S33 (7) 10 – Hide

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  • #6727
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    though it works almost as well his daughter too

    @haveyoufedthefish – yes. I think Moffat’s hiding the solution from the mad theorisers (i.e. us) by making different solutions equally possible. Running through them again, I think we’re still basically down to three main solutions:

    Possibility 1. Clara is a copy of the Doctor – a ‘mirror image’.

    Possibility 2. Clara is a daughter/granddaughter of the Doctor.

    Possibility 3. Clara IS the Doctor. Either pre-Hartnell or the reborn future Doctor.

    All three solutions would result in her behaving like a very young Doctor. Possibilities 1 and 3 would explain the ‘Doctor Who’ dates in her life-story. Possibility 2 would mean that the ‘Doctor Who’ dates don’t really refer to her personally, they’re a reference to her ‘re-starting’ the show; the Doctor will again be a wanderer in space and time, travelling with his child/grandchild.

    #6728
    Polaris @polaris

    @bluesqueakpip or she’s just an ordinary girl, hidden among these great/fun theories in plain site, and it’s the doctor that the focus should be on…

    #6729
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    Passing thought – the Tardis seems to have been transformed from the white walled, peaceful enclave of old into some dark, dank, industrial place, which it’s dangerous to wander too far into (he’s mortally concerned when Clara wanders down there, something is clearly lurking down there.) and – crucially – is now heavily locked down. We’ve seen hints of this in Doctors Wife (e.g. passworded doors), the next ep really ups the ante.

    Theory – after Gallifrey is put in a Time Lock, Shada (Doctor Who’s Arkam Asylum) no longer has wardens! So the doc transfers all the crazy inmates into the depths of the tardis and locks it all off, with plenty of booby traps.

    Possible Clue? The key to Shada was an innocent looking academic book on history(The Worshipful and Ancient Law of Gallifrey) and the prison opened by turning to the last page … seem a bit familiar?

    #6730
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @polaris – well, yes, but that’s boring.

    Remember our mission statement. 😀

     

    #6731
    Polaris @polaris

    @bluesqueakpip I actually think that if Clara was ‘normal’ this could be one of most original companions nu-who have had. They don’t need to have the universe revolving around them or be a space-time anomaly to be interesting 🙂

    #6732
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @polaris – sorry, in hindsight the above might have sounded a bit rude.

    What I meant to say was that Clara being an ordinary (ordinary except for having the entirely human psychic ability of empathy) human and the problem being the Doctor is kind of the ‘in plain sight’ solution. Agreed. She’s ordinary. Her ‘impossibility’ is a distraction from the visible evidence that the Doctor’s going increasingly nuts: paranoia, memory loss, do as I say or I kill us all. This madness is going to lead to some horrible disaster (probably involving The Silence) in which a perfectly ordinary girl gets split into three parts across time.

    Entirely possible: I just don’t believe it. 🙂

    #6733
    thedoctordude @thedoctordude

    First of all love the new theories coming out on Clara. Really some interesting stuff.

    Just a thought about her though. There doesn’t seem to be any definite proof that she doesn’t know who the doctor is or isn’t aware of who she. She seems very good at solving problems that come up, even more so then the doctor.

    The area she struggles is in being a good companion. She is always wondering if she is being a good companion and “passing the tests”.  What if she is aware of who she is (daughter, granddaughter, doctor, etc.) , but trying play “the companion” so he doesn’t suspect? This would explain why when asked about what she does she says “you know just stuff”.

    Also, what if the doctor’s “dark side” is really just the master? Probably been brought up before, but just crossed my mind…

    #6734
    Polaris @polaris

    @bluesqueakpip not taken as rude at all 🙂

    I LOVE reading all the theories, and that’s why I’m a member of this forum!

    But maybe the most bonkers theory of all is that a simple ordinary girl could possibly manage to do what the doctor is failing at (due to his memory loss, darlekisation or otherwise): beating the monster on ‘rings’, convincing/delaying the ice warrior, convincing the TARDIS to go to the other bubble universe which was dangerous etc?

    As you’ve all pointed out, I too think  the most prominent themes are ‘Love’ and the Doctor’s (forgetful) memory:

    “when are we going?”

    “always if I can remember how to do it” – surely this is a normal zip around in time in the same spacial place?

    #6735
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thedoctordude

    Yes, she could well know who the Doctor is. If she’s the Doctor’s granddaughter, her mum could have told her. Looking back at the prequel to Bells of St John, two things come across very clearly:

    Firstly, she’s very empathic. She picks up on the Doctor being sad and lonely, and her last line about him is “I was talking to the sad man.”

    Secondly, her Mum told her not to talk to strange men. And, indeed, promptly takes Clara away. Normal eighties ‘stranger danger’? Or “don’t talk to strange men” because I know that one day, a very strange man indeed is going to come looking for you?

    #6736
    thommck @thommck

    @thedoctordude Intrigued by the dark Doctor being the Master. Don’t think it could work because he is locked up with the rest of the Time Lords but intriguing because I’m now wondering if when a time lord regenerates he can take someone else’s identity or if it’s more a case of he can “will” certain features like male/female, short/tall.

    Although The Doctor implies he could be a woman he always goes on about being ginger and he hasn’t even been able to manage that!

    @bluesqueakpip Do you think there are just 3 versions of her then? I always thought there is likely to be 100s scattered around!?!

    I’m wondering if there is an animal, germ or mythical creature that get’s split apart and does it follow a cycle of re-joining then splitting again? I seem to recall some story about monsters being cut up and kept in separate places so they don’t have their full power … *dons thinking cap*

    #6737
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck – yes, I think there are only three Clara’s. Mainly because I had a serious attack of numerology after Bells of St John/Rings of Akhaten and worked out that the dates in Clara’s various life stories all match in some way to important dates in Doctor Who. Even her mother’s date of birth matches with the first broadcast of the previous children’s SF series produced by Sidney Newman.

    Doctor Who has died twice (as the Doctor says in the preview, “I met her twice before and I lost her both times”). So has Clara. So I think there’s only three of them, representing Classic Who, the Movie Who and Nu-Who. Or, in-show, past, present and future. The past and the future both died – the Doctor has to learn to live in the present. 🙂

    #6738
    Anonymous @

    Some excellent theorising going on here. Plenty here to an outright civil (Time?) war among Whovians if even half of it proves to be right…

    #6758
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Random pondering that may or may not make sense. Blame it on the faux Mexican food. I need to give up and realise Cork can not offer me true TexMex. 🙁

    The Medusa Cascade. It’s a time rift that is somehow connected to Gallifrey. The Daleks pulled the 27 planets there when they wanted to send a blast that would destroy the timelock – or am I getting those confused. Regardless, it is a rift in time and space. It was inside that rift that Ten decided he didn’t want to regenerate and the meta-crisis Doctor came into being – which technically made the hand the 11th Doctor, right? But what else can happen when you send out regenerative energy in a time rift? I don’t know, but could it be Clara?

    I watched Matt’s intro to JttCotT today (before the faux mex) and he says something rather curious: that the TARDIS is more powerful than all of us…with a mind of its own and a soul of its own and ideas of its own… How are new TARDIS born? TARDIS coral?

    #6760
    Lula @lula

    @ardaraith You’re in Cork? I lived there in 1997. (Ballincollig for most of my time there.) I loved it and want to go back–husband and daughters in tow–because I still have many friends in that area.

    And I like this new theory of yours…must think on it some more.

     

     

    #6761
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Breakfast time in the colonies, and have just read the night’s postings. Wow!

    To adapt one of Benedict Cumberbatch’s best lines in Sherlock:

    This blog is on fire!

    #6763
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @lula – Ah, yup. We are east of the city, outside Midleton. Suffering through 15 months of winter!! It was spring just the other day, at least..I thought it was. Today is baltic again, with hail! oh, the joys of it all. What brought you here?

    #6764
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @blenkinsopthebrave Goodmorrow to you! It’s tipple o’clock on a Friday night here.

    @ardaraith Hmmn interesting you should bring up the Medusa cascade – I remembered a line from The Fires of Pompeii spoken by the prophetess there:

    “Your real name is hidden. It burns in the stars, in the Cascade of Medusa herself”

    This line is what made me first suggest that the Doctor’s name could be the key to the time lock on Gallifrey – that somehow, the Doctor inscribed his name in the Medusa Cascade as a seal…

    #6766
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    How are new TARDIS born? TARDIS coral?

    @ardaraith -There was a sadly deleted scene in which 10.5 and Rose were given a piece of TARDIS coral by Ten – so they could grow their own TARDIS. Russell T Davies says he still considers that canon.

    Must be something in the air about awful Mexican food – I’ve just made a batch of tortillas that turned out a total failure. I ended up baking the wretched things into tortilla chips, or rather, corn biscuits. Rock hard corn biscuits…

    #6767
    Whisht @whisht

    hiya – skim reading.

    Is the new theory that the Doctor is a biscuit?

    (trying to keep up)

    😉

    #6769
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    yes, he’s a jammy dodger

     

    #6770
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht – of course. He’s a jammy dodger! 😉

    NINJA’D!

    (Or on this site, should that be GANGERED! ?)

     

    #6771
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Rock hard corn biscuits…

    @bluesqueakpip – You don’t work at the Mexican place in Cork, by any chance??

    Hmm, so the meta-crisis Doctor and Rose were “supposed” to get their own TARDIS.  Wow.  How would that have worked out?  10.5 was human.  How long would it have taken the TARDIS to ‘grow’?

    #6773
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @ardaraith – I promise you that a) I’m nowhere near Cork and b) I’m eating the bloomin’ things myself.

    If we see 10.5 in the 50th, we may find out. There’s nothing to stop Moffat ‘explaining’ that Ten secretly hid the coral in 10.5’s pocket or something. 🙂

    #6777
    thommck @thommck

    I asked my 8 y/o what he thought we would see in the TARDIS tomorrow. He said “because the doctor is getting eveil now I think you’ll see a room full of all his previous companions trapped in freezers”

     

    Very dark! Also shows how the dark Doctor is even obvious to younger viewers not just nutjob theorists 😉

    #6778
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Ooh, just doing a rewatch of Hide and noticed that the music room has a very centrally placed harp.

    In The Five Doctors, the Fifth Doctor plays the Harp (naturally, it’s the Harp of Rassilon) which is a key to the Secret Room (probably of Rassilon).

    So this adventure contains a musical instrument which was once a key to a secret. Hmmm…

    I more and more like the idea that we’re seeing the longest flashback in television history, with the Doctor frantically trying to remember how to get out of the mess he’s in. 🙂

    #6780
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @thommck

    a room full of all his previous companions trapped in freezers

    Yikes! Your kid has me diving behind my sofa 🙂

    And what do you mean “bonkers theorists”? I feel sure our little corner of the Whoniverse is actually the equivalent of the Library. Vashta Nerada may maraud outside, inside we have infinity 🙂

    #6782
    Lula @lula

    @ardarith I was in Cork on an internship for my university–that’s the simple explanation. There’s more to it than that, but I’m in a vehicle driving across Virginia right now and on my phone–too much to type on this touchscreen. But I loved Cork–traveled all over the Republic and that area was my favorite. Specifically, Kinsale!

     

    Due to being on my mobile, I can’t link it here–but Blogtor Who has a *very* interesting spoiler regarding the finale. Think–Daleks!

    #6784
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Could I pop my ‘unofficial moderator’ hat on and remind everyone that both Spoilers and rumours of Spoilers belong in the Spoiler thread. No hints in other threads, please.

    And please, make sure messages in the spoiler thread contain enough ‘this is a spoiler’ to hide them from those reading the ‘recent posts’ scroll.

    I will now return you to the bonkers theorising 🙂

     

    #6785
    Lula @lula

    Noted, but I don’t think I dropped any sort of spoiler here, nor did I link to the site or reveal any pertinent information. But please forgive me for upsetting you.

    #6786
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lula – no problem – but pretty well all we officially know about the finale episode is its title and the accompanying poster. If you are just speculating that Monster X might be involved, then obviously you aren’t dropping any spoilers. If Blogtor Who suggests they are involved, that’s a spoiler.

    However, once something is announced on the BBC site or the BBC America site (or in the Radio Times), it’s news.

    Now, everyone completely confused? Good. 🙂

    #6788
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Can anyone explain to me why the Cloister Bell starts to ring?

    #6789
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip  Well my theory is that the cloister bell rings when it is the “eleventh hour”…

    i.e. when the Doc is in pretty dire straits (in this particular case trapped in a bubble universe).

    This, timey-wimely, leads back to the three season time-loop theory that the Doctor’s TARDIS in the Eleventh Hour was spinning out from the explosion in the Big Bang when he collided with other versions of himself.

    We need to do a post of all the times we’ve heard the cloister bell, to cogitate mightily upon…

     

    #6790
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Thanks @bluesqueakpip and @lula

    IF EVERYONE COULD JUST READ THIS:

    On series 5 I was spoiled because I found out what was going to be in “The Pandorica” before it aired. In the week before “The Angels in Manhatten” we had, well, children, running onto the Who blogs screaming that the Statue of Liberty was an Angel. Because Canada had released a screenshot that the Daily Mail had picked up. I would have preferred to remain ignorant. I do not intend to participate on the Guardian blogs before the final episode because of this.

    Nothing kills discussion and the kind of speculation we enjoy on these threads faster than it becoming spoiler ridden. At the end of the run, you can guarantee that true spoilers will come thick and fast.

    We do have a thread for it, and I ask you to use it freely AND add text so that those who do not want to participate (and that includes many) do not see it on the “Activity” thread.

    The choice of text is your own. Abuse and blame me if you wish. I may award points for creative abuse!

    But don’t spoil the conversation. I may need to become….. sarcastic.

    #6791
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Aaaagh! Noooo! Not the SARCASM!!!

    Just wanted to reinforce the comments above re spoilers. I’d prefer not even to see the official posters/titles, but I concede that’s impossible when balanced with my desperate need for speculation, LOL!  I’ve even managed to keep out of the Spoiler Room recently (mainly by catching up on the Music thread – great stuff in there)

    Like @phaseshift I will probably avoid the Grauniad blog come week 0, but I’d hate to have to ban myself from here too.

    #6792
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Understood @GrandmasterPhaseFish 🙂 @lula and everyone else is just learning the blog ropes.

    When @craig gets back from his trip we might think about a little “How to Navigate” Master/ Mistress post or space perhaps (much as I am generally loth to write down the “rules” for anything)

    @bluesqueakpip We’ve heard the cloister bell when River is trapped in the exploding TARDIS and also in the Doctor’s Room 101 in The God Complex (which I’m pretty sure contained a “dark” version of himself) both of which lead me to believe that an explosion and multiple Doctors/ time-lines are the sort of perilous events inclined set off the “bells of St. John”…

    #6793
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @phaseshift and @bluesqueakpip. Oh dear. Just back from the shops and I think I may have been guilty of less than gentlemanly practice over on the Spoiler thread. Profuse apologies.

    This is what comes from posting in the cold light of dawn with a clear head after one cup of coffee, instead of fortified by the free alcohol on the Qantas Club Lounge, or by a bottle from the Blenkinsop cellar at the end of the day.

    Time to contain myself to the surer ground of bonkers theorising, of which the board is positively excelling at the moment!

    Support for the theory that Clara may be the Doctor’s offspring. Hurrah!

    Support for the theory that the fourth wall may be broken in the 50th special. Hurrah!

    No support for the Kennedy theory. <Blenkinsop sulks>

    #6794
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Question about spoiler posts. I’ve noticed my ‘padding’ space is never really enough, when posting ‘there.’  Anyone know how many lines of text or blank lines are needed before the text breaks, and hides what is under, on the activity feed?

    #6795
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish – yes, I think we do. Because I’ve just done a quick trawl through the other times, and they’re times when either the universe or the TARDIS itself is in danger. But it can’t just be ‘the Doctor is in danger’ because the ruddy Bell would never stop clanging. 🙂

    So what on earth could be so dire about the Doctor being trapped in a pocket universe that the Cloister Bell starts muttering darkly about ‘the destruction – of reality – ITSELF!!!’

    What has just occurred to me (I’m doing a rewatch) is that if Clara is either a) the Doctor’s as-yet-un-conceived daughter or b) a future Doctor – then reality’s in trouble. If he dies in that pocket universe, he can’t regenerate. Clara becomes someone who can’t exist – a paradox. And the last time the TARDIS had someone who couldn’t exist inside her (River, who at that point had two parents who’d just died before they had a chance to conceive her), she blew up and destroyed pretty well the entire universe. 

    So the Doctor dying somewhere he can’t regenerate and before he can create Clara (by whatever means) would rate a Cloister Bell.

    #6796
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip

    I like it and hmmmmmm. This post http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cloister_Bell enumerates (not sure how accurately) the times the cloister bell has been heard in Who to date both in TV canon and in extended universe (novels etc.)

    What is interesting is that it seems to clang away whenever alternative universes collide.

    I had completely not registered at the time that it sounds in Moffat’s short “Children in Need” Time Crash, when the Tenth Doctor collides with the Fifth Doctor.

    Hidden in plain sight…

    #6798
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @ardaraith

    On the padding space, it’s a good question – I had limited time when I posted my note in the Spoilers thread and played about with the header a few times but could not get it quite right. I’m at home tomorrow morning and intend to try it again and give some advice (the way this WordPress blog is set up is new to me as well).

    In general.

    Sorry about coming in a bit strong arm, BUT I’ve seen myself, @scaryb, @chickenelly, @juniperfish and many others retire when too many spoilers start coming up. I would prefer we sort this issue out at this stage because it will raise its head in a few short weeks.

    These will not be what amounts to speculation on blogs, or the odd snippet taken on set. These will be links to national newspapers. The professional spoilers, if you will.

    #6799
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @janetteb

    Planning ahead, the … ahem … arse end of my post on the G tomorrow. Last week, in a rush I quoted @juniperfish and @bluesqueakpip horribly. If you don’t mind, I’m going to quote you tomorrow. Is this OK?

    (Insert Review)

    …and in our alternate mirror dimension, I dwelled on the possible relationship between a Cumbria Priory in 1200 AD with “The Cartmel Masterplan”, while JanetteB came up with an interesting thought on why “Carlisle is ignorance” involving Border Reivers and the family name of the current showrunner. If it isn’t true, it should be.

    As we move towards the endgame, my thoughts are that the Doctor, the inspiration for that title over space and time, will have to renew his own Hippocratic Oath:

    I will keep them from harm and injustice…….. If I fulfil this path and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honoured with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

    Enter the Dark Mirror at http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com

    #6800
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish, @bluesqueakpip

    The Cloister Bell’s been clanging away more in the last 2 Dr’s times than any time before! The old girl’s a bit rattled.

    @everyone!  Good to get the Spoilers thing sorted out now before it ends in tears! 😉

     

    #6801
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phaseshift Cripes that’s organised.

    Enter the dark mirror…

    I love it.

    Looks like we’ll have to leap betwixt and between that particular watery portal pretty damn quick, seeing as it closed up Tuesday this week….

    I will be wearing my red and blue bowties.

    See ya then all

    @DarkJuniperFish

    #6802
    ScaryB @scaryb

    LOL @phaseshift – nice 🙂

    #6804
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    it seems to clang away whenever alternative universes collide.

    @juniperfish – Yes. But here it starts clanging when the door between alternatives shuts.

    #6805
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Thoughts on numbers – specifically 25-11-74

    Couldn’t come up with much for that date (Henry Kissinger made a speech in China and Nick Drake died 🙁  )

    Checking for 21st Nov (Alec Palmer says that this (ie 25th) is their 4th day so they’d have started on 21st ) – only Who-ish link is very tenuous publication date of Dr W & the Abominable Snowmen) Singularly uneventful week in history as @bluesqueakpip pointed out earlier. Suspiciously uneventful if you ask me! It was very conspicuously flagged – unless its significance is to follow. Or the Moff suggested to throw it in there so we’d get distracted from other stuff 😉

    #6806
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Alec Palmer says that this (ie 25th) is their 4th day so they’d have started on 21st

    No, 22nd. They start on Day One, not Day Zero, so 22nd, 23rd, 24th and Day Four is 25th.

    #6807
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @scaryb. Alas, I suspect it is just thrown in, in the same way as references to “the 11th” are, but nevertheless, I will keep searching for something…anything…that happened on the 25th. What’s the point of a theory if it’s not bonkers?

    #6809
    janetteB @janetteb

    @phaseshift I am flattered. It isn’t often that I say anything quote worthy.

    Maybe the significance of the date is yet to be revealed.

    @cleverbonkerstheorists, Nice work on the Cloister Bell. I like the alternative universe theory. Alternative universes are always fun.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6810
    janetteB @janetteb

    Something minor has been bothering me about Hide and just reading a comment elsewhere about the date, 1974, brought it to mind. I am old enough to recall 1974 and we definitely didn’t wander about with candles then. In times of power failure we resorted to torches. The candelabra is a lovely gothic touch and I wouldn’t attribute anything more to it but the Jessica character was dressed rather oddly for the time. Her clothing was hardly the fashion for the period but maybe that was meant to reflect on the character. Or maybe there is something wrong with time, or the stories we are seeing are occurring in some kind of pocket or alternative universe, or a copy world where the designers haven’t quite got the look of things right, hence the popping of the wrong balloon.

    Cheers

    Janette

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