World Enough and Time

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  • #59526
    Avatar of CraigCraig @craig
    Emperor

    World Enough and Time - Doctor Who

    The start of the finale to the season. It’s written by Steven Moffat and directed by Rachel Talalay, who has done sterling work on Who with episodes such as last series double-bill finale – “Heaven Sent” and “Hell Bent”. It’s really very good, and includes some proper hide-behind-the-sofa moments.

    A huge spaceship trapped in the gravity well of a black hole, teeming with impossible lifeforms, harbours one of the Doctor’s most feared enemies… Mondasian Cybermen. Friendship drives the Doctor into the rashest decision of his life. Is there any way he can redeem his mistake? For once, time is the Time Lord’s enemy…

    Once again this takes its time to build the story steadily. Moffat and Talalay have done an incredible job. Can’t wait for next week already.

    #59533
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    It’s not too much of a downer, is it?  A ray of hope teased?

    #59539
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    who q&a link ?

    Seems to be working…

    #59540
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    Well that was fantastic. It seems the Master helped create the Mondasian cybermen, although I think that might be a red herring. We’ll have to wait til next week to find out Bill’s fate. I’m not yet convinced her death is inevitable.

    Lots of questions regarding the Missy/Master relationship and when and why the regeneration started. The Doctor is clearly trying to stop it from happening. I think there might be a clue here. One possibility is that this episode is happening earlier in the Doctor’s timelime than in either Bill or Missy’s. It looks to me that he has gone back into his own timeline in the past (I suggest Missy’s “are you alright Doctor” marks the point) and will somehow stop Bill ever going to the ship.

    #59541
    Avatar of DevilishrobbyDevilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Omg OmgOmg worked out the janitor wasn’t what he appeared about halfway through and guessed at the Master about 3/4 of the way thought Bill might just avoid full cyberization  though. Damn didn’t see her effectively being the first cyberman though. Really need a  second, third and fourth rewatching to really absorb the full ramifications and damn it looks like the Doctor’s regeneration is going to be triggered by something that happens next week judging from the beginning of the episode.

    #59542
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    Live Q&A peaked @ 7 thousand. 6 thousand saw the Pre-Telosian Cybermen strutting their stuff…

    q n a

    #59545
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed
    #59546

    @iusedtobethedoctor

    In one of your early post you said you take pride in being a grown up Doctor Who fan. Feel free to start.

    Also, capitalisation and complete sentences are your friend.

     

    #59547

    For a moment, when they were walking through the “town” I thought I caught s glimpse of Heather in a window.

    #59548
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick Hi — was following reactions on Twitter on my side of the pond.  😉

    But the Doctor can’t stop Bill from going to the ship, can he?  It’s a fixed point now, and he knows all too well he can’t change one.  If he could do that with his TARDIS, why didn’t he do that to save Clara?  Why not just get Bill to a proper hospital, clone her a new body?  Or remind her of her mum and shake off that metal skin with love? Kiss her, hug her, tell her to love love love and watch the miracle!  Come on Doctor!  :)

    #59549
    Avatar of iusedtobethedoctorrs99iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor

    ive seen the ending, bill dies, the doctor gets botox which goes wrong and he regenerates into jeremy corbyn, the master regenerates into theresa man, and they have an intergalactic debate, with the daleks in attendance, then isis appear and the shit hits the fan

    #59550
    Avatar of iusedtobethedoctorrs99iusedtobethedoctorrs99 @iusedtobethedoctor

    one thing i bet my hat on, and im not kidding on now

     

    i bet all im worth, that captain jack harkness returns next week

    #59551
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    I suppose ultimately, a point is only fixed if Moff wants it to be. I dont know if Bill survives, but since the closing scene was a tear from her eye, then it’s clear that she is still in there underneath the conversion. There is some hope then. Having written that, unlike the Raven ,where the episode never felt epic enough for me ti believe that Clara was gone forever. This episode (and the next one) are epic, so the hope may prove to be futile.

    One difference between Bill and Clara, is that Bill isnt dead, she’s on life support. One would imagine the technology would be available to the Doctor to under do the cyber-conversion and fix the damage to her heart and lungs (whether by cloning organs or some other form of technology). However, the Doctor has to get her back to level 1, off the ship and undo whatever the cyber control operating system now controls her (if that is the case with Mondas cybermen). That could well be a difficult task judging by the trailer.

    I remain convinced that the regeneration in the final Monk episode is real and that there is something a bit funny about Bill, but this isnt the place to discuss that. However, as we get closer to the final episodes, it’s becoming less clear what is going on (typical Moff !).

    #59552
    Avatar of HynesjHynesj @hynesj

    That was a purely spectacular episode, at times genuinely chilling and those final minutes were captivating.

    I think the planet the Doctor lands on at the start of the episode is Mondas at the time of ‘The Tenth Planet’ (a serial I have never watched but I am most certainly planning on watching it now). This gives weight to the theory that the Doctor will meet his first incarnation in the Christmas episode, kind of tying it to this two-parter. Perhaps the Doctor is suppressing his regeneration throughout the episode in a way similar to Eleven’s final scene.

    #59553

    @missrori @nick

    It is fixed in the way that the universe sees it to be fixed. As far as the universe was concerned the Doctor died at Lake Silencio. We know the truth is a tad more complex (ie it was the idea of the Doctor as superhero that died).

    I wonder if regeneration energy cures cyberisation.

    #59555
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick Well, as I said – if Bill is still there, then getting her out from under Cyber-control should be easy at least.  He tells her to shake it off, think of love, his love, her mum’s love.  And then they just take the lift.

    Or, maybe he realizes he doesn’t need to “fix” her.  He doesn’t judge by appearances.  He will always love her no matter what, and he knows she loves him.  Now he has a companion who won’t die, or betray him like Missy!  Think of those wonderful new adventures they can have…A silver lining in the cloud. (Sniff)

    #59556
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @hynesj

    That’s a clever idea: Landing in Antarctica at the time of that episode.

    I hope you enjoy the Tenth Planet. The Cybermen  are at their best there (along with Moonbase and Tomb of the Cybermen). That story goes wrong in the third episode (William Hartnell was ill), but apart from that it works really well as a story.

    #59557
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    Whilst you’re right about the Doctor and appearances, living as an (emotional) Cyberman is a a long way from living imo. I don’t think Moff would deliver that.

    #59558
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick But she will have the Doctor with her!  He can make her life so rich and wonderful, fill her heart with beauty to ease the pain, cocktails with Moses!  Wonders forever and ever.  She’ll be human as she ever was…alive…

    #59559
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @missrori

    :) tell me that when you’ve seen the episode (I guess you wont get the chance until tomorrow ?)

    #59560
    Avatar of stevethewhistlestevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Fully-converted cybermen arn’t supposed to show emotions.

    However, fully-converted Bill was crying her eyes out.

    Also note Nardole’s digs about The Doctor not showing emotions.

    I also wonder whether The Doctor will have the stronger bond wuth Missy or The Master.

    #59561
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @pedant

    I’m sure regen energy could repair Bill. I couldnt tell if the face in the window was Heather or not. Nice idea though :)

    #59562
    Avatar of HynesjHynesj @hynesj

    Also did anyone notice that Bill’s tear in the final moments helped make the traditional Cybermn eye? I think this is a brilliant moment in which we see that all Cyberman are in pain, crying, through the tear they share.

    #59563
    Avatar of DevilishrobbyDevilishrobby @devilishrobby

    The issue the Doctor has he’s now faced with a similar dilemma that he faced in Genesis of the Daleks he Could be potentially be affecting the timeline of the universe and incidentally his own time line. Bill is the first Monosian type Cyberman and if he stops their further development and either manages to decyberise Bill or even kill her( for the greater good) the cyber race might never come to pass as this ship is the birthplace of the cybermen. In addition to this from statements by Sims Master to Missy I get the feeling the Master has a greater part in the genesis of the CyberRace so if Missy interferes she’s also interfering with her own timeline as the Masters statement about worrying about his future incarnation firmly places Missy as post SimsMaster.

    #59565
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @nick I’ll see it in a few hours.  :)  I know what you’re trying to say, but the Doctor is a healer after all. He can find a way…

    And @devilishrobby has a point; he might not be able to fix her without causing a really bad paradox.  Maybe this was all meant to be.  So make the best of it…people who are disabled or suffer constant pain can still live wonderful lives if they are treated with love.  If she can feel, then all he needs to do is fill her life with happiness.  He can help her acclimate to a new life, help her family and friends on Earth understand.  She’s sad now, but the Doctor is here to help.  Brave heart!  😉

    #59566
    Avatar of stevethewhistlestevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Is this week’s David Bowie song “Fill Your Heart”?

    #59567
    Avatar of optimalloptimall @optimall

    Holy #$%^.

    That episode.

    WOW.

    Just……WOW

    #59568
    Avatar of stevethewhistlestevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Time to be Bonkers

    Could Bill’s emotional feeling (and  the ability to feel pain) cause a developement in cybernation where the cybermen become more empathic with people that they try and upgrade?

    #59569
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @devilishrobby

    Hi. I may be wrong, but I didnt see anything that made Bill the first Mondas Cyberman. There were lots of other Mondasians ahead of her who cybertised (apart from adding the pain/emotion nullifying tech). Also the Mondasians were colonists trying to escape from Mondas, so presumably they can also be created there as well anyway ?

    As for the Master’s role – we’ll have to wait and see.

    #59570
    Avatar of stevethewhistlestevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    Will Bill become Handles?

    PS

    If there is anybody out there whose physics is more up to date than mine, how does time dilation due to gravity combine with any tidal effects?

    #59572
    Avatar of thane15thane15 @thane15

    @steve-thorp

    Hey there! The old Purofilion here! How you be doin? It’s been a while since we’ve seen you around with your bonkers theories.

    As to physics? Hah! My boy, on whose account I play, Thane, might be able to shed more light on that….:)

    Me?  I just wanted to shout out a big  “halloooooo.”  Love the Handles idea….who wouldn’t love ‘handles’?

    Also I spy @tommo on the Forum too. Another “halloooo!”

    Puro

    #59574
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    @steve-thorp

    The gravitational side is quite well explained here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disk

    With time dilation, its a relative effect. As a particle spirals towards the singularity, a clock closer to the black hole will slow down relative to one further away, even though the particles themselves accelerate (and heat up giving off radiation) as they spiral towards the singularity. At each measurement point (the clock) time passes at the “normal’ rate for both observers.

    #59580
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    WE&T: A short summation –

    The ship is a little bit Beast Below, but it’s more Silent Running…

    Dr Who was in TARDIS.

    ‘Shnacks.’ ‘Hurry my stallion.’

    Dabbing is some kind of reference to smoking Cannabis. Moffat pleads ignorance…

    ‘It’s not an exercise – It’s a test!’ (Bobby Ewing in the shower???)

    ‘I should go back to blue.’   ‘Now don’t be a bitch!’

    Inertia lifts. I thinks this is a reference to the travelator method in ‘The Pirate Planet’  Either that or Bessie…

    A test run (A good idea)  ‘Pick a good one – Our usual Saturday’  ‘You pop like balloons.’

    (On hearts) ‘…Most important organ – No back up -It’s like a budget cut!’

    The Patients – They’ll snap you in half…

    patients

    ‘…Smurf…’  Psychic message = Wait for me.   Sonic pen!   Mr Razor.   PAIN…(etc.)

    The dials are the volume  for PAIN & KILL ME

    The Master’s theme kicks in @ Razor’s room (& again a little later).   Heart-Broken’   …Vending machine…’

    They’re spending years watching Dr Who on the telly!   ‘Superman Gravity.’   Cinderella mops the floor.

    The girl who waited.  ‘Die me!’   ‘Evolution is not fast enough.’   Solar Farms

    Silence.

    Razor’s burgling mask – A disguise within a disguise…   Won’t stop you feeling pain, will stop you caring.

    Cleverer = More Evil   Vital organ soup   (Giles Estram reprises his role…)

    ‘I’m very worried about my future.’   Genesis   I’ve been waiting…….

     

    #59581

    @wolfweed

    Dabbing is some kind of reference to smoking Cannabis. Moffat pleads ignorance…

     

    That would appear to be a minority view…

    #59583
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    @pedant   I had no idea it was such a contentious issue! That’ll teach me not to trust everything I Google…

    That video should be included on the series 10 boxset! Love it.

    Moffat is hereby pardoned & can roam free to finish episode 12!

    dab

    #59584
    Avatar of wolfweedwolfweed @wolfweed

    @Myself   They’re spending years watching Dr Who on the telly! 

    (Only it’s rather slow paced & in black & white)

    telly

    #59586
    Avatar of Charlie CookCharlie Cook @cookgroom

    With reference to the earlier reference to Bobby in the shower, I shall be very dusappointed if that is the answer – especially as they have already had a ‘it didn’t really happen’ moment earlier, in the Monks episodes.

    #59588
    Avatar of NyanNyan @madalyne11

    I thoroughly loved the episode! Can’t wait for next week’s finale.

    #59589
    Avatar of NickNick @nick

    One thing that I guess we’re meant to deduce, is that the 20 or so Humans (Mondasians) who left Deck 1 to the engine room to put the engines into reverse and never came back grew into a population of thousands (I assume the city was there already ?). Is this right ?

    The other thing that didnt make much sense (yet) was if the patients could use the lift to get to deck 1, why did the advance party of Mondasians disappear at the higher level ?

    Time dilation effect. I think I’ve got this right.

    The point of time dilation is that whilst going up the lift takes minutes in your personal point of reference, the elapsed time at either end of the ship would be very different. Thus a trip to deck 1 and back might take you 10 minutes as you see it, but years would pass at the bottom deck and only seconds on deck 1.

    For the crew that went to the engine room they might be there for 2 hours say. If they then returned directly to deck 1, it would have seemed like only 10s of seconds later for those that remained on deck 1.

    Therefore, the 20 or so crew would have had to decided to stayed on the lowest deck and never have attempted to return to deck 1 (why ?). If we are to believe that the Mondasian population are the descendants of the first 20 or so people, then it would have taken hundreds of years (thousands even) in lowest deck relative time to create a significant population. This might equate to 10s of days on deck 1 relative time.

    The relative time (in lowest deck relative time terms) taken for the return journey to deck 1 and back, must be tens or more likely many decades or more as measured at the lowest level of the ship. Therefore the patients that went up the lift to collect the remaining Human crew and then later Bill (and why use Patients ?) would reappear tens or hundreds of years later in lowest level time frame.

    That would mean the process to create the Cybermen from the Mondas population would have taken a very long time. This clearly wasn’t the case as the Surgeon and Bill passed only tens of years at the most.

    I hope that makes sense. It could explain why the Mondasian party to the higher level appeared never to return (but given that the patients are created, sent to deck 1 and return twice in the same window it would seem to be implausible).

    #59590
    Avatar of thane15thane15 @thane15

    @wolfweed @pedant

    …Our usual Saturday’  ‘You pop like balloons.’

    reminds me of Black Mirror’s San Junipero.

    #59591
    Avatar of RorySmithRorySmith @rorysmith

    Somebody snuck it on YouTube. I got to watch before it was flagged. Lol

    I don’t have the words. Bill😭

    Missy reacting to her former self was amazing. Michelle is awesome at those little gestures.

    I still get the feeling Danny or Rose will pop up somehow. After all, they are two characters severely affected by the cybermen.

    #59595
    Avatar of lisalisa @lisa

    I put my  reaction on spoilers cause I thought some how my reaction might belong there ?

    but  WOW FOLKS!   Everything about this one!  Really!

    #59596
    Avatar of MissRoriMissRori @missrori

    @thane15  So, do you regard the Doctor and Bill’s reunion as a happy thing for them, talking about the good and bad things in his lives?  He kept his promise to protect her within reason…and they could be together forever now, as I noted.  She can still feel, and he can heal her pain by giving her all the wonders of the universe, and helping her family and friends understand what’s become of her, if/when they escape and defeat the evil.

    But if he doesn’t want to do that, hopefully he’ll find a way to reverse this, or at least set her soul free.  (@pedant, thanks for pointing out what might be Heather — I think you’re on to something)

    It’s a shame how much was spoiled in advance about this episode, but it will be exciting to see how things play out in the finale.

    The Doctor’s actions were foolhardy…but he acted out of love, all things considered, out of his noblest nature, out of his loneliness.  To raise Missy up to his level…in the end, I’m not sure how else he could have tested her sincerity.  He meant well…and I think Bill can forgive him that he couldn’t reach her, she understands.  She did agree to the dangerous job when he was honest with her about whether she’d be absolutely safe or not.  Their love will see them through.  And maybe it will see Missy through as well…

    And actions born out of love are never completely wicked, are they?

    #59597
    Avatar of winstonwinston @winston

    That was a thrill ride for me from start to finish! The Doctor regenerating but fighting it,what! Then Missy and her assistants and some very funny lines and great banter. Oh that Missy, Doctor Who indeed. I was shocked when  the blue man  shot Bill leaving a gaping hole that you could see through. Great special effects.

    I get sucked into the TV when this show is on so I had no idea that Razor was the Master till he revealed himself,what? He and Missy at the same time,now that is scary.

    Poor Bill, that was terrible and so sad when she kept saying “I waited” and the Doctor looked devastated, wow is all I can say.

    I need to watch this again and maybe again to catch all I missed while trying to figure out what I had just seen, and I am excited yet slightly scared of next weeks show.

    #59598
    Avatar of thane15thane15 @thane15

    @missrori

    Mmm, I managed to avoid any spoilers -other than what was ON the spoiler’s thread myself. Mainly any of the entertainment guides/youtubers etc which  mean you don’t get a clear read of any of it. Thane’s seen nothing of it at all except the ‘next time’ and then he forgets in between the weeks!

    On to what’s “good” or “bad” it’s more complex than that for me? He’s a complex individual and you can prioritise that which is positive in his life or not but going back to The Pilot and the Doctor’s opening lecture and the one after that helps explain how the Doctor tries to view the world. But he still has emotions and cloudy feelings and is sometimes lonely -hence the bravado. I don’t look at, or think about,  the things in this ‘whouniverse’ such as the Doctor having “to inform her friends and family etc” -that’s outside the plot. I’m not doubting it ‘might’ happen but if  you spin about, wondering how those things happen chronologically then I think you’re in for some psychological trouble?

    If you try to create the whole backstory and ‘further to’ story for Bill, for Clara, for everyone, you’re tying yourself up in knots. I guess journal writing is one way of ‘dealing’ with those extra bits we don’t see? Then you can write, privately (coz I’m not a fanfiction person) about how those issues are rendered for the best? Then you can create a solution where you feel the character(s) and their loved ones receive the best possible ending. It’s still a fairy tale though as RL is troubled, pain-filled and murky -in between lie the good bits. Applying what we see on screen to our daily interactions is the best way of protecting and enlightening the drama in the most positive way.

    Kindest,

    Puro.

    #59599
    Avatar of winstonwinston @winston

    @thane15  Not too many spoilers for me either so I had some great shocks and surprises.

    By the way , how about the return of the Master’s beard? Is that the classic evil genius beard or what?

    #59601
    Avatar of geoffersgeoffers @geoffers

    @winston

    i love the beard, too, but was also grinning madly when it (finally) dawned on me that he was razor, in disguise the whole time! that gave it such an old who vibe…

    also made me wonder if his chosen name was “the master… of disguises!” and he’s just shortened it since? LOL

    #59602
    Avatar of CountScarlioniCountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    A very powerful episode that will take some digesting, but a few immediate thoughts to add….

    With PC’s regeneration and the protests of “No, no, no!”, I thought there were definitely echoes of the of the Second Doctor’s strongly resisted regeneration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_xRkPUMHhc

    @devilishrobby similar dilemma that he faced in Genesis of the Daleks 

    Good point & we got Genesis of the Cybermen hammered home by the Master at the very end. More on this to come?

    Did the conversation over chips between the Doctor and Bill change the odds of a female thirteenth Doctor ??

    Terrific directing job again by Rachel Talalay. The sense of menace that pervaded the episode was genuinely scary.

     

    #59604
    Avatar of lisalisa @lisa

    If I were a young kid I’d have trouble sleeping tonight after this.   It was dark and creepy.

    Maybe BBC should have made one of those warnings at the beginning?

    I’m stumped as to why Missy doesn’t remember  and in fact  I’m so totally stuck

    on that its the only detail of this story I can really think about just now.

    So for now I’m thinking either 1 -she does know  or 2 she had a mind wipe ?

     

    #59607
    Avatar of GlasgowBoyGlasgowBoy @glasgowboy

    I thought that episode was excellent. The writing and the acting was top notch. I have no idea about next week but would hazard a guess that Bill will be saved by the Doctor and it is this act that causes his death/regeneration. As much as I will miss Capaldi’s Doctor, I will also miss Gomez’s Missy. She has been outstanding throughout. Question – Does anyone know if we will see the new Doctor next week or if it will end with the start of the regeneration?

     

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