been fully present. I like him in other things I have seen but, given he missed a significant amount of the two seasons due to unavailability, it was probably a mistake to cast him.

Billie Piper. Fine actor, and a decent person from what I’ve seen and read, so I hope it works out for her. It does make me wonder why RTD made this choice and why now. I can think of three potential reasons:

1. RTD is leaving and wanted to bookend his tenures by using the same actor.

2. It’s a last throw of the dice to keep Disney onboard by re-introducing a well-loved actor from his first run (or to give the BBC a headline act if they bring Who back independently).

3. RTD’s creative well has run dry.

There is another option: RTD is annoyed at how he’s been treated and so is salting the earth for his successor. I’d be amazed if this is the case given his history with the show. I do wonder if he saw the mess Chibnall left and felt obliged to step in to help, but his heart really wasn’t in it. I guess we’ll find out in about ten years time when he does an update to The Writer’s Tale.

I’m pleased that so many on here enjoyed it. Truly, I am. But for me it was just a series of things that happened that completely washed over me.

 

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar you had me right. I was not particularly impressed. But I need to think a little more….

[syzygy @thane16]

@scaryb

ooh my top 5?
The Well;

73 yards

The Story & the Engine

Rogue

Lux

but I really want to put the Devil’s Chord in there too. And I really liked The Legend of Ruby Sunday. 😀

 

[syzygy @thane16]

Bearing in mind I came to Who in 1975, and so should include more of the pre-gap period, I don’t have the memory to bring all the darkness & grit to mind quickly. I’ll add these more because they’re chilling. But, tomorrow I’d have a different list! And I can’t stop at five (What Pertwee era had a tin foil face hanging in darkness- with glowing eyes?).

Carnival of Monsters

Spearhead from Space/Terror of the Autons

Brain of Morbius

The Empty Child

The Satan Pit

The God Complex, then the 2 parter: Flesh and Stone

aaand at the top: Heaven Sent: “You will run, it will walk. You will rest, it will not. One day you will linger in the same place too long. You will sit too still or sleep too deep. And when, too late, you rise to go, you will notice a second shadow next to yours…….”

[WhoHar @whohar]

@jimthefish

Welcome back.

The return of Billie P. Think it’s probably a given that she’s almost certainly not the next Doctor

I tend to agree, although all bets are off. If she’s not the next Doctor, then what else? As you say maybe an interface between 15 and 16 (RuthDoc? She was again seen in the montage).

The vibes I got off Piper’s, very short, appearance reminded me of her personification of The Moment in The Day of the Doctor. May have been the voice. I don’t have any real idea what this might mean right now.

Unless they can rush out a Christmas special, we’ll probably have a couple of years wait at minimum to find out.

Whoever pays the Piper calls the tune.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@winston  I think Angies boss and The Boss of the Meep are two different people. I have my suspicions as to who just might be Angies boss and it would be logical if you think it through Angie works at the Time Hotel and who is more likely to own it than Susan, being a time lady she surely has time travel knowledge and maybe sent/persuaded Angie into rescuing the Doctor.

Thoughts and discuss

[mikenjenn72 @mikenjenn72]

Crazy theory here. Anita’s baby daddy was Richardo. the Doctor was replaced as dad by a Richard. Rose’s face is now on the doctor. Roses ex’s real name was Micky but the Doctor kept calling him Ricky. what if Micky went bad and is messing with the Doctor. he lost Rose to him so he went bad got a job at the hotel and got girls the Doctor was close to preggers? its really strange that they made a point of both getting pregnant and both by a variation of Richard.

[syzygy @thane16]

@mikenjenn72 interesting…. But I don’t think they will or can bring back Mickey/Ricky any time soon…

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@thane16 I agree especially with the cloud/ history he is under.

[syzygy @thane16]

@devilishrobby I think you’re onto something with Anita’s boss (is it Anita at the Time hotel?) and The Meep’s boss being 2 different people? Anita’s is benevolent whilst The Meep’s not, I assume. I really hoped the Boss angle would be sorted by now! I thought it would be Omega.

Is there a Christmas special? Or is it all some years away now….

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@thane16 Not sure at present, it’s entirely how the BP thing is is going to play out  and how the recommissions of the next series goes, if she’s here as a permanent Doctor  and a new season is given the go ahead I suspect a Xmas special may be in the offing even if all we fan expect over next year is 2 or3 specials as a form of hiatus whilst a permanent Doctor is found if she’s just a fill in “Doctor/whatever”. TBH at this moment nobody is really sure what is happening.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@devilishrobby Susan as Anita’s boss, I like that. Overall, the thought that keeps buzzing around in my head is, is the Reality War really over? I was so perturbed by the Doc and Belinda’s behaviour around Poppy and Ruby, oblivious to the latter’s discomfort, massively unrealistic about the whole notion of taking a baby on their travels, and generally not being their normal selves, more like their personae in the Wish World. And then the Doc regenerates and things are as they should be – or are they? Belinda seems different again, which I suppose is fair enough if it turns out she’s a single mum juggling work and childcare, rather than the person we met in her first episode. I think things are still off kilter though. Where that leaves us in terms of the Billie Doc I have absolutely no idea…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

The top five Gatwa… it’s nuanced (I hope)

Pemiership: Boom, 73 yards, Dot & Bubble, Lux, The Well, Story & Engine,

Championship: Church on Ruby Road, Rogue, Joy to the World, Lucky Day, Interstellar Song Contest, Wish World,

1st Division: Space Babies, Devil’s Chord, Legend, Empire, Robot Revolution, Reality War,

Not saying anything else is as bad as Umpire of Dearth or good as Dot & Bubble.

There is an issue here. Thesis: it’s all VR. How do you know what’s good or bad; it’s all synthetic. And real.

Death of Who:

1. The Fam. The Crowded Tardis. The show is designed for Madman in Box, Exposition and Comic Relief if your lucky. And you to be lucky. And deliver Comic Relief. You have to write.

2. Unreality. Suspension of Belief is at its limit. VR is an issue. Totally relevant today but it also has history: Mindrobber; Deadly Assassin; Ultimate Foe; Greatest Show; Silence in the Library, Amy’s Choice. Might be devine or barking. And… How Would You Know?

The Unit as Fam is annoying but that’s what the forward button is for. VR/AI… unless it’s a mystery, there’s no point; but then you have to give clues or everyone will think it’s sh*t. But the clues are annoying in themselves.

Because suspension of belief is at its limit. There’s a lot of competition: Reith? Three channels? TV license? Marvel brainrot? T’internet brainrot? Do ‘t have to watch this.

What if you’ve lost your audience; people just think, ‘this is sh*t!’?

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Late again, but I didn’t get to watch it until yesterday afternoon, and then I felt I needed a re-watch before commenting.

With my critical faculties dialled back, if not totally suspended, I enjoyed the episode, despite some niggling doubts about narrative points which didn’t seem to fully add up from a logical point of view* . I did feel, though, that it even 65 minutes wasn’t enough time for the amount of material crammed into it, and I agree with @whohar to the extent that the various narrative threads didn’t seem particularly well balanced.

In fact there were two stories here, connected but distinct, and it seemed to me that the one given greater weight was that of the preservation and restoration of Poppy, rather than the confrontation and defeat of the Rani and Omega which one would have expected to be the dominant narrative. As regards the latter, the monster Omega, as a monster, was quite impressive, and the reaction of the Rani, from the moment she saw that giant claw emerging from the opening portal and it began to dawn on her that for all her planning she was never going to be able to use that body for her experiment, was a joy to behold, as was Mrs Flood’s opportunistic grabbing of the time ring and making a rapid exit from the scene. Like some others, though, I think I would have preferred that Omega had retained more of his original humanoid appearance, just as I would have preferred Sutekh in Empire of Death to have borne a closer resemblance to his earlier alien self in Pyramids of Mars.  Personally I would also happily have dispensed with the pyrotechnics and scenes of mayhem in favour of a more extended old style confrontation and battle of wits between Omega and the Doctor, but as things were I saw nothing particularly un-Doctorish in the way the latter seized on how the power of the Vindicator could be used to drive Omega back into the netherworld. The Vindicator wasn’t designed as a weapon, after all, and the Doctor didn’t use it to kill Omega.

The bone beasts were a cause of much speculation, but in the end I’m not convinced that there was much point to them, other than that they looked cool and were the pretext for the spectacular battle scenes. On the other hand they did serve as an indicator of the weakening of the boundary between the wish world and the underverse because in Wish World they were insubstantial, like holograms, and now they had sufficient substance to be smashed by fire power.

The slower paced story of Poppy was intriguing and quite moving, but left me undecided as to what we were intended to make of it and its resolution. Throughout the first six episodes we were left in no doubt that Belinda wanted to return to Earth on the same day as she left, but there was not even a hint as to why and no mention of a child or of her home circumstances other than her work as a nurse, and when she glimpsed the strange child in The Story and the Engine she didn’t identify it as Poppy or that it looked like Poppy as she might have been expected to do if Poppy were her child, and later she couldn’t remember giving birth, which seems unlikely, even if the circumstances in wish world were altered. Early on, in her first adventure with the Doctor, she was even prepared to consider abandoning her old life on Earth and marrying cyborg Alan if it would stop the robot war. So was it just RTD teasing us by withholding  information so he could spring the surprise at the end, or was something else going on. Was Poppy indeed created in the wish world, using the Doctor’s memory of Poppy in Space Babies, and did that stimulate such a strong desire for her to be real in both him and Belinda that later, when reminded of her, he was prepared to sacrifice regeneration power in order to adjust the world to a reality in which she existed. If so, the altered scenes of a past which we were shown, in which Belinda did talk about her child, could be the past adjusted accordingly.

* And why should that bother me at all? It’s Doctor Who 😉

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Did you notice…

The Rani was credited to Pip and Jane Baker;

Omega to Barry Letts (I think, NOT Baker and Martin or Byrne);

The Daleks to Terry Nation. Of course.

But, is that standard form? Or should we expect some screeching pepper pot action? Perhaps some post truth modern and ‘reasonable’ Daleks?

’I am your… SOLDIER. Would you like a cup of TEA??’

[Whisht @whisht]

So that was the finale and it felt like a broken mirror – sparkly with lots of fragments.

In that spirit… my disconnected thoughts!

I think I’m probably more in the camp of @whohar and @thane16 on the finale.

Whoever said “the rule of cool” below is something I also feel about RTD.
“That’s a cool idea/ visual – let’s go with it”.

I honestly thought Omega was entirely wasted.
Bring back an iconic villain!
Then change them into Chronos!
A completely different villain!
Just seemed to be fan-service from RTD (You want Susan? Herer’s Susan! You want Rani? Here’s Rani! You want Omega…)

The Doctor being cruel, firing guns, just didn’t fit with my idea of the Doctor.
But, I did like other aspects (Doctor seeming ‘alien’ and uncaring; the folding of a scrap of a memory; Ruby’s distress; two-Rani’s gag from Dobson “So it’s good night from me..!”)

Ruby as Red Riding Hood (costume). No idea how to link that to anything.
But that’s RTD all over (“yes, that’s cool!”)

BTW is it Ruby’s memories of Space Baby Poppy that gets mixed up into baby-of-Doctor Poppy’s existence?
Ruby remembered while other’s didn’t, and this feels connected (though probably not coherent).

Conrad as “chief chef and bottle washer”.
Weirdly that sobriquet was one a dad of a mate of mine used when we were younger.

“Find a stupid blonde Earth-girl” and then at the end we see a…!

We do have a Chekhov’s Vindicator though.
And it got used.

I honestly hope the series gets a lot less budget next time.
Or uses the budget in pre-production rather than post.

I will have to find some music….

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I have been thinking (over-thinking?) about Poppy and the question of whether we are in a world of reality or not at the end.

@mudlark, the final paragraph of your most recent post was excellent (as always) and helped me clarify my questions regarding the issue. But I am still grappling with it.

Then I started thinking about how  fiction vs reality has been tackled before — by Moffat, in “Amy’s Choice”. Upper Ledworth. Was Rory really a doctor or still a nurse? Who was the Dream Lord, played by the incomparable Toby Jones? Like this finale, it was about making a choice. Amy made a choice there, and Belinda made a choice here. But Moffat seemed to carry it off with style in a concise way that was so different (and superior in my opinion) to the bloated approach of RTD2.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

@mudlark

I have been thinking (over-thinking?) about Poppy and the question of whether we are in a world of reality or not at the end

Unfortunately, we just don’t know. And, in actual fact, we have more questions now than we did before the finale. That shouldn’t be the case. I’m fine with leaving a few threads hanging and to be resolved in the next season, but there are so many unresolved questions still. It’s called a Finale for a reason. RTD has said that he has plans that run for 3 or 4 seasons and this is great if you can pull it off. And he CAN pull it off; he has done in the past. Think of the gap between Tennant’s (Doc 10) hand being chopped off in this very first episode, the fact it was recovered and appeared in a jar in the Tardis, leading up to the Doctor Donna Metacrisis in Journey’s End. That’s long-term storytelling done really well, in that there were payoffs along the way, and a seemingly small detail became central to the story.

That’s not what we’re getting with RTD2, it’s the opposite: lots of ideas thrown out there (e.g. Billie Piper cameo), either without any payoff (e.g. Susan, Mavity, The Boss…), or with an unsatisfactory resolution (e.g. Sutekh, Omega, Ruby, Belinda, The Rani…).

And, dependent on what happens with the show, we may never find out how this all comes together. Clearly the off-screen shenanigans (good word shenanigans) are having a big impact on what we are seeing on-screen, resulting in what, I’m assuming, were a series of hasty rewrites and the February reshoots to accommodate Gatwa’s leaving the show. The finale was basically two stories jammed together. I would be interested in seeing the original version of the finale (if such a print even exists), as I suspect (well, hope) it would have held together much more coherently.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

As @whohar says, there are lots of rumours swirling about hasty reshoots that apparently happened in Feb, involving the regeneration scene, and presumably developing the Poppy story. There are also rumours that Carole Ann Ford’s Susan had another appearance in the finale and leading on to the next seasons. Whether all that was necessitated by problems with Disney, BBC, recommissioning, Who knows! And it is all rumour and speculation for now.

As I mentioned somewhere above, the difference between Moff and RTD is that you can find all the connections in Moff stories if you choose to dig deep enough. And it opened itself up to much bonkers theorising – hence why we’re all here. 😀 RTD does tend to go with the “rule of cool” especially visually, but as WhoHar also mentioned he can do long form when he wants, and may well have had more planned. But we’ll never know. So back to creating our own mad theories! 😀

My theory about Billie is that she may be a temporary interim Doctor till the future becomes clearer.

Meanwhile, here’s a reconstruction of the alternative lost ending of The Feast of Steven, and my favourite avatar, set on the Planet Grimwald 😉 A happy Dugga Doo to you all!! 😀 (It’s got AI generated voices which aren’t brilliant but it gives Sara Kingdom another outing):

 

 

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