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@jimthefish Am with you on deus ex machina 😉 Usually trotted out by people who have at best half an understanding of the term and are criticising the “sloppy, lazy “writing.  I don’t know why I still react to it!

Between us, Guilty Bystander, @branfish, @phaseshift‘s friend Martin Belam, I reckon we proved the point tho. Probably around the time TS started going on about custard pies, LOL.  It’s still going on now btw, but it’s on to the direct personal insults. GB’s still trying, but you’ll never get the last word against a troll. We did get 1 person to concede it’s not a DEM tho 🙂

<waves @chickenelly; the rewatch is even better 🙂 >

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<waves @jimthefish>

Glad you liked my deus ex (NOT!) defence on t’other place   (Ignore the truclant one, you’ll be there all day!)

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@fulcanelli

Also note the last few episodes mention geographical locations in Northern England. Significant?

They have indeed, particularly this week with Clara’s South Lancashire origins being mentioned several times (by the salvagers’ gadget)). And we’re heading “up north” next week, according to the trailer 🙂

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@Shazzbot – Yup, great call on the zombie spot. I didn’t work it all out till the reveal and a second viewing.  (Incidentally she’s rubbing her hand right back in the pre-titles sequence)

Thanks for the reminder re the bottle uncorking and spilling – it was Volume IV btw – any suggestions from anyone? (Can’t make out the voices, but other people thought they heard child or children mentioned. (T Baker off having a life none of us even dreamed of..??!))

At this point tho I do think Clara’s as “normal” as it gets in Who. Whatever she is in the plot, she’s still to become it. (Unless she’s just been split in this episode. And unless she’s chameleon arched)

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<waves @fulcanelli >

nice spot re junkyard Tardis

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@zaphod re the zombie in the Library,  and the cloth (we agree!) – see upstream for convo with @miapatrick – definitely the Dr.  The one that chases Clara round the console is her.  Looking again at what Bram’s zombie does – it seems to meld with him (after that very uncomfortable scene where the Tardis may or may not cause him to fall). Is that what they need to do – find their “twin” and fuse with them?

The salvagers’ story is interesting,  about teaching 2 bullies a lesson and coming to the aid of the brain-damaged/”android” victim.  They severely underestimate the Dr (and the Tardis) all the way along. You can imagine their strong-arm, clumpy boots intimidating attitude has worked before – and hey, what have we got here – a crazy fool on his own who thinks his ship’s defences (look! it doesn’t even have guns! it opens the doors when I threaten it with mine) will be a match for us. Ha!

One of them at least seems to have a learned a lesson by the end, and you hope Tricky’s life will be better.

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@phileasf that is certainly an epic! Some good points though.  Leaky Timelock etc

Re Clara in the Library tho – She says to the Dr at the end “You have a name, I’ve seen it, in one corner of that tiny–’” That description – tiny-  is hard to reconcile with the massive tome of the Time War History. If it was a tiny picture it’s surprising she picked up on it. The cradle isn’t really tiny either, it’s quite chunky by cradle standards. The only tiny thing I remember her encountering and examining is the model Tardis.   Maybe there’s a name on that that corresponds with something in the book.

She also picks up an umbrella (just before being chased by Dr-zombie)

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@miapatrick re the cloth – that thought occurred to me too, on the rewatch; but it may just mean he’s tidying up (although the other way could mean that too…) Aaaagh! This episode makes my brian explode 😀

@ardaraith – feet under the Tardis kept putting me in mind of the Wicked Witch of the East in Wizard of Oz!! (Did someone mention that upstream?) Only thing missing was the ruby slippers, LOL. He could have been flung out with all the other gubbins that he’s buried under. But yes they could have been in this loop (spiral?) for a long time.

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I think all rules about crossing your own timeline can be safely ignored when you’re in a breaking down Tardis which is frantically creating timeloops and frozen engine-spaces to try to preserve what it can of itself and its occupants.

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New theory (no 6,732!) The Dr is the Great Intelligence. His consciousness (or part of it – perhaps the bit without a conscience, or a more primitive part of him) is set adrift and has to take the slow route to meeting up with the rest of him. It goes a bit loopy and power-crazy from being disembodied so long. (Ref – all the mirroring of the Dr and the GI which has been teased out on the Snowmen thread; the Dr-zombie in JttCotT)

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Rewatched. Love it even more. Love the brothers’ story too, the oldest brother’s a bit of a plank tho (my only criticism). In lots of ways the story’s actually about them, and at least one of them learning to empathise with his brain-damaged brother.

The Doctor’s very dark but for good reason. He’s an alien of great power and these stupid (selfish and greedy – def NOT the best of humanity!) humans have just endangered the wonder of engineering that is the Tardis thro their use of a silly little bit of illegal tech.

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Re repeating “stuff” from early episodes of this season, in addition to eggs being back, flashing lights are explicitly mentioned and if that comment (highlighted by @juniperfish) about like a light switch with two positions representing separate but occasionally interacting timestreams doesn’t come back as a future plot point/explanation I’ll concede to full fish-isation!

@ardaraith historical precedents – for person split thro space and time see the Jagaroth (a Douglas Adams script from Tom Baker period (City of Death) – also the result of an explosion. I’m sure there’s others our historical experts will keep you right – @htpbdet? It’s surprising (or maybe not) how many things have been visited and revisited through the years! Eg the Tardis on the verge of destruction but trying to save the occupants, resulting in psychological confusion – Series 1, story 3 (Edge of Destruction) – with a bit of a lower budget tho.

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@haveyoufedthefish I like your reasoning re previous Tardis explosions. It might not be the ultimate solution, but it could certainly wrap up a lot of loose ends if no other explanation comes out in the next week or 2 😉  (And yes, good call on the Dr’s hand being fused to his face and that his crispy brain is focused on trying to keep her away from his secrets).

Also like @whisht‘s eggs. I thought we’d done with eggs post-Easter, but could still be on @juniperfish‘s birth/rebirth cycle.

@timeloop – seems to be a concensus that “flown her for 900 years” is consistent with him being approx 1200 years,  assuming he didn’t run off with her till he was a youth of approx 300 (consistent with Hartnell’s claim that he was about that age).

And speaking of timeloops, I think this has to count as one of the most horrific stories ever – everyone gets cooked at least twice – ref the Doctor’s comment about having thrown the remote through before but not picking it up. This time he sonics the enscription on it. So Clara’s throwaway comment at the beginning is the thing that saves them because the coincidence of it draws their attention to the solution. Clara’s hand definitely only has the cut/burn after the first time she handles the remote.

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Theory – the monster Clara first meets in the Library is the Doctor not Clara. It holds its face (a mannerism which is definitely associated with the Doctor in the Eye of Harmony room later).

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@haveyoufedthefish @badwolf99

The “big button” is the remote control for the magno-grab (the (banned) mechanism the salvagers use to bring in the Tardis), which is destabilising the Tardis and preventing the Dr putting the shields back up. It first appears in the pre-credit sequence when it rolls into the Tardis, Clara picks it up but then drops it.  The Doctor picks it up when he first meets the salvagers – says he found it in one of their pockets.

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@juniperfish @haveyoufedthefish

The first time we see Clara’s hand injury there is no lettering – only a cut

There are several failed attempts to avoid being the fate of turning into the lava monsters

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@phaseshift – you said it yourself – you’re a “shameless marketing whore”!

😉

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Clara’s hand wound is interesting. It starts off as a deep cut (no blood). Only later does the lettering appear, and only gradually. How many Claras have been running about here/how many times do they fail to reset/turn back time?

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@bluesqueakpip Agree, it looked like a bumpy ride. Maybe teh Tardis has something like the translation circuit which transfers knowledge of how to fly her in emergencies. (It might be only a short term thing or something that can be switched off).

And how much does the Dr remember? He knew what the fire monsters were, knew that they had all been through the scene in the engine room(?) at least once before.

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@juniperfish

“It’s like a light switch, two positions, flickering together at super-infinite speeds, running together for a brief second…”

Yeah, I picked up on that line too.  Lots of lines in fact, need a rewatch.

@htpbdet great to see you back in kick-ass form!

@bluesqueakpip great numero analysis as ever (Tardis in the skip, LOL). Sorry you didn’t like it. I was on edge of sofa, chewing fingernails! At one point I was worried they were seriously going to ditch the Tardis (wasn’t worried about Clara, LOL!). Loved the design, tho there were some seriously daleky-looking doors and corridors.

Paraphrasing the Dr’s line (when he gets to the heart and realises how serious it is – All these years, she’s always looked after me…

Matt just brilliant throughout

 

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@bluesqueakpip Re Clara flying the Tardis – I don’t think she did fly it last week. She appealed to the Tardis to let her in to go and rescue the Dr but I thought the Tardis was on auto-pilot or self drive then. You never see Clara pushing any buttons that I remember. Which is not to say that these episodes are in the “right” order – could this be the point of origin of the other Claras?

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@haveyoufedthefish Eye of Harmony… Maybe it was moved as a result of the Time War – or there was a backup version on the TL soundcloud? (new development post Master running out of regenerations?) Or the Doctor’s Tardis kidnapped it?

Loved the library and the encyclopoedias as liquid. What happens when it gets spilt though?

 

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@pedant @wolfweed yes to the parchment – I nearly threw a cushion at the screen when he didn’t even seem to notice it!

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@juniperfish

o989

Sep 89? Battlefield was screening throughout Sept. Back to Caliburn again?

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Oh My!

Just about recovered enough to string a sentence, or 2, together!

That was DARK. Incredibly dark.

The Tardis killing one of the brothers??! Or at least making him fall from a great height. She’s dangerous when cornered. I kept thinking this feels like rape the way the brothers clumped about and started stripping off the consul.  Worse than just burglars breaking in.

The burning monsters were them! So they’ve all (inc the Dr) died horribly at least once – and the Dr implies that it may have been more than once, before Clara manages to catch the Big Friendly Button.

“Android” brother – how evil a plan is that? As mentioned above, Red Dwarf could’ve used this but would have played it for laughs. But this was played for the horror that it is, the ultimate bullying. He’s had bits replaced – eyes, voice box, and has no memories – and his brothers exploit him for all they’re worth. Because they were jealous when he was the smart one and their father’s favourite. (And yes agree, Clara as almost-dalek who beleives she’s human vs real man who believes he’s a machine)

Dark and deep

And many many multiples and mirrors and echoes.

And Clara’s wearing blue in the last scene.

 

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Wow. Just. WOW!

😀

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<hi fins @juniperfish>

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@janetteb etc Am sure the Dr as Merlin’s been riffed on a few times, possibly particularly in Battlefield (am a bit vague on the details!). And Oswald as Kennedy’s nemesis is BRILLIANT! (and bringing in King Oswald, Cumbria etc). Lots of Celtic refs (esp Scotland and Wales) in Arthurian legends.

PS Happy 101st birthday to Sahibzadi Zohra Begum Mumtaz-ullah Khan (who appeared in the Marco Polo stories in 1964). 101 just seemed worth a mention! And the Marco Polo series was one of my absolute faves ever; I may be mis-remembering but I remember the production values being particularly high in it. Nice link @phaseshift akaSMW http://guide.doctorwhonews.net/person.php?code=318

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@phaseshift @bluesqueakpip

27? AND 50!!

A coincidence?? I think NOT!!
<goes to lie down for a while in case brain explodes before 6.30pm 🙂 >

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@janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave

JFK’s “court” was known as Camelot. Just sayin 😉

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@blenkinsopthebrave Good call on Excalibur; yes it’s been discussed (while you were timelocked out of the Qantas Lounge free wifi). There’s some info on the BBC Who site about it , and a lot of the other references in Hide.  Inc some info about the Cloister bell – “‘It’s a sort of communications device reserved for wild catastrophes and sudden calls to man the battle stations” Tho, as various posters pointed out above, in practice it seems to be more for “imminent crash into alternate universe/the collapse of all things known situations (otherwise it would be clanging its clappers out constantly!)

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@ardaraith Mary Poppins. brilliant! 😀

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@janetteb @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave @ShamelessMarketingWhore

1974 – candles were definitely used in 70s power cuts (torches too)

Costuming – these weren’t trendy 70s people – but agree, it had more of a 50s/60s feel – callback to Quatermass, on whom Palmer’s character was apparently based? Palmer’s age – he could have been early 20s in 1944, just about gets away with it. But why are they so concerned to establish it in 1974?

@bluesqueakpip – Damn! Of course you’re right. So they started on 22nd.  Which is exactly 11 (eleven!) years after Kennedy’s assassination. (Did you call that already?) (Also the date An Unearthly Child was recorded)

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@phaseshift

Re Q&A/FAQs – I think that’s a great idea – could handle all the stuff re etiquette like spoilers etc, without turning it into a set of rules.

And thanks for link to the smilies – I was wondering how you did the Ooops one the other day (Ha! that’s prob’ly the one I need most 😕 )

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<waves @zaphod – welcome!>

<hi-fives (hi-fns?) @juniperfish for pushing the sofa idea in the first place>

<turns on the ornately carved golden bath taps on @whohar‘s bath to be ready for the fish tonight>

<runs round the sofa 5 times in excitement. (trips over the empty wine bottle we left here the other night)>

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@phileasf Very impressive, love it! Especially the music “at the heart of the asylum”, wells etc refs

Re dreams – Agree that it can’t “all have been a dream” (cue  explosions of incensed fandom LOL) but I still say you can get round that by making it “memories up/download” ie it all really happened but the Dr has forgotten and needs to have his memories restored (which is what we’ve been watching (for last 50 years!). Any inconsistences can be put down to little glitches in the programme!)

@ardaraith – nice spot on drinking whisky in the Snowmen (tho it’s not the Dr who rejects the whisky in Hide). I missed that one, but I’ve been thinking he’s been seen eating and drinking a lot recently – he never used to!  The first time we commented on it I think, was in IA, with the red wine.  Although, fair enough, 11 was introduced to us via his strange food choices.  This season – coffee, scones in BoSJ,  blue fruit in Rings (when he comes back from being “missing”), drinking milk in Hide (agree with @pufferfish on that ref). Anything in Cold War?

My main reason for being wary of the Dalekisation theory is Moff’s comment in an interview that the Dr is the constant, that it’s the companions to whom things happen, and who are on the journey. But I do think the Dalek pathweb has to be significant if only as a foreshadowing of the GI (which is still out there – it’s never been defeated properly by the Dr (in 4(?) encounters) – each time it’s chosen to retreat)

 

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Thoughts on numbers – specifically 25-11-74

Couldn’t come up with much for that date (Henry Kissinger made a speech in China and Nick Drake died 🙁  )

Checking for 21st Nov (Alec Palmer says that this (ie 25th) is their 4th day so they’d have started on 21st ) – only Who-ish link is very tenuous publication date of Dr W & the Abominable Snowmen) Singularly uneventful week in history as @bluesqueakpip pointed out earlier. Suspiciously uneventful if you ask me! It was very conspicuously flagged – unless its significance is to follow. Or the Moff suggested to throw it in there so we’d get distracted from other stuff 😉

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LOL @phaseshift – nice 🙂

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@juniperfish, @bluesqueakpip

The Cloister Bell’s been clanging away more in the last 2 Dr’s times than any time before! The old girl’s a bit rattled.

@everyone!  Good to get the Spoilers thing sorted out now before it ends in tears! 😉

 

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@chickenelly (almost reincarnated as @fishynelly)

You’re right – you can’t temporarily change your ID name on the G blog. It’s a full regeneration or nothing! So – WE SHALL RESIST THE FISH! <checks the batteries in the anti-nanobot bracelets>

Just wondering if @whohar will donate his magical bigger-on-the-inside superbath to the forum for the next week or 2 – the fish could speculate in luxury surroundings from there and the rest us won’t need to wear our wellies for the trip to the (floating, anti-grav) sofa

@craig – have a great trip and ditto re @phaseshift‘s blessing (and will only add free WiFi to the list so you can teleport back in here). We’ll try not to wind up the mods too much while you’re away, hehe

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Aaaagh! Noooo! Not the SARCASM!!!

Just wanted to reinforce the comments above re spoilers. I’d prefer not even to see the official posters/titles, but I concede that’s impossible when balanced with my desperate need for speculation, LOL!  I’ve even managed to keep out of the Spoiler Room recently (mainly by catching up on the Music thread – great stuff in there)

Like @phaseshift I will probably avoid the Grauniad blog come week 0, but I’d hate to have to ban myself from here too.

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We could all agree to all change Grauniad login names to fishy adaptations for a week. See if anyone notices hehe. And before the fishy clan gets too excited, it’s just for a 1-off!  And more than you deserve after @juniperfish‘s dastardly nanobot plan. Just watch it or I’ll pull the plug out! (All this water’s not doing the carpet any good)

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@bluesqueakpip

Verry Interresting.

Each side of the picture is also almost (not quite) a 90 deg rotation in the POV. (And strange composition with the Dr on left looking out of the frame)

So are you saying Clara is actually a very early (pre-Hartnell) version of the Doctor? ie he started life as a girl? That’s the big secret (they could find his birth certificate in the centre of the Tardis)? Oooh! I love it! <sounds of traditionalist fanboys whirling in their (future) graves ;-D >

PS One more hat to throw into the theory ring – if we’re looking for potential authors, how about the Shakri? <Gets excited about poss return of Stephen Berkoff; just need to fit in a Canton return and I’ll be in fangirl heaven>

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Re who wrote the book – only other entity which could is the Tardis! Maybe she creates the texts of all the Doctor’s stories and preserves them in the Libary (Clara being the personification of one which has escaped (eg books/people in Farenheit 451)). Previous examples of the power of books in Angels in Manhattan. And the oblique ref (Summer Falls) in BoSJ.  There again her sense of past/present/future is not so great so it may be unreadable! Love the Land of Fiction call… haha that could telescope on indefinitely (in classic sci fi mode).

Or did it all start when the Dr actually didn’t reject the offer of the job (the Mind Robber) and has been writing his own stories ever since? (Cue scene in very centre of the Tardis – a tiny, dark, Victorian style study, with a hunched little figure spotlit (in blue!), writing at a desk, surrounded by mountains of paper, muttering about deadlines and daleks.

PS his name is on the frontispiece of the Book….?

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@htpbdet Speedy recovery wishes from me too. Hope you’re out in time for JttCotT (If not, a quick reversal of the neutron flow of the big machine that goes BeeP beside your bed should adapt it to receive incoming TV signals)

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@whisht Whishtfish <LOL! splutters> Ditto at Phasefish etc…

<hastily hands out nanobot-resisting bracelets to counteract @juniperfish‘s sneaky plan>

(ScaryBassfish – I think NOT 😉  )

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You blink and this while board explodes, LOL.

Lots of great new stuff. Love the idea of the Dr being the origin of all the Time Lords (caused by the Big Bang of his (3?) Tardis(es) exploding!) -would you Adam and Eve it!

@bluesqueakpip Completely agree re Clara and Dr being positioned as mirror images (or blue/red images) of each other. Maybe Clara is a future incarnation of the Dr come back to save him from his dark self. (That way they get to trial run a female doctor without fully committing yet).

I don’t think we know that this Dr is embarrassed by sex, just sex with humans. It must be like your favourite puppy humping your leg!

The Doctor’s name – lots of instances from way back of the concept of “true names” having a power. See  @juniperfish‘s detailed posts re Isis myths, fairy stories (eg Rumplestiltskin), Ursula le Guin etc etc  But my fave is still that they subvert it and his name is The Doctor.

As a password it could be typed in, doesn’t need to be said. Then they could still hide it. Or maybe it’s not that he’s forgotten his name but that he hasn’t been given it yet.  But I also like that he needs to face his dark self – that would tie in with Hide, and his 2 ways of dealing with the “monster” in the pocket universe.

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Clara’s clothing –

Asylum – red (tho as @htpbdet pointed out it’s very doubtful that she’s actually in this form (she’s a dalek) but this is how she sees herself). Confident

Snowmen – Red for barmaid, blue for governess. Confident

BoSJ – shades of blue at beginning then red (haven’t checked if she goes back to blue at the end (iplayer still not working). Fairly confident. But… “where am I?”

Akhaten – Blue – unsure (cf red leaf (and why is it so different from the leaf in BoSJ))

Cold war – Blue (Also that strange scene just after she goes underwater, which is very blue-lit); unsure

Hide – Blue; unsure and “not happy”

JttCoftT – Red (attitude TBC)

@htpbdet Given the woman who summoned the Doctor was most certainly dalekised (eye stalk and all that) I’m assuming she was under Dalek control

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<waves to everyone with eyes tight shut. Must not look at spoilers page… much discussion over there… must not look… must resist…!>

@elwingt I don’t think @juniperfish, @jimthefish and the rest of the slippery finny clan are going to be much reassured by your “I kind of like them”!!!

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@janetteb Oooh, AAh!! <bounces up and down on the sofa>

Clara.

Dresses in the Snowmen – red then blue (@juniperfish Add Clara’s dresses to the red/blue lists!!)

And great call too re how she behaves in Snowmen – following the Dr when he tells her to stay – I completely forgot that. Doh! There’ve been a few people commenting that she doesn’t seem to know how to behave as a companion yet. In last 2 episodes the Dr’s told her to stay put – and she has!  Mind you having died in each of her previous 2 incarnations, you can understand her caution!

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