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@midnyt @lisa @mudlark

I don’t think the Doctor deliberately left the sonic glasses on the tardis panel.  He sort of throw them out of anger and despair.

I think the Doctor intended to use it on Clara up to the point which Ashildr and Clara change his mind.  There is a long pause before the line of “better than a coin toss”. This is the point the Doctor decides to erase his memory of Clara.  The Doctor can simply hold it backwards to use the neuron block on himself or change to human non-compatible (the doctor can think of something clever.).

@bluesqueakpip

Sorry, I am changed my mind 180 degree after re-watching and a bit thinking.  Face the Raven, Heaven Sent and Hell Bent are probably the best companion sent off in NuWho or even in Doctor Who as a whole.

The most important reason why I want Clara to die is to allow us audience to see the Doctor in agony and in madness when he losses his closest friend. Moffat showed us that in Heaven Sent and Hell Bent with Capaldi’s oscar-worthy acting and Talalay’s amazing directing.

I thought bring back Clara back again will feel cheap yet it is not there are consequence to her death experience.  I no think that the consequence should not limit itself to negative effects bought to the characters.  I think most NuWho companion departure just stay at his point.  Yet Moffat takes it to the next level by making the Doctor, Clara and maybe Ashildr too grow from Clara’s death in alley.  The Doctor finally ends his obsession of Clara ( from Eleventh), Clara accepting losses (smiling and calmly talk to the Doctor in the Dinner [compare it with Before the Flood ” Not with me! Die with whoever comes after me. You do not leave me.”] , Ashildr learns how to appreciate the beauty in things perishing. (It is no longer only about [me], Ashildr cares about other things [nice progression]).  “Wow” This is character development hidden very subtly in the script.  I think three of them become better person after the experience.

Hence, lastly this ending matches the theme of the Impossible Girl and the Doctor.  The Doctor manages to save Clara(giving her hope), Ashildr ( saving her from her death coz universe is ending) and himself from becoming the hybrid in the prophecy.  Clara Oswald is just magical like the opening of the episode. Clara Oswald has become the Doctor, there are just numerous references to that.  The manner she talks, the crazy amount of parallels (Clara/ Eleventh in that very diner cheated their supposedly certain death) , and at some point Twelve said “Clara Who”. Clara Oswald is a legend in Doctor Who.

I probably understand why Moffat refuses to kill characters off. “Always assume you are going to live/win”.  If you have a single breath left you still have “wriggle room” to change it.  Doctor Who is trying to bring hope in a dire situation.  But death is just it, nothing.

I begins to like bitter-sweet Moffat brings.  This series is written in a very cohesive manner, that requires rewatching, paying close attention and savoring to understand what is being told.

For instance,
MISSY: Since always. Since the Cloister Wars. Since the night he stole the moon and the President’s wife. Since he was a little girl. One of those was a lie. Can you guess which one?

Missy told the truth. the lie is the doctor was a little girl.

PS the Doctor and Clara is just the most platonic relationship.

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@puroandson

Thx for answering my questions.  Those are the right answers which I find out when rewatching the episode with subtitles.  Still it is rather unsatisfying since I am expecting something more.  I think is Moffat’s writing has a bit of post-mordernism characteristic in it – being quite open-ended and deconstructing.

I still believe Clara is immortal now the last thing she needs to become the Doctor.  Remember in Heaven Sent, the loop theory is being studied.  Things in a room goes back to the original place if left unattended.  If Clara is hurt, time will heals her – her cells/atoms will return back to their original location if enough time past.  I think her immortality is very similar to Captain Jack.  They dying again will generate a paradox which the universe correct by reverting their deaths.

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@misterhoo
Urgency of death matters.  There is a huge difference between having 5 mins to live to 5 years to live.   People tends to care less if things happen in the distant future.

I also doubt that she will die.

I think Clara can only die when she goes back to the fixed point in Face the Raven.  I am not sure if it is fixed anymore.  Only Twelve witness Clara’s Death, yet Twelve forgets about Clara.

In the case if it is a fixed point in time, Clara will unable to die or age before that point.  Clara now does not metabolize since she does not need breathing and heart-beating.  She is more immortal than Ashildr.  Hence, if the Timelord can’t catch Clara, she can travel in the Tardis forever.

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Whoops, forgot to mention that, Clara last words to the Doctor is beautifully phrased.

“Run you clever boy and be a Doctor”

First half is referring to her adventures with Eleventh Doctor – always running, no idea why they are going.

Second half is a nice twist as the Doctor could not remember her anymore (hmm, I think the words on the blackboard in Listen  are probably written by Clara too).

“Be a Doctor” concludes her influence on Eleventh and Twelve.

Clara has become the inner subconscious moral teacher of Twelve.  When face with perils and important decisions Clara will always be with Twelve in his storm room.  This adds depth in Twelve seeking for dangers and adventures – to have a tiny glimpse of Clara.  See it in this way is just beautiful.  The storm room concept is just brilliant, I can’t emphasize more.

I still think Clara should have died.

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I just woke up, and will rewatch it later in the day.

@puroandson
Nice catch of Don’t Stop Me Now cover in the dinner.  I think there are a lot of little references to the adventures of the Doctor and Clara in this episode or in this series, for instance, the barn to the Day of the Doctor and Listen (soldier with no gun too), Cold War references at some point, “we are all stories in the end” in Robots of Sherwood (A very nice touch of making Clara into a story/ or the Doctor’s moral side in Heaven sent that inspire him to do the right thing.  This way despite Clara’s departure, she will still leave inside Twelve Doctor).  This is a nice way to thank Jenna Coleman’s three years of contributions to the show.

@supernumerary
I too find it a bit anti-climaxing  and unsatisfying.  I agree that they should have left Clara dead.  However, once Moffat decided to bring back Clara this episode, there is nothing more suitable than this ending since the Doctor spent 4.5 billion years trying to save Clara ( a nice parallel to Clara echo trying to save the Doctor(s)).  Anything less will create riot among the Doctor Who/ Clara fans.

@starla
Yes, it fixes the continuity problem with Orson Pink.  At the same time it creates more issues.  For example are Clara Echo really Echos and not Prime.  I mean Clara with her own Tardis can travel back in time to save the Doctor at various points.  She might be pretending haven’t met the Doctor in Snowman and didn’t die ( since she have no life signal.)  One problem is how to explain Asylum of the Daleks, Tardis in the form of a Dalek ?? LOL

Plus there are so many unanswered questions, confession dial(how it comes into possession of the Doctor), gallifrey (where is it, how it returns), Ashildr (who is she collabrating with Missy or another Timelord?)  and Clara (why is she so impossible and why Missy chose her.)

—–

The Clara exit is very Clara-ry ( it is just all over the place).  It is innovative but it sort of undermine all the character progress of her development in Series 9.  Her acceptance of her death in Face the Raven is beautiful and mature, and this episode just undoes it all.  I think the exits in Death in Heaven and Last Christmas are just more superior than this one.

Clara Who is now a nice summary of all the characteristic of NuWho.

Doctor-wise
She steals the Tardis and runs away from Gallifrey. First Doctor
She works with the UNIT. Second Doctor
She says “Reverse the polarity”. Third Doctor’s iconic phrase.
(Please fill the rest. I have only watched a episode of Classic Who)
She saves his companion by sacrificing himself (sort of). Ninth Doctor.
She causes the memory lost of her closest friend. Tenth Doctor.
She has to face her death eventually or a friend cheeses her death (Trenzalore). Eleventh Doctor.
She is the apprentice of the Twelve Doctor.

Companion-wise
Like Rose, she receives her own Tardis (wait there was delected). So, in a vaguer sense, she gets a souvenir from the Doctor ;).
Like Martha, she chooses her way of departure – retaining the memories of adventure with the Doctor. ( Also, it is a nice touch in the Girl who Died that depicting the Doctor could not think of losing Clara.  Maybe Twelve losing memories of Clara is for his own good.)
Like Donna, she losses her closet friend.
Like Amy, she begins her life without the Doctor.

—

Random thoughts, BBC can really do a Paternoster Gang and Clara Who Spinoff.  It will be quite (a-hem) interesting character relation between Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Ashildr. This will be just very weird. But I bet every episode will pass the Bechdel Test for sure.  XD

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@gothamcelt @delta

I am sorry to hear that you guys didn’t enjoy the episode.  This episode is a bit metaphorical.  I believe the very key part is the Doctor enters room 12 and remembers all of his previous encounters.  The Doctor wants to give up and asks Clara why he has to continue like this.  Yet, in the end, he still stands to his principals not revealing the secrets about the hybrid for 2 billion years.  He is faced with lots and lots of sufferings and failures.  Nevertheless he persists.  A simple word/concept, but can everyone understand its gravity and implications.

This episode is trying to explore how this quality makes an impact and to tell the life story of the Doctor.  The Doctor throughout different incarnations(symbolized by his clones)  has faced threats (the veil) and losses/suffering (the pain/ torture).  Still those experience(2 billion years in the dial) has not changed a single bit about his belief (escaping this hellish confession dial) – the Doctor saves people, and believes there are good in men.

This alone makes me admire Twelfth, and makes me think twice before giving up.

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To me, this episode is an instant classic. It is unique, atmospheric and emotional. This is Peter Capaldi’s best performance, most doctor-defining, and most memorable episode to date.  This episode demonstrates (to Gatiss in particular)the way you play with new ideas in DW.

First, some nit-picking with continuity issues in the episode. Time-stop during confession is not consistent. Room returning to its original state has some exception cases – Room 12, Clara’s portraits and the teleport room.

To the positives in the episode (there are just too many), I just love the Doctor’s storm room depicting how the Doctor thinks and solves dangerous situations. It remembers me of the Eleventh Hour and Sherlock’s mind palace, yet it is more refined in the episode.  Interacting with Clara inside the room is just an extremely clever idea when she is dead and the Doctor is trapped in the Confession dial alone.

The imagery of old castle, skulls and the veil create astounding impending doom atmosphere. The veil is just very scary despite moving very slowly. It makes me jump twice – once at the door and the other at the grave.  It is safe to announce that the veil is the best monster in series 9.  I also like how the production team finds the right balance for a kid show without being too dark and bloody. Plus the moving castle(like the staircase in Hogwarts) is a nice touch in adding complexity to the stationary environment.

This episode gets better on re-watch. Brilliant acting from Peter Capaldi for capturing my attention even on re-watch. The very best bit of the episode is Twelve keeps on trying even though he has to endure the pain repeatedly and go through the same process again and again. Never cruel or cowardly; Never give in and never give up. He soldiers on and lives on to the expectation of Clara – being the Doctor. Only the Doctor can stick to his belief that he will win in the end even in this dire situation. There are moments I ask why Twelve is still trying – it is almost impossible and too painful to continue. The most painful part is not hitting the diamond with his fist or his death inflicted by the veil.  It is the long course of climbing back to the teleport room when he is dying. He knows that climbing back to the teleport room will only brings more pain and suffering which last for eternity, and he still does it as it is the right thing to do.  I am just so touched by his choice. (I recalled a speech about tiny differences/choices separate great people(heroes), the ordinary and the villains.) Twelve has just become of my favorite Doctor for his perseverance. There is also a nice parallel between the Doctor and the veil. They simply will not stop.

Lastly, it is a very well-written script by Steven Moffat. The monologues of Twelve are poetic and utterly beautiful. It fits perfectly in the the Doctor Who genre – something about time, something old (old culture, stories – the Grimm’ fairy tales), something new(bring them into the context of modern sci-fi and magical nature of Doctor Who), something borrowed (ideas- Christopher Nolan’s Prestige(2006) and others) and something blue (it is sad and it brings hope at the very same time). This is the exact reason why I love the show. Steven Moffat please keeps on writing for the show even when you leaves as head-writer. NuWho is not the same without him.

The third question was, “How many seconds are there in the time of eternity.”

The boy answered, “In Lower Pomerania is the Diamond Mountain, which is two miles high, two miles wide, and two miles deep; every hundred years a little bird comes and sharpens its beak on it, and when the whole mountain is worn away by this, then the first second of eternity will be over.”

The king liked all the answers and took the shepherd boy home.

Grimm’s Fairy Tale (https://111booksfor2011.wordpress.com/tag/grimms-fairy-tales-the-shepherd-boy/)

Steven Moffat why are you capable of writing such beautiful stories out of ordinary things?
Random Thoughts
I think the Doctor cannot die in the confession dial.  Dying might be a easy way out or simply automatic restart the process.  The doctor crawling back to the teleport room act as an interference to the Bootstrap Paradox or breaking the reset system (automatic room-service).
This episode is the making of the Doctor’s confession dial.  This series definitely has some timey-wimey stuff that makes Twelve in the magician’s apprentice in possession of the confession dial.  The confession dial electrifies Clara because she is dead in the perspective of the confession dial time line ( it creates a paradox.), although there may be some other reasons why Ashildr and Missy does not get shocked.
Veil is a childhood nightmare for the doctor.  Are there any possibility that this is the reason why the young Doctor is crying in the barn in Listen when Clara comforts him with the Fear is a superpower speech?  If so, Clara will have some great importance in the next episode.
And Ashildr.  I was planning to write a small piece of article comparing the influence of the Doctor on Clara and Ashildr (and may be touching a bit of Davros).  Looks like it needs to wait since Ashildr is appearing in the next episode.

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Ok, my perspective on Clara’s Death.

Yes, it is plainer than what I have expected.  After some thinking, I think this is a nice way to bring closure to her story as it explores her character, the Doctor and her relationship with the Doctor.

First, Clara is always selfless, willing to sacrifice herself for others ( i.e. Asylum of the Daleks and the Name of the Doctor).  It might be due to her empathy or her lack of connections with others.  In this episode,  it is more of the latter as Clara doesn’t even mention anything about her family before her death.  Clara experiencing  the passing of her mother and Danny Pink has lost her sense of “home” and  has become detached to the world like the Doctor.  Clara, like the Doctor, are people that are so emotionally scared by the loss of close ones that they use adventure as a form of escape to their cruel reality.

DOCTOR: […]One day, the memory of that will hurt so much that I won’t be able to breathe, and I’ll do what I always do. I’ll get in my box and I’ll run and I’ll run, in case all the pain ever catches up.  (The Girl Who Died)

I think Twelve see this problem with Clara and propose that she finds someone in Under the Lake.  Yet, Clara refuses, as she thinks that the connection with the Doctor is good enough for her and she doesn’t need anyone else (maybe because of going through the pain if she loses another one).  She is probably right, but the problem is both the Doctor and Clara are both traumatized in the similar way.  They can’t heal each other.   From Last Christmas onward, Clara has become suicidal.  She is going to die one way or the other.

Clara dying in a boring and uninteresting way shows both the nobility and the danger of being the Doctor.  First, it is parallel to Danny Pink’s Death in Dark Water.  Secondly, it is obvious that Clara is turning more and more like the Doctor.  I think she has truly become Doctor Clara in this episode.  There are lots of parallel in the things the Doctor and Clara does.  One of the most notable thing is Clara willing take risk to save Rigsy, her companion.  Both, the Doctor and Clara have the duty of care towards their companion.  It reminds me of the Parting of the Ways which Ninth sacrifice himself to save Rose.  Her death also resembles Tenth dying for Wilf.  However, some may argue that Clara is stupid and being incompetent.  Yes she might be.  Nevertheless, I see her death as result of the lack of luck.  The Doctor taking risk actually carries immense dangers which we audience tends to forget.  In the Mummy on the Orient Express, the Doctor takes the place of Masie to face the Mummy.  The Doctor might have died just like Clara does in the episode.  I think Clara’s death due to her mis-calculation has huge impact in revealing the nature of the Doctor.

Her calm death reflects the nature of their friendship – the Doctor needs Clara more than Clara need the Doctor.   In her final moments, Clara is comforting the Doctor as he was her child, telling him what to do without her.  Clara is as if a mother/nanny that deeply cares about the Doctor.  I just feel like the whole purpose of Clara Oswald is to save the Doctor both physically and psychologically.  She is like an angel that falls from heaven just to stand at the side of the Doctor.

Clara: I don’t know where I am. I don’t know where I’m going, or where I’ve been. I was born to save the Doctor, but the Doctor is safe now. I’m the Impossible Girl, and my story is done. (the Name of the Doctor)

I will be very unsatisfied if there are no stories behind Clara’s origin in the following three episodes.  Clara is just too perfect for the Doctor to be true.

Emotionally, I like this plain exit as it contrast hugely to Rose’s, Donna’s and Amy’s dramatic exits.  It is new that Clara has become more of a broken person after staying along side with the Doctor.  Yet, this is how she become a soulmate to the Doctor.  I will definitely miss the Doctor and Clara Oswald in the TARDIS when the series ends.

Ps. Sorry, for grammatical mistakes. Didn’t have time to proofread. I have spend to much time writing this already.

 

 

[Avaris @replies]

Theories
@juniperfish
Speaking of roses, Clara in series 7 is heavily connected with the imagery of roses. There is always red in her apparel; Oswin has a rose on her ear; Victorian Clara work at the rose and crown.  I always think that Rose/ Bad Wolf has arrange the meeting of Clara and the Doctor.  I think there are still something mysterious about Clara, like her origin and how she survives entering the Doctor’s timeline. I hope those are explained in the coming three episodes.

@serahni
what happened to Clara? Put inside a stasis pod?
Nice catch.  This fits into juniperfish’s sleeping beauty theory.  The statis pod might be the glass coffin(wait that’s snow white whatever).  However, I doubt Clara will come back, since her prince – Danny is dead too.

I think that the stasis pod is used to contain Clara’s body so that it won’t become the energy scar thing we seen in the Name of the Doctor.  Since Clara and her echo’s are connected, and Clara is presence in the events of Day of the Doctor, “the track of her tears” may lead to where Gallifrey is in some timey-wimey way.

DOCTOR: Time travel is damage. It’s like a tear in the fabric of reality. That is the scar tissue of my journey through the universe. My path through time and space from Gallifrey to Trenzalore. (from the Name of the Doctor)

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@nerys we have no idea Osgood is human or Zygon.

The reason there is no name and other information of the dead Osgood is probably that the UNIT don’t want to leak out any information about Operation Double out to the public.  It will be quite bizarre when the alive Osgood visit the dead Osgood grave.  This may raise some questions and induce some background checking which may uncover the whole thing.

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@jphamlore

Now imagine this alternative scenario:  Kate Stewart’s Zygon counterpart contacts her about trouble between the Zygon generations.  Osgood allows herself to be brainwashed with whatever Kate Stewart wants the younger Zygons to learn and pretends to go off reservation to Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  And what was Clara doing while her phone was ringing while being called by the Doctor?  She was being debriefed and possibly allowing herself to be brainwashed as well by Kate Stewart.   By not answering her phone, she alerts the Doctor not to trust her.  So he doesn’t.  Wouldn’t it be wild if the so-called President of the World’s plane was actually the Tardis with a repaired chameleon circuit?  The Doctor never expected Clara to go back to the Tardis to hide out.

Nice theory. I can see the second part of the story resolving this way.  Clara maybe coming back from the Black Archive.  In that way, her dressing, motorbike and 127 missed call will make sense.  Kate and Clara might be working on something for the crisis before they are brainwashed when they left Black Archive so that they could play alone to the Zygon’s plan.

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@soundworld
Back to hybrids.  The question could be, are they a good or a bad thing ?

On the subject of hybrids, I see them as the consequences of the Doctor’s decision.  Up-till this episode,  there is a hybrid in every single story in series 9 due to the Doctor’s choice.  In Magician’s & Witch’s, a dalek/timelord hybrids were created due to the Doctor’s compassion and kindness. In Lake & Flood, although none wass directly created as a result of the story plot, Clara, a human/timelord hybrid (owning to the fact that she is becoming more and more like the Doctor), plays an important part in the story and her morality is lightly questioned by the Doctor and Cass.  The hybridization of Clara is the result of the constant influence of Twelve and his re-invitation to her in Last Christmas. In Girl & Woman, Ashildr was accidentally given immortality because the Doctor does not want to lose people anymore.  The twin Osgood is the consequence of the Doctor(s) wanting a peace solution in the Day of the Doctor.

Back to the question.  Up to this moment, we audience are shown that hybrid are more capable of doing bad than good.  Hybridization of Dalek didn’t turn them from killing machine to become nice Dalek ( but you cannot tell since their translation matrix censor their speech.)  Hybridization of Clara & Ashildr just made them more detach to the world and make them adrenaline seeking junkie.

However, I believe hybrids have the ability to demonstrate good too.  They are just not shown yet.  Maybe the good Dalek in  Into the Dalek being able to reflect on its action is due to hybridization.

Perhaps, the more important point is not to prejudge.  Like Missy said in Witch’s “Everyone’s a bit of both. Everyone’s a hybrid.” 

And yes, Missy’s prophecy came true. “The friend inside the enemy, the enemy inside the friend.”
Clara inside Dalek, Zygon takes Clara’s shape.

Hybridizing Osgood has definitely change her.  She is now the embodiment of the Human-Zygon peace.  Really can’t tell she is good or not.  However, I don’t like her withholding information about her specie from the Doctor despite out of good intention.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  Avaris. Reason: Forget about Osgood

[Avaris @replies]

Hi, new member here.  I am not a English native speaker, so I apologize for my grammatical errors in advance.  Some things about myself.  I have started watching Doctor Who since NuWho is released.  Favorite episode: Midnight.  Favorite Companions Clara, Oswin, Miss Oswald LOL.

I have been reading the posts on series 9 in this forum for a while. I really enjoyed the bonkers theories, tiny observations, connection to Norse mythology and tarots (both of which I have no understanding.)

So thoughts on the episode.

This is the strongest first-parter of the series.  The episode had a very nice atmosphere.  It was tense. The threat felt real.  It reminded me of Russel T Davies’ episodes.

The cliffhanger is nicely done.  No preview is a nice touch.

Details of Zygon Clara is good and subtle.  Copy of Clara is better than original as usual.  I just love Evil Clara.  I really hope there is Evil Clara vs Missy in the Finale.

The last scene of the episode is a exact copy of the anime Fate/ Zero which the apprentice killed his master for the greater good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y0utm58pUw

I am not sure that this is foreshadowing something in the Series.

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