The Reality War

[WhoHar @whohar]

@scaryb

My theory about Billie is that she may be a temporary interim Doctor till the future becomes clearer.

I make that 3 theories now:

1. @jimthefish ‘s Interface theory

2. Your interim Doc theory

3. My she’s The Moment theory.

To which I’d add something I briefly saw online:

4. She’s a version of Bad Wolf.

and another thought:

5. She’s another version of Idris from The Doctor’s Wife.

Hopefully it won’t just be clickbait casting.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Billie Piper?

I actually think she’ll be the Doctor for a while. Don’t know how long cos I’m not sure where the program is going. Definitely NOT 7 seasons, most unlikely to be 4.

I think Russ is keen to show to the world how a Ladydoc moves, therefore he forklifts in Whitdoc to say ‘hiya! Bye!’ Essentially. This is exhibit A. And now exhibit B. How much do we like Jo Martin because she was one of Chib’s few genuinely fresh (if cursorily explored) ideas, AND also she wasn’t Jodie? Nothing against Jodie but that ship has sailed.

Because you can’t have broken Ladydocs for ever and ever and ever. That is AN EPIC FAIL. Sorry. Makes a complete nonsense of everything the show stands for. Got to fix it and soon. Therefore three specials is not going to do. Got to be 1 whole series at the absolute minimum.

Not saying it wasn’t a shock though. It’s one of thosr inevitable hindsights.

I imagine (?) Billie knows her career is less high profile than Tennant and Gatwa’s, and that casting gets tougher later on. Ecclestone only lasted a year; he didn’t like the way the industry treated Kate Hardie and wasn’t going to put up with Noel. And he DID NOT have to stick around.

A great many big names may not fancy the job as much as they would say 15 years ago. But maybe the rising stars you really want, your Tennants and Smiths won’t either, cos of the issues post Moff.

Whether Russ’ ability to deliver is as towering as his supreme confidence, I dunno. Who would step into Disney’s shoes without making some content stipulations – having seen the last 2 series? That also goes for The Corporation. A lot of this rides on the spinoff.

Hmmm. Do you think The Mouse did not like the look of it?

 

 

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@scaryb – dammit! I now have the song, and the expression “What a load of dugga-doo” stuck in my head 🙂

On yours and @whohar ‘s mention of “hasty rewrites” – yes, when you think about the first Gatwa series and how much it focussed on the Doctor and Ruby both being abandoned and adopted children, I wonder if Poppy was planned out, at the beginning, to be the Doctor and Ruby’s (presumed) child and Millie Gibson’s departure as the main companion also required rewrites that derailed a more coherent arc about changelings. The Gatwa era, like the Ecclestone era, does feel as if it had a bumpy road behind the scenes.

I like all the theories about who Billie Piper could be, if not the next incarnation of the Doctor, from @whohar @scaryb and @jimthefish .

I’m with  @ps1l0v3y0u that she will be the next Doctor. I do hope she is, because I’d love to see what she does with the part. She was excellent as Rose, but since then Piper has grown into her craft (she was incredible in the adaptation of Lorca’s Yerma) and I’d like to see her given the freedom to use the full range of her abilities as our Time Lord, rather than playing some kind of interim placeholder character as Rose/Badwolf/Moment/Tardis-incarnation on a mission to save the Doctor.

Just to throw another theory into the mix though for fun though… what if she is the Valeyard?

With Tenant2-Doc still knocking about in London, thanks to the bi-generation, if Piper-Doc was the Valeyard that could make for a terrific series where the Doctor has to thwart a rogue version of himself, but one who, for shits and giggles, is wearing the face of the woman he loved.

A couple of articles related to Gatwa’s tenure caught my eye, as it’s Pride Month:

This one in Pink News in which Gatwa talks about his relationship with Who fans and dealing with racist and homophobic abuse from some quarters:

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/11/14/ncuti-gatwa-doctor-who-racism-homophobia/

And this rather lovely one on the BBC about LGBT fans of Doctor Who:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c04edqyzlv2o

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

Billie as Valeyard. Hmmm

I have been predicting the V man for a while, on the back of:

Vlinx

Villengard

REG in the scan; Simeon is still in The Doctors timeline.

And The Great Library (with its own nifty and inhabited VR) might be a super Data Slice to get it all off the ground

Because it’s all weird, isn’t it? It ain’t real. Sutekh wasn’t a god so much as a backward dog.

I thought V might come from 14, however, yes it might easily be 15/16. But 14 accepted Vlinx straight off… also mavity and the pantheon from the wild blue yonder.

I even postulated that a VR might have started (or be retconned) earlier… with absolutely no evidence cos, unless I’m bedridden for weeks I’m never going to watch t’floox. But could t’floox or the Cyberman Ascension (both being barking mad) be the start of a virtual Universal Rewrite? A Cyberium that wanted to ditch it’s organic component would be very interested in top notch VR. And the Great Intelligence (or Architect) might find Cybermooks much more useful than Snowmen, Yetis or Wifi.

So 14 or 15/16? There was also the torture of Kid?! What the hell hero? That can’t just go away.

So we’re all thinking (and we were, weren’t we?)… 14 meets 16: ahhh like Badwolf Bay is back and four hearts beat as one… but 14 or 16 or both could just look at each other and justifiably go urghhh!?? Like 2&3. Or one might say to the other, you are Simeon and I claim £5!

Re Gatwa and the bonehead backlash, as far as this site is concerned, it seemed almost absent this year. Not sure what that means. Certainly not that they’ve gone away.

[winston @winston]

@ps1l0v3y0u     I would also like to see what Billie would be like as the Doctor even if it was just for a series or some specials. I just worry that RTD is playing with us and it turns out differently.

I  saw Chris Eccleston on a panel on youtube and when asked who should be the Doctor he said Billie Piper. He thought it would drive us all (fans) crazy trying to figure out why.This was awhile back and he was joking but here we are.

Well if 14 and 16 met face to face it would be it would be freakier for 14 as he is looking at the face of Rose , a women he loved. The 16th on the other hand is just looking at a very skinny past version of herself. The banter ensues.

I think that Anita’s Boss is Susan and that she created the Time Hotel to keep an eye on her Grandfather. I think the other bad Boss might be the Master or Missy but through the day I think of a lot of stuff and not all of it makes sense.

stay sane

[TranslatorCircuit @translatorcircuit]

The season finale! The final part of a two part story which takes up 25% of the whole series because it was reduced to only 8 episodes thanks to Disney Plus.

It featured a star studded lineup, including Ruby, Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, both current versions of The Rani, and The Thirteenth Doctor.

I think this episode was better than all the previous episodes of this year.

The Rani somehow brings back Omega. I think this counts as a continuity error because Omega has been totally annihilated TWICE before in “The Three Doctors” and “Arc of Infinity”, both times involving anti matter, so that sounded quite final. The writers made up an alternative or additional story about Omega being banished instead of falling into a black hole, which they think somehow explains this, but it actually doesn’t. It sounds more like this version of Omega was created by a wish. I also thought the latest version of Omega as some kind of skeleton looked really awful!

The Doctor and The Rani reveal that The Time Lords and The Doctor lost their ability to have children when Gallifrey was attacked in The Time War. The Doctor said in last year’s series that although he had a Granddaughter, this didn’t mean he had kids, or at least “not yet”. I think this sounds like Susan travelled back in time to first meet The Doctor. However, I read years ago that Time Lords’ time streams are all somehow synchronised together, so in that case it wouldn’t be possible. The meeting between The Doctor and The Master seem to be always in sync, while The Doctor and River Song were travelling in opposite directions through time.

It was very interesting that Susan Triad somehow built a Zero Room, because that’s Time Lord technology, so I’d like to know how that was possible. Kate Lethbridge-Stewart said just before The Doctor left the UNIT Building that they had various equipment which sounded similar to Time Lord technology, but this wasn’t explained either.

This episode is longer than any of the rest, creating some suspense for me wondering what was going to happen. There was some time left, instead of just a few minutes, after The Rani and Conrad had been defeated. I’d heard a few rumours about Ncuti Gatwa leaving soon and even regenerating in this episode, but I didn’t know what to believe, so this was good. I was very sad to see Ruby leave.

The Doctor had already been drained of a lot of regeneration energy in “Lux”, so I was worried he might die altogether. Where did get all this spare energy that he fired into the TARDIS console?

Of course, The Doctor finally regenerated after expending all that regeneration energy. The question is how did he manage to save enough energy to achieve this, though?

Finally, I saw a female face appear, still surrounded by regeneration energy. She said “Oh, Hello!” In what sounded to me like an Australian accent, although I’m from London. After that, I saw in the credits that it was Billie Piper.

Of course, it leaves me very puzzled about what will happen to Doctor Who after this. I’m disgusted that the series has been cut down to only 8 episodes per year (not counting Christmas Specials) since Disney Plus got involved. Various sources are now saying that unless a new series is “commissioned” more or less immediately, then there won’t be “enough time” to produce a series to show next year. It’s obvious to me that this is mainly to do with special effects, but I think that the commissioning should be more or less automatic, like with the classic series, as well as NuWho in 2005-2008. They didn’t seem to have these problems in those days. In 2009, we had David Tennant abandoning the series to go off and play Shakespeare, ending his era with four specials, then some more gap years with other Doctors after that, cheating us out of FIVE years’ worth of series in twenty years! Of course, AFAIK Eastenders, Strictly, and Casualty have never been affected like this. I think that Doctor Who should cut down on the amount of special effects to the levels of 2005-2008 and concentrate on making some more episodes, which also means more than 8 per series, immediately! I read recently that at some time during the classic series the way they produced episodes was spending about 75 minutes filming each 25 minute episode, and only completing some stories a few weeks before they were due to be shown. I also heard recently that the two latest series of Doctor Who were filmed back to back, so this seems to mean that 16 episodes were available last year, but Disney Plus delayed the release of the final 8 for a whole year to fit in with their marketing plans!

Some people think that Doctor Who needs to spend AGES on special effects to compete with other series, but these special effects now seem to be preventing any more episodes being made!

To sum up, I hate what the BBC and Disney Plus have been doing. I think all other series on BBC TV are crap, and the BBC need to sort themselves out NOW!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Of course the other aspects of Rose are:

She was briefly possessed by Lady Cassandra… so she may have insight into reality that 15 didn’t.

She doesn’t have a link to Unit does she? That emerged in series 4. Perhaps she will actually point at The V’linx and say ‘what the flipping hell is that?’ Or ‘er… so who runs your recruitment?’

Having faced off with the inadequate creep from The Impossible Planet, who thought it was a good idea to scribble his face with sharpies, she might not believe every dodgy bit of CGI is sacred, divine and/or demonic.

She may still know where Elton Pope hangs out. What better way to distract The Great Architect than crack his skull open with a concrete slab?

 

 

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@juniperfish —

Billie as Valeyard — yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what happens. It strikes me that they’ve wanted to the Valeyard story for a while but the essential problem with it is that if you do it in terms of the rough A to B to C Doctor chronology then you essentially have to take the Doctor out of the equation as a character. Or at least you did until bi-generation became a thing. Perhaps as you say we’ll see 14 brought out of retirement to face down Billie’s Valeyard and this will result in the regeneration into 16. (Where did I see the suggestion (on Reddit maybe?) that such a scenario could end with them merging in a co-generation to produce the next Doc, which is an idea I kind of like and does sound exactly like the sort of thing that RTD2 might come up with.)

But the more I think of it, the more I think I would just like BP to do a stint as the Doctor. There are awkardnesses to it, sure, but nothing insurmountable and I think she’d bring something really interesting to the part. Besides which, I think there’s been far too much over-reliance on regeneration gimmickry for quite some time now (since late Moffat even). I seem to remember in the Classic show regeneration was never mentioned outside of the actual regeneration stories — it was just a concept dusted down for the mechanics of those stories and then shelved again. That’s the way it should be, I think as to keep bringing it up does tend to undercut the current incumbent — they become merely a Doctor instead of the Doctor. Let Billie be the Doctor and for a decent while with no crossovers, no mentions of regeneration energy or Timeless Children or anything of the sort.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@jimthefish one of the problems I have with BP being the Valeyard is I’m unfortunately old enough (and plenty more) to remember the travesty that was Trialof a Timelord season (ok maybe some of the stories weren’t that bad) but if memory serves me correctly the Master stated that the Valeyard was the distillation of all that is dark and bad about the Doctor also implied that he was a single incarnation , I actually  thought at the time that Michael James (Jayston) would have made a perfect replacement for AnthonyAinsley  as the Master and the Story would have been much better if he had actually turned out to be a future incarnation of the Master. But  getting back to my thoughts about BP being the Valeyard  if she did turn out to be the V that means there would be at least 2 incarnations of the Doctor that were bad. Of course  with Michael Jayston having died just last year they would need extensive CGI to accomplish that though it’s not impossible I suppose, but it wouldn’t really match existing cannon. I suppose RTD has shown he can ignore cannon when it’s convenient for him but I don’t think he would do it to BP. I’m more inclined to believe she’s some kind of inter regeneration thing.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby @jimthefish @juniperfish

Valeyard… Villengard (and therefor their ‘Shell Company’ Harmony Shoal?) Vlinx:

We have limited knowledge of The Valeyard incarnation… basically he’s incarnation 12+

We have limited knowledge of The Master’s incarnations because Who Narrative follows The Doctor’s timeline. So:

? > Delgado > ?

? > Darwan (wielding the TCE) > ?

? > Hot Smoked Master > Tremas > ?

? > Movie Master > ?

? > Yana  > Saxon > ? Missy was pretty non comittal about the Colony Ship experience you must agree.

? > Missy > ? She looked doomed on Skaro. Pre Movie Master was executed on Skaro. She also showed Clara you could charge a teleport with a death ray. So why not Saxon’s laser screwdriver? She was last seen on a ship full of Cybermen. Then turns up on Earth with an army of Cybermen.

It may be tricky to get INTO the Time War, but not impossible. It shouldn’t be a problem to go prior to the Time War (bearing in mind we don’t know when it is) so long as you don’t cross your own timestream. Tremas MUST have knowledge from post Time War and ostensibly preferred doomed Fatdoc to The Valeyard, who MUST have been post Time War himself cos that works for post 12 even if we’re counting Hurtdoc. Ruth might be problematic because we don’t know when, how or why.

So Tremas AND the Valeyard went pre Time War, knowing they could get away with it so long as they didn’t mention The War. In other words we COULD be about to get an early Valeyard… could be 14 or 16 or more probably REG… then they make a really good VR of which the Rani’s is a shonky echo. Later on JaystonV cooks up 6’s trial (using VR) cos 6 is such fat sweaty git and bound to get sent down.

As to why REGV? Simeon is still in The Doctor’s timeline. 11 only rescued Clara. Might be some bootstrapping going on to turn The Doctor in the VR after which REGV as Great Intelligence or Great Architect, retro designs the VR.

If you can’t thwart The Doctor then become him. But you might want a bigger flow chart.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@all,

It strikes me that all this talk about Billie Piper, entertaining as it is and allowing for much bonkers theorising as it does, actually does a bit of a disservice to Gatwa’s tenure. All the Internet is talking about right now is BP’s appearance in the last ten seconds of an hour-long episode. Nothing about the outgoing Doc’s tenure, as would be usual. This mirrors, to some extent, the way Gatwa’s doc was somewhat undermined by the bi-generation, and the corollary that Doc 14 was still around and (presumably) could return at any time.

I think RTD really (I mean really) wanted Gatwa in the role but, due to his unavailability, RTD came up with workarounds to allow this to happen (return of Tennant for the 60th Specials, bi-gen, Doctor-lite episodes), perhaps without thinking through the consequences. When the ratings tanked and Disney got cold feet re the renewal then, given the uncertainty, Gatwa (rightly) decided to move on to protect his career. This resulted in a somewhat panicked RTD calling up Piper to fill the void in some way TBD, and here we are.

I could, of course, be way off here and RTD has a (ahem) Masterplan, which he is adapting on-the-fly but I don’t think this is the case.

Just my 2c.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar  well said. I think you are correct. Also bringing back B.P. has made headlines, and all publicity is good publicity as the old adage goes. so maybe RTD is endeavouring to pull off another Dr Who rescue. He says he has scripts written for another series. He is determined, I think, to make that happen with or without disney. cynical, yes. Desperate, yes. Will it work, maybe. I hope it does because if that is what it takes to keep the series going then so be it. I want more Doctor Who.

I also agree that there has not been enough discussion of Gatwa’s tenure which was rather comet like, bright but brief. He did not have nearly enough time but he made the most of that time. He made an impression from the outset, he owned the role whereas I often feel that other actors take time to really get their personal stamp on it. N.C. was the Doctor. I am glad that there are some wonderful episodes from these last two series that will be re watched in this house at least. Every actor that has ever been the Doctor will always be the Doctor.

cheers

Janette

[nerys @nerys]

Somewhat related to the discussion of regenerations and Gatwa’s too-brief tenure as the Doctor:

I watched a video of all the regenerations and was reminded of how melodramatic they tend to be. On first viewing, that’s fine, but subsequent viewings don’t carry as much emotional weight for me.

I was also reminded of another even shorter tenure: Paul McGann. After having seen the TV movie in which he played the Doctor, I was grateful that it was a one-off. But then I saw “The Night of the Doctor” that set him up for John Hurt’s War Doctor, and McCann was so good that I lamented him getting such short shrift.

Of course, Hurt’s tenure as the Doctor was brief … but it was meant to be.

[Whisht @whisht]

So many good thoughts re: GatDoc’s tenure and how it might have been overshadowed by the stunt at the end (“Billie Piper!”) although that stunt might have been more knowing (please invest in another season) rather than “this would be cool!”.

You’re all also better at understanding the past storylines etc so I’ll just bonkerise without guardrails.

IF BillieRegen were the Moment (again), could she be a warning/ conscience for GatDoc for creating a universe ‘even a degree’ off?
Isn’t that a form of annihilation that the Moment might have wrought?

GatDoc might agree.
Kindly as a genie-sque character she might give him 3 wishes, one of which is that Poppy might live as a child, if not his daughter.
(the other two wishes might be… I’ll come back to maybe).
If so he might thank the Moment/Regen/Billie and say “you’re right. I don’t deserve this face”

Regeneration into….

BillieDoc.
Huh?
OMG She was the Moment for a Moment and now is actually the Doctor for a season!!

All our strings are pulled.

RTD3…

;¬)

[nerys @nerys]

@whisht OMG She was the Moment for a Moment and now is actually the Doctor for a season!!

Oh, I like that!

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

Hi guys been a while, been trying not to avoid and procrastinate other work, but I had to come here just to say – could Piper be the Tardis? Another kind of physical incarnation of the Tardis? Rose looked into its heart and almost died as a result, could there be some kind of an imprint made? Sort of related to what he was doing that caused him to die?

 

(As well as, you know, placeholder, stunt casting, they haven’t decided yet etc).

 

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@miapatrick good to hear from you! Hope you’re well.

I like that idea: Rose as Tardis. People have speculated that there’s something in the way she says “hello.” She’s thrilled and intrigued rather than freaked out. Nor is she in any pain- as we’ve seen in most regens? I was just rewatching 11th Hour and that particular regen had a lot of yelling!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@miapatrick

could Piper be the Tardis?

That is an inspired idea! I opens up all sorts of possibilities for how the new Doctor deals with their new found appearance, character, etc.

Champion bonkerizing!

[janetteB @janetteb]

Love the bonkerising. Sadly I fear the reality will be far more mundane. I would settle for BP guesting for a Christmas Special then handing over after next year. I suspect that N.G left with little warning leaving the need for a hurried regen’ and BP offered to do the honours. I just hope that the writers are reading this thread for ideas of how to progress narratively because the bonkers theories are always better.

cheers

Janette

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb

Agree with your analysis, I think that is exactly what’s happened.

@miapatrick <hello, welcome back> @blenkinsopthebrave

I suggested in an earlier post that Piper might be another version of Idris from The Doctor’s Wife, so similar to your Tardis idea.  I hope this is what pans out on screen as it’s the most palatable option, for me at least.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

Sorry that I missed your post on Billie Piper as the Tardis. It must have been a second glass of wine scan on my part…

But, also champion bonkerizing!

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@thane16 Hi, thank you! and ish.

Yes the ‘hello’ really struck me. There’s usually a moment of confusion – though not so much I think with Fifteen? But at least, maybe a sense of being newborn. She was more as though she’d stepped through something.

@blenkinsopthebrave – yup, when I thought it, I thought I knew the lot that would appreciate it!

@janetteb – yes, I wish for once they really would. I’m never really disappointed with a RTD finale to be fair because my expectations of him are generally – intriguing set up, slightly frustrating landing. Not that there arent’ holes to pick in Moffat’s, or that I don’t think there have been better endings offered here for his series, but they’re more satisfying for me.

@whohar – excellent company to be in.

And to be honest I hadn’t formed the Piper-Tardis theory till I saw Reality War. I just felt a shiver of resemblance, the importance of ‘hello’, as well as Piper bathed in regeneration light – and also, to be honest, what reason would annoy me least- might I actually like. Because there’s a canon explanation right there, Rose has been exposed to the Tardis energy, which the Doctor has then taken on, and he’s just used his own regeneration energy to manipulate the time vortex. It’s more meaningfully full circle than just ‘featuring Billie Piper’. And it will be the second time Piper has played someone/thing else with Billie’s face.

None of this means it’ll happen, if anything its a fairly neat and logical explanation, which means ….

 

overall, this series of all series present the problems for readers when a work is still ‘live’. All the intertextual connections we can make, the stories we can create out of the material are just there to be – completely contradicted by the next instalment. But sometimes the formation of the bonkers theories is fun enough for its own sake. And these are works that make us want to interact with them. Especially when Doctor Who draws on so a large and varied intertext as the huge body of work that comes before it, with which we all have our own personal responses.

 

I am a little upset about Rogue, though. Did he just burn through an entire River arc in one episode (the first time they meet he A: tries to kill him then B: dramatically sacrifices his life for him)? Or will he get his night in Darillium?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@miapatrick
As opposed to the idea that a hypothetical ‘Rosedoc’ mimics a personification of The Tardis, like Idris or The Moment Interface, could it actually be the other way round? Who has actually looked onto the Heart of The Tardis?

Moviemaster

Slitheen Woman

And Rose… I think we know which one was preferred by the Blue Box. So was Rose kept as a template, influencing the possessed character of Idris and rippling into the conscience of The Moment?

If we assume The Doctor’s relationship with The Tardis is almost symbiotic (when the Doctor has a problem The Cloister Bell tolls) then he/she might be as amenable to a ‘Rose Shape’ as Lady Cassandra was.

Rogue… I think a lot of what we’ve seen in these two series are echoes of The Doctor’s history: an attempt to ground and build the VR around him. But there is feedback. Rogue isn’t safe in a nice VR… it’s hell. In rescuing Rogue will The Doctor actually regain River? If the VR is very very good. The virtual opposite of ‘what happens if you die in Real Life?’

[WhoHar @whohar]

@miapatrick

Because there’s a canon explanation right there, Rose has been exposed to the Tardis energy, which the Doctor has then taken on, and he’s just used his own regeneration energy to manipulate the time vortex.

I like this very much. Well done.

[winston @winston]

After thinking on the last series and after 15s sudden regeneration I am sad to see him go before we really got to know him. He is the mysterious Doctor to me, almost a stranger. There were times  when he was angry that I thought “the Doctor is in there” but other times I struggled to see them. He also made me tear up more than any of them but then I am a professional support crier. You cry and I’ll cry. He also had a very beautiful and engaging smile. Maybe he is the charming Doctor.

My biggest regret for 15s time as the Doctor is that he never got to face any daleks. He would have been great!

My bonkers theory is that Rose has used the energy created by the regen or the time shift to come through to the Doctors current location because she needs his help. That’s why it looks like she walks through all the shiny stuff and says “Hello”. I think she is our Rose and that she is greeting a Doctor we haven’t met yet. Wow that hurts the brain.

stay sane.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@winston I like your bonkers theory too. That would be a good way to introduce an as yet to be cast Doctor. I hear via the rumour mill of kids following on line rumour mills that RTD is desperately trying to get financing for another series. He might well be using Billie Piper as leverage, though in what capacity probably doesn’t matter so much.  (I just do hope he looks in on this forum occasionally and picks up ideas, if not he is missing out on a goldmine)

cheers

Janette

 

[nerys @nerys]

@winston Piggybacking on your bonkers theory, what if Rose is returning to meet No. 14? We got a reunion between Tennant Doc and Donna. It wouldn’t surprise me to see RTD reunite him with Rose, and then, same as with Gatwa Doc, do a bi-generation into No. 16.

[winston @winston]

@janetteb     You are so right. RTD could get so many great story ideas from us. I love Rose, she is the first companion in the first Who I ever watched and I was gutted when she left although happy that she got her own Doctor. Billie Piper could be anyone and I would be pleased.

I just felt that she seemed so happy and saying hello to who? It  seemed like she was our cheery, smiling Rose and not a Doctor at all. I am probably totally wrong but fun to think of.I guess we might have to wait awhile to see.

@nerys   Bi-regeneration has opened up so many possibilities for bonkers theories and alternate story lines. Who knows what will happen?

stay safe

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Great to see Anita again! I like the return of the Time Hotel.

Okay, so it was Omega – as theorised in various posts on this site, I think.

Why is the Doctor wearing a skirt?

All this Unit personnel starting off to save the world with the stirring music is a bit – bombastic. Can’t say I like it. RTD has a tendency to go OTT on these things.
It was really nice to see Rose (2) and Ruby again, pity they’re just bit players in this episode. Rose just had a walk-on part. Just too many people.

The Doctor says he has the only Tardis in existence. Has he forgotten the American Diner? Or does he have no memory of that?

Time Ring. Is that new? Couldn’t the Rani have used a vortex manipulator?

So all this exchange between the Rani and the Doctor in the Unit control room – just lost me. I understand it, mostly, but I just can’t muster up any enthusiasm. RTD has jumped the shark. “Open the parallax cannons. Fire!” “Galvanic beams at maximum. Fire!” This is the sort of gobbledegook Doug Adams took the piss out of in Hitchhiker.

That ‘Zero Room’ looks remarkably like the Pandorica. And I’ve just realised why I find it hard to muster a lot of feeling for Belinda – in the last couple of series we’ve had Rose (2), Ruby, Belinda and Anita – and it takes longer than that to build up an attachment to a Companion.

Quite why the control room is shaking and bits of ceiling falling down, I don’t know, since the Bone Beasts haven’t reached it yet. And exactly what function the Rani’s Seekers are supposed to perform, other than looking weird and chanting ‘Omega’, I don’t know. Or why there needs to be four (?) of them.

Of course Omega’s double heartbeat is very reminiscent of the Master’s dah-dah-dah-dah from The Sound of Drums. I have to say Omega is one singularly ugly – corpse.

Jeez, give the symphony orchestra a rest, will ya. It’s just over the top.

Well, I have mixed feelings about this episode. Don’t hate it, but it’s all a bit Star Wars Disney for my tastes. Of the double episode, the first third of Instalment 1 was (I think) the best.

And it was nice to see Rose (1) again at the end.   Be fun to see where that’s going.

[TranslatorCircuit @translatorcircuit]

@dentarthurdent

The Doctor is wearing a kilt, as he has done many times before. It has tartan, but a kilt doesn’t even have to have tartan on it to be a kilt. It’s a kilt because it wraps around itself and is fastened with a few straps, as well as having small pleats near the straps. As for the Doctor or anyone else wearing skirts, why not?

I don’t know why the Doctor said he has the only TARDIS in existence. How would he know?

Now for some explanations from classic Who which you said fans don’t need to watch.

1. A Time Ring was seen only once before in the Fourth Doctor story “Genesis of The Daleks”, the Daleks’ origin story made 12 years after the Daleks first appeared. Fans say it’s a different timeline from previous Dalek stories, but there are continuity errors in those stories anyway. The Daleks were originally all killed at the end of their first story. It’s essential viewing because it’s influenced all Dalek stories since then. The Time Lords intercepted a transmat beam carrying the Doctor and his two companions Sarah-Jane and Harry. You probably don’t know Harry. A Time Lord wearing a unique costume told the Doctor they wanted him to visit the Daleks’ home planet of Skaro and either prevent their creation or affect their development to make them less malevolent. The Time Lord then told the Doctor he was already on Skaro. His TARDIS was on a space station in Earth’s solar system, though. He gave the Doctor a Time Ring, telling him not to lose it because “That Time Ring is your lifeline!” Obviously, this was just a plot device to create suspense, then he lost it twice. The Time Lords could easily have transported the Doctor and his two companions safely off Skaro after the mission was complete.

2. The Zero Room was introduced, as well as deleted, in the Fifth Doctor’s first story “Castrovalva”. It’s described as a place totally isolated from the rest of the known universe. According to the companion Tegan, this allegedly makes it similar to Brisbane, or according to me parts of Devon, SW England. Have you ever been to Brisbane? The Zero Room is Time Lord technology and even the gravity is only local, so it’s easy to levitate. I don’t think Susan Triad could have built one. The Doctor could easily have reconfigured the TARDIS to create a new Zero Room, but never has.

As for the symphony orchestra, it’s just another example of what’s lacking in NuWho, meaning the amazing BBC Radiophonics Department incidental electronic music, which added so much atmosphere to lots of stories in the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Doctors’ eras. This was originally done in the Third Doctor story “The Sea Devils”, though.

 

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Having just read all the comments –

I agree with @ps1l0v3y0u that the middle of the series was stronger than the start/end. But then, as far as endings go, RTD has a habit of throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it. I don’t think that works particularly well with Doctor Who, it tends to distract us with the minutiae of UNIT which diminishes the human interest of the Doctor and his companions. This was, though, way better than last season’s finale.

As @cathannabel said, I think Anita had totally fallen for the Doctor (that interlude in the Time Hotel was charming), and her boyfriend was very much a consolation prize. And seeing the Doc and Rogue established (for her) that her daydreams about her and the Doc could never have happened.

Just comparing RTD season finales with Moff’s, I’ve noticed that RTD tends to have world-shattering themes – where Moff is much more limited, more personal, and therefore (IMO) much more effective. I’m thinking of Death in Heaven, or Hell Bent, or The Doctor Falls. I know this finale was very personal indeed (the Poppy sequence), except it felt somehow tacked-on, as if the ending had been grafted on when it became known that Ncuti was going to leave the show. I could be wrong about that, of course.

As @jimthe fish noted, Omega was a fairly short-lived disposable (and quickly disposed of) villain, and any big threat would have done.

I agree with @whohar, the regeneration didn’t grab me as much as previous ones have. And this may be because we’ve seen so many regenerations now, or because this Doctor – after just two seasons – just hadn’t impressed himself on my subconscious as much as previous Doctors, not only that but we’ve had four Companions in two seasons – Rose(2), Ruby, Anita and Belinda – so they too feel ‘temporary’ and the effect of the Doctor regenerating on his companions was diluted. I’m not sure I’m putting that very well.

And who is Anita’s boss? Evidently someone with some power, but a complete mystery to me.

The scene where Omega emerges and eats the Rani – I was expecting something more cunning from the Doctor, somehow playing the Rani and Omega off aganist each other. Like, say, the three-way standoff between Ten, the Master and Rassilon in The End of Time. This Doctor has been getting more violent, and his (is-it-still-a-) Screwdriver more and more powerful, as the series goes on.

And I agree with @jimthe fish, that I’d like to see Billie Piper as the Doctor for a good long time – say 3 series at least – (assuming they ever get made) so she can settle in to the part. Rather than just being the temporary title-holder. I have no logical problem at all with Billie (Rose) being the Doctor, after all Capaldi was the Doctor perfectly convincingly even though he’d previously had a significant role in an episode. And Billie had no problems with being the Interface for The Moment. So in the world of Doctor Who, all things are possible.

@miapatrick – I like that idea very much – that Rose looked into the Time Vortex. She is still full of the energy from that. Does that link her to the Tardis? Or does she still loom so large in the Doctor’s memory that, like The Moment choosing her for its Interface, the Tardis picked her as a ‘familiar face’. We know that happened with Capaldi and his earlier appearance in the Pompeii ep, and Rose has a stronger reason for being present in the Doctor’s memory. Whatever the options, that’s a good canon reason for her reappearance.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@translatorcircuit   If that was a kilt, why didn’t it have tartan on it?   And why would this Doctor wear one?   I could understand it if 12 (Capaldi) wore one, he was Scottish, as a number of jokes testified.   (And number 9 was from ‘the North’.   I don’t know if 10 (Tennant) was Scottish too?)    Of course we know they weren’t Scottish or northerners or from anywhere except Gallifrey, but it seems individual Doctors could identify as having some ethnic/geographical origin.   Quite why all Doctors regenerated as humanoids, rather than e.g. Sontarans, would be an interesting question.   I suppose the gallifreyan phenotype was humanoid so they regenerated into something not too physically different.

Your point 1 – the Time Ring.   Okay, I didn’t know it had been used before, I withdraw my minor point of criticism of RTD on that score.   But does that really matter to my understanding of this episode?   It’s obviously a time/teleport device, like the Vortex Manipulator or any teleport bracelet.

2.   Again, the background of the Zero Room doesn’t really impact on my understanding of the episode, since it’s described quite well in the dialogue.

In general, any of these references back to old episodes are dealt with in such a way that you don’t have to know the backstory, deliberately for the benefit of new viewers.   So I maintain that I don’t need to watch all of oldWho to appreciate nuWho.   It’s fine to watch older eps if you want to, but not essential.   Can you point me to any factoids from oldWho that are essential to understanding any nuWho plot?

Devon – I’ve been through Devon several times.   Probably the most isolated part would be Dartmoor.   I’ve been through Brisbane a couple of times as a transit passenger, it’s my favourite Aussie airport for that, the transit lounge has all the architectural merit of a farm shed but it’s *comfortable*, which outranks 90% of the (far more pretentious) airports I’ve been through.   Neither place struck me as ‘totally isolated from the known Universe’.   Trying to think of a place like that – in NZ, might be the Waitaanga plateau, or parts of the Mackenzie country or even Fiordland.   But surely Australia has many parts of the Outback that would fit that description.

I agree the electronic music was more distinctively Who.   But I don’t mind the orchestra as such, if it’s used with restraint, just that in this episode there was so much ‘heroic’ music going on it distracted from the story and became bombastic.   This would actually have been a (slightly) better episode with a more restrained soundtrack.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

for the record, can I just say I have Nothing to do with Deep Thought… more like Roosta or maybe Zarniwoop.

Seriously, can someone string up the non sci fi focus groups and actually do research and writing?

Russ season enders? MHO:

Good (but not that good);Bad Wolf plus, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday; Utopia plus

Indifferent; Stolen Earth+, End of Time, The Giggle,  Reality War.

Bad; The Umpire of Dearth

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

as if the ending had been grafted on when it became known that Ncuti was going to leave the show. I could be wrong about that, of course.

That was my take too. It was very jarring to watch.

Side note: apparently Gatwa has been saying the reason he left was because he was too old. He’s 32 btw. He said the physical side was difficult and that he had a damaged knee from filming.

Other side note: Apparently RTD said he wanted to position Who away from the more macho sci-fi. I find this a really strange thing to say, as Who was one of the least macho sci-fi shows out there.

Something doesn’t sit quite right here (with either statement). I guess we’ll find out in due course…

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar   Who *was* one of the least macho sci-fi’s, once.   The last few eps, the Doc has been getting increasingly macho, shooting things with his enhanced sonic gun – I mean screwdriver, posing with macho orchestral music blaring – kind of the opposite of what RTD said.   Maybe Disney got at him – the Star Wars influence.

I did find the sudden transition 10 minutes from the end, from battle to domestic bliss very disconcerting.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u   I pretty much agree with your ranking of RTD  Who season enders.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @dentarthurdent

The ending… it did seem like a bolt on. To the extent that, though there was supposedly a ‘reason’ to regenerate I just know, if I check it out, I’ll think it was nonsense.

It’s a pity because the rest of the series built up quite a head of steam, even if the ratings were in the basement. The worst regeneration story since McCoy had to don Baker’s coat of many colours and the curly wig. And I know everyone was desperate to be nice about Jodie Whittaker but… WHAT? Compare that to the gravitas of Karen Gillen (also in a wig) descending the stairs to talk to her Raggedy Man.

Oh for Saxon going doolally and stuffing pulled grease spot flipper in his brioche bun, or for Dalek/Cyberman dead pan snarly face offs, or even Davros technobabbling the reality bomb. Does the abstract threat of VR nullify the glorious nuttiness of an all out RTD season ender??

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent @ps1l0v3y0u

Who *was* one of the least macho sci-fi’s, once. The last few eps, the Doc has been getting increasingly macho, shooting things with his enhanced sonic gun – I mean screwdriver, posing with macho orchestral music blaring – kind of the opposite of what RTD said.

100% agree. The messaging coming out of the show continues to be at odds with what we see on screen and what we know.

And I know everyone was desperate to be nice about Jodie Whittaker but…

Yeah, the reaction was a bit OTT for me. Apparently she is in a good Big Finish audio right now, with Yaz. Maybe BF will rescue 13s reputation the same way it did with 6.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u   I think the reason for 15’s regeneration was to use some of the regeneration energy to disturb the universe sufficiently to being into existence Poppy, a virtual kid of which he had no memory and only existed in Conrad’s dream world.   (Or something like that).

@whohar    Jodie Whittaker’s appearance wasn’t cringe, but it did seem a bit like ‘let’s wheel out another old character for the fans’.   I thought it was going to be Ten/14, which might have been more fitting given his extensive experience with regeneration…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @whohar

‘Macho’… even pre Chib Nuwho had Timelord Invictus, Good Man C*cks It Up Good and Proper, Epic Sulks, Confession Dials and Other Idiocies.

I’ve no quarrel with the ‘tone’ of RTD2, more the execution, which again may be down to the story. But will we ever know? Will a big break demolish the precious continuity? Can the beancounters finally ditch Cartmel 2.0 and get the nice safe show they always wanted?

The tetchiness of 15 and Kate I reckon is down to the Remembrance element of the October 5th connection. 7 had a damn good go at committing Genocide. Will that now be resolved?

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