S33 (7) 10 – Hide

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  • #6498
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    as a little bit of a diversion, here’s quite a good article on the japanese well based ghost story I was referring to…wont answer any of our riddles though…

    http://seeksghosts.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/traditional-japanese-ghost-story-okiku.html

     

    #6499
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck – different circumstances, admittedly. River and her friends are in a virtual reality run by a young girl in exactly the same position they are. Namely, they’re all dead except insofar as they can ‘live’ in the virtual reality. CAL only wants the people living there to be safe and lets them out (those with bodies to go back to) the second she can.

    The WiFi victims are being used for some nefarious purpose. The Doctor never really finds out what – but since Clara is kidnapped and dying, he can make a reasonable guess that this virtual universe is a living hell.

    Though I do wonder if the difference in attitude is all part of the ‘sliver in his heart’. It was remarkably un-Doctorish to go down the ‘oh, yeah, it’ll kill them, so what, they’re better dead’ route.

     

    #6501
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    I’ve just seen that in the trailer for the June Dr Who Magazine, Moff says “There’s often an element of throwing in some lovely names, and then figuring it out later, but I’ve always had a sort of plan for the Doctor and Trenzalore. Things will be resolved. Things I’ve left hanging in plain sight – and sometimes not in plain sight – will be tied up…”

    Which I think at this stage means all and any crackpot theories are fair game!

    Oh and the June edition comes out 2nd May, have these people no idea of the order in which time runs?

    #6503
    Whisht @whisht

    ah @bobbyfat and @shazzbot – the well was the ‘black hole’ timey wimey thing I think (which as @bobbyfat rightly says is on that exact spot).

    While I’m at it – @bobbyfat really liking your interpretation.

    erm, not much to add but really liked it!

    #6505
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @whisht

    Thank you!

    #6512
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Right <runs offs with some of @scaryb ‘s wine from the sofa>

    What if three versions of the TARDIS collided with each other in The Big Bang – they were all Eleven’s TARDIS from different points in his time stream. The “first” version spun out of control and nearly exploded and landed in Amelia’s garden, the “second” version trapped River inside it piloted by forces unknown, the “third” version is coming – i.e. we’re heading for that point in time now.

    The Doctor, his Friend, her Daughter, his Wife (Hello Peter Greenaway)… As the arc seems (if my Osiris/ Isis musings are correct) to be about the cycle of death and rebirth, somehow another generation is added in the third collision, namely – Clara.

    I know this probably isn’t what’s happening but how cool would it be if it was – a storytelling arc plotting, a la Arabian Nights, rippling out in concentric circles from a big bang in the centre of the three seasons leading up to the 50th.

     

     

    #6516
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Hello all

    I have been in hospital unexpectedly…I think asgill has a voodoo doll…a very effective one!

    Anyway…

    Clara does strike me more as Mary Poppins than anything else at the moment. She just seems to solve problems without drawing attention to herself. And she is capable of bringing the best out of others, being the perfect governess, having an affinity with umbrellas and speaking in ways which dislocate or seem odd, but, in the end, resonate. Then there is the music…

    And the thing about Mary Poppins, of course, is that she had a bag that was bigger on the inside than the out…

    Of course, like the Doctor, Clara can be many things at once. I don’t think she needs to be connected with her “other selves” – I think they are just other aspects of whatever paradox/time line solver/ aspect of the TARDIS / Other Time Lord relative/ Clone from Dr’s Daughter she turns out to be.

    I don’t think she is a trap. She is a solution. But she is not the Doctor’s solution and she does not know what she is.

    I suspect that when she solves the problem of the Doctor’s lost memories/soul she will revert back to a more normal persona. I hope that is Susan, or the TARDIS somehow, but it doesn’t really matter as long as its not another Pond! ( With apologies to Pond lovers everywhere)

    I agree that this story arc will not finish with the end of this season – we will have a cliffhanger where it looks like Smith is lost to us and then he will be restored/regenerated in the Anniversary Special.

    In Snowmen, Clara said she didn’t believe in Ghosts. There have been ghosts of one kind or another in every story since – the ghosts of the wi-fi victims asking for help, the ghosts Clara sacrifices in Rings/the ghosts of Hartnell and Susan/the ghosts of Clara’s family/the ghost or soul of Saldak’s daughter and the appearance of the “ghost” Martian ship, when Skaldak thought they were dead and the obvious and hidden ghosts in Hide. In this week’s story, surely the trip into the TARDIS will yield yet more ghosts ( I fully expect to see a ghost of a previous Doctor explaining some aspect of the TARDIS this week or some other genuine reflection of the past) and then there is a horror story (with a sure possibility of ghosts of some kind) and then the Cyberman story which seems it might be about the Cybermen not being the ghosts of the past everyone thinks they are ( which would hark back to how Jamie first encountered them, as the Silver Piper, in Moonbase). Ghosts everywhere.

    I rave on about all this now because it occurs to me that Clara’s statement ” I don’t believe in Ghosts” may be what activates the saving/restoration of the Doctor.

    He will become a ghost of his former self – by losing his memories, facing his bow-tie double, fessing up to whatever he has done that he has kept secret all this time, facing his reality – but Clara will not believe in that version of the Doctor and will create the better, wizard like mad adventurer we all know so well. And so he will be restored – perhaps with a little help from his friends who he has thought of as ghosts but who actually are with him all the time, in his mind, exactly as Troughton said they were all those years ago in Tomb of the Cybermen.

    All of which makes the Ghostbusters line not as naff as some think it was.

    We will see.

    But, what I will say is this: I don’t care, actually, how it resolves.

    But if the quality is maintained at the levels it has been since Snowmen, the 50th Anniversary will be well served indeed.

    Unlike the previous two Moffat seasons, to misquote another iconic sci-fi/fantasy hero: I have a good feeling about this!

    And, whatever, Smith is rising to the occasion – these Impossible Girl episodes have seen him at his best, most consistent form. Which can only be good.

    These last few days have made me stop and think a lot – and the thing I realise the most is that the very saddest thing about the 50th Anniversary of Doctor Who is not what it will be, but what it can’t be.

    I never imagined a 50th Anniversary story that didn’t feature Sarah-Jane Smith and the Brigadier. And yet, that is the only thing about the Special we can be sure about.

    Life is strange.

    One more odd thought – is Clara a contraption of Clarabelle? If she turns out to be the personification of the Cloister Bell, I am not sure whether I will laugh or cry….always a good reaction. Troughton taught me that.

    All the best to you all.

    X

    #6517
    Whisht @whisht

    @juniperfish – of course!!!

    I missed it before, but how about its actually 11 Tardis’ piloted by 11 Matt Smiths – each of the Doctors crashing into each other!!

    @ardaraith – erm…..

    #6519
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @juniperfish

    “The Doctor, his Friend, her Daughter, his Wife (Hello Peter Greenaway)”

    Superb!! And what a thought, Greenaway does Who. At least the music would be better!

    #6521
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @htpbdet You were talking about ghosts which suddenly made me flap my fins in excitement…

    Because if we think back to the Forest of the Dead/ Silence in the Library episodes, do you remember that the space suits “ghosted” and the consciousness of the person lived on as an echo in the suits for a little while even though the body had been eaten by the Vashta Nerada? That’s what gave the Doctor the idea that he could “save” River’s consciousness/ soul/ ghost to his sonic and upload her to CAL.

    So I’m now more convinced than ever that there is a link back to River and the Library.

    NB I’s so glad you are warming to Smithy – maybe we will see that “S” yet!

     

    #6522
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish

    So THAt’s where it went! Shoulda known 🙂 So now you’re seeing three tardises (tardiii?)?

    I love the idea of it rippling out from the Big Bang (in blue and red concentric circles?). Hmmm, 3 Tardises, 3 Claras, 3 programme periods (a la @bluesqueakpip (Classic, film, Nu))… 3 Doctors…?

    @bobbyfat I’ve read that before about Moffat (eg with the Doctor’s Daughter, it was his idea to keep her alive at the end “just in case”). I’d love him to come back and completely wrongfoot his haters who claim it’s all “thrown together” by doing a tight(ish) 3-season arc. Even if he has to drop in here to get enough ideas to do it LOL.

    #6530
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @scaryb <hic> yessss I’m seeing in triplicate 🙂

    But indeed, the correspondences of threes do seem interesting, particularly given the old Christianity Easter references – is Moff doing some variation of Father, Sone and Holy Ghost”! (see @htpbdet ‘s post on the sofa about ghosts).

    Also Vincent’s painting of the exploding TARDIS does look as if there are three TARDISes now I think about it…

    Yes the concentirc circles of red and blue are both the red shift of the expanding universe and the blue shift of the contracting one – cycle of death and rebirth again you see.

    And you know the purple works too, because that’s the point where it all starts mixing together, red and blue, death and rebirth…

    If this is it, a three season story arc with The Big Bang in the middle I will cover myself in chocolate cake and bow-ties and celebrate for three weeks 🙂

    #6538
    Lula @lula

    @HTPBDET  Hope you are feeling better.  I enjoyed your theorizing, particularly about Clara not being a trap but being a solution.  Also–the ghostbusters line.  It felt rather forced to me but reading your theory puts it in a new perspective.

    #6544
    WhoHar @whohar

    @juniperfish. Three Tardii. Bloody hell.

    Now then. The opening scenes in Eleventh Hour.always struck me as odd. Why was the Tardis seemingly exploding immediately post regeneration. At the time I put it down to some kind of symbiotic link with the Doc but not a very satisfactory explanation.

    Your idea would give a more robust reason.

    To which: does the latest Tardis design begin with BoSJ ie the first “modern Clara” ep. If so then maybe this is another version of the Tardis. Did the Doc refer to his current age anywhere this series? He’s meant to be how old now? 1200? If it is different now maybe this is another clue.

    Too many loose ends….

    #6546
    Anonymous @

    All you young’uns, seeing parallels in ‘Hide’ to Poltergeist and some such.  I stay stubbornly on my Shirley Jackson ‘The Haunting of Hill House’ tribute.  (which, if I am right, makes me more of an S Moffat fan than ever, because that is one creepy, nightmare-inducing horror novel; the quotes below are from the 1963 movie ‘The Haunting’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Haunting_%281963_film%29  based on this novel)

    “The house has a library with a spiral staircase and a conservatory with some eerie statues” [well, OK, music room in this ep, but the original ‘Blink’ had the statues outside / coming into the conservatory].  … “The team explores Hill House the next day, discovering a cold spot [hunh? hunh? 🙂 ] and encountering other supernatural phenomena.”

    “The team discovers the words “HELP ELEANOR COME HOME” on a wall.” [yeah, well, ‘Help Me’ in ‘Hide’ which is close enough for a Cuban cigar, but leaves a wide-open door for mucho bonkers theorising!]

    If I’m right, this is an amazing tribute to an under-tributed writer (well, ‘The Lottery’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery  was on the American middle-school curriculum for decades) who also wrote “The Haunting of Hill House” (“Finalist for the National Book Award and considered one of the best literary ghost stories published during the twentieth century”) which I’m firmly of the belief that Stephen Moffat had in mind when he devised the ‘Hide’ episode.

    #6551
    thedoctordude @thedoctordude

    Another theory I was thinking about, was what if the question “Doctor who?” is not just a question that just the doctor asks, but a question that everyone is asking. We have seen the Doctor slowly erasing himself from the universe. In AotD, Oswin is able to delete him from the database of Daleks, his arch-enemy. He leaves them saying “Doctor who?”. We see the Doctor too is losing his memory. (On a side note it could be that his memory is based on how well known he is in the universe, thus he is losing it.) What if the dark doctor wants to be forgotten? He likes the words “Doctor who?” as stated in tBoST.

    This would make it the ultimate question. We would see that it gets to the point where nobody knows who the doctor is, and the question would be asked “Doctor who?”. Maybe this would allow something to happen like the time lock to be opened or something.

    btw. I don’t think Clara could help him remember who he is at this point. She doesn’t even seem to know enough about him, unless she is a hidden form of somebody else.

    #6556
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    Central Theme, Alot of cool posts. Well it keeps coming back to this for me. ( Clara can do impossible things 🙂

    Someone ponted out it she is like Mary Poppins :), very astute and accurate as well. A sci-fy version  of her.

    I think its setting  up a resolution where (in the same fashion as Amy) , she has this magical moment to save the doctor and restore everything to normal. And like Amy it will take alot of backtracking and thought to figure out the how/why.  While there will be some attempt to explain it in a timey/whimy fashion there may very well be some parts left to our imaginations to work-out.  Sort-of like , well, she just can, because she is who she is, something like that.  Regardless its a fun enough ride, good stories, though this year more then most I do think the plotlines are more similar to a few stories we have already seen.  I think of Matt Smiths first three of seasons (very original stuff for the most part), this year aside from the Clara plot,  not as much new stuff.

    #6559
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    With that noted, Im sure some really good stuff is in the works 🙂

    #6560
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just been re-watching the last two episodes, and the trailer for  JttCotT and am struck by the way Clara is dressed. Very child-like (in comparison to Amy, who always dressed in a sassy and dangerously sexy way). Why the striking difference?

    #6561
    janetteB @janetteb

    @blenkinsopthebrave I noted the child like dress too. Now I need to look back and see if she is always dressed in a child like way. I have thought there is something childlike about the way she acts as well and wondered if it is deliberate. I still don’t fully believe the back story. Also she recalls meeting the Doctor at her mother’s funeral but that was the playground. He hides behind the tree at the funeral and there is no indication that she saw him. Her back was turned the entire time. Maybe the cindy doll is more meaningful than we think. Clara is almost like and invention of the Doctor’s.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6562
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @janetteb nice idea. And it is strange that the action in Hide is identified As taking place on November 25. Strangely close to another date.

    #6564
    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    At last I have access to t’internet. One of the downsides of being in an idyllic, small seaside town surrounded by sea, a gloriously big river with dolphins and turtles is the lAck if a decent signal. A small downside, admittedly.

    I love these bonkers theories, but one thing bothers me. There seems to be general consensus that the good Doctor is losing his memories. The only definite example I can think of to back this was the GI in the Snowmen ep. I liked the meta narrative theory about this – the episodes referring to the GI have been lost.

    The only other example (i can think of) is a mispron of Metabelis. Have I missed other examples? Can anyone fill in the gaps (as it were)?

    I do agree that the Doctor’s obsession with Clara is unhealthy, and indicative his state if mind. The Doctor, for me, is being is increasingly portrayed as “a Madman in a box”, and it’s not all fun.

    Three TARDISES. Bleeding ‘eck.
    Sorry if this reads badly – it’s being written on my iPhone. My big fingers keep hitting the wrong letters 🙂

    #6565
    ScaryB @scaryb

    <waves @blenkinsopthebrave @bobbingbird @janetteb @whohar>

    Good to see the night shift have been working hard :-)

    Couple of early morning thoughts –

    Clara as Mary Poppins – there have been 2 very prominent umbrellas so far – in Snowmen, and the red one in Hide. Didn’t notice any in the other 2 episodes though.

    Clara’s “young girl” dress – that’s an interesting call. I noticed that too – it’s also very red. Not sure if it’s just to differentiate her from Amy, but she also acts younger (the one we’re following anyway), much less experienced than you’d expect from someone in her early 20s in 21st century. There are surprising gaps in her knowledge/memory also – doesn’t know much about the internet, her vagueness about eg what she likes to do (“y’know, stuff”); @Bluesquekpip’s call on the slightly odd family set-up when Clara is a baby.

    Bonkers theory #977.5 (ii) Maybe she’s gradually getting “filled up” with the Dr’s memories/knowledge then has to save him by transferring them back. (Callout to @htpbdet‘s “benign construct Clara”)

    re Dr losing his memories – GI, also couldn’t remember the umbrella stand, lost his train of thought several times this week… little things on the whole, but it’s from little things that big bonkers theories are made!

    #6566
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    re Clara’s clothes, has anyone done a little red riding hood vs big bad wolf theory yet?

    #6568
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    this site is no good for an obsessive compulsive like myself…

    luckily my kids took it in turns to keep daddy up all night last night which gave me plenty of time for fevered theorising, and what i came up with was the bleeding obvious i’d been too awake too notice, namely silence versus music

    silence in the library – silence will fall (big bang) – the Silence – silence will fall when the question is asked etc etc

    vs

    music / Melody / Song

    [insert joke about John Cage’s 4’33 here]

     

    #6571
    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    Er… Claranet?

    Sorry @bobbyfat

    #6572
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet – sorry to hear you’ve been ill. Hope it’s all sorted out now.

    Clara is definitely a ‘solution’ – if you read her other selves; future Clara and Victorian Clara as having been placed in those times and places deliberately, then you can see that she’s there to save the Doctor.

    In the Asylum Clara is in the only position where she can help him. Firstly, no human can survive the Asylum, the nano-wotsits convert them unless they have a bracelet. Secondly, no human could hack into the Dalek’s cloud database. So Clara has to perform the difficult task of being Dalek enough to survive/hack the Daleks, and yet be human enough to remember who she is and to want to save Rory, Amy and the Doctor. Finally, she removes the ‘ghost’ of the Doctor as Greatest Enemy of the Daleks. They now don’t know who he is. Do they even remember the Time War at all? Do they remember any Time Lords? How many ‘ghosts’ did she destroy?

    In The Snowmen she has to firstly meet the Doctor – so she’s being a barmaid in the pub near where he investigates, and secondly in a position to know about the pond. Her role in that adventure is mainly to pull the Doctor out of his sulk; he’s retired. He’s lost in so much grief that he’s decided it’s easiest to freeze up and not feel anything, not do anything. Clara pulls him out of that twice; firstly by getting him involved in the mystery of the Snowmen – and after that’s solved, by making him go look for modern Clara.

    So she removes the ‘ghosts’ of the Ponds. The Doctor starts looking forward, not back.

    In time travel, there really are no such things as ghosts. The Doctor’s current view (Clara’s empathic nature means that she’s almost certainly picked up the Doctor’s real feeling) that he’s talking to ghosts, to the already dead is another mirror-image. The already dead are also the not-yet born.

    But in fact, if time travel exists, those who have lived are still living – in their proper time. Between that date-of-birth and date-of-death they are always alive. As long as you remember them, they can be brought back. They are not ghosts, they are the mirror-image – living people who live in your past and your memory.

    Yes. She’s a Ghostbuster.

     

    #6573
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @bobbingbird

    Claranet – he he – very good 🙂

    #6574
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Clara as Mary Poppins. While watching Snowmen I automatically connected the two. When BoSJ finally aired, I was eager to look for this connection in her more ‘modern’ portrayal but got sidetracked. I’m back now to considering this. It’s interesting to note that the Mary Poppins adventures took place over a total of eight books. There are eight episodes in 7.b, with the thoroughly modern Clara.

    Someone else here (sorry, am not finding the reference) already mentioned the carpet bad that is bigger on the inside.

    @scaryb has noted the umbrella connection.

    Chronologically, the books are ‘out of order.’ Adventures that happened during the time of books 2 & 3, are written about in book 4.

    She arrives with the East wind, and departs with the West…but only after the children have learned their lesson.

    She is utterly unexplained. In other words – Impossible. (in addition to being pert, witty, vain [hello TARDIS reference, “the only image you would esteem”], and high energy)

    #6575
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    Nicely put.

    Just one problem – the Dr would never have been near the Asylum if it hadn’t been for Clara. The main reason the Daleks believe the Asylum-daleks are about to get out of control is the music of Carmen which is originating (presumably) from Clara’s head.  If they hadn’t heard that they’d probably just have continued to ignore the Asylum or low-level monitor from long range.

    And a problem I’ve just realised with my own theory (above) of Clara absorbing all the Dr’s memories/knowledge (as she’s Dr Who the programme) – we already know from Donna that a human can’t contain it all. So is she some kind of software (as suggested before), eg @bobbingbird‘s Clara-net 🙂 <groan!>

    And why DIDN’T the Dr lose all his memories etc in Akhaten? The leaf which had all the futures was completely consumed.

    And kudos to @bobbyfat for the Cage ref – that’s brilliant!

    #6577
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @bobbyfat – I like your thinking! silence vs song

    It fits with many of the motifs, i.e., ghosts, love, the past, the future, memories. He is tossing out so many clues and pathways, I feel saturated.

    #6578
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    Just one problem – the Dr would never have been near the Asylum if it hadn’t been for Clara.

    Yup. If the purpose of the exercise was simply to save the Doctor’s life, Clara should never have gone near the Asylum in the first place, and her presence was accidental.

    If the purpose of the exercise was to remove the ‘ghost’ of the Oncoming Storm, she had to be there. Only a dalek could wipe the database. Only a human would understand why they should.

    And the Daleks would understand that she was so dangerous, only the Doctor could defeat her.

    #6580
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip I understand why Clara was there (re your theory) but I don’t understand why the Doctor was there. Clara needed to be in that position to wipe the database as you say, but why did the Doctor go? He failed to rescue her as she was completely wired-in. The only thing he did was assist in getting her blown up (and as a “release” that’s a bit dark for a known (or about to be known!) character in DW. Brief – Go into the Daleks den and make sure you get me erased from the database, adn i’ll make sure you get blown up before your’e fully dalekised!  Hmm – did he have time to upload her to the sonic? Did she upload herself to the tardis…?).

    #6582
    Anonymous @

    Sorry to hear you’ve been poorly @htpbdet. Hope you’re on the mend now.

    Lots of great theories here. The Clara as Mary Poppins construct I quite like. And very in keeping with the tenor of Moffatt’s era.

    @bobbingbird — you say Claranet as a joke, but I really wouldn’t put it past the Moff….

    @juniperfish and others — I’m inclined to think three TARDISes is right. And as @whohar points out we’ve already seen one ‘exploding’ TARDIS in The Eleventh Hour. Does this lend credence to the idea that it might have all been triggered by Ten’s reluctance to move on, to regenerate? Has this been a broken, incomplete regeneration right from the start? And if so, could it mean that rather than Matt being the Big Bad, it could end up being Ten? Or at least the blame can be laid at Ten’s door. Maybe that’s why he’s back in the anniversary special — to correct his mistake.

    #6587
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – a governess is someone who teaches lessons. Clara is both a nanny (someone who looks after and entertains children) and a governess.

    So what did the Doctor need to learn in Asylum of the Daleks, before the memory of the Doctor was forever lost to the Daleks?

    That’s possibly not going to be apparent until the finale or the 50th – where we’ll find out if this is virtual reality, or Clara is taking the Doctor where he needs to go. (Which might be why the TARDIS dislikes her – taking the Doctor where he needs to go is her job). But my guess would be that he needed to find out that the Daleks could have caught him in a trap and killed him any time they felt like it – but that they didn’t, because

    extinguishing such divine hatred is offensive to us.

    The ice in his heart. He hates them so much they see it as holy; he’s become the monsters’ monster. And in fact, in the S6 finale, the Doctor describes himself (to a Dalek) as ‘the Devil himself’.

    Well, to a demon – ‘the Devil himself’ is the person they follow. The person they admire. The person they model themselves on. And that would be what the Doctor has to turn away from; being admired by the Daleks isn’t exactly admirable.

    #6589
    janetteB @janetteb

    Getting back to  clara’s dress. She does tend to wear a lot of red. Bright red in ASotD, first deep red then blue in the Christmas special. Just re watching it now and I am struck by how differently she behaves. Snowman Clara is self assured and adventurous.  When the Doctor tells her to stay she does the usual, ignore him and take off after him. She seems to personify everything he values in his companions. It is as though she is generated to lure him down of his cloud. I also wonder if her story about being born behind Big Ben is significant and surely the one about the fish is a reference to all the “fish” on the Guardian blog, the episode of course pre dating this wonderful site. IT is also implying that Clara is a creation. Contemporary Clara and Victorian Clara are both connected to stories. Music too tells stories. I haven’t noted a lot of paintings as yet, other than the one of Clara.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6590
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb Oooh, AAh!! <bounces up and down on the sofa>

    Clara.

    Dresses in the Snowmen – red then blue (@juniperfish Add Clara’s dresses to the red/blue lists!!)

    And great call too re how she behaves in Snowmen – following the Dr when he tells her to stay – I completely forgot that. Doh! There’ve been a few people commenting that she doesn’t seem to know how to behave as a companion yet. In last 2 episodes the Dr’s told her to stay put – and she has!  Mind you having died in each of her previous 2 incarnations, you can understand her caution!

    #6591
    Anonymous @

    Just a quick question. Am I the only one who doesn’t think that finding out the Doctor’s name (if indeed we do) is all that big a deal. I know it’s the name of the show and all, but it’s not exactly a game-changing bit of info really, is it?

    #6596
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Agreed @jimthefish.

    In a way, who cares? On the other hand, though, I doubt its the name that matters (unless its Rassilon or Omega or something) but what the name means and why the name should or should not be evoked.

    I suspect the big reveal is more about who he is than what his name is.

    And if he falls at Trenzalore and is asked his name, he will have to speak the truth. But if he has lost his memories, he wont be able to do that. Someone has been manipulating all of this to avoid the fate that Dorian predicted – the baddies did not want him to answer the question, so that ties in with the GI being behind his loss of memory.

    Perhaps his name is the key to the lock on the Time Lords which sealed the Time War and if he utters it or anyone else does, the lock opens?

    @scaryb  @bluesqueakpip

    For all we know at the moment, the woman with whom the Doctor discussed his summons in Asylum may have been not part of the Daleks’ plan, but part of the plan which is either behind Clara or is Clara? If Clara has the power to do the things she does, why could she not set the Asylum adventure up?

    And, most importantly, Clara is never there anyway. Its only a voice the Doctor hears. What we see as the story unfolds is what the Doctor thinks happens – its only when he sees Clara in Snowmen that he can “remember” her in Asylum. She is a Dalek, fighting back full conversion, or so she says. She is actually just a consciousness there, manipulating the events. So Asylum is probably a clue in plain sight. We have seen what the Doctor remembers happening based on things which had not happened to him when Asylum happened to him.

    As timey-wimey as it gets methinks…

    Memory and reality – with the power of love,  they are the recurring themes whatever way you look at it.

    #6600
    thommck @thommck

    @jimthefish i dont think it matters what his name is (unless its Susan!) But more about the reason why he has to say it. River & him made it sound like it would be a tragic occasion

    #6601
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Clara’s clothing –

    Asylum – red (tho as @htpbdet pointed out it’s very doubtful that she’s actually in this form (she’s a dalek) but this is how she sees herself). Confident

    Snowmen – Red for barmaid, blue for governess. Confident

    BoSJ – shades of blue at beginning then red (haven’t checked if she goes back to blue at the end (iplayer still not working). Fairly confident. But… “where am I?

    Akhaten – Blue – unsure (cf red leaf (and why is it so different from the leaf in BoSJ))

    Cold war – Blue (Also that strange scene just after she goes underwater, which is very blue-lit); unsure

    Hide – Blue; unsure and “not happy”

    JttCoftT – Red (attitude TBC)

    @htpbdet Given the woman who summoned the Doctor was most certainly dalekised (eye stalk and all that) I’m assuming she was under Dalek control

    #6602
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Nice work @scaryb – you have caught the red/ blue meme bug I see!

    My theory is (yes still seeing the three TARDISes sans vino) that the Eleventh Doctor has simultaneously been moving towards and away from a pivotal event throughout the entirety of his tenure – red shift/ blue shift, expanding universe/ contracting universe.

    Most likely that event is the TARDISes collision/ Big Bang.

    If the entire Moffat arc has built-in circularity (and I’m betting it does) I will have a narrative-gasm 🙂

    @htpbdet Yes I’ve been convinced for ages that the Doctor’s real name is the key to the Time Lock, just as I’ve been convinced for ages that the Time Lords are on their way back into the narrative.

    Exciting times!

    #6603
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @htpbdet and @juniperfish – Be still my heart!!! I knew from the tone of the Doctor’s voice, and the words he chose in SitL when speaking to River about her knowledge of his name, “there’s only one time I could,” that it was a weighty and non-celebratory event, as mentioned above, “why the name should or should not be evoked.”  If he used his name to seal the time lock, to make the Moment….. then uttering it would be a significant event!  And if undoing the time lock is the event – which could potentially lead to the end of the universe (as the Time Lords were about to do that, in order to save themselves), I can see why the Silence would want the Doctor to remain Silent!  Also, it would mean that Doctor 10 thought River could potentially have been a Time Lord – another reason to give her the burial he did?  (didn’t Time Lords on Gallifrey get uploaded into the Matrix?)

    Either way, this new possibility as a use of the name is terribly exciting!

    #6604
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    One thing that struck from Hide was when the Doctor said ‘I don’t, i’m just running her in’ to Clara (speaking about the TARDIS). Surely if the current TARDIS interior was in existence when the Doctor was mourning Amy & Rory, it would already be ‘run in’.

    the words only struck a chord as the doctor mentioned running in the TARDIS to young Amelia at the end if The 11th Hour (then disappeared for a few years)

    it might be nothing – just struck me as odd…

    #6605
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @theatreguy – yes, it is odd. And while it may prove to be nothing, in the coming next part at the end of Hide, the Doctor says ‘you can have the machine’.

    It might simply turn out that he wants to hide what the TARDIS is – but I thought it odd.

    #6612
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @scaryb

    Given “Clara” was a Dalek, I am not sure it is much of a step for Hannah’s mother ( what was her name) to also be created/controlled by Clara. But then that whole Dalek nano thingy device bothered me – because if the Daleks can do that on the Asylum, why can’t they do it everywhere and subjugate the whole Universe?

    @juniperfish

    Not sure the Time Lords will return. It seems more likely to me that Smith will fall at Trenzalore, answer the question that must never be answered with “I don’t know?”, avert catastrophe, get restored by Clara and sail on.

    But who knows?

    @ardaraith.  Why does it mean Tennant thought River may have been a Time Lord? I don’t understand? Sorry to be dim.

    #6620
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Perhaps his name is the key to the lock on the Time Lords which sealed the Time War and if he utters it or anyone else does, the lock opens?

    @htpbdet – it’s still possible that the Doctor saying his name aloud would open the time lock – but nobody else. Otherwise River would have opened it when she whispered his name into his ear.

    The other point I’d raise is that River told the Doctor his own name to get him to trust her. This kind of implies that it isn’t anything that could be told to lots of people and it certainly implies that Ten would never dream he could tell it to an enemy.

    Granted that Ten didn’t know anything about Trenzalore, his reaction is still a) shocked and b) horrified. Going back to @juniperfish‘s Egyptian mythology, it’s almost like – in telling her his name – he’s given his very soul into her safekeeping.  It both shocks him to the core, and makes him trust River.

    Given that the actual syllables of the dratted thing are likely to be utterly meaningless (barring Rassilon or Omega), it’s definitely going to be the reason he keeps it hidden that will prove to be the important thing. And why telling it to anyone, anyone at all signals that he trusts that person beyond all measure.

     

    #6625
    Whisht @whisht

    hey @htpbdet

    haven’t said yet, but hope you’re feeling better.

    (btw – is it just me or when people say your name in their heads, is there quite a bit of mental spittle in the inner ear?)

    anyway, in terms of the Doctor’s name, well, I’d hardly want to point you to my earlier post (yeah obviously I would otherwise why the link??) but, erm…. its unlikely, but still.

    actually I think that post was me flushing-the-tanks of theories I hadn’t yet put out there, but realised that the series was staring agains so I might as well shoot them off before actual episodes made them irrelevant (ie speculation is far more interesting!).

    #6640
    WhoHar @whohar

    @bkueaqueakpip @htpbdet @whisht

    If the Doc’s name is so powerful, why haven’t one of the Time Lords already invoked it? Someone on Gallifrey must know it.

    Also, the Master knows that “The Doctor” is a title, from which I infer he knows / may know the Doc’s true name.

    All these “Doctor Who” jokes in script may be.just that. Jokes. And nothing more.significant.

    #6642
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @bluesqueakpip @htpbdet @whisht @whohar

    I heard that the Doctor’s name is stated as a mathematical formula in one of the Classic Who series.  If that is the case, his name is functional.  What if….. his ‘formula’ is used to create / harness a TARDIS – or at least build the mechanism capable of containing them ?  There have been many instances recently of the TARDIS behaving strangely, even exploding.  The image for the series finale shows a broken TARDIS window.  What if the TARDIS dies, or needs to regenerate, and the Doctor must use his name (the formula) to construct a new one?

    @htpbdet –  My logic about 10 possibly thinking River a Time Lord was tied to the notion of his name being a key to undue the time lock.  Who else would be around to witness that, but another Time Lord.  It was a long shot.  I am intrigued now with a different line of thinking, namely this discovery that the Doctor’s name is a forumla.

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