World Enough and Time

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    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    On another note, what do people think of the theory someone mentioned on the Graun (and which I find intriguing) that the whole thing could be a simulation (a la Extremis) to test Missy without putting anyone in danger — and therefore Bill has been fine this whole time. Which would also explain the re-appearance of Mondasian Cybermen and the Master — aspects of the Doctor’s fears and subconscious that he’s using for the simulation.

    Of course, it doesn’t explain the regeneration in the snow, but perhaps that’s a consequence of when it all goes pear-shaped and of the Doctor’s pride (which comes before a fall)…

    MissRori @missrori

    @jimthefish Interesting take.  🙂  But yeah, how do they de-Cyberize Bill without reducing the menace of the Cybermen down the line?  To me, Heather Creature seemed the best hope for that, a unique, singular solution.  What would be the most satisfying way to save Bill, but only Bill?  Hmm…

    MissRori @missrori

    @jimthefish The simulation idea is fascinating, up to and including the regeneration!  But most non-diehard viewers, and even some of the diehards, would feel cheated.  “Lie of the Land” got into enough trouble already for pulling the wool.  ( Not to mention that there was a “Family Guy” two-parter that pulled this very concept and mocked itself at the end.). 😉

    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish  @pedant Oh I absolutely agree on the Hybrid…..Young Thane should’ve asked me first! 😀

    Hybrids, honestly, not as good as they’re cracked up to be….

    I also think Heather won’t reappear: I actually never thought this needed to be wrapped up? To me, it was an episode functioning as a ‘refresher’ for new or old viewers in Who-mechanics and it ensured Bill saw a touch of the universe and begged to be allowed to keep those memories she briefly shared with Heather. As far as any ‘blame’ associated with her -whether in Lie of the Land or in this episode, I have to be dead honest and say “shit happens.” The Doctor did as he always does: a definitive “no you can’t come” or  “wanna see some stars?” and Bill happily skipped toward death, terror, fun.

    Oh yes, the TLs and Ohila on Karn. That’s all cooked, frozen, re-heated and eaten. I know many fans (but on other less tolerant sites) would complain that Moffat was ‘bringing back the TLs but we hardly saw them, the Doctor ate some soup; refused to shoot anyone so terrible Moffat. Sack him!” Well, maybe not quite that vociferous.  No, actually, it was! I’ve tried to de-simulate my memory 😉

    @soundworld you and me both, buddy:

    That memory as a child was brought up, I remember loneliness, isolation, feeling lost. (Hey, I lived!)…

    That memory of confusion after waking up…..bright lights, pain, unable to speak, cold eyes peering back.

    I remember a ward back in Adelaide where I had pneumonia at age 5. Eight of us (both genders) were in the ward together in which other than windows and a few books there were just high, lumpy beds. Each night, the eldest boy would bully us and steal all seven remaining pillows throwing them back at us just before Matron arrived for showers at 8 am when she yelled: “line up, get undressed, 2 minutes in the shower, share a towel, get changed, clean teeth and then back to bed!!” Some of the 10 year old girls felt very vulnerable naked in the shower around the three or four boys! Awful.

    Me? I missed my parents who could only visit once a week.  Man, that was a bad month! I expect others have worse childhood tales -but yes @soundworld, you’re right: we lived!

    I’ll take peace and contentment over happiness @missrori. Others’ happiness? Yes, that’s important but with the Doctor? I think he’ll be just fine. Next week, though,  I may be forced to eat Missy’s hat    😈


    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish -sorry, yes  the simulation on the Graun mention? I like it. A lot. It is Moff’s stock in trade: ‘cradling the cards’ (a Czech expression meaning distract a person with a good idea and then bring along either a much better one or possibly a worse one!)

    It would have the feel (sort of) of the Hell Sent two-parter, with the Doctor facing his nemesis, remembering just enough…and solving a problem.

    “How do we solve a problem like Maria Missy?”

    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15. Yes, peace and contentment would be enough I think…but the Doc sure looks upset and anguished in the snow!  Maybe he snaps and just blows up the ship to end all his problems?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Hmm I actually like the idea of this all being some kind of simulation al la Extremis, as to why the Doctor regenerates well what if the Doctor has known he was going to need to regenerate but hasn’t been sure he was going to because of what happened in Hell Bent ( well it always puzzled me why he didn’t just regenerate each time he died) and in reality has been trying to convert Missy to take over as the Doctor.

    As to The TLs I was glad to see them reintroduced instead of the Doctor  just being the last of the time lords. Having said that now that they exist in the whoverse once again there’s no need for them to be making constant appearances, a good character or plot concept should be used sparingly.

    Anonymous @


    a suicide a la Tardis? No, I think probably …..not 😉

    Anguish is necessary and that’s part of the fall. After the fall there’s only one way to go….back up -imho

    P x



    well it always puzzled me why he didn’t just regenerate each time he died

    Because it is time lord technology and if anyone knows how to prevent one (or to mask it by making it look like a teleport, while keeping the subject’s regeneration energy topped up) it is them.


    and which I find intriguing) that the whole thing could be a simulation (a la Extremis)

    I think that concept works much better as allegory than plot device. And interesting idea, but would need to be executed with next-level aplomb for it not to feel like a cop out.

    Having scrubbed on iPlayer – not Heather but a (possibly intentional) look-alike. Mind you, I wouldn’t object to them finding a future role of Stephanie Hyam – she has an other-wordliness about her that would slot right into the Whoniverse.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    interesting idea, but would need to be executed with next-level aplomb for it not to feel like a cop out

    tend to agree and not really convinced it will go in that direction. But thought it was interesting and was curious as to what others thought. And it does seem like the simulation aspect was given curious emphasis in Extremis and SM does have form for this sort of resolution a la the Tesselecta, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he did try this.

    But if he did I fully expect the Graun to collapse under the weight of a collective howl of ‘waaaaaah. DEM!!!!!’ (Although it obviously isn’t.)

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave



    I would agree with @pedant on this. While possible, it might drain away the emotional wallop of the episode, such as the Bill’s tear at the end. On the other hand, the more you think about aspects of the episode, the more questions are raised. Such as the Simm Master’s need for a disguise. Bill is unaware of him, so is it just to surprise the audience? Well, yes, it does that, but does it have a narrative logic for him to be disguised? And while the city that houses the patients has a real nightmarish quality (do you remember the movie “Dark City”?) it does raise the question of whether it really is a nightmare. So I can see where the simulation idea is coming from, but, as @pedant points out, it could too easily result in a cop out.

    As for the Doctor resisting regeneration in the snow, still not convinced it is the Doctor. Still, only four more days of guessing!

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Nick @nick


    I don’t disagree that Heather and the puddle might turn out to be nothing much (I think it will depend on whether Chibnall wants to keep Bill as the companion or not). The trailer nicely left out any direct references to Bill’s fate and the flash forward suggests the Doctor ends up alone. How significant that might be will (probably) depend on the plot of the Christmas story.

    However, the ground damage caused by retro-engines (which is quite quaint), on the university grounds, close to the Vault, in hindsight, looks like someone coming to call on Missy (or perhaps the Doctor). I certainly agree this could easily be a red herring from Moff – he’s got plenty of form. On the other hand, it could be a reason why she doesn’t remember the Ship, which Simm Master implied she ought to.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    Such as the Simm Master’s need for a disguise. Bill is unaware of him, so is it just to surprise the audience?

    Well, some of the Master’s previous disguises seemed to have been donned for no earthly reason too, so he does have form in this respect. I suspect he just likes them. But in this case I’m pretty sure Simm had a line of dialogue referring to looking like a former prime minister which I think was there to remind us that Bill would recognise Simm as Harold Saxon and that would be presumably be enough to raise her suspicions. Hence Mr Razor.

    Nick @nick

    On the simulation idea front, I think it could be a let down to use it again. I think that Moff would need to have a very clever idea indeed to avoid spoiling the end of the S10.

    However, I think Moff can have his cake and eat it here. If the plot of the Christmas show becomes “save Bill” (and Missy ?) then a story line where he changes his past and these two episodes become a timeline that never happened/happened differently is a plausible end game.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, yes, I suppose so, but SM does tend to play fast and loose with the selective memory of humanity. On the one hand we have the Doctor telling Bill in previous episodes that there is no limit to humanity’s ability to collectively forget. If we go back to Amy, the Doctor is surprised that she has no memory of Daleks in London. And now, Bill presumably has a memory of Harold Saxon.

    But I do agree about the Master having form when it comes to disguises, which probably lies behind my thoughts on the Doctor regenerating in the snow.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    I think that Moff would need to have a very clever idea indeed to avoid spoiling the end of the S10.

    I agree, but much as I hate to say it, SM’s series finales have been a bit lacklustre of late, since The Name of the Doctor and possibly even The Wedding of River Song. For my money, both Hell Bent and Death in Heaven were a bit disappointing and underachieving compared to the storming part ones that preceded them. I fear — but hope that I’m wrong — that The Doctor Falls might fall into that pattern too.

    Nick @nick


    🙂 I have to agree with you there.

    I think the biggest difference is (I hope) that the Christmas story will include the regeneration proper and will (like The Time of the Doctor) be the concluding part of what is essentially a three part story.

    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15  Anguish as part of a fall, I understand.  But the Twelfth Doctor does not deserve to fall and die alone. He deserves to rise to glory!

    DoctorDani @doctordani

    Haven’t been around for ages, but I just thought I might bob my head above the parapet for the last couple of eps.

    I really do think this might be a simulation, or an alternate reality. I wonder if there isn’t an Inception-esque quality to the way The Doctor is testing Missy. In this episode she knew she was being tested, but what if there’s another layer to it that she’s not really aware of? Maybe even this ‘version’ of Twelve, Bill and Nardole aren’t aware of it either. The precedent of other iterations of all three of them was set up earlier in the series. The thing that really set me off on this train of thought is the fact that Missy has zero re-collection of ‘Mr Razor’, or the circumstances surrounding her meeting her former incarnation. Surely she should have if they share a timeline?

    All in all, I think that kind of scenario might pose troubling answers to questions that were hinted at in The Monks trilogy, i.e. are simulated lives worth as much as real ones? “Am I a good man?” is the conundrum that’s been hanging over Capaldi’s Doctor since the start. If he were to start playing God with ‘simulated lives’ then perhaps the ultimate answer to that question might not be what we expect.

    Just as a really quick aside, I thought Twelve mentioning his superior two hearts, and then Bill ending up with her cyberman heart might point to something. We already know he more or less put Nardole together during his time on Darillium. Would he sacrifice one of his hearts to save her? I know it’s probably a really daft notion, but I couldn’t get the idea out of my head.

    hairlesspet @hairlesspet

    This may have already been discussed, but what if Missy is in fact an older version of the Master, and it is Simm’s Master who has forgotten his past self? It would make sense that she doesn’t ever recall being there, and it would make sense why Simm recognized who she was. I think it would fit in with Simm’s overconfident Master in that he wouldn’t be able to come to grips with the idea he can’t remember being there as Missy. Perhaps she’ll regenerate into Derrick Jacobi? Far fetched, but we’ll see…

    Brewski @brewski

    Personally I’m not too troubled by Missy not remembering being on the colony ship.  Seems to be a side-effect of TL’s meeting themselves.  Ten and Eleven had an entire conversation about not remembering the events.  “How can you not remember this?”  “Hey, its not my fault!  Obviously you weren’t paying attention!”  Hell, Eleven didn’t even remember having fooled around with a Zygon!

    The whole-thing-was-a-simulation would disappoint me.  Pretty cliche.  I’d have to vote the same for “we’ll just re-write history.”  It would make me think: Oh good, no more danger now.  All you have to do is go back and fix it.  Five even got very bent out of shape when they suggested he should go back and save Adric.

    Here’s a weird thought that just came to me:  (okay, what thought have I expressed yet that HASN’T been weird?! 😛 )  When Bill talks about Missy being a murderer, the Doctor points out that she is blithely eating a bacon sandwich and to remember that it had parents before she takes such high moral ground.  But… isn’t that remark a much more Master/Missy thing to say?!  Are we sure at least some of what we’ve seen Twelve do hasn’t really been the Master in disguise?



    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Fresh uploads! Nice!

    WEAT transcript

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Sorry – I thought that was the whole thing. This one is, though… (If a mod wants to delete post #59799 – fine)

    MissRori @missrori

    I don’t know, I just feel angry and disappointed by the prospect of Twelve dying alone like this, in the snowy wastes.  It seems like a cruel, callous way to see out a character who wasn’t as popular with the “mainstream” audience.  Where’s the warmth of the TARDIS, visions of absent friends, love and peace in his hearts, a head held high?  He’s suffering enough right now.

    I know, I know, there’s still “The Doctor Falls” and the Christmas show, but I want this poor old dog to be thrown the juiciest bone possible before he goes.  A reunion with Susan,  1,000 years of “wiggle room” with Clara, something like that.  😉

    nerys @nerys

    @geoffers Thank you for that explanation. My husband had to explain the black hole/time perception thing to me two different ways before I (sort of) got it on his second explanation. Abstract ideas and I have never got along very well.

    Anonymous @

    @hairlesspet Hi there and welcome! Good to see new members -and also @doctordani I’m glad to see you too! It’s been awhile and I love your “daft” theory! It’s what this site is above all: bonkers theories. Much more bonkerising to come. Bring it 🙂

    @hairlesspet Loved your theory too. A few people have come up with something similar but on the Spoiler’s Thread: warning -go to the Spoiler’s thread at own risk 😉

    @arbutus and @wolfweed thank you for the score -it is gorgeous and possibly one of the best yet. In the past, my techie mate from work could disconnect somethingorrather and I could hear the score without  the dialogue but it was a bit tricky and once, when I fiddled with wires, ended up with a very mild electric shock (that’ll learn me).

    @mudlark I hope you’re well: on site you mentioned visitors staying with you but, you know us me: this is Doctor Who, more important than food or sleep and we need to hear your take on the episode! 😉

    Love to all,


    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @nerys I didn’t notice the explanation by @geoffers, but it’s not simply time perception, it is the actual passage of time, measured by any means, that is affected. The really short explanation is high gravity = slow time. The difference of hundred of kilometres from the top to the bottom of the ship affects the relative gravity felt at the two ends when really close to the black hole, so time is slowed a lot more at the end closer to the black hole.


    This is all great bonkerising and long may it continue but previous experience should still teach us that series finales are always less complex and in need of far less resolution than our theorising has led them to be.

    I’m working on that assumption too, having gotten a little too much into the bonkerising at the end of last season. In the end there are always things left open, and that’s OK – it’s preferable in fact if it leads to speculation and leaves room for new stories. I still expect a fair amount of resolution though- the writers have to finish the story they start.

    I think the introduction of the Time Lords and Gallifrey was one of the worst things the BG team ever did.

    I’m not sure why you’re so down on the TLs. I think it was an important piece of exposition for the Doctor’s roots to be shown over the course of many seasons of BG Who, though I’ll admit that the execution of showing the TLs in BG Who wasn’t always that great. I wouldn’t mind seeing more of the TLs someday. The Doctor made a powerful enemy in Rassilon, so to my mind, that’s an open thread that could very easily be revisited. Interesting that it was revisited in audiobook form- that may indicate that it’s not planned for the main series- though I assume audio content isn’t necessarily tightly approved or regarded as canon). Agreed that the TLs shouldn’t be a well that’s visited too often though.

    @nick I didn’t feel that the conclusion to The Pilot was such that it demanded any further exposition. Having said that though, there would be a satisfying symmetry in Bill’s first story connecting with her last. If the alien ship were to come for her and absorb her, regardless of her form, then I can see that being a satisfying resolution.

    Anonymous @

    one point on the Master. Perhaps @nick you might have an idea regarding this? When Tennant’s Doctor arrived back with Martha et al into the ‘world’ where Saxon is PM, the Doctor implied that the Master would know he was there: a ‘6th sense’ would alert the Master to the Doctor’s presence?

    Now I understand the Doctor hadn’t met Razor or heard his voice -even the accent (and the Doctor was heavily preoccupied at  the time) hid the Master  but wouldn’t the Doctor sense his presence? Or could it be that as Missy is there with him, that there’d be no need to ‘alert’ the Doctor as Missy IS the Master. ** head beginning to drip brains from neurological

    @tardigrade -just noticed an email notification in my ‘box’ so what is your opinion of the Doctor being alerted to another TL in relative proximity? -if you have time to answer, of course!

    I think the TLs with Moffat were given a good ‘ending’ as it were: I know a lot of people really wanted the TLs to be ‘back on screen in living colour’ following Tennant’s departure but the Master was effectively sent  “back to hell” reappearing as Missy years later. I too would love to know where in the timeline this ‘Master’ fits exactly: I expect my head would explode 😀


    lisa @lisa


    Me ‘suggested’ that it was The Doctor and Clara that created ‘the Hybrid’  and

    that’s fine if you agree with it.   She didn’t deliver convincing proof for me.

    Moff definitely has  had lots of fun creating many versions of  hybrid.

    You know what –   A new show runner might decide to pick up the Hybrid idea all

    over again  and I wouldn’t be  very surprised  to see  that.



    tardigrade @tardigrade

    @thane15 I’ve interpreted that to mean that TLs tend to recognise each other when directly talking to each other- a skill that would be handy when friends can regenerate into completely new bodies, and I think that is the context in which that particular skill was introduced. I don’t take that as meaning they have a Jedi-like sense of other TLs in the vicinity. Saxon didn’t immediately recognise his later incarnation over the slowed down B&W monitor for example. In any case, even if the Doctor did somehow get a sense that his old “friend” was in the vicinity, that wouldn’t trigger alarm bells, since he brought Missy there himself.


    You know what – A new show runner might decide to pick up the Hybrid idea all over again and I wouldn’t be very surprised to see that.

    Although I wasn’t one who was enthused about the resolution of the identity of the Hybrid, I do think the given answer(s) were intended to settle it. I’d be happier not to see this revisited. A “hybrid”, when it can be interpreted metaphorically, is so general that I think it qualifies as a Barnum statement, so is pretty much useless as a prophecy.

    lisa @lisa


    I’m not saying that I’d be super enthusiastic but I think of it like the Master’s return..

    Its what you can do with a character.   I’m really liking the return of  Saxon in this

    better then the last time around.

    Curious  about his return  is that the last time we saw him the Time War was

    a thing.  I wonder if we find out that it still is in the next/last episode?  I’ve been

    trying to think it thru about how and why it feels to me like he’s been marooned on that ship?

    Might be something done to him?  He’s been tasked by Time Lords  for some war demands before.

    Maybe again?    Well I’m glad that the Saxon Master is back!

    You think it might be possible that the Saxon Master doesn’t know that Galifrey has been saved?

    He might have missed all of that?    How long has he been on that ship?  He might think the war

    is still happening?   Maybe that’s why Missy doesn’t remember? Saving Galifrey might have

    changed their time lines?   Well  just more to chew on.



    MissRori @missrori

    Now here’s another comparison between Master-as-Razor and the Doctor that I just thought of tonight — and it might be a clue to Bill’s salvation.

    Nardole originally met the Doctor while helping River Song with a plan that was risky, and where things ultimately went very wrong.  He ended up with his head lopped off and attached to that of Hydroflax’s body (and later had to share it with Ramon).  But eventually, the Doctor was able to give him a cyborg body that — while put together on the cheap — seems to work pretty well and look pretty human.  And he has since been a faithful, amiable companion who retains his agency.  Even if the Doctor doesn’t listen to him all that often, he does have to remember that Nardole is authorized to kick his butt!

    Now the Master’s taken poor Bill’s body and ultimately turned it into a near-helpless robot slave….

    But the Doctor can find a way to fix her like he fixed up Nardole.  It wouldn’t be quite the same, it wouldn’t be perfect, but she could be happy again as a cyborg or otherwise.

    Does anyone else here agree with my friend’s theory that Moffat will bring his Who stories full circle here by making “The Doctor Falls” thematically loop back to “The Doctor Dances” and its triumphant ending?  It’s not impossible to have this turn out to be Everybody Lives.  Who wants to see a Doctor go out on a bum note anyway?  All he has to do is show a little love… 😉

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord


    I’m not sure why you’re so down on the TLs. I think it was an important piece of exposition for the Doctor’s roots to be shown over the course of many seasons of BG Who

    Not sure I’d agree. The only really essential TL appearance, I think is The War Games. That one, I think, serves a point, and serves the purpose of deepening and moving the show on at a point when it needed it. You can probably also make a case for the The Three Doctors as it was really the only plausible way at the time to get the three docs together. But everything after that is superfluous, even the Deadly Assassin. But yeah, you’re right, another issue has been the portrayal of Gallifrey, which even the new series just doesn’t have enough money to do justice.

    One of the issues is that it problematises the Doctor and I think this was the key thing that SM was interested in when he brought them back. The TLs overlay a strata of class over the Whoniverse, with the TLs as the natural-born aristocrats, the old Etonians of the universe. However nomadic, however egalitarian, the Doctor is essentially operating out of a position of privilege. And that problematises him somewhat. I don’t necessarily have a problem with him having that background but it does complicate a) how he views the universe and b) how the viewer approaches the Doctor. I think both showrunners have recognised this. RTD solved it by making the TLs not exist anymore and SM, to his credit, tackled it head on and solved it by re-establishing the dynamic of utter estrangement.

    My main problem is that their introduction constricted the Whoniverse far too much. Just to take an example, I’ve been dipping into The Tenth Planet on the back of WEAT and just look how otherworldly and strange it all is. The Doctor doesn’t know the Cybermen, doesn’t know Mondas. The Cybermen don’t know him. It’s all just one other strange, and menacing, event in a huge, unknowable universe. Flashforward to, say, Earthshock and the Cybermen know all about Time Lords, TARDISes, Gallifrey and so on. This universe of connection where everyone seems to know everyone else has been created. It’s more akin to the world of Star Trek or Star Wars, of races connected by knowledge, if not outright political alliances.

    And I think Who was left the poorer for it. The Whoniverse of the 1960s was multifold, disconnected, unknowable and even a bit chaotic (kind of like its real-life version). It would have been far better I think if the Time Lords had been only rarely seen, if at all. Their planet should not even have been given a name and if they were just invoked in name, not unlike She Who Must Be Obeyed. The version of the 1970s-1980s was smaller, more parochial and had a definite hierarchy. The AG series and the Time War restored the Whoniverse to something resembling its original state and I think that was a good idea and not one I’d want to see reversed too much.

    Sorry about that. Bit off-topic and lengthy to boot. (slaps wrist)

    MissRori @missrori

    @jimthefish  No, I think you make some good points.  While I am disappointed that the Twelfth Doctor hasn’t rebuilt his burnt bridges with his people — which would be a good Christmas premise, but I kinda doubt that the Moff’s going to be doing that — given his “always make amends” principle, it is better for him and the show not to have that hanging over him so much.

    Brewski @brewski

    @tardigrade I’ve interpreted that to mean that TLs tend to recognise each other when directly talking to each other- a skill that would be handy when friends can regenerate into completely new bodies…

    I would agree with this.  In The Five Doctors, Three didn’t immediately recognize the Master (admittedly though he was in a stolen body) but did catch on after a few moments conversation.

    Ten only suspected who Eleven was until the latter produced the (man-sized) Sonic.

    A “hybrid”, when it can be interpreted metaphorically, is so general that I think it qualifies as a Barnum statement, so is pretty much useless as a prophecy.

    Actually I would say that makes it IDEAL for a prophesy.  Don’t they usually rely on ambiguity?

    @jimthefish My main problem is that their introduction constricted the Whoniverse far too much.

    You make an interesting point here, and I don’t really disagree with you.  However I am not sure you can “blame” the introduction of the Time Lords for it.  It seems to me the situation you describe is going to be inevitable in any program with great longevity.  Themes will repeat, characters (especially popular ones) will reappear.  If the TLs had never been added to the Whoniverse, the Doctor himself would still have ultimately gained a reputation, become known to greater numbers of people.  Been remembered by reappearing enemies.  So that mystery of the Great Unknown of the early years would have gradually diminished under pretty much any circumstances.  I think what having the TLs might do is allow the writers to take an easy out.  In the same way they can (and often do) with the Sonic.  Jump to a ready-made explanation.  And I am not even saying that is always bad.  The psychic paper CAN be over used.  On the other hand, we all know the Doctor will (and needs to) take control of the situation.  It saves a lot of time and redundant exposition to short-cut him into the leadership role.

    Okay, now *I* am rambling too long. Feel free to slap my wrist as well. 🙂

    Wanted to add a side-note re the discussion of the Doctor’s name and whether he is “officially” Doctor Who:  Without looking up the specifics, there is a Tom Baker ep where there is a case of mistaken identity, and Four cheekily says “No one knows Who’s Who around here.”

    Nick @nick


    Whilst I agree with you that BG Who would not have been worse off if the TL’s were never invented by Malcolm Hulke and Terence Dicks , the Doctor’s origin was a story that was always going to be told one day. I think they did their best to make the Time Lords as irrelevant as they could to the wider Who universe.

    The War Games/3 Doctor time lords were passive bureau/technocrats monitoring with universe, with no society to speak of. At worst the Deadly Assassin showed they liked to dress up for special occasions. Up to this point, I can’t really see how there existence changed or narrowed the Who universe or the impacted Doctor to any real extent.

    The next step, making the Doctor an occasional unwilling agent of the Time Lords to interfere in the universe (culminating in Genesis of the Daleks) seems like a reasonable development of the initial conception of the TL’s, but I don’t think changed things in the BG universe to any large extent. Certainly, after Genesis, the BG Time Lord stories were at best poor and more than a bit silly.

    When RTD was developing AG Who, I don’t really see how the existence (or otherwise) of the TL’s affected things in any significant way, except that there would have been some pressure from older BG Who fans to revisit them at some point.

    I haven’t read what RTD’s thinking was, but it seems to me that his decision, bringing the mythic Time War to the TV show and destroying the Daleks/TLs in the process, changed Who Universe mythology more, in one single stroke, than in the whole of the BG series.

    It placed the Time Lords and the Time War at the centre of the Who universe. By bringing back post Time War Daleks, RTD also made it inevitable that the TL’s would reappear eventually.

    I think I understand why RTD did it. It allowed him to write the character of the Doctor in a completely new way, as a complex flawed hero, which might (would ?) have been much more difficult to do without the Time War. Certainly, the characterisation and character arcs of both the Ecclestone and Tennant’s Doctors (and Smiths ?), could not have been written the way they were without the Time War as key background.

    Furthermore, I suggest that this one decision is the most important foundation stone upon which AG Who Universe has been built. We could debate the pros/cons of this decision, but it has been made. By placing the Time Lords/Time War at the heart of AG Who mythology, it became inevitable that the Time Lords had to be very different from the initial BG conception of passive technocrats.

    Anonymous @


    And I think Who was left the poorer for it. The Whoniverse of the 1960s was multifold, disconnected, unknowable and even a bit chaotic (kind of like its real-life version). It would have been far better I think if the Time Lords had been only rarely seen, if at all..

    Interesting: that’s the best argument I’ve heard regarding the parochial quality of the TLs. To some extent static, archaic (and yet during the ’70s when things were, or should’ve been, moving on politically, socially…) and class-bound, they were painted as caricatures, at times,  which rarely played well.

    @lisa and @tardigrade -thank you! That helps a lot. It’s been a while since ol’ Captain Jack, Doctor 10 and Martha arrived on PM Saxon’s island….


    Anonymous @


    By placing the Time Lords/Time War at the heart of AG Who mythology,

    any showrunner could then dispense with them quickly. (that’s how I’d end the sentence!)  🙂

    I think the Lonely God  was a problem stemming from ‘Gallifrey Lost’?

    I often enjoyed sections within episodes where there were hints of other TLs -such as in The Doctor’s Wife: the mystery is often better, more seductive? Being able to exile some of the more depraved and cowardly TLs whilst literally drawing a line in the sand was a very positive way of handling Planet Gallifrey at the end of Series 9. It was referenced all thru the 50th anniversary and worked its magic by using the memories and knowledge of the three Doctors -and The Moment. After that, it’s hard to know how to move them on……<whistle>

    MissRori @missrori

    @thane15  I think it’s better that the Gallifrey issue isn’t as pronounced now, even if I personally have some niggly bits I would like to see worked out.

    The problem with the TL’s being destroyed by the Doctor’s hand was that blowing up Gallifrey was just too big a sin for him to move past without looking like a monster, so it hung over the revival like a cloud until the 50th.  Then Moffat undid it and from there was able to reset the Doctor’s position with Gallifrey in “Hell Bent”, and it no longer matters all that much.  It still informs the Doctor’s loneliness (i.e. his need to redeem the Master/Missy) but in a much different way.

    Which reminds me that poor Twelve never got a cool nickname in his era.  10 got to be the Lonely God and 11 the Oncoming Storm.  12 didn’t get anything cooler than Doctor Disco, and he gave himself that moniker.  😉

    Craig @craig

    I came across this today – what if this episode had been made in the 1960s? It’s got different music and sound effects. Is quite fun.

    pıtırcapaldi @pitircapaldi

    one minute one minute n the same episode

    Master regenerate to Missy ? How are they together ? Im confusing

    pıtırcapaldi @pitircapaldi


    This video is excellent 😀

    MissRori @missrori

    @pitircapaldi  There have been multi-Doctor stories, why not multi-Master stories?  🙂  Or are you asking about something more technical?

    MissRori @missrori

    @tardigrade, Last year, Titan Comics did a five-part miniseries, Supremacy of the Cybermen, specifically about Rassilon trying to get vengeance on the Doctor for the events of “Hell Bent” — he turned out to have a place to go after all and enlisted the help of the very last Cybermen.  They conquer Gallifrey, completely rewrite the universe with a zillion paradoxes involving every Doctor either being converted or seeing companions converted, etc.  Rassilon turns out to have bitten more than he can chew though, and in the end helps the Doctor push a big red metaphorical reset button and only the Doctor (and maybe Rassilon) remembers the alternate timelines.

    Sad to say, it wasn’t very good — because it was splitting its time between the Ninth, Tenth, Eleventh, and Twelfth Doctors (none of whom cross over) it didn’t really explore the conflict between Twelve and Rassilon — for instance, Clara Oswald isn’t mentioned once.   I skipped issues 3 and 4 (it was really slow to be released, which didn’t help) and felt I didn’t miss much.  I thought it was a shame that the comics were allowed to do a story like this and dropped the ball, especially as the Twelfth Doctor’s monthly title is exceptional.

    Nick @nick


    You’re right, having placed the TL’s at the centre, they could then be removed from it permanently, but that hasnt happened. The opposite in fact, they keep getting brought back. Three times now – brought back and destroyed again, brought back, saved them but shunted them a pocket universe, brought back into this universe (but hidden away), just what can you do.

    One thing seems clear. They cant be brought back into this universe with any prominence as Moff has made it absolutely clear that this would bring us back to a new Time War scenario, which I dont think is anything we want to see on TV (let alone be done without a film sized budget).

    You can write Rassilon (End of Time) as a good person making desperate decisions at desperate point regardless of consequence, an absolute dictator or (better) something in between. However, after he has fallen from power, the “what next” is quite limited. Executed. Exile on the run hiding and/or seeking to return to power or on a path to a personal redemption. But that’s about it.

    What you can’t do, is make Rassilon into a personal enemy of the Doctor. If you do, you’re just creating Master 2.0 (which is ultimately why the Rani concept didnt worked – in fact moff should retcon her into a Master). [The Valeyard idea could have worked, but failed as the portrayal was yet another Master, buts that’s a different matter].

    It seems to me, we’re a bit stuffed right now. Getting out of this hole is going to take a very good idea isnt it ? (or a lot of retconning).

    Still, we’ve seen some excellent stories as compensation :).

    Nick @nick


    You’re reply to @jimthefish sums up the he situation in BG Who better than I wrote.

    One thought though re

    On the other hand, we all know the Doctor will (and needs to) take control of the situation.  It saves a lot of time and redundant exposition to short-cut him into the leadership role.

    Some of the very best Who stories, certainly in BG era, benefit from a mysterious build up, setting the scene and the key characters. I think one problem with many AG stories is that they jump into heart of the story has been too fast.

    MissRori @missrori

    @nick  I agree that it’s just too hard to come up with a recurring Time Lord baddie that won’t come off as Master 2.0.  That’s pretty much what Rassilon became in Supremacy of the Cybermen.

    I know that the Rani and the Valeyard are the two most requested BG villains that haven’t shown up in the AG series (I guess they’ve both had a lot of Big Finish audios), but it’s just not going to happen.  The one big thing that the Valeyard had distinguishing him from the Master was the conceit that he was the embodiment of the Doctor’s dark side, which worked at a time when the franchise really was just for the kiddies, but AG has enjoyed more freedom to just let the Doctor crack up now and then and show his darker aspects in the process, as in “The Waters of Mars”, “Amy’s Choice”, and “Hell Bent”.  The Valeyard would be/have been especially redundant in the Twelfth Doctor era; Twelve is sort of a “sacred darkness” figure.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I’m a lumberjack & I’m okay…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Apparently floor zero loses 17 seconds…

    Off to check…….

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