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24 April 2013 at 11:27 #6580
@bluesqueakpip I understand why Clara was there (re your theory) but I don’t understand why the Doctor was there. Clara needed to be in that position to wipe the database as you say, but why did the Doctor go? He failed to rescue her as she was completely wired-in. The only thing he did was assist in getting her blown up (and as a “release” that’s a bit dark for a known (or about to be known!) character in DW. Brief – Go into the Daleks den and make sure you get me erased from the database, adn i’ll make sure you get blown up before your’e fully dalekised! Hmm – did he have time to upload her to the sonic? Did she upload herself to the tardis…?).
24 April 2013 at 10:29 #6575Nicely put.
Just one problem – the Dr would never have been near the Asylum if it hadn’t been for Clara. The main reason the Daleks believe the Asylum-daleks are about to get out of control is the music of Carmen which is originating (presumably) from Clara’s head. If they hadn’t heard that they’d probably just have continued to ignore the Asylum or low-level monitor from long range.
And a problem I’ve just realised with my own theory (above) of Clara absorbing all the Dr’s memories/knowledge (as she’s Dr Who the programme) – we already know from Donna that a human can’t contain it all. So is she some kind of software (as suggested before), eg @bobbingbird‘s Clara-net 🙂 <groan!>
And why DIDN’T the Dr lose all his memories etc in Akhaten? The leaf which had all the futures was completely consumed.
And kudos to @bobbyfat for the Cage ref – that’s brilliant!
24 April 2013 at 08:36 #6565<waves @blenkinsopthebrave @bobbingbird @janetteb @whohar>
Good to see the night shift have been working hard
Couple of early morning thoughts –
Clara as Mary Poppins – there have been 2 very prominent umbrellas so far – in Snowmen, and the red one in Hide. Didn’t notice any in the other 2 episodes though.
Clara’s “young girl” dress – that’s an interesting call. I noticed that too – it’s also very red. Not sure if it’s just to differentiate her from Amy, but she also acts younger (the one we’re following anyway), much less experienced than you’d expect from someone in her early 20s in 21st century. There are surprising gaps in her knowledge/memory also – doesn’t know much about the internet, her vagueness about eg what she likes to do (“y’know, stuff”); @Bluesquekpip’s call on the slightly odd family set-up when Clara is a baby.
Bonkers theory #977.5 (ii) Maybe she’s gradually getting “filled up” with the Dr’s memories/knowledge then has to save him by transferring them back. (Callout to @htpbdet‘s “benign construct Clara”)
re Dr losing his memories – GI, also couldn’t remember the umbrella stand, lost his train of thought several times this week… little things on the whole, but it’s from little things that big bonkers theories are made!
23 April 2013 at 22:37 #6522So THAt’s where it went! Shoulda known 🙂 So now you’re seeing three tardises (tardiii?)?
I love the idea of it rippling out from the Big Bang (in blue and red concentric circles?). Hmmm, 3 Tardises, 3 Claras, 3 programme periods (a la @bluesqueakpip (Classic, film, Nu))… 3 Doctors…?
@bobbyfat I’ve read that before about Moffat (eg with the Doctor’s Daughter, it was his idea to keep her alive at the end “just in case”). I’d love him to come back and completely wrongfoot his haters who claim it’s all “thrown together” by doing a tight(ish) 3-season arc. Even if he has to drop in here to get enough ideas to do it LOL.
23 April 2013 at 22:16 #6513Good job the Moff’s Scottish or he might be accused of being racist rather than realist! Amy’s courting techniques and Palmer’s emotional entropy – if they’re typical, it’s no wonder the women are so determined – they have to be! 😉 Rory had a (honorary) Scottish soul and understood! (And he was plastic for 2,000 years which makes him technically older than the Dr, so nae messin wi Mr Pond, right?!!)
23 April 2013 at 22:07 #6510I can still remember the frustration when the end of series blog finished early, and a lot of us ended invading the Red Dwarf thread!
Mwahahahahaha! I missed that. Bet that caused a few ructions.
<rolls off the sofa, laughing. Oops>
23 April 2013 at 21:45 #650823 April 2013 at 21:43 #6507<Jumps on the sofa with a bottle of red. Anyone…?>
@craig – haha – it’s your forum too, no getting out of it that easily! I’d tend to agree re letting series 7 speculation evolve on the current episode thread. It’s surprising where it springs off to sometimes, but it usually curves back, and it’s handy being able ot scroll up. Otherwise it’s like nesting but in different trees.
Graun closed? They did that a week or 2 back with the Daleks one (I think, one of the old ones anyway) @phaseshift complained and got apology and promise to reopen from a mod, but I don’t think they did. The classic Who threads tend to be more peaceful, but quieter, on the whole (interesting). I think An Unearthly Child is still open, but don’t think any posts on it for ages. They need to rethink the format if they want to keep one open, as people naturally gravitate to the new one. Maybe they should check out ours 🙂
23 April 2013 at 08:33 #6444@bluesqueakpip – apologies – you also mentioned 10 as possible back-up
23 April 2013 at 08:22 #6443@Shazzbot re multiple Doctors paradox – in (2) words – Time Lords (interfering)
Welcome to the dark side. Good call on 10.5 being useful re memory back-up.
Hmmm <strokes chin and looks about to see if @chickenelly‘s pipe is around>
23 April 2013 at 08:14 #6440Final thought before work – maybe all of Eleven’s problems go waaay back to his regeneration. The big bad is Ten, who still doesn’t want to go and won’t let go completely!
23 April 2013 at 08:10 #6438Just checking – does anyone know if the last episode of series 7 is the only Moff epi still to come? Although I have to say that Neil Cross seems to be deputising well for him, in scattering a quite ridiculous amount of clues/red-blue herrings. (I chuckle when I imagine the brief he got from Moffatt – the list of items/refs (bow ties, red/blue, rose, Cumbria, doubles, Tardis hissy fit, love), dates/numbers etc to fit in – amazing he had any space for story at all! (yet it felt remarkably integrated)
Anyone notice any random 27s this week? (@chickenelly)
23 April 2013 at 08:02 #6436@bluesqueakpip No saying which versions of Ten and Rose will be in the 50th. Tho there may be fan uprisings if it’s “only” 10.5 🙂 I like your thinking tho
23 April 2013 at 07:57 #6434The name of the Doctor is.. The Doctor
I like 🙂
It’s very sneaky in its precision. Perfect get-out clause. Tells you everything and absolutely nothing!
@whohar A few people have mentioned that about the exploding Tardis (Clara in it/cause of her splitting etc). River was also in it at that time – would that make a connection between them? And the unexplained big scary voice was there too.
re the umbrella stand – could be a reminder that the Tardis has had a redesign. Lots of dualities/doubles in this series and previous – Doctor, Clara and Tardis in 7. And Clara watching the doctor on a screen again in Hide
23 April 2013 at 06:10 #6425The hints about the ultimate question and the title of the last episode have been signposting “Doctor Who??” so much that I am deeply suspicious it will be nothing of the sort!
But so long as they don’t actually reveal his real name and/or origin then Ill be happy! (And I’m with @phaseshift on the Cartmel Masterplan. Looms indeed. Pah!! (HaHa also @haveyoufedthefish)).
Being Moffat I suspect the end of 7.2 will see us going –
So THAT’s it!
Of COURSE!
🙂
<2 min pause. Cue mass furrowing of fan-brows>
But… but… that only works if …, but then…, so it can’t…
Cue much shaking ofpuzzled heads!>
😉
OTOH I can see the name of the Doctor being a strong motivating force (the McGuffin – yay!) for his enemies or for the Doctor himself, if he’s lost his memory completely.
My prediction is still that the Dr is incapacitated (since…?) by the GI. Clara has to make him remember who he is (unlike the last reboot when it was Amy who had to remember). Memories upload completes, Dr remembers and “wakes” up (much gnashing of teeth by GI) – alternate reality that he’s been a prisoner in (doing time?) melts away, to reveal…?! (eg Amy suddenly realising she’s not the ganger but is actually a prisoner and about to give birth). Cue end titles and massive 6 month wait to resolution in the 50th.
23 April 2013 at 05:57 #6424I think Moffat is teasing us with all these lovely little clues hoping that, like the Dr, we will be distracted by the details and miss the great big elephant about to stomp on us.
HaHaHa – HIGHLY likely!
discovering Clara’s identity will create the crisis which drives the Anniversary special.
Agree with that. Or the crisis is what reveals who/what she is. I think the Clara we are following at the moment is “ordinary” and the first. She seems much less experienced and confident than the others – something that could develop as she travls with the Doctor. She may or may not evolve into one or both of the others or they may be copies or echoes of her. The self-fixing paradox idea is intriguing though (and is compatable with her starting off ordinary).
23 April 2013 at 04:23 #6421Grisenko as in the Professor is an anagram of King & Rose
So another Rose reference too!Nice spot 🙂
22 April 2013 at 20:25 #6403unless the finale cliffhangers into the 50th
Don’t think there’s much doubt about that 😀
But I agree -love will probably save the day eventually! (Dr Who is a child of the 60s after all 😉 )
22 April 2013 at 20:21 #6401Wow! So many posts and bonkers new theories 😀
@lula Great spot on Cumbria esp with the link to Oswald and Oswin. Anyone spot any Cumbrian refs in Cold War?
@juniperfish – you’re on fire at the moment (both hot fire and steely determined cold fire!) Your recent post re Alice refs reminded me – I was thinking similar, when it occurred to me that the leap thro the wormhole is not unlike Alice jumping down the rabbit hole. He meets, not a white rabbit but a white suited time traveller
Ghosts in general – Clara’s comment in the graveyard at the end of the Snowmen re don’t believe in ghosts
22 April 2013 at 07:35 #6345You are ALL brilliant!!
@whisht – Matt Smith acting each of the other Doctors 🙂
@bluesqueakpip – if that dialogue isn’t in the 50th it damn well should be 🙂
@whohar – Agree re Rose ref, good spot. And sister – now there’s an idea that I don’t think has come up before – impressed! Mighty relieved to hear the thinking bath is on its way 😉
@blenkinsopthebrave <waves excitedly> Sorry to disagree slightly for 1st communication(!) but River only knows the Dr from 10 onwards, otherwise Tennant would have remembered her when they met in SitL She remarked that 10 was a younger version of “her” Doctor, which leaves it wide open for her to have relationship with post-11 incarnations. Heck, she might even be 2-timing the Dr with himself (depending who’s in what timestream and when!)
They are certainly pushing us to think that the ultimate question is “Doctor Who?” They’d better not tell us!!!
21 April 2013 at 20:21 #6311We still have free choice – to turn left or right. To travel with the doctor or stay on earth
21 April 2013 at 19:41 #6305Link to interesting background for Hide, on official Who website
Mentions Caliburn House as referencing Excalibur (@bluesqueakpip) and links that to Battlefield (ref me!)
Ha! Should’ve read this yesterday, would’ve saved a lot teasing out, haha.
Also mentions refs to the Bible, Carry On films and Sherlock (A Study in Scarlet) Which also suggests to me that any reference, no matter how far-flung it seems, shouldn’t be rejected just on that basis! Keep digging everyone 😀
21 April 2013 at 18:44 #6301@Shazzbot – re the Doctor as half-human – even I would stop watching if they did that! I think we’re safe on that one, especially the way Matt is playing him as being very alien.
When you look around at the other races the Dr has encountered (albeit seen thro human creators’ distorting lens) it actually makes sense that he likes humans! He has stated at times that some of the qualities he most admires in us is empathy and our resilience. We look a bit like Time Lords physically and we keep him grounded when he will tend to look at things from “all of time and space” big perspective. As he says at the end – what lonely monsters need is a companion
@haveyoufedthefish – re the Doctor’s sliver of ice – his coldness is compared with Palmer’s who admits he lies to protect the people he loves from having to face the horrors of what he has had to do (ie sending soldiers off to die for the greater good) and now has to live with. So the Dr may be coming colder/darker but it’s from the best of intentions. He has no-one to share the darkest stuff with. No psychiatrist’s sofa for the Dr.
And reposting the thought that occurred “in the other place” – ice in his heart – in both his hearts, or only in one of them?
21 April 2013 at 18:30 #6299@juniperfish – My pleasure (heh-heh-heh). Feel free to pass them round 😉 (And watch out for the daffies – remember the Autons)
21 April 2013 at 16:21 #6288@haveyoufedthefish 100% agree with you re meritocracy very important in Who. You become special depending on how you react to circumstances. Turn Left exemplifies it. Donna turns out to be special, but only because she makes the choice. You see how the world would have been if she’d chosen differently. Time Lords as aristocracy makes me very uncomfortable. (Hey, not my fault! I’m a child of the 60s). And the Doctor as part-human as per the McGann and Cushing films is just plain wrong!
21 April 2013 at 16:11 #6287@phileasf Lovely post re Carlyle; it’s a tough life being a writer! Great quotes too.
haha – welcome the world of bonkers theorising, seeing clues everywhere. Gets us all in the end.
And I like your #712B theory – Clara IS ordinary! We’re assuming she’s someone who has been split/fractured/cloned/manufactured/chamelon arched, but maybe she somehow only provided the pattern/blueprint, that the other 2 we’ve seen are not actually her, just “copies” (in the loosest sense!) of parts of her. (Chameleon Arch still valid possibility in that case – a more naive, innocent, apparently harmless version of herself is created for her to hide in).
Re companions – have been many and varied. Dr has habit of finding them when they are at crossroads/crucial point in their lives (which obv makes more dramatic sense apart from anything else. If they were comfortable/settled in their lives they presumably wouldn’t chose to fly off with a complete stranger in a strange blue box to who knows where/when!). Ace in McCoy era had arc-type story. I’ve blotted the squeaky one from memory so don’t know about her. Leela was scarcely ordinary! I think the Davison era companions were also woven more into the stories but you’d need one of that period’s experts to confirm this.
21 April 2013 at 15:22 #6280moffatts maxim that it is all about the companions journey, not the doctors.
I agree, need to keep that in sight. And yes, agree, this is the start of Clara’s journey. She’s very much still learning. The Dr is surprised when she doesn’t automatically do what all the other companions have done – she stays when he tells her to (but he expects her to follow). She’s scared, she doesn’t like the reality of dead bodies, her mind’s overwhelmed by the enormity that is “all of time and space” and how small individual humans actually are. She’s suddenly feeling less significant than an ant in the doctor’s presence. (And his answer isn’t exactly reassuring). But she wants to learn and she likes the idea of adventure. And agree too re suggestion she’s at least a bit empathic. I’m not happy could also be her way of saying actually I’m absolutely terrified out of my wits but I’m not going to say so!
Amy was ordinary girl till the crack appeared in her wall. It wasn’t the Dr who made her special, it was the circumstances. Although… it’s never been resolved why the crack was in her wall. Could’ve been random, but could it be anything to do with the stress on time that was presumably created when her daughter moved to Ledworth, but disguised as her best friend…?
21 April 2013 at 15:03 #6277our site and Dan’s blog as mirror universes with a watery portal in between
Perfect!
Hmm… just struck me though – watery portal – is it all a big fishy conspiracy…?!
😉
21 April 2013 at 14:55 #6274@Shazzbot Re Doctors getting progressively younger – I believe Moff is on record as saying they were looking for older actor after Tennant. Then they found Matt Smith. Who still seems to be relatively good at “blind” casting eg Hilaire being Emma’s distant descendant.
Interesting comments above re scared Dr (no bow tie?), unscared Dr (bow tie on) (Someone else posted a brilliant post about that last night).
ardaraith Was it not the bow tie he used to tie the doors? Which is later picked up in the forest. It looked a mighty flimsy way to keep out something so noisy! But agree red could be significant. Clara wears/carries a lot of red. Umbrella, bag etc Blood is red. And then there’s “crimson, petrichor..” etc from The Doctor’s Wife. Red for danger, but also for happiness if you are Chinese.
21 April 2013 at 14:46 #6273Chalk circles – there was a “magic” 1 in Battlefield too (McCoy epi)
The Dr was def doing something when he drew the circe – it defined the area of extreme cold.
Who flew the Tardis? I think it was the Tardis herself rather than Clara (Clara has her back to the consul, and you don’t see her pushing buttons). It’s her appeal to the Tardis to save her Doctor that overrides her dislike/suspicion of Clara. The Tardis makes it back because she gets assistance from Emma’s wormhole, ie she doesn’t need to get back under her own steam.
The Tardis’ creation of the image of Clara as the person she’d most respect has to be significant. As others have pointed out you’d expect (esp after Rings of A (also scripted by Cross)) that it would be her mother.
Family love is being set up (blood calls to blood)
20 April 2013 at 22:41 #621120 April 2013 at 22:38 #6210And a big sofa 🙂 (welcome @branfish)
AND there’s an edit function. Not only time, but posts can also be rewritten here!
20 April 2013 at 22:35 #6209@juniperfish Also re time being relative – for the time traveller 3 minutes, for the humans several centuries. I loved all the relative timey wimey bits in this episode. Underlines the idea that time travellers have a bit more time, and maybe many more shots, to work on things than the rest of us. (What if the Doctor’s split into many versions of himself because he keeps trying to put things right (with benefit of hindsight (or would that be foresight?)) and keeps getting it wrong so has to keep going to tweak it again back till the universe fractures from overload of Doctors…?
20 April 2013 at 22:07 #6203@juniperfish – yes re “paradoxes resolve themselves” very much signposted. Did @haveyoufedthefish not post something about this recently re the stronger the paradox the more energy it has to resolve itself (if that doesn’t sound too paradoxical)
20 April 2013 at 22:02 #6202Re dalekisation – the metebilis 3 crystal was postioned in a very blue dalek-eye-stalk sort of a way, I thought.
@bluesqueakpip – ta for repost. Fab work as usual. I’m sure you’ll also come up with something for the exact date! 😉
Love the Doctor teaching Clara how to be a companion (cf last week when she stayed put when he told her to do so, but the last thing he was expecting was that she’d obey. (Victorian Clara and Asylum Clara were noticeably less obedient). And the wee assistants/companions aside.
@juniperfish – no they weren’t, LOL. Not blinking (otheriwse the lights seem to flicker); wondering why I’ve got tally marks on my arms…!
20 April 2013 at 21:44 #6201I also just posted in the other place – this series very few people seem to know who the Doctor is (the daleks in Asylum at the beginning but not at the end. And that was Clara’s doing)). Except the GI. And he/it seems to be waitng for the Doctor to show up.But the Doctor doesn’t remember the GI.
20 April 2013 at 21:41 #6200Not sure if this should really go here, but not sure where else.
Re the Question Which Must Never Be Asked – because it’s been spotlit so much we’re all assuming the question is Doctor Who? What if it isn’t? Who brought it up? Dorium. Not exactly the most non-duplicitous witness! The people who don’t want it asked are the “baddies”. Maybe it’s a good thing (from our perspective) if it’s asked. eg the answer is the key to a programme which unlocks the Doctor’s memories.
There’s much in this episode to promote the idea of being wary of catching the wrong end of the stick, of jumping to conclusions thro not seeing the whole picture.
@juniperfish – statues and angel refs in the background in the music (music!) room – agreed
20 April 2013 at 21:33 #6196@chickenelly LMAO at thought of Tardis hiding umbrella stand from Clara. (that’s cos she knows Clara is going to call her an old cow!)
20 April 2013 at 21:31 #6195my iplayer not working 🙁
Wants to reinstall but won’t
Wiped all my stored episodes and can’t download the new one.
Any suggestions?
20 April 2013 at 21:28 #619420 April 2013 at 21:27 #6193Lots of stuff to play with 🙂 Lots of great posts above.
I keep coming back to this Clara seeming very young/inexperienced, even though she’s supposed to be, what, 26? especially compared to the really feisty other versions.
@bluesqueakpip – absolutely brilliant post on the bow ties. I’d noticed the deliberate taking off and putting on, but hadn’t put it all together. And I LOVE the Snow Queen comparison. Slivers of ice can be removed 🙂
So what have you got on 25-11-74??!
@juniperfish And yes, good spot on the umbrella – it’s very signposted, very red; seems like it’s there to set up a gag, and yet… it could be just because the Tardis has had recent makeover and hat-umbrella stand isn’t a feature in this design, but then again…
Yay!!! the bow ties theory is rocking again 😀
20 April 2013 at 18:57 #6160Lost souls
20 April 2013 at 18:54 #6157OOOH! And flickering lights are back. LOTS of them 😀
20 April 2013 at 18:53 #6155<excited squealies!>
Love it when unbelievers proved wrong and theories are proven to definitely be theories and not just accidental references 🙂 Lots of Claras. The Tardis doesn’t like her (yet). Pocket/multiple universes referenced. “Ghosts”. Clara called the Tardis an old cow!!! Big question re if the current Clara is the same as the other 2 we’ve met. (Great)Grand-daughters again. Very timey wimey. And the Doctor having to tell Clara how assistants/companions usually behave, lots of meta-references. Thought the pacing was v good too, and the actors were great.
A refill of the Chilean red then off to the Grauniad for a bit. Sat evenings are usually positive on there. 🙂 See you all on the other side!
17 April 2013 at 04:24 #5909@juniperfish Hahahahaha. Great cupcakes (even down to the dot of blue on the eyestalk). Yummy (and LOL @haveyoufedthefish)
17 April 2013 at 04:09 #5907@jimthefish Agh! Couldn’t resist the link! <slaps own wrist>
Interesting tho – esp when you look at where said crystal is positioned…! Also cameras… old idea of cameras capturing souls….? And yes, that last one 🙂
17 April 2013 at 03:50 #5905@polaris and @lesaubiers (looks like you’ve cracked the @ thing btw It’s just @ then the name (no space between))>
You leave this board for a few hours and it explodes, LOL. Loving all the new theories, great ref spotting.
Hard to know if they are dropping clues or just tributes to previous Doctors. I do like the idea that each of this series refs 1-7 leaving the 50th for the 3 of nuWho. Fits with Moff’s comments about mainly looking forward. What about 8 tho? Anyone know what Paul McGann’s up to at the moment?
Same with the locked Tardis door and translator circuit. Is it just to show that Clara is new and remind the audience of what the Tardis can do, or….?! I LOVE the idea that she can’t get in because it’s Doctor 1’s Tardis. OTOH the Doctor and companions have a long tradition of getting split up, esp at crucial moments. He has been noticeably leaving the door open this series.
Delighted my pet theory of dalekised Doctor is gaining ground. Tho I’m beginning to be less convinced, LOL. But I do still think that the doctor is incapacitated in some way (split personality/fractured/multi-dmensional) and his memories need to be down/uploaded again. And I still think those memories are from the last 50 years, not just this series As with ganger Amy I strongly suspect 7.2 will end on a massive turns-everything-you-think-you-know-inside-out cliffhanger.
@polaris – I do like your thinking re bookending tho… But that works with the GI as well, who is now my prime suspect and has a track record of separating people’s minds and bodies.
And @bluesqueakpip‘s musical passkey (a ref to Prof Song…?)
15 April 2013 at 13:06 #5653@htpbdet Re the Ballad of Russell and Julie – yes, it’s brilliant. This one too. They both appeared at the same time. Both seem to get taken down fairly regularly (presumably by BBC) but usually reappear. 😉 (They were both pushing 1 million views from the original upload when they disappeared the first time!)
15 April 2013 at 06:40 #5639@craig Just reinforcing what everyone else has been saying (and my recent messages) You’re doing a great job and if you ever need help/support (£s ootherwise), just ask. Daleks, Trolls, Botnets and GIs beware! 🙂
@bluesqueakpip‘s suggestion for a webste motto would get my vote 🙂
Oh, and a big hi to all the newbies. Great to see the forum filling up.
15 April 2013 at 03:39 #5637Only thing about the Doctor being the major part of his own story is that Moff interview from earlier this year, where he says the Doctor is the constant, that the companion is the one that things happen to… Then again, Rule no 1…
But that is definitely an odd scene when she seems to be underwater. It looks to me that she is mentally not on the sub, but gets pulled back into the reality with the voices trying to bring her round. Now that obv works if she’s half-drowned but also if she’s still dalekised Clara, or similar.
We’re assuming this Clara is the original… I like how she’s being portrayed in these stories – not yet as sassy and confident as the other 2 incarnations. She’s brave, but still quite innocent and very unsure of where she fits in (naturally as these are her first adventures). Her asking the Dr to confirm how she did made me think she’s very nervous that she screwed up and is trying to persuade herself otherwise. The Dr’s reassurance was a lovely touch. (He was quick enough to tell the cattle prodder he was an idiot).
And yes, lots of roses and red (possibly of the fishy persuasion) about.
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