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@jimthefish
Not sure re River – can we trust DWM?
Perhaps the TARDIS has a way to communicate with River inside CAL?

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@jimthefish

Not sure re River – can we trust DWM?

Perhaps the TARDIS has a way to communicate with River inside CAL?

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@blenkinsopthebrave.      Well, if you are right about Moffat planning for the Doctor to be behind Clara then it is just a rehash of last season. I am trying to see a way that is better than that, assuming that Moffat would riff on his paradox obsession rather than just rerun one version of it.

Perhaps I am being too optimistic?

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@osakahatter.     No, it was never explicitly stated that Hartnell was the first but it always seemed that way.  Brain of Morbius is often quoted as evidence that Hartnell was not the first incarnation because the Fourth Doctor there has a mind wrestle with Morbius and faces appear on the screen which appear to be earlier incarnations of the Doctor. But, at best, that sequence is equivocal. The Doctor beats Morbius and so it may be that the images on the screen as earlier versions of Morbius, rather than the Doctor.

No real evidence – but I will be very surprised indeed if Nu-Who takes the position that Hartnell was not the first.

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@haveyoufedthefish

Why do you think Clara is not there to save the Doctor? Do you have a reason or is it just you think that can’t be it? Genuinely I am interested.

It seems to me that we knew that Amy was crucial to the Doctor’s survival and that somehow remembering would be involved before we went into Big Bang.

Equally, before we went into Wedding of River Song we knew that The Doctor knew he was going to be killed at the Lake and had a plan to avoid here.

Here, it seems to me, we know the Doctor does not know who or what Clara is but she always saves him – so is it a stretch or a break from Moffat style to expect that The Name of the Doctor will show Clara saving the Doctor in a time paradoxical way? I don’t think so.

With the help of the TARDIS, Clara, already the Impossible Girl, will become the Impossible Girl with the ability to be in any time stream the Doctor needs her. By a paradox of this sort, Clara will save the Doctor from falling at Trenzalore.

It seems to me that is pure Moffat – which is why I think it’s the answer.

Clara won’t be a villain because that will just be a repeat of season 6. Clara can’t just restore the Doctor through memories because that would just be a repeat of Season 5.

No – it will be a variation on the common Moffat theme: a paradox we don’t quite expect which results in a solution we don’t quite expect.

I think.

🙂

@bobbyfat.   If she was placed there by the Big Bad, again it would just be a rehash of Season 6. Even I think Moffat is better than that! Surely?

@bluesqueakpip.     Yes, I agree that the Doctor is benefiting from Clara’s input and the input of others. It is good for him.

That’s another reason why I think that Clara being able to save him at Trenzalore when he does not know what is coming is likely to be the final solution and represent a complete new start for him.

Can’t help wishing that Clara still turns out to be a regenerated fob-watched Susan though…

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Some thoughts/responses to all your great contributions.

@timeloop.  #7734

He is clearly undergoing conversion to Cyberman – but, no doubt, he will get out of it. But it looks exciting…although possibly too Borg like ( but then ST:NG stole the Cyberman idea for the Borg in the first place…)

I thought we might get “Chairs are cool!”

#7785.    I really do think the different photo in the eye was artistic licence. I think they wanted the “monster Doctor” reveal to be a surprise in the episode and not in the opening sequence.

#7786.    But River specifically said it was a Nestene duplicate she dated.

@scaryb.  #7736

At first, I thought he went to talk to Vastra – but then he didn’t, so not that. Which left, to my mind, checking up on whether there was any trace of the GI or where it went?

#7739.    No, Mr Sweet didn’t seem phallic, but that rocket…

#7765.    What are you counting as the Davison episode? I was thinking that might be next week’s?

#7807.    Like your Pinocchio postulation. It’s happened in story that way anyway, so maybe exactly what they plan…

@juniperfish.  #7738

I think the kids are there next week to let the kiddies at home relate specifically to the Cybermen threat. It’s a clever idea I think – and has the potential to ratchet up the scary meter!

But, in the Mary Poppins vein, it would be a parallel to the trip into the chalk drawings that Mary takes the Banks children on…

#7754.    Yes, am certain. My probably wrong thoughts are in Spoilers. 🙂

#7759.      Yes, I think she is definitely the solution – her purpose is to ensure the Doctor survives.

#7778.       Can’t see any basis for a timey-wimey non-monogamous deal between the Doctor and River. It’s a very strange marriage though, that’s for sure. I kind of wish we would see something lovely between them happen, but would it be too much? Not sure.

#7801.   Ooh….the Doctor as genetic modifier…maybe his name will be Davros after all…

@phaseshift.  #7744

I think Vastra and Jenny should have their own time as companions first. I would love that.

#7821.     Agreed. Loved Tegan in Snakedance and Kinda. Actually, quite often liked her. Fielding herself is quite the dinner guest…and when she is tipsy and talking about Tom Baker…hilarious!

#7896.  Totally agree. Those three are gold!

@ardaraith.  #7745

I am willing to bet that Clara will be a surprise to River. I did not get any sense of the Doctor knowing who Clara was though…

#7753

The Great Intelligence was, and I think still is, a disembodied space and time travelling powerful intelligence seeking corporeal manifestation. It needs power to fuel the manifestation – hence it wanted the Doctor’s mind in Web of Fear when it had started an invasion of London and was taking corporeal form in the shape of a very disquieting fungus-like foamy substance.

I too wonder about the kids…there is something about them..

#7806.   Sure – that’s possible. Horrific but possible.

#7847.   Yes – quite right. That is the quote which is troubling – it does not sit with anything that the Doctor has done since. So…an aberration? Or does he know  – despite giving every indication he doesn’t : something he has not done before.

@wolfweed. #7746

Pretty sure Thomas Thomas was just a boy – and that sequence just a joke.

I guess if you count Susan and Adric, children have travelled with the Doctor, but I think these two are the youngest.

@bluesqueakpip.  #7748

I think the photos are just a convenient plot point. I suspect the woman in the shop might be in that category too.

#7780.    Could they not all be original Claras? If she is impossible, that might be the way she is impossible?

#7809.    I really think they just used whatever music was free and appropriate for dramatic effect – cannot see that they would source an arrangement of the right time version of Jerusalem which they had to pay for if another was available. But, obviously, you may be right and it is a clue.

But I don’t think we are in flashback. I think we are approaching another paradox.

#7819.    Well, we are definitely in or about to be in another Moffat signature paradox I think.  And Clara is, it seems, there to save the Doctor, or at least help him out when he is in trouble. So, the paradox is likely to be about or involving Clara. I think.

@jimthefish.  #7750

Bloody right!

#7754.  But is it right that the Doctor makes his enemies worse? They could reform, adopt peaceful viewpoints – but they don’t. The choice is theirs – the Doctor does not make them do anything. Does he? I always thought Davros’ line that the Doctor is culpable for the sins of the Daleks was rhetoric of the most fascist and unsupportable kind.  People who do things in fear of the Doctor are doing bad things otherwise they would not have to fear him.

@thommck.   #7772

Because that is what the 11th Doctor does – he leaves Clara for periods of time just as he left Amy and Rory. They don’t travel continuously.

@badwulf.   #7799.   I think you will be disappointed. Love will, I think, be what dissipates Clara through time and space. Just not sure if it will be hers, or River’s or the TARDIS’ or someone else.

#7816.    I hope your faith in Moffat is well placed and rewarded. Alas, I think that the loose ends will remain loose ends. I can’t see the exploding TARDIS being relevant to the mystery of Clara – but who knows really? Only SM.

#7803.   I love Keeper of Traken. Bit clunky but such good ideas and the Master plot was great.
And I always liked a crowded TARDIS – it started of with the Dr and 3 and I see no reason why it can’t work with more than one companion, even with 45 minute episodes. Rory showed, clearly, how a good actor can make a memorable character from very little, just as Harry Sullivan showed all those years ago.
It’s just a question of getting the character of the companion right.
I always thought Tegan would have worked best as a solo companion, whereas Nyssa was perfect for a team.

@HolyMackeral.       #7802.   I think it means the production team is obsessed with the Doctor snogging and flirting.

@shazzbot.        #7812.   Yes, you are absolutely right about the picture of the Doctor in the dead man’s eye being different when seen at the beginning and then when seen later in the episode.

#7849.   Yes – think you are spot on there.

#7822.      Great question. My preference is the Doctor with 2 companions. It does not matter who they are as long as they have defined characters and the possibility for good interaction with the Doctor is there. Steven and Vicki, Ben and Polly, Jamie and Victoria, Zoe and Jamie, Sarah and Harry, Amy and Rory – there have been a lot of successful double companion teams. Vastra and Jenny….that’s a series I would like to see, them as companions with the Doctor.

#7904            I am probably just too simplistic for words – but I assumed the steam process ( whatever it was ) was removing the residue venom from their systems – much as you would boil a cloth to remove due?

@osakahatter.   #7826

Yes, you are right – the fall of the Eleventh could mean anything. But it seems more likely than not that it will mean the fall of the Eleventh Doctor. Don’t you think?

@blenkinsopthebrave.  #7844

Yes, agree about no dark Doctor. I too think, for the first time, this Doctor does not know what is going on and does not have a plan. The Impossible Girl is happening to him. It’s a good change I think.

@haveyoufedthefish.  #7877.   I don’t think she can be Kovarian. Why would Kovarian want to save the Doctor?

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Well, that’s two strikes for Mark Gatiss – another cracking Doctor Who story, this time a fabulous homage to the Fourth Doctor and, particularly, Talons of Weng-Chiang and Horror of Fang Rock, with a touch of Davison for good measure – Brave heart Clara!- and a creature out of its time wreaking havoc in ye olde Yorkshire a la The Visitation.

This is superior stuff – everyone here is doing excellent work, and this is Smith at his best yet in the role. ( Yes, I did just say that…)  Diana Rigg is delicious as the vile villainess and Rachel Stirling wonderful as the poor Ada. Strax, Vastra and Jenny were terrific as ever – not for the first time, I wondered if this Jenny was the regenerated Jenny fromThe Doctor’s Daughter.

Clara too was excellent – she was ahead of the Doctor on the chimney ( a chimney – Mary Poppins again!) and once again, she provided the solution : smashing the chair into the controls saved the day. Interesting that she can answer puzzles but not questions about herself. And the final scene was so beguiling…

The story was brooding and dark, a classic Doctor Who form – unsolved murders, a macabre plot afoot that will end humanity, amateur sleuthing, a false front hiding evil, a creature that must be found and stopped…and here presented in a fresh way; the flashback sequence was genius, and no loose ends. Again.   I found it gripping, funny and surprising – all Doctor Who should be.

Yes – the photo of the Dr in the eye of the corpse in the pre-titles sequence is different from the one in the eye of the same corpse later in the programme…but artistic licence can accommodate that…surely…

“Who is he?” “Names don’t matter here” Interesting…

It riffs on memories and love, things hidden and coming to light, the Doctor as metaphorical/literal monster, redemption, parent and child – the themes of the arc are all there, and not so subtle.

Interesting that this is now the second story where the TARDIS did not go where the Doctor wanted.

Funny in jokes – the Corporation  Way sign, presumably a comment on  the BBC’s move to Salford? And the sublime but hilarious Thomas Thomas sequence foreshadowing the ubiquitous TOM-TOM devices.

I liked, too, the fainting tendencies of Mr Thursday.

Wow! Now I have three favourite Smith episodes  : Crimson Horror, Cold War and Snowmen…

And next week looks sensational!

I have not felt this engaged with the programme since The Stolen Earth. Terrific stuff.

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Spoilers & Speculation

I wonder if we ( well, at least me) have been looking at Clara the wrong way?

Moffat is, beyond argument I would think, a recycler of themes and an acute misdirection expert.

Season 5 saw a time paradox solving the destruction of the Universe and Amy’s memories restoring the Doctor to that Universe.

Season 6 saw a time paradox solving the murder of the Doctor, with the memories of those who were at the Lake being used as a way for the Doctor to be made safer, by people thinking he was dead. River carries the burden of being the one who killed the Doctor.

Apart from Asylum, it does not seem that Season 7.1 was about anything except ending the Pond era.

But, starting with Snowmen, Season 7.2 is about the Impossible Girl.

Because the Great Intelligence was involved, I made what I think may be the mistake of assuming that it would want the Doctor’s memories or the TARDIS and that, therefore, Clara would be the way of restoring those memories to the Doctor.

But the spoiler which shows the gravestone of River Song has made me think otherwise. Because, whatever that is, I am certain it is classic misdirection and not a sign that River is dead.

So if there is a gravestone, why is there one? Who is dead?

Precisely.

Is this arc about a death the Doctor did not see coming? Or, maybe, his final end, but not in its right time?

Dorium knew about Trenzalore and the ” fall of the Eleventh ” and talked about a question that must be answered. How did Dorium come to know that, to hear that legend?

The Whispermen perhaps? Is that their purpose? To whisper rumours so that eventually they become fact?

In any event, we think that the question is “Doctor who?”. Lets say it is. There is no way the Doctor’s real name will be spoken out loud. But it might be communicated telepathically – Clara knows the name and she seems telepathic.  River also knows the name – so, if she is there, she could answer the question – and if she is there in some post Forest form ( perhaps a hologram powered by the TARDIS ) then she might be able to answer without speaking ( because she is not corporeal or because being part of CAL gives her telepathic abilities).

But what is the question for? Why does the Great Intelligence or whoever want to know?

When Tennant discovered River knew his name, he was shocked. It seemed that he thought there was ever only one place his name would be spoken. I assumed that was either his wedding or his funeral. And the emphasis on River has always made me think that it was more likely the first, even when we apparently saw the Doctor whisper it to her. I guess Moffat helped with that by showing us a funeral for the Doctor, which River attended, but where there was no mention of his name. Misdirection.

So, if not a wedding – a funeral. Do you seal a Time Lord tomb by invoking his/her real name? Do you stop a regeneration by invoking the real name?

And is the GI planning on entombing the Doctor on Trenzalore so that he is finally dead? Having learnt from the Pandorica ( where the Doctor was not sealed in with his name) is the GI onto something?

Or is it going to absorb his memories so that he ceases to exist? Or somehow wipe out his memories so that he never existed? And then entomb him?

So – what of Clara? I confess there is one thing which really puzzles me – the leaf. Somehow, that leaf is a clue, part of the explanation for Clara. Is she a leaf from some Tree of Life? I don’t know – but there is something about that leaf.

Clara – given that the Doctor has asked her outright whether she is a “trick or a trap” she is sure to be neither. Misdirection.

It is clear she does not know who she is. But she has one consistent trait – she keeps saving the Doctor. Every episode she is in, Clara provides the clue or actually solves the puzzle/averts disaster. One way or another, she is his saviour.

In religious and mythological theory, it is often the case that the saviour is also the creator.

Can that be the paradox for this arc? Clara saves the Doctor because she creates the Doctor? Not in the sense that she is his mother, although maybe, but because she does something on Gallifrey which makes him run with Susan, makes him steal the TARDIS?

And, if we accept what Idris said in Doctor’s Wife, and the TARDIS chose the Doctor, then either Clara is some emanation of the TARDIS or Clara enters the TARDIS vortex to fragment herself through time, working with the TARDIS to ensure she is always where the Doctor might need her.

Even looked at this way, Clara could be Susan.

But I think rather than restore the Doctor’s memories or run a computer programme to do that, whatever happens at Trenzalore when the Doctor falls will make her the Impossible Girl – and that will be the paradox this arc.

The Clara paradox will save the Doctor’s existence as a traveller, a meddler,  an intervener in the evils of the Universe ( and thereby saving entire races and planets ) having prevented his elimination by the GI by altering his past and his future.

Clara’s intervention now could mean that the Doctor never becomes the Valeyard – because that future ends, never happens, because of what the GI and Clara do here.

Her power, the power of love and belief through the centuries, will save him. Some timey-wimey way.

Perhaps it is as simple as she goes back to Snowmen and gets the Doctor to absorb the GI or have the TARDIS consume it – thereby stopping its creation?

I suspect, though, it will be both simpler and more complicated than that.

Moffat says it is a game changer; that Doctor Who will never be the same again. There is one thing that is constant in Doctor Who and really only one thing, albeit one thing that evolves over time – the TARDIS.

So is that what is going to change? The Doctor gets a new TARDIS?

Whatever, I think that at least one thing is in plain sight: the Impossible Girl saves the Doctor.  And she is the Impossible Girl because as the Impossible Girl she was somewhere, sometime when she became the Impossible Girl – so she creates herself ( I suspect with the help of the TARDIS) so that she can save him.

A paradox created by someone other than the Doctor saves him.

No Time Lords, No unlocking the Seal, no Daleks or other Big Bad, no Doctor doppelgänger or dark Doctor.

Just Clara. And the fruit of the Doctor’s creation of the Great Intelligence. And the TARDIS.

Okay – there you go. My final theory – well, part theory anyway. Pain medication is a great incentive for wild theories…

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Yes, welcome back @craig.

I am about to post some medication inspired thoughts on the finale in Spoilers if anyone wants to fume with rage or snigger with contempt or even express mild agreement…

@scaryb.    While I agree the Classic series was not “about” the companions in the same way as Nu Who is, I think that we did, often, know quite a lot about them from their introductory story and then we saw how they dealt with the travels. There were some exceptions – Dodo, for instance – but, by and large, we knew what we were getting when they became companions. Another major difference, I think anyway, is that the companions never went home between journeys in that early time, certainly Pre-Pertwee, and even then there was a sense that the Doctor did not go anywhere without the companions (Metebelis Three being one exception).Nu-Who changes that too.

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@bluesqueakpip.    Although Sam was very nearly Doctor 11…

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@HaveYouFed The Fish.   You got there before me – I completely agree with you re Hartnell and the relationship between he and his companions – Rose was very definitely the new Ian and Barbara.

I think the real s difference between Classic and Nu is the resolution of the Time War. That one stroke by Davies left the field open for new adventures and left lingering possibilities for revisiting the past.

 

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@bluesqueakpip. 

Age:     Well, you might be right. Romana 1 struck me as the personification of what the Doctor did not like about Time Lord society. She was smug, self-assured, totally on top of theory and completely sure that what she had been told by the Academy and the President was completely true. It was her travels with the Doctor which broadened her mind. So, no, I don’t think the first thing she would have done would have been to check the TARDIS data banks.

And, in any event, as Troughton made clear in Tomb, Earth time is calculated differently from the way he ( and therefore, presumably, Gallifreyans ) calculates it. I cannot see how or why Romana would, therefore, speak in Earth years.

But, as I say, I am not sure it matters – least of all to the Doctor

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WhoHar.      His brother? It’s the King Peladon David isn’t it? His son?

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@phaseshift.   Are there people who don’t like A Very Peculiar Practice?

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@bluesqueakpip      Your analysis above is, with respect, spot on. #7669

I agree that the Doctor’s issues with his age may be part of his overall memory loss here. He does seem, in some ways, to be falling apart – or disappearing, fading away.

Not at all sure that Clara will die again…but maybe you are right.

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@bluesqueakpip     I may be wrong, but I thought that the Dr ran from the Ood cave because they told him about the Master’s wife and the possibility of his survival?

@HaveYouFedTheFish   No, I agree that the TARDIS would know. I also agree that the Doctor would have access but probably cant be bothered.

But why do you think the Time Lords would have access to the TARDIS archives/memories? Or that anything Romana said about the Doctor’s age came from the TARDIS records rather than her briefing on Gallifrey?

I am not really fussed one way or the other about the Doctor’s age – but I am not sure we really know. And I am not sure it matters.

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@bluesqueakpip     You may well be right – as I say, I am no expert on End of Time.

I am not sure what passages you are referring to, but all I can say is that what you have said about Time Lords appearing to have an in-sych body clock with other Time Lords never seemed implied to me.

Is this the passage you meant?

WM: Listen, Doctor. If this is a time machine, that man you’re chasing, why can’t you just pop back to yesterday and catch him?D: I can’t go back inside my own timeline. I have to stay relative to the Master within the causal nexus. Understand?WM: Not a word.

But, ultimately, as @thommck says, age is probably irrelevant to Time Lords.

As to meetings on Gallifrey out of synch – not sure how we would know or why it would matter. Usually, its River who wants to sort out where they are in their personal timeline. Isn’t it?

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@phileasf        I think the ‘Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story’ could work

Yes, no doubt. Possibly will.

But in an “in-story” way – with his friends, companions, the TARDIS etc – restoring him from their memories, form the footprints he left in their lives.

It was the “BBC Television programme” aspect of the theory – the “out-of-story” way – that I think would be undesirable.

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@phaseshift

Rescue has this:

BARBARA: Well, what was the year when you left Earth? VICKI: 2493, of course. My mother had just died and Daddy wanted to get away so he took a job on the planet Astra. IAN: You were on your way there and you crashed here? VICKI: Yes. But why did you ask me the year? What year did you leave? IAN: Well, you see Vicki, our space ship, well, isn’t like this one. It travels through time. BARBARA: We left in 1963. VICKI: 1963! But that means you’re about five hundred and fifty years old. BARBARA: Why, yes, I suppose I am. Yes, it’s a way of looking at it, but I’ll try not to look at it too often. VICKI: They didn’t have time machines in 1963, they didn’t know anything then. IAN: Oh, we weren’t entirely ignorant, young lady. Even the Doctor thought it was worth paying us a visit. That’s how we got mixed up with him in the first place. BARBARA: The Doctors from a different age, a different planet altogether. 

And in The Time Meddler:

VICKI: Well, they weren’t getting any younger, were they? DOCTOR: It’s lucky for you child, they’re not here to hear you say that. Good gracious me. You think they’re old? What do you think of me? VICKI: You’re different, Doctor. Anyway, we may land in their time one day and be able to talk over old times. 

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@whohar    In War Games it was made clear that the Time Lords had not been able to track the Doctor after he stole the TARDIS – he needed to give his location for them to help him. So he could have spent thousands of years of his time between when he stole the TARDIS and War Games.

I’m not sure that the Doctor actually cares how old he is?

I don’t think I would mind much at all if the Rani turned out to be the Doctor’s bossy older sister… 🙂

@phaseshift   I have been trawling through the old recordings to see if there is a Hartnell mention – but I have not found one yet and am not sure that I can ever remember one. Of course, it might be in a novelizaiton but not on screen?

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@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan

I was not meaning to debate anything ‘Phaseshift said – I agree with him.

As, indeed, I agree with your analysis – well, up to a point, anyway. 7.2 seems to be more than just about camping tales of the wandering minstrel-shogun-Quatermass. 

To me anyway.

Different overviews or ways of looking at seasons can co-exist quite happily I think.

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@whohar           I had forgotten that Tomb of the Cybermen has Troughton saying that, in Earth years, he was about four hundred and fifty.

Romana 1 , when she talks about his age in Pirate Planet, says he has been operating the TARDIS for 523 years. I always thought that curious, because Romana was not stupid. Yet, when you are dealing with time travel, its a particularly stupid remark. She cannot really know how long he has been operating the TARDIS – all she can know is when he stole it and when she met him – and, presumably, anyway, she is talking in Gallifreyan years (it being implicit in Troughton’s statement that there is some other measure of time than Earth years). So, while it might seem he has lived 523 years in the TARDIS from the linear point of view on Gallifrey, actually he could have lived a million years in time and space away from Gallifrey’s timezone. How would Romana know?

Romana says he is 759 in Ribos Operation – so, at least in that period, from Romana’s point of view, he had been away from Gallifrey for 523 years, making him 236 when he stole the TARDIS. But all that has to be from the linear point of view on Gallifrey, in Gallifrey time (or, at least, non-Earth time).

I have always wondered, too, whether the Time Lords forcing a regeneration made the Doctor lose some life years. Who knows?

I think the only way you can make sense of the Doctor’s age is to accept whatever the Doctor says about it at any given time – because we are not always with him, we can’t keep track of his age. If Moffat’s stance is that the Doctor can’t keep track of his own age, well, that’s probably right – and exactly what Romana thought:

ROMANA: You’ve lost count somewhere. DOCTOR: Well, I ought to know my own age. ROMANA: Yes, but after the first few centuries, I expect things get a little bit foggy, don’t they. 

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@bobbyfat.      I think it is all entirely planned and deliberate with SM. He leaves little to chance.

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@phaseshift.   Yes, I think you are precisely correct in your succinct analysis of Smith’s first season. It is a personal journey for Amelia Pond, but one that reflects the lives of all who had “their Doctor” and want him back.

And, actually, I would argue that if you do not see that season in that light, it’s lustre is very hard to find.

It is interesting to contemplate how, if at all, that overall theme would have changed if it had served as the arc for Tennant’s final season, as originally imagined, rather than Smith’s first. The same but different I guess.

The second season, the Impossible Astronaut season, carried similar themes. The notion that someone was always trying to kill the Doctor, someone who really loved him but could not help themselves because of brainwashing; that at the same time there were pale imitations running around, possibly threatening his existence; that there were some who wanted you to simply forget you had ever seen him; but that, truthfully, the Doctor was cleverer than them all and could always find a way to survive.

Smith’s second season was about the damage and difficulty caused by some fans to the Doctor’s legacy and possibilities.

The first part of Smith’s third season did not seem to me to have an overall theme or underpinning notion. Except that it was about introducing Clara, Kate Stewart and UNIT (again) and farewelling the Ponds. If anything, it was the most reflective of Classic Who since Rose.

This second part, though, seems to be back into full Moffat mode: that the Doctor is the sum of the memories of everyone who has ever loved him and that, no matter what is thrown at him – multi-platforms, vampires(fans) trying to suck the life from him, old enemies ( budget cuts, censorship) – there is always the power of love, the family he has collected ( both companions and BBC Worldwide and fans) and the lives he has touched and changed forever (Emma in Hide and Tricky in Journey) to sustain him and keep him going. Even when the worst happens – when he is defeated/cancelled by a force that considers itself a greater Intelligence (Michael Grade?) – the power of the stories that combine to make him what he is will endure and ensure that he endures too. Storytelling will see him pulse with renewed vigour.

Even if some unsavoury things are revealed about his past or it turns out he is not everything he has said he was – too many people, now, have had the experience that Amelia Pond had: their lives have been altered by the Doctor and he will always endure, survive, return.

Of course – I am jumping the gun here: but it seems clear enough on what we have seen so far.

The Impossible Girl arc is really about how the Doctor will always be a part of our human culture – whether he is there or not. Because people will remember him, and from those memories, Phoenix-like ( that’s for you @juniperfish ), the Doctor will always be resurrected.  The space, the void, his absence creates will allow his revival. It’s too late for his naysayers – the Doctor is now firmly a part of the Universe. – so you might as well enjoy it.

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@shazzbot           Well…….yes, I have wondered for some time if the Jenny with Vastra was the Doctor’s Daughter Jenny…hmmmm

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@phileasf

Seriously….if this happens:

The common thread here is that something imaginary (or apparently imaginary) becomes real. So, how’s this for a 50th anniversary story: the BBC makes a great TV show about a time traveller called the Doctor, and so many people across time and space fall in love with this great story, that it becomes real. Through some sci-fi mechanism, a fictional character believed in (or at least loved) by millions of people becomes (like Pinocchio) ‘a real boy’. All that love conjures the Doctor out of the quantum foam. The Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story

there will be death and plenty of it…

That’s a fan tale, combining the unrelenting horror of the worst aspects of Last of the Time Lords and Big Bang. Yes, it  is possible – but that sort of storyline would be fatal to the programme.  In my humble opinion.

That dreadful reference to the Earls Court exhibition in Rings was quite enough…

I think you are absolutely right that stories and storytelling are going to be crucial to the finale. The Doctor has been telling stories, hiding the truth about why he is called the Doctor. We are going to find out what those stories are, I think.

But, truly, I cant see a story as self-referential as this – and nor do I think it would be desirable.  Sorry!

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@jamesunderscore   I think there is no doubt that Moffat has a view about why the Doctor is called the Doctor and I think we are about to find out what that is. As you say, Girl in the Fireplace shows his interest in the topic.

But I am confident we will not get a name.

Rather, as many others have agreed or suggested here, we will find out why he is known as the Doctor – and I am not expecting it to be a good reason.

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@bluesqueakpip     You mean he is downloaded there to keep him out of the way or permanently?

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@whohar         Well, I suppose it certainly means the Doctor is not her grand-mother…oh, wait…

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@phaseshift

Hilarious!

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@shazzbot

@whohar

As I said on the other page, you can read this as her Mojo being “the Doctor”/her grandfather.

 

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And for those who like such things:

Angie Maitland is an anagram of  Data Angel Mini

Artie Maitland is an anagram of Data Terminal I

Just saying…

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@davemorris316          Yes – I think that the 4 was just to suit the story of Bells.

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@shazzbot

Little Clara lists to the Doctor things she’s lost when explaining how she’s always losing things.  She says, ‘My best pencil, my schoolbag,

my gran, and my mojo’
Now, I could have heard that wrong (after 3 tries) but it really sounds like ‘my gran’.  So, did she lose River Song?

Thanks for reminding me. I must admit that was one thing which made me think she was Susan. She knew her real grandmother was dead and she had lost her Mojo – her grandfather, i.e, the Doctor.

I knew there was a reason I did not think River was going to be Clara’s grandmother – this was the point.

Imagine the fun exchanges between Clara and her “new” Grandmother…

🙂

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@Shazzbot             Is he Alfie or Artie? I thought it was Artie?

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@haveyoufedthefish               Okay – new silly game, then?

Favourite ridiculous story title?

Toenails of the Daleks

The Armpit of Doom

Good Rill Hunting

The Nostril of Omega

Masterplan of the Master

 

Your time starts….Now!

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Alexander Sheep Dalek:          Con Sti Pate

Mas Ti Cate

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@whohar     I may be wrong but I don’t think Hartnell ever said anything precise about his age. I don’t think any Doctor was specific until Tom Baker.

@Shazzbot   Yes, quite right. Some time would need to be spent on Omega – but really it could be quite simple:

“Clara:     Omega?

Dr:           The first Time Lord. He sacrificed his life to give time travel to my people. Well, not sacrificed exactly – he ended up , alone, in an anti-matter Universe. He went mad slowly. Very very slowly.

Clara:      Bit like you then?

Dr:            Quite a bit. Except I took more time to get there. Possibly.  Anyway – he has been trying to find a way to come back into our Universe for some time. I have stopped him twice – last time I sent him back to his lonely prison.

Clara:      He’s not going to be pleased to see you then.

Dr:           Possibly not…”

As to 123 – well, we assume its three Claras – but maybe its three Doctors: 1, 10 and 11?

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@iditosavan    Some bright spark – not sure who, but very clever – suggested quite some time ago that Clara’s phrase meant – Run (as in activate) You Clever Boy (being a programme about the Doctor and his memories) and Remember (being the consequences of the programme being run).

I have always thought that was an inspired idea – and feeds into the notion of Clara being there to help the Doctor find himself, in her Mary Poppins mode as I like to think of her.

What was most interesting though was that the password in Bells seemed to have been created by Angie, the girl Clara is governess too. If it is not just a co-incidence, does that mean that Angie – and her brother – are more than they seem? Are they what is hidden in plain sight?

And, if so, what could they be? Regenerated Time Lords? Human relatives of the Doctor? Relatives of River? The Doctor’s children being looked after by a regenerated Susan – none of whom really know what they are? Not sure…but there is something about those children…

As to Omega…well, anything is possible. I think I would be more warm to the idea of a return of Omega if we had seen an indication of the symbol again somewhere this season – but I am not sure we have. Silver Nightmare, though, could be a place where it might turn up.

Omega of course was the First Time Lord and the Doctor is the last Time Lord – so is his name Alpha? (Frankly, I would vomit if it was, despite the symmetry)

But, I agree with those who speculate that we will not hear his name but we will find out why he is called “the Doctor” – and I doubt it is going to be pretty. He has doctored something and caused a problem – I think, probably a problem that cost lives, perhaps those of his family apart from Susan and perhaps his Mother.

Whatever – I feel certain the GI is after the Doctor and the TARDIS and that somehow they will get one or both and then Clara – possibly with River, who may or may not be her grandmother (still cant see how she could be) – will work with Doctor 10 and Doctor 1 to bring back Doctor 11 – what a remarkable thing if Doctor 1 and Doctor 10 give Doctor 11 a “push” (a la K’anpo Rimpoche from Planet of the Spiders) to start his regeneration.

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@ardaraith.   A flesh body needs a real host though…

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@haveyoufedthefish

I quite like your theory. Well, in so far as it will see Smith intervene in whatever crisis led to Hartnell’s departure from Gallifrey to ensure he or he and Susan gets away safely.

This might actually feed into Susan being Clara.

The reason Smith has to intervene is because Susan turning into Clara is necessary for him to survive – say. Because she has Idris inside her. To revive his memories which the GI have stolen.

Say the GI takes the Doctor’s memories and realises that if Hartnell can be stopped from leaving Gallifrey, the Doctor will never be an issue for the GI – but the GI will have his memories and his TARDIS and can control the Universe. The GI tries to set up a paradox in its favour.

The rules about the Time Lock have been set by the Doctor. So he may have a way into Gallifrey – and if the GI have the Doctor’s memories they know the way in.

Hmmm……yes, it is quite possible. And if its done well, it would be wonderful.

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@shazzbot.   In Bells, the GI did not want to keep the minds assimilated. Kizlet said that if she downloaded some of the human consciousnesses that had been harvested they would die – presumably because the body had been disposed of.

The GI could absorb River’s consciousness – and if there was a time when River was there the Doctor could download her stored memory into her body. She might have a headache though…

Or he could create a new form for her somehow into which to download the consciousness.

There will be a way.

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@phaseshift      I have to say, I wish that somehow the Master were in on the 50th.

A really good Master – unexpectedly now – would be terrific. He could have an allegiance with the GI for instance.

Maybe that is what John Hurt is doing…perhaps he has let Omega take him over?

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@lula     I don’t think there is any way the BBC would permit him to be a first time director on Doctor Who –  really cant see that.

If I were him, I’d go at the end of the Anniversary Special – there will never be a high as big as that for the series – and it will ensure his place in history. Anything after that is going to be a let down. There has never been a fuss about an Anniversary episode as the fuss about this one.

And if series 8 of Nu-Who starts with a new Doctor and Clara/Susan – it means all bets are off – the series is looking backwards and going forwards. Especially so if the secret revealed in the finale changes our view of the Doctor as Moffat claims it will.

We will see.

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@lula   We don’t know. we assume that Omega was not involved in the Time War – he was the first of the Time Lords – his sacrifice gave the Time Lords the power of time travel but the cost for him was being lost – alone – in an anti-matter universe where he went insane.

He tried to come back both in Three Doctors and in Arc of Infinity and in the latter he may have been killed or expelled back into the anti-matter Universe.

He has not, so far, been linked to the TimeWar.

But, you are right, there have been Omega references littered through the series – and as Omega was the big bad for the 10th Anniversary special, it makes sense for him to participate in the 50th somehow. Maybe. It might just be a false scent.

 

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@ardaraith    Yes, quite right. If the Doctor is taken over by the GI, or they get his memories and they take over the TARDIS, they could easily go and download River from her “resting place” in the Library – and then kill her.

Sure.

Indeed, a while ago, when I was thinking about the GI tracking down the Doctor’s companions and removing his memories by taking them out of his timestream, I wondered if removing River from the Library would effectively erase her – I decided it wouldn’t. But it might mean that River could die and still make appearances in the Doctor’s timeline – just ones that had happened to her before she met Tennant but have not yet happened to the Doctor.

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@lula   At the moment, the BBC is in a very bad place. It is going through a lot of change and there are very many unhappy people.

Unhappy people tell tales.

Equally, though, people claim there has been a real schism in the DW production team over Caroline Skinner’s departure and her alleged sacking by Moffat following an alleged affair between the two.

The easiest way for Moffat to stop real information being leaked is to ensure false information gets leaked. It would not surprise anyone, really, if the Special was called The Twelve Doctors or The Twelfth Doctor – but that does not mean a regeneration. The Next Doctor proved that.

On the other hand, there has been no official confirmation that Smith has signed on for a further season. Or Moffat for that matter. But there has been official confirmation of JLC.

It would be a coup if Moffat managed to pull off an unexpected regeneration – that will be a game-changer – it has never happened in the history of the series.

And there is a deluxe regeneration book/dvd set coming out this year, so it would not be remarkable if Smith did regenerate, but in the Anniversary special.

On the other other hand, Smith could regenerate at the end of Name of the Doctor or perhaps be pushed back in his timestream into John Hurt (say) playing Hartnell’s doc and then regenerate/revert back. It will be timey-wimey whatever happens.

And you are right – people who work at the BBC are telling stories – I have heard them here – but it is impossible to tell what is kosher and what is not.

River may well die in the finale – but she will be restored – otherwise Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is thrown into disarray.

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Time Lord Dalek          Re-Gen-Er-Ate

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The “hidden in plain sight” thing is typical Moffat – it can mean anything but it can drive you crazy trying to work it out.

The trouble here is that the Doctor seems not to have any idea what is going on with Clara – but there are odd moments, like in Snowmen  when he nevers queries why Clara answers the one-word test with Pond, and when this exchange occurs:

CLARA: I don’t know why I’m crying. DOCTOR: I do. Remember this. This right now, remember all of it. Because this is the day. This is the day. This is the day everything begins.

Now, at the time, I thought that just meant this is where Clara’s adventures with him begins. But does it mean something else?

Why hasn’t he given this Clara a key to the TARDIS? She has more than proved herself but still no key.

We won’t know what is hidden in plain sight until he tells us.

But the clues seem to be: the woman in the shop; the TARDIS interaction with Clara; the Doctor’s memory loss; the changes to the TARDIS interior; the key to the TARDIS (both of them);  the Dr saying he was “breaking in” the TARDIS; Clara’s reference to Pond; Ghosts; the leaf; the GI and their plan; secrets that keep you safe (or don’t); souls being the sum of memories of other people; family relationships; alternative/pocket universes; paradoxes that solve themselves; altering the past by what you do in the present.

The key to solving the mystery must be how Clara is in different timelines. I don’t have a clue about that – except if the TARDIS has sent multiple Clara’s out into time to find the Doctor. Or if, in the future, the GI expels Idris from the TARDIS and she takes refuge in Clara and then, in some paradoxical way, sends her off to different times.

Or something else…

Its possible Clara is normal right now, I guess, but it seems more likely she is something waiting to be activated. A friend waiting to be needed. Family waiting to be wanted.

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@bluesqueakpip      Very funny! And might actually be on the money…

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