Thin Ice

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    Mudlark @mudlark

    @mirime @nick

    This is straying a long way of topic, but no, I find it hard to believe that anyone could mistake a Welsh accent for that of Lincolnshire 🙂  Nor, for that matter, is the Norfolk accent, rural or urban, anything like the Cheshire accent.  The fact that I seem to have inherited traces of the latter is entirely down to my mother and my relatives on her side of the family, because I have never lived there, whereas I did grow up in Norfolk. My mother was born and grew up in Stockton Heath, near Warrington, but her mother and maternal relatives were from the Hartford/Cuddington/Delamere area, and from Kelsall before that, and her father’s family were originally from the Audlem area, near the Shropshire border. My grandmother and those of her sisters who were still alive in my childhood all spoke with the rural accent, and by all accounts my grandmothers gt gt grandmother, who died in 1875 at the age of 90, spoke broad Cheshire dialect.


    Faced with the task of trying to make statistical sense of the dating and distribution of the many hundreds of Roman coins found in the township I am researching, I found it more tempting to follow your links and to attempt the quiz.  My score was 10/10 😀  (and I didn’t cheat). The only one I wasn’t entirely sure of was the name of the pub, as it  hadn’t registered in my consciousness but, given the date of the ice fair and a certain naval battle which had taken place nine years previously, it wasn’t difficult to make an educated guess.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    Drat. Note to self: always spell-check post before being called away for coffee.

    Redlemons @redlemons

    @wolfweed not to disagree but Missy said the doctor gave it to her when she had her daughter and she showed a cameo pin.  I find it hard to believe that someone would give a man a cameo pin.  But in the scheme of things anything is possible.

    Mersey @mersey

    So far this season lacks characters, interesting and memorable people whom Doctor meet, who help him or quite the opposite, who oppose him. It’s two or three characters show right now.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    That I take as a reference to the Fourth Doctor story The Invasion of Time, which is the only other occasion I can remember the Doctor taking an oath, when he becomes President of the Time Lords and takes the oath to recover the Great Key of Rassilon

    Much as I hate to torpedo a fine bit of bonkerising, I think the reference is to the Pertwee story The Time Warrior. As to other oaths, I’m not sure. Depending on what kind of Doctor he actually is, he might have taken the Hippocratic one?

    But could you tell that story in a single 50/55 minute episode of AG Who and do full service to the idea ?

    Probably not, I agree, which kinds of feeds into the conversation (of last week?) where we briefly talked about the ‘sweet spot’ in length of a modern Who episode. My personal feeling is 75 minutes is the ideal length.


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Regarding the cameo brooch – we certainly wouldn’t give it a man, but these are Gallifreyans. As the Smith Doctor said once, they have no dress sense.

    At one point gold eye-shadow for men appeared to be the height of ceremonial fashion. (The Deadly Assassin). The Sixth Doctor, whose taste apparently went full-on Time Lord, was fond of brooches as well – he wore a cat brooch. The Fifth went for celery … so the manly Gallifreyan has no problem with wearing eye-shadow, brooches, fob watches, rings, or jackets that look like an explosion in a clown factory.

    So the brooch could be a typically Moffatian red herring; maybe this isn’t the first time Missy has been a woman, or maybe it is – because Gallifreyans would see that brooch as unisex. 🙂

    [Just don’t mention the taste in hats, okay? No wonder River kept shooting the things.]

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    on the question of the one episode, one story format, sure, a 6 part story on property, theft and slavery might be great, but the reality is that viewing habits have changed over the years. They did a brilliant multiple episode story on religion and human sacrifice back in the Hartnell years–The Aztecs.

    But that was the mid 60s. They would only do a 6 parter for something pitched to an adult audience these days.

    given the realtors of viewing habits of kids today, I think they did a pretty good job of raising the awareness of issues like property, theft and slavery in the context of a kid’s show in 45 minutes.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    given the realtors of viewing habits


    Honestly, I really hate the way my phone decides on my behalf what the word should be!

    Nick @nick


    I agree of course. My point was that addressing this sort of issue, really takes time and effort. The counter argument is that raising them superficially is better than not mentioning them at all.

    But then what age group is this series of Who aimed at ? I would suspect not the 5 to 10 year old group (when I started watching Who back in the 70s). The stories don’t strike me as being exciting enough. Presumably not the late teen/young adult group that Class was aimed at (wasn’t that really one long story split into several episodes).

    So I guess that means Adults plus younger teenagers (“Family”), which younger kids watch. I would suggest you could get away with a longer story over several parts so long as you wrote it that way. This demographic watches Coronation Street and Eastenders, which have dealt with quite adult topics over the years.

    Mirime @mirime

    @mudlark The accents weren’t confused, it was the disagreement over ‘book’ and ‘buck’. My husbands pronunciation is clearly confused.

    I have no ear for accents anyway, unless they’re very strong.

    @bluesqueakpip there is absolutely nothing wrong with a fez! Though mine is nicer than the one the Doctor had and I don’t wear it outside or anything it is definitely cool.

    But yes, on Gallifrey a cameo brooch might be a perfectly acceptable present for a man.

    As for the vault,  I’m trying to decide if it’s something we’ve seen/heard of  before or not.

    @nick my four year old is showing an interest in Doctor Who but I’m struggling to find an episode to let him watch.  It would be a bit easier if he hadn’t decided he really liked the ‘pretty lady’ – Clara.

    Of course I was watching it from when I was three.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    So far this season lacks characters, interesting and memorable people whom Doctor meet, who help him or quite the opposite, who oppose him. It’s two or three characters show right now

    Well, there’s a clear and deliberate decision to keep the focus on the Doctor and Bill for these early episodes, presumably to strengthen and firmly establish their relationship. I think that’s something that’s clearly going to pay off in later episodes.

    On the other hand, I thought Kitty and co were pretty memorable and Sutcliffe, while perhaps not a nuanced character, was pretty memorable too in a loathsome Bullingdon-ey kind of way.


    I’d argue that Who has always worked on multiple levels in terms of age groups. When I started watching, I no doubt did so for the monsters and as I got older I gradually began to ‘get’ more of what the show was about.

    Mersey @mersey


    Don’t mind me, it’s just my usual moaning. I’ve noticed that because for the last two days I menaged to rewatch the whole season 1 and now I’m watching season 2. Both are full of memorable characters even in the first three episodes. @morpho has pointed out that Thin ice is the Beast below II and I agree but I like Beasty better precisely because of the memorable characters as Liz (Maybe Bill is her ancestor, she’s gay but so what, she can have baby), Mandy and creepy robots.

    Nice to see that someone else appreciates season 5. That’s my favourite season but I’ve had the impression that it hasn’t many fans here.

    Funny thing that when the boy died under the ice Bill was devastated but when Doctor practically killed the guy with tattoo (made him died under the water) it was all fine. I can see the difference, but it was still human life. And Doctor was merciless.

    Nick @nick


    Oh I’d agree 100%.  I also agree that AG Who seems to work best with 75 minute episodes. It’s a shame they aren’t making many of those. I guess its a scheduling issue more than episode cost.

    Did you ever watch Nathan Barley (written by Charlie Booker and Chris Morris) ? Truly loathsome character. Nicholas Burns is a way underused actor imo.


    My earliest memories are age 5 (the 1971 Master arc), but I know I was watching before then. I probably watched Pat Troughton in 1969. I used to have a recurring nightmare with Ice Warriors in it – I think. This would probably be based on Seeds of Death, but I’ll never know for sure. Having watched it, no memories were tweaked.

    I would suggest pretty much any recent story, but we’re a lot more protective of Children these days. My parents grew up as pre-teens through second world war (my paternal Grandad was in North Africa and Italy for most of the war) so perhaps they were more relaxed. I certainly hid behind the sofa. I’m pretty sure it didn’t do me any harm.

    Redlemons @redlemons

    @bluesqueakpip yes you are right.  I guess if you can change from man to woman or woman to man, clothing and accessories wouldn’t matter.  On the hat issue, I love hats cowboy, fez or top!  And as for program watching like meals most families don’t do this together anymore.  In fact I know very few tweens and teens that watch tv at all at least boys don’t.  They are on Xbox, ps 4 or you tube.  I am actually liking that this is the Doctor and Bill show at least in the beginning.  No real protagonist.  I get the feeling that they are setting us ( the Doctor and Bill) for a major one. Can’t wait!

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    Funny thing that when the boy died under the ice Bill was devastated but when Doctor practically killed the guy with tattoo (made him died under the water) it was all fine. I can see the difference, but it was still human life. And Doctor was merciless.

    Yes, he was rather. Although you could argue that he was in fact trying to save him by getting him to throw the sonic back to him. (And can I just say that I’m not really loving this design of the sonic? Eleven’s was a much more iconic and classic design.) But it does rather take the shine off the Doctor’s rather splendid speech to Sutcliffe that he let the thug die so easily.

    But it’s easy to forget that the Doctor is merciless. There’s countless examples throughout all the regenerations of him being quite hard-hearted. And this was essentially the lesson that Bill was learning in this episode, that he’s not always cute and cuddly and avuncular.

    Mirime @mirime

    @mersey Bill wasn’t completely unaffected though, difference being that the child was a child, the guy with a tattoo was a thug who was going to let her and the Doctor die and a lot more people were going to die if they didn’t do something.

    @nick Castrovalva for me, I was four and a half. Anything before that I don’t remember any stories just the Doctor and his scarf. I suspect I am over-thinking it – for my parents it was let me watch it or don’t. There was no watching it first to check it was ok, no dvds, no streaming.

    It was Snakedance that gave me nightmares, pretty sure it’s not done me any long-term harm either.

    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Hello, strangers  🙂

    @mersey I’ve been thinking along the same lines.

    As viewers, of course we’re rooting for our heroes and central or sympathetically portrayed characters. We can’t get too hung up about the deaths of baddies and peripheral individuals, or the show couldn’t work. And writers tend to make it easy for us to “move on” from the deaths we’re not supposed to care about.

    Still, when that dirty, inebriated, certainly poor and likely homeless first victim died at the beginning, I felt it was a lazy choice that played to societal prejudices. (Who can we kill off without tugging at heartstrings?)

    Then it turned out the whole episode dealt rather well with societal prejudices and the value we (should) place on every life. So I’m not sure what to make of it now.

    Similarly, the Doctor’s speech does seem to jar with his subsequent indifference at the thug’s death.

    I wonder whether we’re being played with a little here?



    Anonymous @

    @nick @mirime @mudlark

    thank you for that wealth of information -I appreciate it! I’m always puzzled about accents and dialects and the attitudes which frequently accompany pronunciation. In Wolf Hall, I recall an aristocrat speaking derisively about how a particular and well known gentleman pronounced Norfolk as “Norferk” which, at least in the former’s judgement, was a decidedly inferior pronunciation.

    @blenkinsopthebrave Oh my yes! I understand fully. I attended numerous concerts by St Martin in the Fields where I found their style of Baroque to be mild, unflustered and entirely emotionless -to the point where I was constructing my next day’s shopping list.

    @morpho Yes, I’m enjoying the pacing too. No insane ‘geronimo’ moments continually (not that I’m against those)and yet at one time I thought the Doctor wouldn’t be able to haul Bill off the ice in time.

    @mudlark I believe you’re correct in the interpretation of what the Doctor and Bill stated, You heard “river” and yet the subtitling here, at least, entirely missed that. Also “i’m low key in love with the Tardis’ read as “I’m totally in love with…” -the titling influenced by Bill’s consonants, possibly.

    @missrori Yes, Thane believes it’s also the best of the three episodes. A very politically inspired episode which I felt was particularly appropriate. The knocks are intriguing -as is Nardole’s general behaviour.



    Anonymous @


    Welcome back. Good to see you about! I think that the initial death was predictable because it would be, well…..predictable. It was part of the set up exploited by Lord Sutcliffe. Certainly if you’re suggesting that as an audience we’re being “played” I could agree. The Doctor’s constant reference to human life and its innate value has been witnessed across many seasons -in Series 8 or 9, the episode which introduced Rigsy, had a rather whiney, mean and nasty survivor. I remember Clara inferring that “sometimes the wrong people live.” (whoops).  I also think he attempted to save  the “thug” -the sonic, we know, attracted  the blue hunter fish?

    But yes, I wonder whether the idea of  “I move on” is a lesson to all of us: so many use this phrase and it’s often directed at others. “Moving on” and being expected to “move on” during a particular tough point in anyone’s life often lacks compassion and empathy. I think the Doctor had some trouble himself -with Lady Me, for example !

    Certainly the episode played with our current societal values in some depth. Perhaps @mersey that was the point, specifically, last night where a generalist approach in 44 minutes helped to communicate the social history across strata rather than focussing on one or two people -as was the situation in previous seasons  where the Doctor/Martha/Rose meet one or two people who then drove the resolution and were in some way changed by meeting the Doctor and his companion. This episode was a little different, I agree.

    On Season 5, I’m with you! – it spoke to me for specific personal and social reasons.  The last three weeks have concentrated on the Doctor’s more ‘settled’ personality and the connection between him, the oath and the contents of the Vault together with Bill’s emerging personality and quick thinking. I found her mother, shown only for a few moments, to be instantly memorable as were the vagrant children. We haven’t had a connection with a Rigsy-type character yet … but I feel that’s to come. So much to fit into each episode! I think Moffat’s chosen a deliberate pace – there’s a regulated and unpressured feel to which I’m attracted.





    UK subtitles say “low key”. Not found the “River” bit yet. Time stamp? -ish?

    winston @winston

    @redlemons   Hi!  Maybe the Doctor gave the Master the brooch for the daughter that was born but the Master ,being the Master, kept it for himself. @thane15    Moffat might be telling us through the Doctor to be prepared to “move on” when PC leaves us. Some fans  have a hard time adjusting to a new Doctor and some never seem to move on and spend alot of time and energy dissing the new guy and comparing him to the old guy.

    I don’t think the Master or Missy are in the vault but I have no idea what is.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @morpho    I liked the Doctor’s explanation that the butterfly effect happens anyway, even without time travel.

    *Loved* that; a quick and easy way of dispensing with a long, depressing disquisition on why Time travel into the past is bound to change the future to *some* extent, but you’d probably never know (who says it has to change in ways you’d notice?), so let’s not worry about it!  Delicioius, and so Whovian!

    @mudlark  Agreed, a lively and entertaining episode, full of good lines and taking on the race question head on instead of pussy-footing around it or just tossing off some throwaway line about it, et fin to that.

    Since those diving suits were of a design getting on for a century later than 1814 and had no visible means of air supply, they were presumably provided by the Tardis who seems to have a liking for wrapping advanced technology in a retro design shell.

    I thought those were really quite flattering, for diving suits.

    @mirime  . . . giving Bill the choice like with Clara in “Kill the Moon”.  Also liked the conversation when Bill is upset after the child dies and comparing it with the conversation with Clara at the end of “Mummy on the Orient Express”

    We’re not to be allowed to forget the two dark seasons that got the Doctor to this softer place, it seems.  Good!  Since intense suffering can leave its victims in reality with more negative effects than positive ones (check accounts of this by people whose parents survived the Holocaust, among others), it’s important, I think, to see the Doctor coming out of his own ordeal as a kinder person, a calmer person, because that can happen, too; while his ability to detach from loss and keep going is also crucial to his nature and his function.  Well done!

    @jimthefish  the stories are not what you’d call complex

    Exactly; Moffat promised a return to a more “traditional” format, which was usually monster-of-the-week, not a lot of personal reflection, and that’s what he’s been delivering — a kind of, “Yes, I and my writing team can do that and do it damned well, so here you are then.”  Now we’ll see a lot of carping about stories being “trivial” or “shallow” or whatever else the Spites have in their little rucksacks of poison.  F**k ’em, says I.

    Is the over-arching theme of series going to be ‘our responsibility to the rights and freedoms of others’.

    Damn good thing if it is, IMO.

    @wolfweed  WOW.  Love the image!   I want that person heading the best inter-galactic university in existence.  Beauty and intelligence — gorgeous.  And it’s the not-smiling that makes it work.  Funny thing about that . . . .


    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    The vault. I have always wanted a genuine 4th wall wall moment on Who. Consequently, I propose that in the vault, banging three times in an ominous and demanding way, is the one person who the 13th Doctor knows will bring about his doom. Which explains why he is having as many adventures as he can before Nardole brings in the tea. Because the person behind the door of the vault, demanding to be unleashed, is…Chris Chibnall!

    And I would just like to say that tonight’s bottle of shiraz is really quite excellent…

    janetteB @janetteb

    Watched the episode last night and have just caught up with the posts, though no doubt a few more have been added while I have been reading. It was a delight. A short, light story but with deeper layers of meaning. It was as @blenkinsopthebrave pointed out, very political which earns it my approval. The visuals were lovely. Enjoyed reading @mudlark‘s post on the historical aspects. It looked good to me. The costume detail was far more accurate than that of many recent historical dramas. Hair up tick, amazing bonnet, tick, appropriate day wear for period, tick. I don’t know if Bill’s clothes were right for the exact year, but if the details were a year or so out then that is excused as she found the outfit in the Tardis so near enough…

    Frost Fairs have a magical appeal and this was used to good advantage by the script and visuals.

    As has been observed before by others once again the monster is not the real villain of the story but rather the victim of an evil human. Thus far this seems to be theme for the series, perhaps a reflection of the times we live in/

    As to the vault, everything is pointing to it being Missy/Master in there which would indicate that it isn’t however at times S.M. has gone with the obvious so right now my guess is anything is possible.

    Nardole seems more like the Doctor’s keeper than a companion.

    And lastly this episode got the thumbs up from the boys. They are really enjoying this series thus far.




    Whisht @whisht

    Really enjoyed this episode. Everyone’s said things I was thinking, except maybe these couple of slight things:
    – I loved the episode for setting up the Doctor as alien.
    He has seen a lot of death; he’s killed; there’s a wonderful shot from a very low angle that showed him as very alien.
    He seemed more concerned in recovering his sonic screwdriver than the poor soul who was holding it (whether child or thug). The child was already ‘dead’ as far as he was concerned so he really just wanted the sonic back; the thug’s death was particularly cold and I do think he asked for the sonic back just so it wasn’t lost in the deep.
    – Missy’s brooch (can’t remember where this was mentioned) – I always assumed the brooch was for the daughter and that it was poignant that if Missy had it, it meant something had happened to the daughter…
    – the vault “what’s he told you?” seemed important; this won’t be a monster to fear, but one that deserves our sympathy. Maybe something that has taken 50 years to ‘cook’ (such as a body to be possessed by the next regeneration..?)

    Whisht @whisht

    btw @janettebwonderful spot on the Emma portrait !!

    Good luck on the other one!

    tardigrade @tardigrade

    Not too much to say about the episode proper that hasn’t been said- a relatively simple plot line that I thought worked quite well. As much an introduction to Bill to how the Doctor works as anything.

    Regarding “Black Jesus”, the quote is Bill: “Regency England’s a bit more black than they show in the movies.” Doctor: “So was Jesus. History’s a whitewash.”. So Jesus wasn’t necessarily black, just a “bit more black”, whatever that means. You could interpret that to mean that he wasn’t as “white”, i.e. European, as depicted in Renaissance paintings (and tending to be the image that comes to mind to many from that time on). That would simply a statement of reality- assuming Jesus existed as an historic figure, he was, of course, Jewish and likely of middle-Eastern extraction (or conceivably North African, if he was more than a “bit more black”). To deny that and insist that the Renaissance painters had things exactly right would be very crude “whitewashing”. I’m sure the artists themselves knew they were painting for the expectations of their patrons, not as a realistic depiction of someone of whom they had no meaningful physical description.

    And as suspected, it’s not a “what” in the vault, but a “who”. I’m not reading too much into the knocking- that’s a theme that’s been used previously in different contexts, as noted, and I doubt those will all be drawn together. We know that the Master/Mistress will make an appearance in the series- I doubt that would have been teased if he/she were in the vault, so I suspect some misdirection is at play.

    Anonymous @

    I’m loving Bill. Would like to see her remain. Her innocent view of happenings is refreshing after Clara and Amy. She looks lovely in the period clothing of Thin Ice. Loved watching the Doctor punch the racist also.

    Anonymous @


    apologies. Will get back to you when I see it again -> another day another nurse 😉


    So I see! (=shiraz). In my cellar (shoe cupboard –ahem-) I also have a smoooth NSW shiraz. If it allows for more bonkerising then I shall the pop the cork. (small print: all other brands freely available).

    @whisht This was one where the Doctor spoke of “I don’t have time for outrage.” ?  He was speaking so pragmatically; so cool in tone (frosty, even :-): “Get used to me, this is me, now, I’m rock solid and finally fit in my skin” (around when everything usually  goes to sh**!)  I liked how he seemed perplexed; then sure, then….even more certain. */*


    Nardole seems more like the Doctor’s keeper than a companion

    Oh indeed! I felt that too: a little sinister and  ‘stampy footed’

    @ichabod yes, they looked romantic (and hell to wear: heavy). But the wet suits of today typically scrunch up one’s thighs into an uncomfortable position: I would have no knowledge of this AT ALL, of course :-}


    Mersey @mersey

    @jimthefish @mirime @idiotsavon @thane15

    I think we have here two stylistics mixed, the first is drama with all this conversations and speeches about morality, killing and moving on, and the second is comic-book in which bad guys get what they deserve and an urchin becomes an heir (after what had happened with Ashildr, Doctor should be very cautious with giving corruptive fortune). And I think Doctor just wanted his screwdriver back.

    The question is not who is in the vault but what. I think it’s crack in the wall xD

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @pedant  @thane15 (puro)

    Looking back to what I wrote yesterday, I’m not sure that my explanation was entirely clear. Whether the Doctor said ‘River’ or ‘Bill’ seems to depend on which version you saw.

    In the BBC 1 broadcast on Saturday evening, which I watched while simultaneously recording, it was quite clearly ‘River … Miss Potts … ; the ‘River’ in an unstressed, almost conversational tone, the ‘Miss Potts’ sharper and more urgent.  In the iPlayer version, on the other hand, he says ‘Bill … Miss Potts …, both ‘Bill’ and ‘Miss Potts’ in an equally urgent tone.  The two versions are either showing different takes of the same sequence, or in one of them ‘River’, or ‘Bill’ has been over-dubbed. One suggests absent-minded reversion on the part of the Doctor, the other absent-mindedness on the part of Capaldi, but I suspect that the I-Player version is what was intended.

    Anonymous @


    ah, the thick plottens…


    Yes, that’s a good read!

    On the other matter I think the Doctor attempted to save the Thug with the Dragon Tattoo. 🙂

    If I recall, he explained the “off” switch; then “it has a knack to it” is the Doctor expressing little interest in saving those who profit from the exploitation of vulnerable citizens.

    g’night all, Puro

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    The two versions are either showing different takes of the same sequence, or in one of them  – more probably the iPlayer version – ‘River’ (or ‘Bill’) has been over-dubbed.

    I took a look at the scene and Peter Capaldi is facing camera and watching his lips, he definitely says “Bill”- that’s in the iView version (ABC catchup service), so I’d assume that’s the same as in iPlayer. So it hasn’t be overdubbed to “Bill”. So I think it’s more likely it was a different take and the different versions are as a result of a late edit to fix an error. Though I’d have thought Pearl would have picked up an error with her character being misaddressed at the time and broken character. Maybe an Easter egg for fans watching live?

    Mersey @mersey

    I want to emphisize that recism is not only about skin colour but also about ethnicity. Skin color only let racists to identify people of different ethnicity. People who suffered the most during WWII were white jews, the worst of all races and slavs, the lowest of aryan race, inferiors fit only to be slaves. I was really disturbed when I read the news that after Brexit vote some Poles received cards with such notice as ‘No more polish vermin’ or ‘Go home polish scum’ and the number of racial and xenophobic attacks has risen.  Moffat didn’t bring up this issue and I think it’s a very urgent problem these days.

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    If I recall, he explained the “off” switch; then “it has a knack to it” is the Doctor expressing little interest in saving those who profit from the exploitation of vulnerable citizens.

    Unfortunately, earlier on he appeared as interested in saving his screwdriver as he was the innocent Spider. He certainly “moved on” very quickly and was checking his screwdriver was OK at a time when you’d have hoped he was running through any possible way to save the boy. That was played a little too cold for my liking. I’ll admit myself that it felt like 1 out of 2 saved – I guess I feel some attachment to it also – but in the real-world calculus, saving it would be inconsequential compared to a child’s life.

    Mudlark @mudlark


    Yes, the design of the diving suits is quite elegant – for a diving suit of that type – but, as I said,  it is a bit advanced for the period – much closer to the kind that was developed towards the end of the 19th century.*


    I don’t know if Bill’s clothes were right for the exact year, but if the details were a year or so out then that is excused as she found the outfit in the Tardis so near enough…

    The pelisse (coat) and hat looked to me to be pretty much spot on for 1814. It is difficult to be sure about the dress, because we didn’t see it without the pelisse, but the impression I got is that it was closer to the loose, flowing ‘Classical Greek’ style introduced after the French Revolution and fashionable at the beginning of the 19th century – think the portrait of Madame Recamier by David.  By 1814 in England women’s gowns were more structured, and underpinned by corsetry. So Bill’s dress would not have been in the current mode, but wouldn’t have looked totally out of place.

    @thane15 (puro)

    Regional accents in Britain, their origins and social significance is a fascinating subject, and one on which I am happy to enlarge , to the extent of my limited knowledge, but I think it is a topic better suited to the pub, so I’ll take it there.


    * In Winchester Cathedral there is a small bronze statue of a diver in a very similar type of suit, on a plinth with an inscription commemorating the diver who worked on underpinning the foundations of the Cathedral during the first decade or so of the 20th century.  The water table on the site is quite high – as those of us who worked on the excavation of the site of the Saxon Minster which predated the Norman cathedral were only too aware – and the Normans built the foundations of their new cathedral on a raft of huge oak timbers which, by the end of the 19th century, had decayed to a point where there was serious subsidence and a risk that the building might collapse.




    Mudlark @mudlark


    You are right. If, in the version you saw, you could clearly lip-read ‘Bill’, then they are certainly different takes.  I have just checked (by fast-forwarding through the UK broadcast version which I recorded), and in that Capaldi is three quarter turned to camera, and one can equally clearly lip read ‘River …’ – two syllables.  Pearl might not have noticed because, as I wrote, it was said in unstressed tone.


    @mudlark @thane15

    Found it. Just checked my off-air recording and he clearly says “Bill” as do the subtitles. Sound. vision and subtitles in perfect harmony.

    In the wake of the Columbia disaster, some play was initially made of one of the astronauts saying “Feeling that heat” and, having been told that, you can clearly hear it. It is all but impossible not to hear that.

    But if you hear that section of the recording in isolation, without a cue, then what is equally clearly said is: “Uh, Houston, bu…”

    I don’t think it remotely likely that the iPlayer version differs from the broadcast version.

    Craig @craig

    @mudlark @janetteb The costumes are discussed in quite a lot of detail in the aftershow that I posted on page 1 of this thread. Costume Designer Hayley Nebauer describes the research and attention to detail that was involved. But for Bill’s costume she says they felt less bound to historical accuracy as in the story Bill picks it herself from the TARDIS wardrobe.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @craig and @mudlark over on the Frock Flicks site they have discussed the historical accuracy of costumes in Dr Who in several blog posts which are fun and informative. They did not cover last series but there probably weren’t enough stories set in the past to justify it. I have yet to listen to the aftershow. Maybe tomorrow morning. (mental note made)

    I suspect the dress was a rental costume but need to try and get a better look at it.






    Mudlark @mudlark

    @pedant @thane15

    Strange, because I assure you that I am not delusional and nor is my hearing impaired.  On Sunday morning I did begin to wonder whether I was mistaken, and since I happened to be at my desk I watched again on iPlayer via my computer and on that, yes, he unmistakeably says ‘Bill … Miss Potts’, which led me at once to go back and re-check the recording I made of the broadcast as I watched it on air on Saturday, not once but twice, and it confirmed that I hadn’t misheard. In my recording he equally clearly says ‘River … Miss Potts’,  Even the tone of voice in ‘River’ is different from his ‘Bill’ on iPlayer. Following @tardigrades suggestion I went back again to my recording so that I could watch Capaldi closely and, although I am not an expert lip-reader, even his lip movements were consistent with the two syllables of River and couldn’t be read as ‘Bill’.

    I can only assume that what was broadcast in my region of England was a version containing an overlooked slip in editing and not the ‘official’ edition seen elsewhere.  For the record, I have just been back and watched it yet again with subtitles on, and the subtitles do read ‘Bill … Miss Potts’, so there is no doubt about what was intended.

    Craig @craig

    @mudlark I watched it on TV but missed that. Do you have any way of recording a sound file? Maybe plug it in to your computer’s microphone jack and use Audacity to capture it? Or even just video it on your phone from the TV, it doesn’t need to be high quality. Then you can email it to me (address on home page) and I’ll post it.


    @mudlark  – pretty sure am in same region as you (BBC East).

    Whisht @whisht

    @pedant @mudlark – this ‘mystery’ of the missing River intrigues me!

    Especially as it does seem odd to broadcast and have iPlayer of different versions.

    Can anyone provide a timestamp? I recorded it also, so curious if I can hear it as well or not.




    About 33 mins, after the baddie can’t turn of the sonic and gets eaten.

    Mudlark @mudlark


    I wish that I could follow your suggestion, but I can’t think of a means of doing so, unless someone more technically competent can suggest a way.  My only computer is a fairly massive all-in-one desk-top almost as big and heavy as my flat screen TV set, and is in my study on the opposite side of my flat to the living room containing the TV and TiVo box.  In any case, I don’t think I have the necessary leads since so far I have never had a use for the microphone function of the computer.  I don’t have a smart phone, either, so can’t video it (which I know makes me a technological dinosaur, but so far I have never felt that access to the myriad apps on a smart phone would do very much to enhance my quality of life or my ability to communicate with family and friends, and my ancient Nokia dumb-phone suffices for the few occasions when I really need a mobile).

    So I’m sorry, but unless there is anyone out there who can corroborate what I saw and heard, people will for the time being have to take my word for it or else conclude that I have lost my marbles.


    Yes I’m in BBC East region. I watched and recorded the episode in real time via cable (Virgin Media), but would that make any difference?


    Mirime @mirime

    Iirc, there is no way different regions could show a different version. How curious though.

    I’ve checked my recording, definitely Bill.



    Can’t think why it should – I would have thought Virgin will just pipe the BBC output.

    Marbles are overrated anyway 😉

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    OMG! They killed Spider! For some reason I have a hankering for People Pie…

    thin ice transcript

    Just had a rewatch and the thing that stood out is that the Doctor is rescuing prisoners/slaves whilst back home he seems to have one of his own. Maybe he’s being made to feel better about his predicament. It can’t be very nice being a jailer. Even if it’s pragmatically the right thing to do.

    The Doctor has obviously been going stir crazy being stuck in one place – and is reliably unreliable – He does what he wants.

    Googling Peregrine or Perry Sutcliffe won’t locate a real person from the era, but Perry means ‘pear cider’.

    Hmmm – I suddenly have a hankering for ‘pear cider’…..

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    On beating people up…

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