Wild Blue Yonder

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@scaryb – lovely to see you and @whisht back in the DJ box!

I’d missed the detail that it was the TARDIS that clocked Clone-Donna’s long arm at the last – clever old thing.  And yes, definitely a play on AI and its current weirdnesses with the human body. AI is terrifying frankly, so a very modern form of body horror.

I had forgotten ARSE – I’m sure RTD2 would be tickled by the concept of ARSE, and recognise it deeply.

@phaseshift – another old comrade clocking on <waves> Of course I remember Image of the Fendahl, because a) it was a Leela story and I was a big Leela fan, and b) it scared the living crap out of me. Something about the engulfment by the gestalt, and the monstrous maggoty component entities…  I was a regular reader of Terrance Dicks’ Target Doctor Who novelisations back in the day; still have collection and that’s one of them.

Yes and Fendahleen hated salt, of course.

Salt has a long religious and folkloric history, in many cultures, as a purifier and repeller of evil (probably because it was so central to the early technology of being able to cure meat).  If you’re a Supernatural fan you’ll know that salt circles are used to repel demons in that piece of modern horror Americana.  So the sacred nature of salt has travelled a long way, in human history, over several thousand years.

Drawing a line in salt at the edge of the universe, and then watching your doppleganger break through it, has got to be a psychological head-frack for the Doctor. It’s his(hers) modus operandi really, as a maverick rule-breaker, crossing lines. But The Doctor is also fundamentally an agent of kindness, rather than an agent of chaos. And yet, genocidal forces (The Time War, The Flux) have converged around him. He is haunted by himself as a result, and Wild Blue Yonder physically manifests that haunting.

@bobbyfatv2 and @jimthefish Yes, thinking about body dysmorphia and transitioning IS an interesting through-line in this episode from The Star Beast  and “Binary, Binary, Non-Binary” (Rose as the trans/ non-binary child of the Doctor/Donna metacrisis) and this emerges out of the first regeneration sequences we’ve seen in which The Doctor transitions gender; from male-presenting Capaldi to female-presenting Whittaker to male-presenting Tennant 2. Of course, that’s not the first gender-transitioning seqence for The Doctor, given the female-presenting Fugitive Doctor, and who knows how many incarnations, and of what genders, prior to her.

The Doctor has often exhibited some body dysmorphia post-regeneration, in the strangeness of  getting used to new face, new hair, new teeth etc. But, one would imagine, gender dysphoria isn’t a thing in Time Lord society, as gender transitioning (every now and then) is a natural part of Time Lord regenerative biology. Or, for those Time Lords who prefer one kind of gender presentation to another consistently (and why should there only be two?) that’s in their control? The Doctor never has much control over who he ends up as next, but Romana 1 was able to try on several possible bodies before selecting her form as Romana 2, in a very accomplished fashion.

RTD2 is, with relative subtlety, asking us to retro-imagine Time Lord society in light of the new canonicity of Time Lord gender fluidity. Stuffy patricians in the regalia of Rassilon by day, Rocky Horror Timewarp dancers by night? But that’s hidebound by our own gender “norms” and gender “transgressions”. My favourite Ursula Le Guin novel, The Left Hand of Darkness, probably captures it better; a society of gender-fluid people.  I’ll look forward to future Who where we see that version of Gallifrey.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Clearly, Isaac Newton needs to be played by an asexual, neurodivergent actor.

A Regency AU where the British rescue and then fete Toussaint L’ouverture would be worth watching. It would have to be a very alternative AU though.

A white MLK? Do I/you/anyone really want to go there? Bobby Kennedy doesn’t count I suppose. Otherwise, the BBC knew how to stage a show like that until 1978…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@jimthefish When you catch up with the final episode of the Hartnell era “Celestial Toymaker” be prepared for the fact that the first 15 minutes or so are pretty feeble, but it is the last 10 minutes that makes one think about what might potentially happen on Saturday, when the Toymaker returns.

And @phaseshift, I suspect RTD2 may continue to refer to him as the Celestial Toymaker, in keeping with the dictionary definition of being from the heavens or the stars.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u/

What about a black JFK?

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0281686/plotsummary/?ref_=tt_ov_pl

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Well, if these last couple of forums have proved anything is that one of Chibs’ major failings was the ability to inspire any kind of significant speculation. Have to say I’ve missed this level of bonkerising.

@phaseshift

Interesting convergences you mention there. If entities in this story were proto-Eternals and the Toymaker is definitely one then could this be a foreshadowing of (maybe) what’s to come in 15’s era? Also as an aside, are you suggesting that there’s a link between the Fendahl and the Great Vampires — maybe relates species or sub-species? Cos I like that idea a lot. (And a shout out to Image of the Fendahl in general — it’s actually one of my favourite Baker stories and would say it’s one of my favourite novelisations.)

@scaryb

Ooh, I’m also liking the ‘deep fake’ concept as well as the body dysmorphia one. I think I’ve seriously under-estimated this episode after all this bonkerising.

@juniperfish — Yes, a re-imagined Time Lord society, post the canonicity of the Fugitive Doc/13 would definitely be interesting and I’d very much like to see that. And definitely concur with Left Hand of Darkness being a possibly template for a future Gallifrey (also one of my favourite Le Guins).

@blenkinsopthebrave – am looking forward to checking out the Celestial Toymaker. On something of a Hartnell kick at the moment due to iPlayer anyway (I’m now firmly of the belief that Galaxy Four is something of a neglected classic.)

And talking of shout-outs, you can only be talking about Bubba-Ho-Tep, @whohar — a great, great movie that everyone should watch, if only for the career-best performance from Bruce Campbell and it’s endlessly quotable lines. (And if you can get the DVD edition, it’s worth doing so for the in-character commentary Campbell provides.)

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

In fact, here’s the trailer….

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I think if it’s a good story, the casting will quickly become a non-issue and, if the story is poor, the casting then becomes a stick to beat the writer / showrunner etc.

That was one of the problems with Chibnall’s run. He had a huge opportunity to use the Doctor’s gender change and tell some different stories / from different perspectives, but it didn’t happen. What a waste.

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@JimTheFish</p>
Yes!

Not your standard Hollywood fare…

I’ll search out the DVD version for the extras. Thanks

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

I think as far as Harold MacMillan was concerned JHK might as well have been.

I think Chibnall was under strict instruction to not go there. They’ve got their bloody female. Now just fill the Tardis with idiots so no-one asks awkward questions. We all love ‘Villa’ but it IS the story where Byron makes a pass at the Doctor… a bit sad really.

and now the eye-candy’s back!

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I would hope that’s not true, and would be a bit shocked if it were. Hopefully next time they will get it right. It would be nice to see Louisa Harland (Orla from Derry Girls) in the TARDIS…

But I’m getting off-topic. Any further Chibnall rambling by me will go under @jimthefish Chibnall retrospective blog.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

and now the eye-candy’s back!

Why thank you 🙂

[Robert Caligari @robertcaligari]

It’s kind of a shame Michael Gough wasn’t around to reprise the Toymaker, although by now he would’ve been…what, 105 years old? Phew.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

’JHK??’ I meant JFK but you knew that.

I suppose when Jack met Harold it was an international changing of the guard… in particular I’m referring to Jack’s infamous reveal of his favourite preventative migraine cure. Maybe he was trying to wind up Harold not realising the son of empire was already mentally scarred by Robert Boothby.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@juniperfish

Your suggestion of LeGuin’s Gethenians as a lens through which to view the Time Lords of Gallifrey is interesting and illuminating but, though the term gender fluid may apply to the people of Gallifrey, unless I have misunderstood the term I’m not sure that it describes the people of Gethen.

As currently established, Time Lords have the latent ability to present as male or female – or possibly even intersex, but they can only switch from one to the other when they regenerate. Between regenerations they are stuck in the same form for the duration.

Gethenians differ in that, if they are normal, they are simultaneously male and female all the time, true hermaphrodites, and every individual can be fully functional as either. During the few days of the month when they are in kemmer they develop the sexual characteristics of one or the other. For the rest of the month they are a unitary male/female and functionally asexual unless, of course, they are pregnant.

To reimagine the Gallifreyans on such lines would be an amazing step, though to say the least it would be difficult to retcon the canon to that extent after 60 plus years. The outrage it would cause in the ARSE brigade and beyond would be delightful to witness 😈 , while for those who like at least a hint of romance or sexual tension between Doctor and human companion it might be a bit of a damper.

As you may know, Ursula LeGuin said later that she regretted using the male pronoun for the Gethenians. On the  other hand it fits the situation in the novel because the first person narrator in the novel is a human male from Earth and a major point is the fact that, because of his cultural conditioning and biological assumptions, and because of the Gethenians’  indeterminate appearance, he finds it difficult for a long time to perceive them as other than male.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@mudlark

The outrage it would cause in the ARSE brigade and beyond would be delightful to witness

It really would 🙂

Yes, you’re right that Gethenian and Time Lord physiology are clearly somewhat different, but I suppose I think of Gethenians as “gender fluid” in their own way too because, as you say, at the time of kemmer, they either foreground female or foreground male for the purposes of reproduction, and any Gethenian can foreground one or the other, which is why the same individual can be both a mother and father over their life-course.

That is similar to Time Lords, although, as you say, they present female or male (or possibly sometimes intersex/ non-binary) in a fixed way, per regeneration.

In the extended Whoniverse (outside the TV show) there seems to be both the asexual reproduction Looms scenario, but also the suggestion Gallifreyan children were, at least at some point, born via pregnancy:

https://screenrant.com/doctor-who-origins-gallifrey-time-lord-children/ 

So, The Doctor could, in the Fugitive Doctor incarnation or another earlier one, have given birth to children.  I bet some showrunner, at some point, will go there.

A whole other interesting concept we haven’t really discussed yet is the fact that, by human standards, Time Lords are also “race fluid” (bearing in mind the human concept of “race” is itself a cultural construct). We’ve now seen the Doctor with black skin (Fugitive Doctor) and the Master with brown skin (Dhawan Master) as well as a lot of white (really, more accurately, pink) Docs. And of course, Gatwa-Doc will be Black. However, we don’t know if different skin tones have different cultural histories, in Gallifreyan society, or not.

Was Gallifrey ever inflected by histories of racism, as Earth has been? Or, for Time Lords, is skin colour just (for those, like Romana, with control over the process) something they take a fancy to at regeneration (I fancy darker skin this time, or lighter skin this time) or a totally insignificant detail they don’t bother thinking about at all?

 

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@juniperfish

A whole other interesting concept we haven’t really discussed yet is the fact that, by human standards, Time Lords are also “race fluid”

That is an interesting point and has loads of implications — primarily to my mind whether there’s an aspect of regeneration that uses a kind of social camouflage or ‘imprinting’, as I think has been implied in the show of late — as in Capaldi Doc was Scottish because of the influence of Amy, WhitDoc was female because of the influence of Bill (and perhaps Missy) and possibly Gatwa-Doc is black because of the influence of Rose 2 (and perhaps Bill). That might explain why the Doc was obstinately white and male for so long as they were ostensibly the social models surrounding them at the point of regeneration.

My own headcanon, as I think I’ve said before, is that the Time Lords are like body-snatchers and the templates for the various faces and bodies come from an archive of choices that they’ve maybe time-scooped from throughout time and space. One’s just ‘downloaded’ from somewhere (the Matrix) when you need one.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@jimthefish

I love both of those ideas – “the imprinting” in particular.

Body-snatcher wise, you might wonder why the Time Lords only pick humanoids to copy, with the whole of time and space and alien forms to choose from. But I guess regeneration is plastic only within core Shobogan DNA variations.

The revivification of the Timeless Child is making me think again about how this narrative founds Time Lord origins in colonialism and eugenics.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@juniperfish  @jimthefish

I guess regeneration is plastic only within core Shobogan DNA variations.

That’s exactly on point, I think. If Time Lords were capable of taking on on the appearance of any and every  life form they encountered they would be only a few steps removed from zygons, whose ability to morph has a very different biological basis.

Where the Time Lords are concerned, the idea of imprinting is both appealing and very plausible. The ordinary people of Gallifrey, the baseline Shobogans,on the very few occasions they have been depicted, have as far as I can recall been shown as uniformly white*, and for the Time Lords this is presumably also the baseline,  but the latter  have, over the millennia, encountered multitudes of humanoid aliens of all  types and skin shades who might have influenced the range of physical appearances they could adopt.

In such circumstances it seems highly unlikely that what we tend to perceive as ‘racial’ differences would be a cause of discrimination among them. Someone whose friend has regenerated is unlikely to significantly change their behaviour toward that friend simply because their skin colour and/or facial characteristics have altered radically. In any case, all the indications are that Time Lord prejudices are mostly to do with class and their assumption of superiority.

* But if I failed to notice on first viewing that Nathaniel Curtis’s skin tone and facial features differed slightly from the North European norm, maybe my powers of observation are not particularly reliable 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Interesting chat above. I like the imprinting idea.  I don’t think Timelords are specifically “race” particular – I suspect that skin colour is similar to hair colour eg “not ginger” in that it’s just an aesthetic choice. As is gender. (Awareness of race as in Shobogan or Time Lord may be a different matter!)

Meanwhile – back to the specials.

Argh! I’m just getting used to weekly Who episodes again and it’s all about to change again.

Loving having DT back as a slightly different, huggier but darker #14, and really looking forward to Gatwa Doc, but does it REALLY have to be so soon??!

I’ve seen a few predictions that Donna is going to die, which has obvs been foreshadowed in both The Star Beast and Wild Blue Yonder, but I think that’s a tease. I’ll be very shocked if they go there. My feeling is that #14 will sacrifice himself to save her (and break our hearts!) possibly involving the use of a screen (which has featured in both episodes so far, and memorably in 10’s regeneration to save Wilf).

I’m expecting full on bonkers (but trying to avoid spoilers 😉  )

I don’t think the Toymaker’s behind the events in the recent episodes, but maybe there’s a bit of a reset coming.

What y’all think?

A special personal thing happened for me this week – my family has always just tolerated my Whovian tendencies (my SO still can’t get over the fact that Daleks got over the stairs thing decades ago!). Sprog on the other hand was excited about Whit-Doc but didn’t really get involved. This week she decided to watch both the 60th shows with me  and admitted they were “pretty good” esp Wild Blue Yonder. We’ve got a date tomorrow at 6.3o to watch The Giggle. Never give up!!  😀

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@mudlark

* But if I failed to notice on first viewing that Nathaniel Curtis’s skin tone and facial features differed slightly from the North European norm, maybe my powers of observation are not particularly reliable

Ha! Me too 😉

But I think you’re spot on with the class thing (which @jimthefish pointed out in a blog post many moons ago, and is probably as much to do with the times in which they were created as anything)

OTOH certain sections of the interwebs are going ballistic about it 😛

[Whisht @whisht]

Wow.

Just wow.

Not the episode. I enjoyed it, was happy to see Tennant and Tate again and sparring off each other.

But wow – it’s great to hear/see so many people being… erudite and bonkers and engaged again.
And that includes (newer) people saying “who the hell are you and do you mean me?”
:¬)

@juniperfish – there’s an entire comment of yours on this thread I should link to as I want to hug it. Like many of your comments but that one especially (but now I can’t find it and fear losing this comment going back to find it).

But I’ve done the *bad thing* in namechecking one person and then not being able to namecheck the other ones (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE).
I really really really enjoy being back here.

:¬)

@jimthefish – I agree on the bonkerising – I’m loving it!
I have none of my own, I simply love that they’re about to bite off, chew and spit out the *ToyMaker* after doing the Disney deal.
A deal which is surely as much about the figurines and plushies as any desire to fund a beloved show.
Bite! Chew!
:¬D

But now I’ve namechecked someone else and not mentioned everyone else!
(bad whisht, bad whisht…)

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

I have finally just watched WBY…

Why were people going on about Isaac Newton? Really? Why???

And all this stuff about the influence of Midnight… what about The Waters of Mars??

Loved it. Not sure about the Timeless Children thing, because that was about the stage in the Chibnall cycle when my brains started leaking from my ears.

But yes Timelords… species fluid ☑️ or wherefor River Song??

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whisht

GOOD Whisht!!! Yes, yes and YES! Exactly that! 😉

@ps1l0v3y0u

the stage in the Chibnall cycle when my brains started leaking from my ears.

😀 😀 😀

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@whohar

Yes to a bit of Blackadder! That’s exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about. Having the Doctor mock him in that way would definitely work.

(Talking of Blackadder, I watched the millennium special ‘Back and Forth’ a while ago for the first time in a decade. I actually found it a lot funnier than when broadcast for some reason. The reason I mention it is that there are a couple of cute Doctor Who references. For Vincent and the Doctor, Richard Curtis described himself as a ‘time travel virgin’ so I wondered if they came from Ben Elton or whether Moffat had contributed a few jokes. It was filmed shortly after Curtis got Moffat to do ‘Curse of Fatal Death’ for Comic Relief).

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@blenkinsopthebrave

And @phaseshift, I suspect RTD2 may continue to refer to him as the Celestial Toymaker, in keeping with the dictionary definition of being from the heavens or the stars.

It would be nice to think he had the choice. I don’t want you to think that I buy the criticism is any way, but it has been fashionable for the past decade to hold the story up as evidence of how racist Doctor Who was.

You see, for me Celestial means heavens as well. With a side order of ‘Celestial Beings’ as mentioned in the bible. In the wider Christian Mythos (as it where) these were Archangels (including the fallen ones like the Morningstar). Then, as you get older and learn about Empire and the opium Wars you learn about ‘The Celestial Empire’, which is basically a European translation of what the Q’ing dynasty called itself.

It’s used a lot in Victorian Literature, including Sherlock Holmes BUT it’s a general discriptor of the people of the Empire. Using ‘Celestials’ as we’d use ‘Britons’. The fascination with Chinese magic and philosophy means that theatrical magicians go through a phase of adopting oriental mannerisms and billing themselves as ‘The Celestial…’.Much like Talons of Weng Chiang. It buys into the concept of both the mystery of the orient and ‘being of power’. To me, that’s what the intent behind the Toymaker is.

Then the internet is born, which is a huge mistake. 😉 It allows Americans to tell us we’re all racists because their forefathers used the term Celestial as a slur. It reached a peak when Deadwood became ‘the must watch TV show’ of its time. Unfortunately the internet is dominated by US voices and trying to explain the actual context is like pissing in the wind.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@jimthefish

are you suggesting that there’s a link between the Fendahl and the Great Vampires — maybe relates species or sub-species? Cos I like that idea a lot.

Yes, although I blame Steven Moffat who had Missy musing that maybe all lifeforms may hit a technological point that they think “let’s give cybermen a go! What could go wrong!!”.

Maybe vampirism is a bit like that – all systems will eventually go down an ‘evolutionary dead end’ as the Fendahl is termed. Something that just consumes life force on an immense scale. Thinking of the heamovores from the McCoy period, they are a far future variant of the same principal.

I do think it might be an approach for the 15th Doctor. That pantheon from the more fantasy side of Doctor Who hasn’t been overused and may present something a bit fresh, but with links to the past. Perhaps that’s the function of this episode? Its unusual to talk about the ‘edge’ of the Universe in a sense these days. But if the Flux took a huge bite out of the Universe it may have new edges to the Toyroom, The Howling and all those other dark places.

@juniperfish

That’s spooky with regard to the use of salt, having just been responding to @blenkinsopthebrave about the ‘celestial’ questions. The Celestial Beings included both Archangels and the Fallen ones, so if RTD wanted to emphasise the ‘demonic’ nature of the Toymaker that would work!

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@whisht

… there’s an entire comment of yours on this thread I should link to as I want to hug it.

Awww shucks 🙂  I’ve been enjoying having you and @scaryb back in the DJing box, and actually some of the lyrics to that Tom Waits song you posted, Who Are You, combined with @phaseshift ‘s musing on the “Celestial” element of the Celestial Toymaker got me thinking:

“Are you still jumping out of windows in expensive clothes?
Well I fell in love
With your sailor’s mouth and your wounded eyes.
You better get down on the floor
Don’t you know this is war”

I just watched Tom Baker in The Deadly Assassin and the Time Lords have a CIA (which I’d completely forgotten about) – Celestial Intervention Agency –  it’s called in that episode; a “secret service” specifically charged with meddling in time. I presume, in present canon,that’s equivalent to The Division.

I also just watched the only Hartnell episode of The Celestial Toymaker, as recommended by @blenkinsopthebrave and Hartnell’s Doctor refers to the Toymaker as “immortal”.

So – some wild spec just before we all settle down for The Giggle. What if The Toymaker is a member of the Doctor’s original species. The Doctor, according to post The Timeless Children canon, is essentially immortal themselves? With an indefinite number of regenerations. Perhaps The Celestial Toymaker is back to do battle with a member of his(her) own species…

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@juniperfish

Perhaps The Celestial Toymaker is back to do battle with a member of his(her) own species…

Ooh, like it 🙂

[WhoHar @whohar]

@scaryb et al

I think there are 3 options for RTD2’s / 15’s Big Bad:

1. Something new.

2. Something from a non-TV version of DW (similar to the Meep)

3. Something from the classic series.

I don’t think it will be 1 (just a gut feeling), 2 has just been done, so that leaves 3. My guess is it will have to be a big villain that’s not been used in NuWho so far. I’m going for Omega.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@whohar yes, regarding the ‘I’ve seen her walking’ rant – my partner really liked that they put that in.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

If that was Newton (well it either had to be him, or George Washington, and he didn’t seem to be carying an axe). But this guy seems altogether too cheerful and normal for Newton, who was a bit of a weirdo. And as Chrissie at Chakoteya.net noted, Newton did NOT invent the word ‘gravity’, he simply added a new explanation for it. I should be all grumpy about this, but I’m in tolerant mood. (Later addendum: Having just read that ‘Newton’ was of mixed ancestry – I didn’t notice, so to me that’s a ‘so what?’. If he had been obviously ‘black’ I would say that was simply wrong, just as a woman would have been wrong, or an Arab. First, because Newton just wasn’t any of those things, and second, because in those days it is doubtful if any black person would have been sufficiently accepted in society to achieve what Newton did. Unless this was an alternate Universe. Don’t change history without good reason.)

The walkway in the alien ship is very, very impressive. Excellent CGI. 🙂 Given Donna’s ability to wreck the Tardis with a cup of coffee, there’s no way I’d let her drive that golf cart.

Interesting that the aliens use a decimal-based counting system, which makes no sense at all except in the historical context of humans having five digits on each hand. 12, or 16, would be far better number bases to use.

I do like the empty ship. Though its spookiness is very much a throwback to ‘Listen’.

This is back to the old trope of running through corridors – but it’s extremely well done and very effective. (I wonder if RTD decided to do this deliberately? ‘Running through corridors – I’ll give ’em running through corridors!’). Then the situation of two Doctors and two Donnas and how do they tell the genuine ones – always makes for an interesting impasse.

I was slightly chagrined that RTD referred to the Flux, I was hoping that most of Chibz’ assorted pollution of the Who backstory might be lost in the mists of time.

For a two-person episode in which only two things happened (and one of those, with Newton, was just a throwaway teaser), the writing/directing managed to sustain the interest quite well. The idea of the countdown so slow that it couldn’t be understood by the aliens is genuinely original. It made for absorbing watching (even if there was an awful lot of talk) but, unusually, probably not one I’ll watch again because once you know what the punchline is, much of the intrigue is lost.

Still, what remains in my memory a day later is the awesomeness of that ship. Quite the most beautiful corridor I’ve ever seen, and the ‘machinery’ in it was convincing and beautifully engineered. Maybe I will watch it again just to appreciate the classiness of the CGI.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. I think it is worth a re watch but then I have always been a fan of Donna and that helps. It was lovely to see her and Tennant Doc again even if the circumstances were contrived.  I kind of saw these specials as not really cannon and so settled back and enjoyed them for what they were. The spaceship design was a notch up for Dr Who.

I don’t think RTD will immediately disavow the Flux but I think he will let the worst of it fade away and maybe retain the best elements. (Hard for me to say though I have avoided watching those episodes. I gave up at the end of the second WhitDoc series when Gallifrey was destroyed yet again for no good reason other than lets break things.)

cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Well yes, I’ll definitely watch it again. Just, knowing the answer to the puzzle does remove some of the suspense – in a way that most Who episodes aren’t quite so susceptible to. It’s a bit like watching Battlestar Galactica when you know which ones are Cylons 🙂
But still very, very watchable.

I had hoped that Rose(2) would be in this episode. She’s too good a character to just fade out of sight. Besides, she’s called Rose – she’s got to come back 🙂

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

What was the point of the Newton sketch? I thought that was the sort of thing Chibs did.

Donna just reminded me why I disliked her for a long time. Pours coffee in the Tardis console and now she’s blaming the Doctor for it. I would not hire such a liability. But fortunately (for me), my dislike has subsided to occasional minor irritation.

I’ll say right now, the blue ship – and especially its long corridor – was awesome (and that’s not a word I use lightly). Visually beautiful and nicely detailed. Notice the little indicator lights blinking in the cylinders as 14 and Donna drive past. Such a contrast to the rusty old robot. And it’s delightfully puzzling and mysterious as to what is going on.

(Who says the aliens would have used decimal counting? Eight or 16 (i.e. multiples of binary) are far more likely bases, or 12 (which is far better for arithmetic since it has factors of 2,3,4 and 6. We only use base-10 because of the pure chance that we happen to have four fingers + thumb).

But still, nice bridge and pilot’s console. The way the camera keeps moving slowly while looking at 14 and Donna gives a suggestion of [something] watching them – suitably spooky.

So when fake-14 and fake-Donna appear, it’s almost an anticlimax. But very well realised. It was a nice touch that they had to learn how reality works in this universe – for example, that his tie kept on existing after he took it off. I must admit to getting confused as to who was who – I cheated and read the transcript at intervals.

And though I said last time that much of the intrigue was lost once you know the punchline – I found the plot is still interesting, and the CGI is still absolutely breathtaking.

 

[nerys @nerys]

The Newton intro was fun … and I guess it got us to the point where, thanks to time travel, mavity replaced gravity (except that there was that odd slip-up the Doctor did on the ship, saying gravity first, then correcting himself with mavity).

Anyway, this was the first seriously thrilling Doctor Who episode for me in a while. I enjoyed the fact that it was the Doctor and Donna … and the Doctor and Donna redux. Very scaled down. The tension was in each trying to figure out who the real ones were in time for the Tardis to come back and collect them. I thought Tennant and Tate were utterly convincing in their roles.

I always liked Donna for her humanity and her humanness. I thought that was why the Doctor was drawn to her. Donna was very much something that he is not, and he needed that.

It’s interesting to me that RTD decided to incorporate the Flux. He could’ve disregarded Chibnall’s change to the Doctor’s timeline, but instead decided to keep it. As long as it doesn’t become too overarching a device, I’m OK with it.

On to the third DVD!

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys    Wild Blue Yonder was the peak of the Tennant revival for me.   The episodes before and after were a bit too Disney for my liking.   But WBY I would add into my list of top episodes from any season.

I have been known to rant that CGI and special effects are no substitute for good characters or plot, but I have to admit the CGI in WBY was so good, it substantially contributes to my liking of the ep.

I wish RTD had left the Flux out of it though.   I was doing my best to forget it.

But I won’t repeat (again) all my comments that I made in the posts above.   I’m pleased you liked it.

 

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent  @nerys     This one was a great episode. That long ship corridor and the ever growing fake Doc and Donna almost made me queasy, like a fever dream. The closer they got the larger they grew! They gave me the willies.

It had a good puzzle , a visit with Newton and a little robot.This felt very Who to me and I enjoyed it all. The flux might have been mentioned but I must just fade out each time it is talked about.

Having the Doctor and Donna together again was like slipping into your fuzziest socks, comfortable and cozy.

I liked all the specials but I guess I wanted one with all the bells and whistles for the 60th anniversary. Maybe some past Doctors or something? Not sure. These felt more like a wonderful wrap up of the 10th and Donna’s story. I was spoiled by the 50th special which was so good.

stay sane

[janetteB @janetteb]

@winston. I agree that the 50th set a standard that will probably never be matched. It was just perfection. Still these specials were fun and it was lovely to see Donna again and for her memory to be restored. She deserved that.

Reading these threads reminds me of how much I need to re watch these episodes. I have not yet had the chance to re watch any of the more recent episodes and right now I do feel very much in need of some Dr Who. It is an essential antidote to reality.

cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston    So  The Star Beast / Wild Blue Yonder / The Giggle  were supposed to be the 60th anniversary special.   Didn’t feel much like a special to me, even though I rate WBY highly as an episode.

The finale double-ep of the following season,  The Legend of Ruby Sunday / Empire of Death, had more of that ‘special’ feel to them, mostly in bringing back old characters, but for me, more – things – does not always have more impact.   The whole thing fell a little bit flat.   Too many people with not much for each one to do.

@janetteb   I so agree with you about the 50th,  Day of the Doctor.   It had the feeling that each character present (including all three Doctors) was necessary to the plot.   It’s certainly the top special in my list  (unless there’s one I’ve forgotten about, but I don’t think so).

[nerys @nerys]

@dentarthurdent I agree with you that “Wild Blue Yonder” was the best of the three. Yet I am glad to have them all. I understand what you mean about the Disney-esque elements. I tried to overlook them. The Flux was kept to a bare minimum, so I was OK with it. Kind of like tying up loose ends, I suppose.

@winston I love your “fuzziest socks” analogy. So comfortable, and such an easy fit. As I think I mentioned before, it was as if no time at all had passed between the Doctor and Donna. Their friendship still carried such a warmth and humor, an understanding based on their shared experiences.

And I agree with you about the 50th Anniversary Special. I doubt that any other special will have the “bigger than the sum of its parts” resonance that “The Day of the Doctor” did … and still does.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Again I would LIKE to avoid tropes and nit picks. Good ep. Creepy. Threat.

This would seem to be a template. Templates have an advantage. You don’t have to resolve a beginning…

Problem:

1. what is mavity about? Because… DoctorDonna haven’t just changed a law of physics. Something else is going on.

2. coffee. Lame.

3. salt at the edge of the universe… is that Glumdoc leading us by the nose, or does he already think something is up? Cos he’s quite ready to say the GR word. And realise no-one knows what he means.

4. I’m uncomfortable with the ‘rescue real Donna’ sequence. Dunno why yet.

My doubts are probably to do with fantasy/sci-fi. Got to be careful with fantasy. Imagine what fantasy could do to Realpolitik!

Probably best new ep apart from Dot and Bubble

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