Face The Raven
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Dentarthurdent 5 months, 2 weeks ago.
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22 November 2015 at 08:00 #47486
@jphamlore – more like Icarus and Daedalus, actually.
Okay, I’m out of denial and now into furious anger.
Whether or not Clara is actually dead, the production team has two episodes for me to make some dramatic sense out of this. Otherwise it’s going to be a million-and-one viewers lost for series 10.
I’d disagree that this ending was in any way inevitable for Clara; the ‘inevitable’ ending for someone trying to be like an AG Doctor is to knowingly get yourself killed to save someone else. What she got, instead, was to be Icarus; a cautionary tale about flying too high and trying to be a hero too hard.
The woman who saved the Doctor AND Gallifrey deserved better than that. And if Sarah Dollard has seriously written a script that says ‘Don’t try to be the Doctor, girls, you’ll only get yourself hurt. Your job is to be the companion,’ then she ought to be ashamed. However well that appalling message is written.
But as I said last night – I don’t believe it. It feels ‘wrong’.
It feels like a story.
22 November 2015 at 08:27 #47487@bluesqueakpip: I don’t think Clara died because she ought not to have imitated the Doctor; she died because she misinterpreted the Doctor. Because a major part of the Doctor is finding the truth and acting on it. Clara thought she could out-clever Ashildr and the Doctor by withholding information and thus not dispelling her ignorance, and thus she died.
I am reminded of some stories of Percival’s quest for the Holy Grail where he endures quite a few more trials because at a certain point he asks no questions about why a certain procession is happening.
And I do agree for modern companions the show has made sure to have a revisit of their departures to make them somewhat happier.
22 November 2015 at 08:31 #47488@purofilion
I’m not sure why I deserved to be attacked like that. Especially since people here seem to take pride in the fact that this is a forum where people are nice to eachother, I feel quite hurt by your suggestion that you want to spit on me, simply because I mistakenly used the word “we” where I indeed maybe should have used “I”.
If this is how you treat newbies, I don’t think you’ll see me here again.
22 November 2015 at 08:47 #47489@geronimo please stick around, that was a very unusual and isolated incident I feel, and @purofilion has apologised (and seemingly been banned)
hope to see you both back on here again soon!
22 November 2015 at 09:53 #47492I personally loved the episode and one thing that has been somewhat overlooked was Coleman’s superb acting throughout the episode. For instance when she was dying I felt like she was real and she was leaving us. This is one of the reasons why I personally don’t want her to return because it would feel too cheesy and unreal but her dying like this to me seems perfect because now she is with Danny.
Then again I’d like to refer to mine and @pedant ‘s theory on Clara not exiting the dalek in S9E2 (maybe there still is another Clara somewhere)
I looked through the tarot cards and couldn’t find any with a raven on but then again I might be mistaken so if anyone would like to correct me I would love it 🙂
@countscarlioni You’re spot of the story arc between flatline and face the raven is simply superb thank you for spotting this 🙂
@craig and @juniperfish When I look at the picture of the Tardis at the end and I see the roses on the pavement connected to the roses on the tardis I can’t but help think of flatline
@geronimo Don’t go. I’m a newbie here and I’ve only been posting since series 9 but I’ve loved it here and was quite shocked at the way you were treated. Nothing like this has happened while I was here. But it is your decision but give it a while cause it is really interesting here 🙂
22 November 2015 at 10:10 #47493I’ve just watched and I don’t know what to think about that. Clara’s death seemed so pointless. She died because of some stupid agreement and a rash decision and didn’t even save anyone. After all she had done and how she had done that. I don’t know whose fate is more tragic, Oswin or Clara. Oswin’s fate was surely more acceptable. And Doctor just stood there and watched. But he was great. I think it’s not over yet. Going to rewatch.
So there was no big mystery of Clara’s capabilities.
22 November 2015 at 10:23 #47494My brain might have just clicked as to why last weeks episode was important. It was the hint that we were being provided of Clara’s death. Because Clara was acting like The Doctor, she’d learnt the first rule to being him, the rule that Missy told her: If you believe you will win then you are more likely to. But last week was the reminder that it isn’t a guarantee. Last week The Doctor lost, despite that self-confidence. This week Clara was in his place, doing everything as he has been known to do, but she lost, because sometimes believing you will win just isn’t enough.
22 November 2015 at 10:54 #47495A few thoughts
liked the stall selling scarves ‘As Worn by Sherlock Holmes’
Why is the TARDIS in a different place from where the Doctor left it?
Some of the comments on here are well out of order. It’s a forum. Not only are people allowed to have different opinions, they are supposed to have different opinions. Furthermore, one of the main reasons folk use this forum is to experience those opinions. Some folk need to calm down.
liked this episode. Thought it was a lot better than the previous one. Don’t have a clue what will happen next.
22 November 2015 at 11:08 #47496Theories
@juniperfish
Speaking of roses, Clara in series 7 is heavily connected with the imagery of roses. There is always red in her apparel; Oswin has a rose on her ear; Victorian Clara work at the rose and crown. I always think that Rose/ Bad Wolf has arrange the meeting of Clara and the Doctor. I think there are still something mysterious about Clara, like her origin and how she survives entering the Doctor’s timeline. I hope those are explained in the coming three episodes.@serahni
what happened to Clara? Put inside a stasis pod?
Nice catch. This fits into juniperfish’s sleeping beauty theory. The statis pod might be the glass coffin(wait that’s snow white whatever). However, I doubt Clara will come back, since her prince – Danny is dead too.I think that the stasis pod is used to contain Clara’s body so that it won’t become the energy scar thing we seen in the Name of the Doctor. Since Clara and her echo’s are connected, and Clara is presence in the events of Day of the Doctor, “the track of her tears” may lead to where Gallifrey is in some timey-wimey way.
DOCTOR: Time travel is damage. It’s like a tear in the fabric of reality. That is the scar tissue of my journey through the universe. My path through time and space from Gallifrey to Trenzalore. (from the Name of the Doctor)
22 November 2015 at 12:10 #47498Yes, I’d forgotten about Clara’s association with roses in the first series in which she appeared. I think that motif was definitely designed to spark speculation about her potential connection to Rose, now that Moff and co realise that what fuels engagement (for many) is spec. It paid off in that the Moment (in the form of Rose as Bad Wolf) ensured that Clara was there when War Doctor faced the big red button. Might it pay off further? Well it would be lovely if we found out the Doctor had somehow been traveling with Rose/Ten’s daughter, Clara. Which would make her his daughter of sorts. Somehow, I don’t think that’s it.
But, I’ll certainly be surprised if we don’t find out more about Clara before the series ends.
@Purofilion
Glad you apologised. I can see how the tough health situation you are dealing with must colour your perspective – sympathies for that. I hope the latest hospital visit isn’t too rough.
Losing a companion is always upsetting, but I don’t think Sarah Dollard is the first to show us that traveling with the Doctor is very, very dangerous for humans. That’s been a bit of theme in Nu Who since the start. He inspires courage and sacrifice in his companions and that has consequences. Rose looked into the heart of the TARDIS to save the Doctor, and the only way to save her in return was for him to regenerate. Donna became the Doctor-Donna and the only way to save her was to wipe her mind. Amy and Rory got blown back in time by a Weeping Angel – they were happy because they were together – but the Doctor couldn’t save them from that fate. So, if this is Clara’s final end, I don’t feel it’s out of synch with the broader narrative. We do need a female incarnation of the Doctor at some point though – I feel you on the gender dynamics.
Yes, the connections to Flatline are very interesting and I think there for a reason. Riggsy’s drawings came alive in that episode, which fits with the Sleeping Beauty motif noted above. That was also the episode in which we saw Missy watching the whole thing unfold on a monitor and in which she remarked at the end that she had “chosen well”. Clara as a companion chosen for the Doctor by Missy is a narrative thread we have definitely not reached the end of, so have no fear @bluesqueakpip I think further Clara-related threads will unfold!
22 November 2015 at 12:11 #47499Unbelievable. In the literal sense of the word in this case!
Phenomenal acting chops displayed by all concerned. Coleman and Capaldi couldn’t have done that any better. Also mightily impressed with Maisie Williams (who is only 18!).
Excellent script that felt very ‘tight’ throughout and allowed a good layer of tension.
And then that ending. I understand everyone above who feels that it was almost anti-climactic for Clara’s arc. But I entirely get the points made by others that this is what we’ve been building to; ripples have become waves, Clara has become too much like the Doctor, there are consequences.
Indeed if this really is the end for her (and I honestly can’t decide one way or the other how this will play out) then Moffat was true to his word to “shock, horrify and surprise” us all.
I feel certain meanwhile that it’s the Time Lords who made the deal with Me/Ashildr. But it feels like it’s too easy for it to be Missy. In fact if it’s just been Missy all along then I think I’ll be disappointed; I need the end of this series to go big, or my abiding memory will be Clara leaving us with just the smallest puff of smoke, rather than in the blaze of glory that would seem fitting for the Impossible Girl.
22 November 2015 at 12:21 #47500Diving straight in tonight as it is getting rather late. I was right about Clara being in mourning this series. I think this is really the end for Clara but there are still Claricles out there. I rather hope that the Doctor will keep running into them for a long time yet. I am certain that Jenna, between other roles, would be happy to oblige.
I am guessing it is the Time Lords who have sent for the Doctor. It seems like their typical haughty modus operandi.
I am still hoping that there will be some resolution to the mystery of Orson Pink as well.
Look forward to reading all the comments tomorrow. I suspect it will take more than a day to catch up with the discussion.
Cheers
Janette
22 November 2015 at 12:31 #47501I meant to say – welcome! Don’t apologise for taking up space – we don’t (usually) bite.
Glad you are enjoying this series so much. I am also pleased there are women writing and directing this year (TPTB have listened to some of the reasonable critique on that score). I also love the addition of Maisie Williams very much.
I was deeply fond of Matt Smith’s Doctor, but didn’t think he “worked” with Clara in the same way that Capaldi’s Doctor has done. Amy and Rory and River were Eleven’s companions, for me.
Anyway, do post again – and be warmly welcome.
22 November 2015 at 12:31 #47502Chill dude – had you read on you would have found you got caught in something not really to do with the forum (which reiterates that we know only a limited amount about our little global family).
And on the topic about which you deployed the royal ‘we’, ask yourself if you would have felt the same had Sally Sparrow – arguably the greatest companion who never was – come back and had someone taken a bullet for her. It is quite possible to care greatly about a character we have only seen briefly.
(and seemingly been banned)
Nobody has been banned. Sometimes people realise of their own accord that they are in no emotional state to participate properly in the forum (the reasons are still there for anyone to read).
22 November 2015 at 12:48 #47504Ok, my perspective on Clara’s Death.
Yes, it is plainer than what I have expected. After some thinking, I think this is a nice way to bring closure to her story as it explores her character, the Doctor and her relationship with the Doctor.
First, Clara is always selfless, willing to sacrifice herself for others ( i.e. Asylum of the Daleks and the Name of the Doctor). It might be due to her empathy or her lack of connections with others. In this episode, it is more of the latter as Clara doesn’t even mention anything about her family before her death. Clara experiencing the passing of her mother and Danny Pink has lost her sense of “home” and has become detached to the world like the Doctor. Clara, like the Doctor, are people that are so emotionally scared by the loss of close ones that they use adventure as a form of escape to their cruel reality.
DOCTOR: […]One day, the memory of that will hurt so much that I won’t be able to breathe, and I’ll do what I always do. I’ll get in my box and I’ll run and I’ll run, in case all the pain ever catches up. (The Girl Who Died)
I think Twelve see this problem with Clara and propose that she finds someone in Under the Lake. Yet, Clara refuses, as she thinks that the connection with the Doctor is good enough for her and she doesn’t need anyone else (maybe because of going through the pain if she loses another one). She is probably right, but the problem is both the Doctor and Clara are both traumatized in the similar way. They can’t heal each other. From Last Christmas onward, Clara has become suicidal. She is going to die one way or the other.
Clara dying in a boring and uninteresting way shows both the nobility and the danger of being the Doctor. First, it is parallel to Danny Pink’s Death in Dark Water. Secondly, it is obvious that Clara is turning more and more like the Doctor. I think she has truly become Doctor Clara in this episode. There are lots of parallel in the things the Doctor and Clara does. One of the most notable thing is Clara willing take risk to save Rigsy, her companion. Both, the Doctor and Clara have the duty of care towards their companion. It reminds me of the Parting of the Ways which Ninth sacrifice himself to save Rose. Her death also resembles Tenth dying for Wilf. However, some may argue that Clara is stupid and being incompetent. Yes she might be. Nevertheless, I see her death as result of the lack of luck. The Doctor taking risk actually carries immense dangers which we audience tends to forget. In the Mummy on the Orient Express, the Doctor takes the place of Masie to face the Mummy. The Doctor might have died just like Clara does in the episode. I think Clara’s death due to her mis-calculation has huge impact in revealing the nature of the Doctor.
Her calm death reflects the nature of their friendship – the Doctor needs Clara more than Clara need the Doctor. In her final moments, Clara is comforting the Doctor as he was her child, telling him what to do without her. Clara is as if a mother/nanny that deeply cares about the Doctor. I just feel like the whole purpose of Clara Oswald is to save the Doctor both physically and psychologically. She is like an angel that falls from heaven just to stand at the side of the Doctor.
Clara: I don’t know where I am. I don’t know where I’m going, or where I’ve been. I was born to save the Doctor, but the Doctor is safe now. I’m the Impossible Girl, and my story is done. (the Name of the Doctor)
I will be very unsatisfied if there are no stories behind Clara’s origin in the following three episodes. Clara is just too perfect for the Doctor to be true.
Emotionally, I like this plain exit as it contrast hugely to Rose’s, Donna’s and Amy’s dramatic exits. It is new that Clara has become more of a broken person after staying along side with the Doctor. Yet, this is how she become a soulmate to the Doctor. I will definitely miss the Doctor and Clara Oswald in the TARDIS when the series ends.
Ps. Sorry, for grammatical mistakes. Didn’t have time to proofread. I have spend to much time writing this already.
22 November 2015 at 12:57 #47505I have a few afterthoughts. I rewached lately some Amy and Rory episodes. And as I really like them very much I think Clara was much more involved in Doctor’s matters than any other modern companion. She was not only his conscience but also his right hand. No other companion influenced him so much as Clara. She died in vain but she accepted her fate bravely. And at first I was angry and disappointed because I wanted for her a better departure (with better I mean a really good reason, a sacrifice to save someone). But now I understand that it had to be something like that. I didn’t think much about Amy’s departure. It was the only think she should do. But she had that choice and the reason to do that. Clara had not. It was a punishment without a crime. Or her only crime was that she wanted to save someone’s life or acted as a Doctor but as a human she couldn’t. Sad that it was the first time when she was unsuccessful and it was her death day.
22 November 2015 at 13:00 #47506What @avaris said, almost exactly.
22 November 2015 at 13:13 #47507I see her death as result of the lack of luck.
This. This sums up my feelings on the matter completely. She did something The Doctor would definitely do, and was just unfortunate this was the one time that wouldn’t work. Because sometimes, once in a blue moon, but sometimes, The Doctor loses.
22 November 2015 at 13:57 #47509Could she be the hybrid? I don’t think thus is the last we see of her
22 November 2015 at 14:40 #47510I mentioned previously that I couldn’t help but notice the shot of Clara in the street from behind, as if from The Doctor’s perspective (similar in style to what we saw in Sleep No More), which is used a few times when The Doctor first walks out onto the street and during the moments where Clara faces the raven, as it were.
As I said, it could just bear no significance, but earlier on in the episode Mayor Me explains how the Lurkworms work to The Doctor – “The light is a telepathic field. It normalises everything you see, places it within the compass of your expectations, your experiences.” The Doctor is the only person to actually witness Clara’s ‘death’, so could it be that because he expects Clara to die, with Mayor Me assuring him of the fact there’s nothing she can do, that is what he and the audience observe? Given that we know the events of the episode were to set The Doctor up to be taken by whoever “they” are, perhaps seeing Clara die is what “they” deem necessary in order to prepare The Doctor for what’s to come, sending him into a somewhat vengeful state.
I don’t think Clara will consequently turn out to be alive, but I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to suspect that there’s something more to her story.
22 November 2015 at 15:22 #47513An excellent episode. As with @pedant, I agree with everything that @avaris said. A wonderfully insightful reflection on the episode.
It is almost as if this episode, particularly given the “To Be Continued” ending, defies bonkers theorizing. I have no idea at all as to where this might lead over the next two episodes. But I suspect that Moffat is about to take us and series 10 into totally new and uncharted territory.
22 November 2015 at 15:34 #47514does anyone else really dislike the character ashildr?
i really cant stand her, the really smug im so clever attitude, im preying she does not become the new companion, i think its about time there was another guy companion, in the mould of the 2nd doctor and jamie.
22 November 2015 at 15:52 #47515Firstly: Did anyone notice Clara and the Doctor’s two shirts in the episode one before an after he phoned rigsy?
Secondly: The music score for this episode was phenomenal so hats off to whoever did that
Lastly:
@blenkinsopthebrave But I suspect that Moffat is about to take us and series 10 into totally new and uncharted territory.
I totally agree as many said in the ‘Sleep no more’ thread you have to have experimental episodes to have great episodes (‘Love and monsters’ and ‘blink’)
What is this series was just Moffat’s experimental series?…….
22 November 2015 at 15:56 #47516@iusedtobethedoctor I don’t think Ashildr is meant to be likable. She was so young when the Doctor made her immortal that she hadn’t yet developed the emotional maturity of an adult. I think that shows in the choices she has made. She has enough certitude that she is right, that she is willing to be judge, jury and executioner of her little street community. She was angry enough with the Doctor to enter into a contract to lure him in, without considering the potential ramifications. It’s good that she at least seemed to feel remorse over the path her actions set in motion.
As for the episode itself, I’m still processing my thoughts on that. Like others, I think there may be some smaller, more upbeat ending for Clara. I hope so, anyway. I don’t mean a “happy” ending. But something with a little more hope. Though it may be that the theme of Clara’s story arc is, “Travel too long with the doctor … at your own peril.”
Hubby refuses to watch scenes for next week, so he missed the after-the-credits scene of Rigsby’s graffiti art on the TARDIS. I do wish they had positioned that differently, pre-credits, for folks who don’t like spoilers. It was an important detail, and a wonderfully poignant ending scene.
22 November 2015 at 16:00 #47517@iusedtobethedoctor You can only dislike them if they are acted well…
22 November 2015 at 16:19 #47518Exactly – Ashildr is a wonderful character because she is shades of gray.
She was a storyteller and a young hothead as a girl. Her bravado brought the Mire back to her village. Her consent to wear the Mire helmet as part of the Doctor’s plan of trickery then saved her village, but killed her in the process.
And the gift the Doctor gave her, of functional immortality, was a poisoned chalice. No wonder she is angry. He changed her to be unlike any other of her species, yet he chained her. She knows what is out there in the universe, but he refused to show her.
How far is the Doctor responsible for Ashildr? I think – very – especially as she was a child when he gave her the immortality chip.
22 November 2015 at 16:42 #47519@lewis97 That is a very interesting observation, and you could well be right about its significance. All the signs seem to point to there something being more to Clara’s exit from the story than we saw. It seemed odd to me that, unless I missed something, the Doctor, having witnessed her death, went straight back inside to face Ashildr/Me.
I have not yet had time to watch the episode a second time, but in the interval until I can do so I have been mulling over the various possibilities. @countscarlioni and I separately both noted the fact that Clara went forward to face the Raven, unlike others who, we were told, normally ran, and wondered if this might be significant.
As regards the death and whether or not there might be a resurrection of some kind, I have mixed feelings. Moffat has a history of apparently killing characters off, only for them to reappear, and for this to be just another instance of the same would be an anti-climax and disappointing. On the other hand we know of at least two occasions when Claricles died after helping the Doctor, and it was implied that it had happened many more times. If, as several people have suggested and discussed, the Clara we have seen over the past three years was not Clara Prime but another Claricle in a loop with no beginning and no end, what might this mean in the convoluted time line of the Doctor?
22 November 2015 at 16:44 #47520Totally agree with @juniperfish and @nerys. Ashildr has arrogance-squared (that of teenagers who think they have all the answers AND of the immortal). That is a fascinating character with an inbuilt balloon for a Doctor to prick, or let down gently.
I made the error of going over the kasterbouros.com, where the three or four posters they have left seem to have built the definitive Maise-Williams-Is-Crap groupthink machine.
On a different note was I pondering how Moffat likes to make sure there is a fair bit of Christmas in his Christmas episodes. Can’t help suspecting he will get a present of some sort this year. I doubt it will be an alive-after-all-Clara, but there are those who care about the doctor enough that they might move mountains to bring him comfort.
22 November 2015 at 16:54 #47522Just wondering how Me/Ashildr knew to be at the school and in the right place to show up in the background of a photo that would end up being shown to the Doctor?
22 November 2015 at 17:01 #47523@pedant the thought of an immortal teenager is rather terrifying, isn’t it? I can only imagine what I’d be like as an immortal, and I’d rather not meet me. I mean, having all those hormones floating around in you, forever? That would be a living nightmare.
22 November 2015 at 17:01 #47524How far is the Doctor responsible for Ashildr? I think – very – especially as she was a child when he gave her the immortality chip.
I agree, and I pretty sure that he is very much conscious of that fact.
As Lady Me in the 17th century she told him that she was going to protect the universe from him, or words to that effect – a retaliation of sorts, and the latest way she has found of doing so is to create, or at least preside over a haven for some of the alien species who have, over time, faced the Doctor as enemies. Why they should choose to shelter on earth is another matter, but I suspect it all ties in with the developing theme of the good, or at least redeemable, which may be found in even the most implacably hostile foes.
Digressing a little, I’m a sucker for the idea of alternate places or realities hidden within the everyday world, such as one might stumble upon accidentally when turning a corner or venturing down a suddenly revealed alleyway. The ‘Dickensian’, old-world character of this particular hidden place might seem a bit corny, but it ties in with it having been created around the time of Waterloo, when the Doctor lost sight of Ashildr.
22 November 2015 at 17:17 #47525@mudlark: I thought Ashildr said in the episode the reference to Waterloo was not Waterloo the battle but Waterloo Station. Now I know nothing about Waterloo Station, but a brief web search indicates that it and its surroundings are infamous for a long convoluted history and thus confusing layout, a parallel to the hidden street.
22 November 2015 at 17:19 #47527Hi guys. I just joined today, need to talk to more Whovians!
I really loved the episode and Clara’s death. After watching Doctor Who for several years now, I know I shouldn’t get attached to a Companion or Doctor as they wont be on the show forever. The fact that we know that each companion and doctor will leave us should bring us some sort of comfort, but it still is painful each time and yesterday’s episode reminded me of that. The fact that we still keep on watching even after all the ‘deaths’ mean something. Anyways, I really liked Clara Oswald, sadly she went out not with a bang, but with a whimper. I can’t wait for next weeks episode!22 November 2015 at 17:27 #47528first off – phenomenal episode, as usual.
in a previous thread, possibly ‘sleep no more’, one of the wonderful minds on here, (sorry i forget who it was), made a post re. the arc for this series having a solid thread of prejudice/refugee/acceptance, or lack of, of others despite differences etc. running through it. this episode, in my mind, was no exception. the reaction to Rigsy in the trap street was clear evidence of this. one citizen even said ‘we don’t want your kind round here’, or words to that effect. i realise that the alleged murder allegation was the obvious surface narrative but there is a clear mirroring there of instances of historical western racial prejudice in that phrase.
re. clara’s death. i did not find it underwhelming. in many ways, to me, the fact that despite her now legendary status as a companion who has saved the doctors life more times than any, the simpleness of her departure gives her character even more nuance. she was the epitomy of human brilliance in her acceptance of her fate i thought. i think she even started to break the icy exterior of ashildr in the end.
it’s like donating a ton of money to a charity anonymously. the true hero doesn’t seek adulation. merely does what is right because it is the right thing to do.
as far as the dip of sound during her final scream, i found that poetic too. chilling but poetic. we had a reference from the victim earlier and were left to hear hers ourselves.
but hey, she’ll probably turn up again next week. 🙂
bring it on.
22 November 2015 at 17:32 #47529Welcome, @akhaten! I’m sure you will enjoy it here and it’s always nice to see new faces!
22 November 2015 at 17:34 #47530Welcome aboard!
she went out not with a bang, but with a whimper
I’m pretty sure the jury is still out on that one.
Waterloo is not especially complex – big, but fairly straightforward. However, the first station was only built in 1848, a full 33 years after the battle. South London railways builders generally were renowned for simply ploughing through working class areas, but that is not unique to Waterloo.
To “meet under the clock at Waterloo station” is however a well known London thing.
And, of course, it was the sight of a very famous sunset.
22 November 2015 at 17:34 #47531@jphamlore. You are correct and my memory was at fault. I was making the same mistake as the Doctor and forgetting that she had corrected him.
The character of the hidden enclave would, however, still be constant with the date of construction of the original station in 1848, assuming that was what Ashildr meant. At that time of rapid expansion and redevelopment there were, I think, still quite extensive pockets of an older London surviving, and one can imagine how, in the midst of all that development, a street might easily slip off the record and out of knowledge
22 November 2015 at 17:47 #47532Thanks for the welcome guys. I was wondering, had any of you seen this video yet? Video here . Sorry if you have, its just another way of Moffat’s brilliant spoiler that you dont really get until it happens. “She’ll die on you, you know. She’ll blow away like smoke.” Anyways, glad to be here and can’t wait to discuss more Doctor Who things!
22 November 2015 at 18:09 #47534Hi all – as with most (everyone??) enjoyed this one (if “enjoyed” means watching through my fingers while Clara said goodbye).
Agree with that the lamps make you see what you think you ought to see.
Agree with many also that although Clara may be back (in some way), this should be her ‘death’ (in that she was trying to be noble and brave even if she had misjudged).
In terms of Ravens and Tarot, the only connection I can find is for the Hanged Man.
In the Norse Tarot he is specifically depicted as Odin (who had two ravens – Memory and Thought). And Clara was the Hanged Man earlier in the series.
Now, the entry for the Hanged Man in the book I have is “A sacrifice must be made in order to gain something of great value”.It is a voluntary sacrifice. The other thing this book says is “The notion of exchanging the mundane for the spiritual is the central theme of The Hanged Man.”
22 November 2015 at 18:15 #47535just a couple of thoughts…
i wonder if clara’s last words, “let me be brave,” were directed at the doctor? as in, “i’m accepting the consequences of my actions, to save rigsy (and his future with his family), please don’t rescue me from this, doctor…” clara is, maybe, the leaf blowing in to rigsy’s life? but the other side of the coin to the lucky chance that brought her into the world? and i see a parallel to danny’s saving of the boy, danny would not let her change his mind, once he decided to sacrifice himself…
he could have asked her to give the tattoo to him, as he would (presumably) regenerate. i’m surprised that option wasn’t written into their farewell scene. but she was playing the doctor, yet again, ordering him to stay there, to protect him, knowing full well that, like most of his own companions, he wanted to try to intervene at the last moment to save her…
one other thing. the doctor loses companions frequently, but rarely does he see them actually die. they normally die living out their own lives, somewhere away from him, so this death is especially egregious to him. he knows (or believes) that there’s nothing he can do, and that’s the worst kind of defeat. looking on, helpless, constrained by an unknown power. in this instance (rare though it may be), he knows he can’t cheat death like he has so many other times…
22 November 2015 at 18:24 #47537@Lewis
Yes, I agree with your post too. Clara the Nanny/caretaker of the Doctor. She
was born not only to be the impossible girl but also with strong instinctual gifts to be a
nanny which made her perfectly suited to be this Doctors companion. She was that from the time
he was a small boy telling him his fear was also a companion. He helped him grow into
the good Doctor again in spite of his doubts. Isn’t that the tradition in nobility that children
are raised and taught life lessons by their nannies? Interestingly, Me needed a Nanny too!
She does seem to be weak in her judgments despite her great age. I found it also interesting
that she was in the of position town sheriff/judge. Is that called compensation? And ‘They’
are taking advantage of that weakness.I thought the good cop bad cop scene was disturbing too. It felt as if Clara was taking
too much on and the Doctor was allowing that. I imagine he’ll be blaming himself for
her demise given that he allowed her too much rope. Also love your sentiment about the
song in the jukebox diner! Maybe in the music blog we can post some ideas about a song
the Doctor might play for her? Maybe something Adele-ish? I have to still get her new
music that just came out. She writes good tunes that are the type that might fit- maybe?
Was it you or someone else that said that the Doctor showed up with angry eyebrows with
the other Doctors to hide Galifrey. It kind of makes sense if it happened just after
Clara’s death in his time line and was seeking revenge from them for her. @geoffers
Yes. Watching her die has to compound a very profound heartsickness!I noticed the difference between the 2 raven deaths too. As if they were trying to make
distinctions between them and I also noticed that light that came from Clara. To me that
implies a revisit from Clara. I was wondering also about the black smoke as a possible
reference in some mythological sense? I remember in the series ‘Lost’ they used the black
smoke monster to take people too in a bunch of episodes.22 November 2015 at 18:29 #4753822 November 2015 at 19:52 #47540first thoughts after seeing the episode
oh wow, it canna be true.
Then I stopped and thought, we know (and yes I suppose we
ve hashed this before in various ways) that Clara is the Impossible Girl and it got me thinking again has the Doctor been actually been travelling with a Claricle ever since the Name of the Doctor. This might account for Claras sometimes headlong dash at times to appear to out Doctor the Doctor and has the Doctor been aware of this and the likelihood that it would lead to Clara`s ultimate death.22 November 2015 at 19:52 #47541@whisht I think you’ve hit the nail on the head by saying Clara was once again The Hanged Man. I also have an idea as to what will be gained as a result of her sacrifice. I’ll post my theory over on the spoilers thread though because it involves the last two episodes.
22 November 2015 at 19:54 #47542Newbie here 😊
Discovered Doctor Who a few years ago and instantly loved it! Capaldi is becoming my favorite doctor. This season has been spectacular. I thought Face the Ravens was just wonderful. Clara is not my favorite companion but this season I like her so much better. Jenna did such a great job acting in this episode. She made me tear up!
I’ve been a lurker around here for quite awhile. I really enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts and seeing the episodes through other’s eyes.
22 November 2015 at 20:03 #47543p
22 November 2015 at 20:09 #47545This episode was great. Thought that the Doctor was the valeyard for a second. The atmosphere of this episode felt very mysterious and more like morbid urbanfantasy than science fiction.
Claras need for adrenaline kicks turned slightly into madness in this episode. A long time has probably passed since sleep no more or something big happend, for her urge to become so severe.
Capaldi and Jennas acting was magnificent. They truly looked heartbroken and full with grief when they realised that Clara would die and the Doctor would be left alone.
This and the next episode will probably break the doctor. Clara helped him with his depression, but now she is dead and the doctor blames himself for it. He is also about to be tortured in the next episode. Evil cliffhanger… Super excited for next week.
22 November 2015 at 20:10 #47546@pedant: Thank you, as I said, I know nothing of Waterloo Station. 🙂
@mudlark: Agreed that the history of Waterloo Station aligns with the possibility of a forgotten street.
@lisa: Agreed some sort of future scene with Jenna Coleman as some sort of Clara is inevitable. If nothing else, the way TV series are filmed, the order in which scenes are filmed does not reflect the order in which they will be shown. Even if Jenna Coleman had to leave as soon as possible for her next role as young Queen Victoria, it would be wasteful to not think of something for her to do to be in the final two episodes or perhaps even the Christmas episode. Look at how Moffat was able to efficiently use the time the show had with Maisie Williams.
22 November 2015 at 20:44 #47547can somebody explain why people keep talking about tarrot cards i just cant figure that out also my theory is the master/missy has set this all up and i kinda know why unortunetly i cant spoilers here note missy is theory not spoiler !!
22 November 2015 at 20:53 #47548I’m thinking of the white light from Clara is possibly a form of protection
against the black smoke raven monster? Maybe its a way of her ending as the Doctor
and saving future victims against the ravens death? Like a guardian or a barrier. Well
its all possible in Dr. Who. I could see it as part of her hybrid evolution too. Maybe she
can now become some other apparitions? In any case, feels fitting that she becomes part of
the Raven as it has nice symmetry with Ravenwood that was at the beginning of her arc. -
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