World Enough and Time
24 June 2017 at 11:44 #59526Craig @craigEmperor
The start of the finale to the season. It’s written by Steven Moffat and directed by Rachel Talalay, who has done sterling work on Who with episodes such as last series double-bill finale – “Heaven Sent” and “Hell Bent”. It’s really very good, and includes some proper hide-behind-the-sofa moments.
A huge spaceship trapped in the gravity well of a black hole, teeming with impossible lifeforms, harbours one of the Doctor’s most feared enemies… Mondasian Cybermen. Friendship drives the Doctor into the rashest decision of his life. Is there any way he can redeem his mistake? For once, time is the Time Lord’s enemy…
Once again this takes its time to build the story steadily. Moffat and Talalay have done an incredible job. Can’t wait for next week already.24 June 2017 at 13:10 #59533
It’s not too much of a downer, is it? A ray of hope teased?24 June 2017 at 19:39 #5953924 June 2017 at 19:46 #59540
Well that was fantastic. It seems the Master helped create the Mondasian cybermen, although I think that might be a red herring. We’ll have to wait til next week to find out Bill’s fate. I’m not yet convinced her death is inevitable.
Lots of questions regarding the Missy/Master relationship and when and why the regeneration started. The Doctor is clearly trying to stop it from happening. I think there might be a clue here. One possibility is that this episode is happening earlier in the Doctor’s timelime than in either Bill or Missy’s. It looks to me that he has gone back into his own timeline in the past (I suggest Missy’s “are you alright Doctor” marks the point) and will somehow stop Bill ever going to the ship.24 June 2017 at 19:46 #59541Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
Omg OmgOmg worked out the janitor wasn’t what he appeared about halfway through and guessed at the Master about 3/4 of the way thought Bill might just avoid full cyberization though. Damn didn’t see her effectively being the first cyberman though. Really need a second, third and fourth rewatching to really absorb the full ramifications and damn it looks like the Doctor’s regeneration is going to be triggered by something that happens next week judging from the beginning of the episode.24 June 2017 at 20:08 #59542
Live Q&A peaked @ 7 thousand. 6 thousand saw the Pre-Telosian Cybermen strutting their stuff…24 June 2017 at 20:17 #5954524 June 2017 at 20:31 #59546
In one of your early post you said you take pride in being a grown up Doctor Who fan. Feel free to start.
Also, capitalisation and complete sentences are your friend.24 June 2017 at 20:32 #59547
For a moment, when they were walking through the “town” I thought I caught s glimpse of Heather in a window.24 June 2017 at 20:36 #59548
@nick Hi — was following reactions on Twitter on my side of the pond. 😉
But the Doctor can’t stop Bill from going to the ship, can he? It’s a fixed point now, and he knows all too well he can’t change one. If he could do that with his TARDIS, why didn’t he do that to save Clara? Why not just get Bill to a proper hospital, clone her a new body? Or remind her of her mum and shake off that metal skin with love? Kiss her, hug her, tell her to love love love and watch the miracle! Come on Doctor! 🙂24 June 2017 at 20:51 #59549iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor
ive seen the ending, bill dies, the doctor gets botox which goes wrong and he regenerates into jeremy corbyn, the master regenerates into theresa man, and they have an intergalactic debate, with the daleks in attendance, then isis appear and the shit hits the fan24 June 2017 at 20:52 #59550iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor
one thing i bet my hat on, and im not kidding on now
i bet all im worth, that captain jack harkness returns next week24 June 2017 at 20:56 #59551
I suppose ultimately, a point is only fixed if Moff wants it to be. I dont know if Bill survives, but since the closing scene was a tear from her eye, then it’s clear that she is still in there underneath the conversion. There is some hope then. Having written that, unlike the Raven ,where the episode never felt epic enough for me ti believe that Clara was gone forever. This episode (and the next one) are epic, so the hope may prove to be futile.
One difference between Bill and Clara, is that Bill isnt dead, she’s on life support. One would imagine the technology would be available to the Doctor to under do the cyber-conversion and fix the damage to her heart and lungs (whether by cloning organs or some other form of technology). However, the Doctor has to get her back to level 1, off the ship and undo whatever the cyber control operating system now controls her (if that is the case with Mondas cybermen). That could well be a difficult task judging by the trailer.
I remain convinced that the regeneration in the final Monk episode is real and that there is something a bit funny about Bill, but this isnt the place to discuss that. However, as we get closer to the final episodes, it’s becoming less clear what is going on (typical Moff !).24 June 2017 at 20:58 #59552Hynesj @hynesj
That was a purely spectacular episode, at times genuinely chilling and those final minutes were captivating.
I think the planet the Doctor lands on at the start of the episode is Mondas at the time of ‘The Tenth Planet’ (a serial I have never watched but I am most certainly planning on watching it now). This gives weight to the theory that the Doctor will meet his first incarnation in the Christmas episode, kind of tying it to this two-parter. Perhaps the Doctor is suppressing his regeneration throughout the episode in a way similar to Eleven’s final scene.24 June 2017 at 21:11 #5955324 June 2017 at 21:39 #59555
@nick Well, as I said – if Bill is still there, then getting her out from under Cyber-control should be easy at least. He tells her to shake it off, think of love, his love, her mum’s love. And then they just take the lift.
Or, maybe he realizes he doesn’t need to “fix” her. He doesn’t judge by appearances. He will always love her no matter what, and he knows she loves him. Now he has a companion who won’t die, or betray him like Missy! Think of those wonderful new adventures they can have…A silver lining in the cloud. (Sniff)24 June 2017 at 21:44 #59556
That’s a clever idea: Landing in Antarctica at the time of that episode.
I hope you enjoy the Tenth Planet. The Cybermen are at their best there (along with Moonbase and Tomb of the Cybermen). That story goes wrong in the third episode (William Hartnell was ill), but apart from that it works really well as a story.24 June 2017 at 21:48 #59557
Whilst you’re right about the Doctor and appearances, living as an (emotional) Cyberman is a a long way from living imo. I don’t think Moff would deliver that.24 June 2017 at 21:51 #59558
@nick But she will have the Doctor with her! He can make her life so rich and wonderful, fill her heart with beauty to ease the pain, cocktails with Moses! Wonders forever and ever. She’ll be human as she ever was…alive…24 June 2017 at 22:07 #59559
🙂 tell me that when you’ve seen the episode (I guess you wont get the chance until tomorrow ?)24 June 2017 at 22:07 #59560
Fully-converted cybermen arn’t supposed to show emotions.
However, fully-converted Bill was crying her eyes out.
Also note Nardole’s digs about The Doctor not showing emotions.
I also wonder whether The Doctor will have the stronger bond wuth Missy or The Master.24 June 2017 at 22:08 #59561
I’m sure regen energy could repair Bill. I couldnt tell if the face in the window was Heather or not. Nice idea though 🙂24 June 2017 at 22:13 #59562Hynesj @hynesj
Also did anyone notice that Bill’s tear in the final moments helped make the traditional Cybermn eye? I think this is a brilliant moment in which we see that all Cyberman are in pain, crying, through the tear they share.24 June 2017 at 22:17 #59563Devilishrobby @devilishrobby
The issue the Doctor has he’s now faced with a similar dilemma that he faced in Genesis of the Daleks he Could be potentially be affecting the timeline of the universe and incidentally his own time line. Bill is the first Monosian type Cyberman and if he stops their further development and either manages to decyberise Bill or even kill her( for the greater good) the cyber race might never come to pass as this ship is the birthplace of the cybermen. In addition to this from statements by Sims Master to Missy I get the feeling the Master has a greater part in the genesis of the CyberRace so if Missy interferes she’s also interfering with her own timeline as the Masters statement about worrying about his future incarnation firmly places Missy as post SimsMaster.24 June 2017 at 22:39 #59565
@nick I’ll see it in a few hours. 🙂 I know what you’re trying to say, but the Doctor is a healer after all. He can find a way…
And @devilishrobby has a point; he might not be able to fix her without causing a really bad paradox. Maybe this was all meant to be. So make the best of it…people who are disabled or suffer constant pain can still live wonderful lives if they are treated with love. If she can feel, then all he needs to do is fill her life with happiness. He can help her acclimate to a new life, help her family and friends on Earth understand. She’s sad now, but the Doctor is here to help. Brave heart! 😉24 June 2017 at 22:48 #59566
Is this week’s David Bowie song “Fill Your Heart”?24 June 2017 at 22:51 #59567optimall @optimall
Just……WOW24 June 2017 at 23:11 #59568
Time to be Bonkers
Could Bill’s emotional feeling (and the ability to feel pain) cause a developement in cybernation where the cybermen become more empathic with people that they try and upgrade?24 June 2017 at 23:13 #59569
Hi. I may be wrong, but I didnt see anything that made Bill the first Mondas Cyberman. There were lots of other Mondasians ahead of her who cybertised (apart from adding the pain/emotion nullifying tech). Also the Mondasians were colonists trying to escape from Mondas, so presumably they can also be created there as well anyway ?
As for the Master’s role – we’ll have to wait and see.24 June 2017 at 23:30 #59570
Will Bill become Handles?
If there is anybody out there whose physics is more up to date than mine, how does time dilation due to gravity combine with any tidal effects?24 June 2017 at 23:53 #59572Anonymous @
Hey there! The old Purofilion here! How you be doin? It’s been a while since we’ve seen you around with your bonkers theories.
As to physics? Hah! My boy, on whose account I play, Thane, might be able to shed more light on that….:)
Me? I just wanted to shout out a big “halloooooo.” Love the Handles idea….who wouldn’t love ‘handles’?
Also I spy @tommo on the Forum too. Another “halloooo!”
Puro25 June 2017 at 00:08 #59574
The gravitational side is quite well explained here:
With time dilation, its a relative effect. As a particle spirals towards the singularity, a clock closer to the black hole will slow down relative to one further away, even though the particles themselves accelerate (and heat up giving off radiation) as they spiral towards the singularity. At each measurement point (the clock) time passes at the “normal’ rate for both observers.25 June 2017 at 00:54 #59580
WE&T: A short summation –
The ship is a little bit Beast Below, but it’s more Silent Running…
Dr Who was in TARDIS.
‘Shnacks.’ ‘Hurry my stallion.’
Dabbing is some kind of reference to smoking Cannabis. Moffat pleads ignorance…
‘It’s not an exercise – It’s a test!’ (Bobby Ewing in the shower???)
‘I should go back to blue.’ ‘Now don’t be a bitch!’
Inertia lifts. I thinks this is a reference to the travelator method in ‘The Pirate Planet’ Either that or Bessie…
A test run (A good idea) ‘Pick a good one – Our usual Saturday’ ‘You pop like balloons.’
(On hearts) ‘…Most important organ – No back up -It’s like a budget cut!’
The Patients – They’ll snap you in half…
‘…Smurf…’ Psychic message = Wait for me. Sonic pen! Mr Razor. PAIN…(etc.)
The dials are the volume for PAIN & KILL ME
The Master’s theme kicks in @ Razor’s room (& again a little later). Heart-Broken’ …Vending machine…’
They’re spending years watching Dr Who on the telly! ‘Superman Gravity.’ Cinderella mops the floor.
The girl who waited. ‘Die me!’ ‘Evolution is not fast enough.’ Solar Farms
Razor’s burgling mask – A disguise within a disguise… Won’t stop you feeling pain, will stop you caring.
Cleverer = More Evil Vital organ soup (Giles Estram reprises his role…)
‘I’m very worried about my future.’ Genesis I’ve been waiting…….25 June 2017 at 01:00 #59581
Dabbing is some kind of reference to smoking Cannabis. Moffat pleads ignorance…
That would appear to be a minority view…25 June 2017 at 01:17 #59583
@pedant I had no idea it was such a contentious issue! That’ll teach me not to trust everything I Google…
That video should be included on the series 10 boxset! Love it.
Moffat is hereby pardoned & can roam free to finish episode 12!25 June 2017 at 01:32 #59584
@Myself They’re spending years watching Dr Who on the telly!
(Only it’s rather slow paced & in black & white)25 June 2017 at 01:59 #59586Charlie Cook @cookgroom
With reference to the earlier reference to Bobby in the shower, I shall be very dusappointed if that is the answer – especially as they have already had a ‘it didn’t really happen’ moment earlier, in the Monks episodes.25 June 2017 at 02:05 #59588Nyan @madalyne11
I thoroughly loved the episode! Can’t wait for next week’s finale.25 June 2017 at 02:15 #59589
One thing that I guess we’re meant to deduce, is that the 20 or so Humans (Mondasians) who left Deck 1 to the engine room to put the engines into reverse and never came back grew into a population of thousands (I assume the city was there already ?). Is this right ?
The other thing that didnt make much sense (yet) was if the patients could use the lift to get to deck 1, why did the advance party of Mondasians disappear at the higher level ?
Time dilation effect. I think I’ve got this right.
The point of time dilation is that whilst going up the lift takes minutes in your personal point of reference, the elapsed time at either end of the ship would be very different. Thus a trip to deck 1 and back might take you 10 minutes as you see it, but years would pass at the bottom deck and only seconds on deck 1.
For the crew that went to the engine room they might be there for 2 hours say. If they then returned directly to deck 1, it would have seemed like only 10s of seconds later for those that remained on deck 1.
Therefore, the 20 or so crew would have had to decided to stayed on the lowest deck and never have attempted to return to deck 1 (why ?). If we are to believe that the Mondasian population are the descendants of the first 20 or so people, then it would have taken hundreds of years (thousands even) in lowest deck relative time to create a significant population. This might equate to 10s of days on deck 1 relative time.
The relative time (in lowest deck relative time terms) taken for the return journey to deck 1 and back, must be tens or more likely many decades or more as measured at the lowest level of the ship. Therefore the patients that went up the lift to collect the remaining Human crew and then later Bill (and why use Patients ?) would reappear tens or hundreds of years later in lowest level time frame.
That would mean the process to create the Cybermen from the Mondas population would have taken a very long time. This clearly wasn’t the case as the Surgeon and Bill passed only tens of years at the most.
I hope that makes sense. It could explain why the Mondasian party to the higher level appeared never to return (but given that the patients are created, sent to deck 1 and return twice in the same window it would seem to be implausible).25 June 2017 at 02:22 #59590Anonymous @25 June 2017 at 02:49 #59591RorySmith @rorysmith
Somebody snuck it on YouTube. I got to watch before it was flagged. Lol
I don’t have the words. Bill😭
Missy reacting to her former self was amazing. Michelle is awesome at those little gestures.
I still get the feeling Danny or Rose will pop up somehow. After all, they are two characters severely affected by the cybermen.25 June 2017 at 03:20 #59595lisa @lisa
I put my reaction on spoilers cause I thought some how my reaction might belong there ?
but WOW FOLKS! Everything about this one! Really!25 June 2017 at 03:22 #59596
@thane15 So, do you regard the Doctor and Bill’s reunion as a happy thing for them, talking about the good and bad things in his lives? He kept his promise to protect her within reason…and they could be together forever now, as I noted. She can still feel, and he can heal her pain by giving her all the wonders of the universe, and helping her family and friends understand what’s become of her, if/when they escape and defeat the evil.
But if he doesn’t want to do that, hopefully he’ll find a way to reverse this, or at least set her soul free. (@pedant, thanks for pointing out what might be Heather — I think you’re on to something)
It’s a shame how much was spoiled in advance about this episode, but it will be exciting to see how things play out in the finale.
The Doctor’s actions were foolhardy…but he acted out of love, all things considered, out of his noblest nature, out of his loneliness. To raise Missy up to his level…in the end, I’m not sure how else he could have tested her sincerity. He meant well…and I think Bill can forgive him that he couldn’t reach her, she understands. She did agree to the dangerous job when he was honest with her about whether she’d be absolutely safe or not. Their love will see them through. And maybe it will see Missy through as well…
And actions born out of love are never completely wicked, are they?25 June 2017 at 03:55 #59597winston @winston
That was a thrill ride for me from start to finish! The Doctor regenerating but fighting it,what! Then Missy and her assistants and some very funny lines and great banter. Oh that Missy, Doctor Who indeed. I was shocked when the blue man shot Bill leaving a gaping hole that you could see through. Great special effects.
I get sucked into the TV when this show is on so I had no idea that Razor was the Master till he revealed himself,what? He and Missy at the same time,now that is scary.
Poor Bill, that was terrible and so sad when she kept saying “I waited” and the Doctor looked devastated, wow is all I can say.
I need to watch this again and maybe again to catch all I missed while trying to figure out what I had just seen, and I am excited yet slightly scared of next weeks show.25 June 2017 at 03:56 #59598Anonymous @
Mmm, I managed to avoid any spoilers -other than what was ON the spoiler’s thread myself. Mainly any of the entertainment guides/youtubers etc which mean you don’t get a clear read of any of it. Thane’s seen nothing of it at all except the ‘next time’ and then he forgets in between the weeks!
On to what’s “good” or “bad” it’s more complex than that for me? He’s a complex individual and you can prioritise that which is positive in his life or not but going back to The Pilot and the Doctor’s opening lecture and the one after that helps explain how the Doctor tries to view the world. But he still has emotions and cloudy feelings and is sometimes lonely -hence the bravado. I don’t look at, or think about, the things in this ‘whouniverse’ such as the Doctor having “to inform her friends and family etc” -that’s outside the plot. I’m not doubting it ‘might’ happen but if you spin about, wondering how those things happen chronologically then I think you’re in for some psychological trouble?
If you try to create the whole backstory and ‘further to’ story for Bill, for Clara, for everyone, you’re tying yourself up in knots. I guess journal writing is one way of ‘dealing’ with those extra bits we don’t see? Then you can write, privately (coz I’m not a fanfiction person) about how those issues are rendered for the best? Then you can create a solution where you feel the character(s) and their loved ones receive the best possible ending. It’s still a fairy tale though as RL is troubled, pain-filled and murky -in between lie the good bits. Applying what we see on screen to our daily interactions is the best way of protecting and enlightening the drama in the most positive way.
Puro.25 June 2017 at 04:10 #59599winston @winston
@thane15 Not too many spoilers for me either so I had some great shocks and surprises.
By the way , how about the return of the Master’s beard? Is that the classic evil genius beard or what?25 June 2017 at 04:37 #59601geoffers @geoffers
i love the beard, too, but was also grinning madly when it (finally) dawned on me that he was razor, in disguise the whole time! that gave it such an old who vibe…
also made me wonder if his chosen name was “the master… of disguises!” and he’s just shortened it since? LOL25 June 2017 at 06:00 #59602CountScarlioni @countscarlioni
A very powerful episode that will take some digesting, but a few immediate thoughts to add….
With PC’s regeneration and the protests of “No, no, no!”, I thought there were definitely echoes of the of the Second Doctor’s strongly resisted regeneration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_xRkPUMHhc
@devilishrobby similar dilemma that he faced in Genesis of the Daleks
Good point & we got Genesis of the Cybermen hammered home by the Master at the very end. More on this to come?
Did the conversation over chips between the Doctor and Bill change the odds of a female thirteenth Doctor ??
Terrific directing job again by Rachel Talalay. The sense of menace that pervaded the episode was genuinely scary.25 June 2017 at 06:12 #59604lisa @lisa
If I were a young kid I’d have trouble sleeping tonight after this. It was dark and creepy.
Maybe BBC should have made one of those warnings at the beginning?
I’m stumped as to why Missy doesn’t remember and in fact I’m so totally stuck
on that its the only detail of this story I can really think about just now.
So for now I’m thinking either 1 -she does know or 2 she had a mind wipe ?25 June 2017 at 07:06 #59607GlasgowBoy @glasgowboy
I thought that episode was excellent. The writing and the acting was top notch. I have no idea about next week but would hazard a guess that Bill will be saved by the Doctor and it is this act that causes his death/regeneration. As much as I will miss Capaldi’s Doctor, I will also miss Gomez’s Missy. She has been outstanding throughout. Question – Does anyone know if we will see the new Doctor next week or if it will end with the start of the regeneration?
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