S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS

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    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish @haveyoufedthefish

    The first time we see Clara’s hand injury there is no lettering – only a cut

    There are several failed attempts to avoid being the fate of turning into the lava monsters

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    you’re a “shameless marketing whore”!

    It’s a hat I wear with pride! 😀

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Eggs… Flickery lights too…

    It’s Aliens isn’t it? Terrifying Mother has ‘dangerous eggs’ she wants to protect…

    BESD1 @besd1

    @miapatrick – Forgive my ignorance but: TBOSJ?

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    We really should really produce a “Key” to our abbreviations.

    TBOSJ =”The Bells of St. John”
    AOTD = “Asylum of the Daleks”, etc.

    As soon as you get it, it does remove a lot of effort.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Okay, upon checking & comparing the TARDIS & Tooth & Claw Observatories – They are very very similar but not exactly the same. The crescent parts on the telescopes are the opposite way around to each other for instance (unless they move?). Very similar rooves though and only the walls seem to really differ… Could that be the actual part of Torchwood House before it burnt down?

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @scaryb @juniperfish – oh don’t get me wrong, the letting definitely develops over time. I’m just saying it’s fully legible before the engine room!

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @wolfweed – I thought the same, I’m assuming they used the same cgi model with minor tweaks to save money.

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Looking again, the TARDIS Observatory has a gallery or walkway or whatever – it’s seems to be a little bigger.

    It’s a nice nod though, and reusing a beautiful design…..

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    Eggs… Flickery lights too…

    Yes – since part 1 we haven’t really been keeping track of the references we were picking up (Christmas, flickering lights, Eggs). I thought the Christmas and Egg references were due to the Christmas and Easter episodes, but it would be interesting to see if there are any other spots.

    A final observation for me tonight:

    The series part 1 was about the Doctor getting confused with other Doctors in a couple of episodes. This part features Professors in that role (absent tonight – none of the characters were all that intelligent). The transition was in Angels in Manhattan. River announces she has become a Professor (from Doctor) on her release. Any thoughts? Is the importance of the title of “The Doctor” being reduced because he is erasing his influence from history?

    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    Once again the idea for the ultimate solution was a gentle push from Clara: she was the one to first mention the need for a big red button. She planted the idea in the Doctor’s mind and the TARDIS and the Dr ran with it.

    Exactly (from first post)

    Um, hmmm, Did she really accidently pick up the button cannister?  Or did she know to do it.  Watch her face closely as she goes to get it.

    Really loved first 50 min!!! Resolution as a re-set of events, well thats common for the 11th.  So a tad of a been-there-done-that feeling.  But still the story was fresh and enjoyed it 🙂

    Clara saves the day theme  continues.







    rema @rema

    I really liked this, even though I watched it in two parts, with a few vodka filled hours in the middle. (Very inconsiderate friends having parties on a Saturday evening!!!!) I will have to rewatch this tomorrow properly but couldn’t help but notice Clara’s dress, it seemed to me to be switching colour between red and blue.

    The fish around here have hooked me on their red/blue theories, and I realise the lighting was changing, but it seemed to me the actress was actually wearing two different dresses. In some scenes it appeared red, but others blue. And the different dress in the final was definitely blue, with a blue towel.

    Also whose were the feet under the TARDIS when it crash landed. It looked to me like a pair of leather shoes, but didn’t rewind and I am not really sure what I saw.

    Loved all the glimpses of the rooms in the TARDIS, and squealed when I saw the cot. His age is all over the place, with no continuity so something must be going on there. Looking forward to watching it again, and haven’t done that all series, even though the magic button was a let down.

    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    Oh and let me take this a bit further—Clara (isnt there a big friendly button)

    And sure enough, There existed a big friendly button—

    Would it have been there if she hadnt willed it.     I think not.

    Lula @lula

    Probably my favorite episode of this second half of the season.   I need my usual re-watch, but my initial fascination is with the Architectural Reconfiguration System, a tree of living metal, “a machine that makes machines.”

    Also–this is the second week in a row when Clara has seen another Clara .  Last week, it was the Tardis voice interface system.  Purposeful echoes of Claras scattered throughout time existence?  The Doctor made a point of telling Clara that these were time echoes: “The Tardis is leaking the past.”  And then we soon learn that it’s not just the past that’s leaking, it’s also the bleeding into the future.

    It’s all so very interesting…

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird


    Three and a half hours to go! Avoiding the Guardian, avoiding comments here (though I did see @htpbdet‘s “yes, well…. Outstanding” comment before looking away).

    It is very difficult knowing that you are all discussing the ep before the colonies get to see it.

    Mind you, you’ll probably all be asleep right now.

    So it was good, yes?

    thedoctordude @thedoctordude

    One thing I noticed, the lighting in the Tardis changed from blue to red when the magnetic thing took over.

    I also thought that Clara’s quote about red was interesting. “Red flashing light means something bad, get out of here fast, possible, whatever you do don’t open this door.” Maybe a hint about Clara as a red flashing light?

    Interesting to hear the cloister bells again. I guess there are several time lines running again.

    Maybe the two other Claras in AotD and Snowmen were just echos of her indicating a larger time rift that is happening?

    Or maybe they were again repetitions of the same thing until the doctor got it right and saved her in tBoSJ?

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    One thing I did seem to notice was that Clara is noticeably more scared when she’s not with the Doctor – but I didn’t read it as ‘scared because the Doctor isn’t here’, it was more ‘scared because I’ve just lost my script’. While she clearly doesn’t know how the TARDIS works or where anything is, she’s not scared of ol’ Sexy, even if she’s picked up that the TARDIS doesn’t like her.

    Equally, her reaction when she discovers the monster is her isn’t to freak out, it’s to stare curiously at her future self.

    And yes, she nudges him. “If you haven’t got a plan we’re dead!”

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Oh, and she again doesn’t give an answer to a direct question: she never answers the Doctor’s “on a scale of one to 10” except indirectly.

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bobbingbird – aargh sorry about the frustrating time-lag. Good to have a decent night-shift on here now tho’, so we’ll look out for your reactions when you get there!

    Morning all (evening all, for those other-side)

    Does anyone else wonder what that magical purpley liquid from the bottles full of the Encyclopaedia of Gallifrey in the TARDIS library might do to Clara?

    We know time has been re-written but not totally over-written, so perhaps Clara retains some of that information.

    I wonder if the TARDIS tipped that over her on purpose?

    NB – stylistically, the Doctor is such an Earth retro-hound 🙂 Bow-ties and all those leather-bound old-fashioned books…

    @rema Welcome! On the colour coding red/ blue. red/  blue.

    “… like a light switch, two positions, flickering together at super-infinite speeds, running together for a brief second…”

    Yes, it’s subtle but it’s there. Clara is wearing a grey dress in the final scene, not a blue one, but she does, as you say, have a blue towel slung over her shoulder.  Red shift indicates an expanding universe and blue a contracting one, relative to the big bang… in this case the explosion/ not explosion of the TARDIS.

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @badwolf99 – I don’t think Clara willed a new button into existence, the “big button” was just for the shields the doc had just disabled moments earlier, was it not?

    The circular paradox nature of the resolution makes it hard to attribute it to either Clara or the doc. The doc writes the message, Clara shows it to the doc, inspiring him to write it and deliver it to her in the first place… looped, with no causation event.

    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @juniperfish – I’m re-watching and am struck by the Doctor’s revelation under the Eye of Harmony that he brought Clara with him on the TARDIS to keep her safe, so she wouldn’t die again. He is still very much acting on his feeling of beng responsible–for her death, for other’s deaths, and for their protection. And the moment, outside the engine room, when Clara almost falls off the cliff, they hug. The Doctor lets go and genuinely hugs her. Inside the engine room, when he says the TARDIS has, “always been there for me, but now when it’s my turn, I don’t know what to do,” Clara walks right up, matter-of-factly, and holds his hand. (did anyone else watching on HD notice how much Clara’s dress looks like a red version of the Matrix –from the Matrix film?)

    He needs to find “the music” – that’s the ‘moment’ where all the memories are leaking out

    music, stories, memories, futures, family, love

    I need another cuppa. I suddenly miss my mother.

    Whisht @whisht

    btw – if we’re looking for eggs then there were two pretty key ones in this episode.

    I’d try to embed the images, but they might bust the site so I’ll link instead (to official BBC site, production artwork for the Big Friendly Button and then the Room beyond value)

    (apologies if already posted but didn’t see mentions of both yet)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @haveyoufedthefish @badwolf99

    The “big button” is the remote control for the magno-grab (the (banned) mechanism the salvagers use to bring in the Tardis), which is destabilising the Tardis and preventing the Dr putting the shields back up. It first appears in the pre-credit sequence when it rolls into the Tardis, Clara picks it up but then drops it.  The Doctor picks it up when he first meets the salvagers – says he found it in one of their pockets.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Theory – the monster Clara first meets in the Library is the Doctor not Clara. It holds its face (a mannerism which is definitely associated with the Doctor in the Eye of Harmony room later).

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    Ok it’s quite possible this story actually resolves some of the major threads weve been discussing:

    In at least one iteration of the loop, they all get barbecued by the finest in TimeLord grilling technology. The already destroyed engine room was held in a temporary stasis, so in that iteration although not shown, the tardis innevitably explodes. 2nd tardis explosion – Check.

    Clara is in the tardis at the time so conceivably this explosion is what scatters her across time and space. Possible Check.

    I’ve written elsewhere that I thought this eventuality and the doctors failure of his duty of care for Clara has a devastating effect on him. This basically just happend, and the doc is clearly left with new doubts, so – check.

    At the same time, there is a crack in time connecting to at least one other console room, so it’s conceivable that this also connected to Rivers Big Bang tardis which we also know had a crack (on the console screen) and was the cause of this hitherto unexplained explosion – Check (as it turned out, no multi tardii pile up required)

    It’s also therefore the same crack the doc reached through and retreived a piece of tardis debris way back. Check.

    Destroying the universe just turning off the shields for a few secs during a driving lesson – talk about butterfly effect!

    Although it wasn’t spelled out (moffatt tends not to signpost “and this is the explanation” for arcs, as we know) I think he’s just wrapped at least some threads up quite neatly (this explaining Clara fracturing needs more corroboration though), ready for the finale.

    My usual fins and foils – @bluesqueakpip @scaryb @juniperfish @whisht @jimthefish @phaseshift @whohar @ardaraith @lula @thedoctordude @bobbingbird @chickenelly @wolfweed @craig @shazzbot @badwolf99 @phileasf – what do you guys think?

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @scaryb @badwolf99 – you are 100% correct, it’s the big button on the remote. I’ve not woken up properly yet, brain is still scattered through time and space!

    Hmmm ok this is timey wimey. The remote Clara picks up has writing on it to burn into her hand. The remote the doc picks up is blank (because he writes on it using the sonic). Therefore the one the doc picks up is the one the salvagers genuinely dropped and not the one Clara dropped. So there’s now 2.

    Therefore its not a paradox and although it’s not impossible Clara willed a remote into being, that’s not necessary for the plot to work.

    Technically that means every iteration of the loop creates an extra remote on the console room floor. Since they’re not awash with them, they can only have gone around the loop once before @scaryb

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    The episode just finished screening in the colonies. Have not read any of the comments yet.



    So much to take on. Brain exploding.

    After much thought, and some sleep, will be back in a few hours.

    Charlie Cook @charlie-cook

    Re a very early posting, according to subtitles, the sensor said “Lancashire, sass” not “Lancashire, South”. 

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @scaryb – agreed that one the doc. I don’t think it’s a mannerism, so much as the hand is actually fused to his face (just as the brothers are fused together).

    Possibly this explains at least his zombies antagonism – his last addled thought is to protect his name in the book?

    Timeloop @timeloop

    Hi there!

    Did anybody else catch the Doctor saying he has flown the TARDIS over 900 years(near the end)? So not a thousand so maybe even before his “death” at lake silencio. I just rewatched it … but  I am not sure how long he has lived before he borrowed the TARDIS.  Did he lose Amy and Rory then found Clara and then” died” with the other two and River? Because time is not the boss of him…? I just found that an interesting piece of information. It all depends on how old he was when he required the TARDIS

    I loved the libary and the swimmingpool and the rest of it- no clue why it got bad and average reviews.

    Curious what you think about that!

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @whisht – good find, interesting that the drawings for both the remote AND the archRecon “tree fruit” both explicitly call them “eggs”.

    Whisht @whisht

    @haveyoufedthefish – oh yes!

    Like it – you’ve done well neatly summing it up there (confirmation bias be darned!).

    the Dr’s burnt version protecting his name is indeed a reason for ‘zombie attack’ rather than ‘reaching out for help’ as other ‘zombies’ may have been doing.

    As said before, if this Clara is flung back in time, she’ll have echoes of recent memories (big chin, ostentatiously-drunk-milk, eggs) and these are then remembered in AotD, etc.

    Hi @timeloop – yes, there’s been much musing on his different ages (suggested by how long he’s been in the Tardis). I’ll admit I haven’t a clue – I can imagine the nightmare of continuity between old Who and Nu-Who but these ages have been wobbly in the last series!

    I’ll leave it to smarter people on here to tell us both!!

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @haveyoufedthefish I like your reasoning re previous Tardis explosions. It might not be the ultimate solution, but it could certainly wrap up a lot of loose ends if no other explanation comes out in the next week or 2 😉  (And yes, good call on the Dr’s hand being fused to his face and that his crispy brain is focused on trying to keep her away from his secrets).

    Also like @whisht‘s eggs. I thought we’d done with eggs post-Easter, but could still be on @juniperfish‘s birth/rebirth cycle.

    @timeloop – seems to be a concensus that “flown her for 900 years” is consistent with him being approx 1200 years,  assuming he didn’t run off with her till he was a youth of approx 300 (consistent with Hartnell’s claim that he was about that age).

    And speaking of timeloops, I think this has to count as one of the most horrific stories ever – everyone gets cooked at least twice – ref the Doctor’s comment about having thrown the remote through before but not picking it up. This time he sonics the enscription on it. So Clara’s throwaway comment at the beginning is the thing that saves them because the coincidence of it draws their attention to the solution. Clara’s hand definitely only has the cut/burn after the first time she handles the remote.

    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @haveyoufedthefish – that is a Brilliant theory!! It does, indeed, neatly tie together so many threads- and in near perfect timey-wimey fashion! Is there a historical precedent in the show for a person being split through space and time? This may have been discussed previously, but now that the exploding TARDIS can been explained, I am infinitely curious whether anything like this is mentioned in Classic Who? The explosion and time rift also explains the various persona of the Doctor flitting in and out.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Re repeating “stuff” from early episodes of this season, in addition to eggs being back, flashing lights are explicitly mentioned and if that comment (highlighted by @juniperfish) about like a light switch with two positions representing separate but occasionally interacting timestreams doesn’t come back as a future plot point/explanation I’ll concede to full fish-isation!

    @ardaraith historical precedents – for person split thro space and time see the Jagaroth (a Douglas Adams script from Tom Baker period (City of Death) – also the result of an explosion. I’m sure there’s others our historical experts will keep you right – @htpbdet? It’s surprising (or maybe not) how many things have been visited and revisited through the years! Eg the Tardis on the verge of destruction but trying to save the occupants, resulting in psychological confusion – Series 1, story 3 (Edge of Destruction) – with a bit of a lower budget tho.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Rewatched. Love it even more. Love the brothers’ story too, the oldest brother’s a bit of a plank tho (my only criticism). In lots of ways the story’s actually about them, and at least one of them learning to empathise with his brain-damaged brother.

    The Doctor’s very dark but for good reason. He’s an alien of great power and these stupid (selfish and greedy – def NOT the best of humanity!) humans have just endangered the wonder of engineering that is the Tardis thro their use of a silly little bit of illegal tech.

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @ardaraith – yes! The only character I know of who was fragmented is Scaroth the Jaggaroth in City of Death who was fragmented in time when his ship (not a time ship) exploded taking off at warp 3. So there’s precedent that exploding craft is the only known way to fragment a character, so far.

    Alternatively, there’s princess astra of atrios who rather than a person who fragmented, was a fragment of a thing (the key to time – a big crystal with timely wimey powers) which was disguised as a person (and unaware of what she was)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    New theory (no 6,732!) The Dr is the Great Intelligence. His consciousness (or part of it – perhaps the bit without a conscience, or a more primitive part of him) is set adrift and has to take the slow route to meeting up with the rest of him. It goes a bit loopy and power-crazy from being disembodied so long. (Ref – all the mirroring of the Dr and the GI which has been teased out on the Snowmen thread; the Dr-zombie in JttCotT)

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @scaryb – I likes! I agree that there’s hints that he doc not only inspired the GI but also created it (I suggested a matrix tie-in but yours is better as it sticks within the scope of nu who)

    You could sort of say the GI collects uploads to meet its needs in the same way the doc acquires companions to meet his (unconscious need to not go postal on the entire universe), like it was a residual trait.

    Maybe his great mistake was not to meld with it in web of fear, which would have reintegrated the two split minds …?

    janetteB @janetteb

    First a quick post after finally getting to watch the episode. (so apologies to all those who most certainly ahve already observed the following.) Two things that struck me, the Tardis can create stuff and it has the “ghosts” of former companions within it. So is human DNA amongst the things the Tardis can create? Maybe not just Clara is a creation of the Tardis, maybe many if nto all of the former assistants have been generated by the Tardis. Maybe the TARDIS can also generate alternate universes.

    Now back to catch up on three pages of comments/bonkers theorising. Been looking forward to this all day.



    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    Just re-watched- a couple of thoughts. It was a cloth at the end (I thought it was paper the first time too), but it looked a lot like the cloth at the beginning of the episode, that the youngest brother was using to clean something.
    Given the weirdness of the changes on the salvaging vessel at the end- the photograph of the brothers and their father- could it be a hint that he did in fact go to the other ship and change things, rather than the changes being a rather inexplicable result of the re-set? He could have done that when Clara was showering/swimming.

    Secondly, I agree that there was something sinister in the way he said to Clara ‘you won’t go looking for my name’, but it also reminded me of when he was trying to help Amy remember Rory when he was erased from time- as though he was imprinting a suggestion. Though that might not work on this Clara, since she has a habit of taking him at his word- not following him, keeping the door shut when he said to.

    thommck @thommck

    Looks like most of the clues I spotted have already been called out by others here! Really enjoyable episode.

    In the pre-titles scene, the eldest brother has an “Alien of the Month” painting on his wall. I didn’t recognise the species but there was something familiar about it.

    Also, the Doctor just changed his own future and even spooks to himself! Doesn’t that break all the rules? Or is it ok because he went through a crack rather than actually flying to his past in the tardis?

    I know this was mentioned earlier but Clara points out that red means danger!

    This episode definitely makes me think Clara is, or has been sent by, the Doctor’s mother. Has she escaped the time lock? Is that why she could read the book? The books title was in English so was it actually written in English or was the tardis translating ?

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @miapatrick – oh I like that; doctor: “you didn’t go looking for my name? But I told you not to so that I knew you definitely would! You humans alway ignore what I tell you to do! Oh gawd – what am I going to do now??!!!!”

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @thommck Yeah, I wondered why Clara could read the book as well. most definetly in galifreyan, isnt it? who else would know about it (beside the daleks?)?


    janetteB @janetteb

    Having read through all the posts I am again speculating on the Clara as River Song possibility, only as an earlier regeneration of R.S. That is problematical as she must have been about at the same time as R.S. The only way I can think of getting around that is that her reality is in an alternate universe. Time certainly seems to be rather distorted in this series. (most notably in Hide.) Then again the Doctor is happily crossing his own time stream in this series so perhaps, provided they don’t intersect, it is possible.




    ScaryB @scaryb

    I think all rules about crossing your own timeline can be safely ignored when you’re in a breaking down Tardis which is frantically creating timeloops and frozen engine-spaces to try to preserve what it can of itself and its occupants.

    ardaraith @ardaraith

    OH!! He is under the TARDIS when it’s hauled into the salvage bay because in one of the re-does the Doctor had to get onto the ship in order to grab the remote for the first time. My gosh….they have been in the time loop as long as River was, haven’t they??

    …is this the first instance of the Doctor cursing? lol. I believe he said that as fast as my Grandpa use to.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @miapatrick re the cloth – that thought occurred to me too, on the rewatch; but it may just mean he’s tidying up (although the other way could mean that too…) Aaaagh! This episode makes my brian explode 😀

    @ardaraith – feet under the Tardis kept putting me in mind of the Wicked Witch of the East in Wizard of Oz!! (Did someone mention that upstream?) Only thing missing was the ruby slippers, LOL. He could have been flung out with all the other gubbins that he’s buried under. But yes they could have been in this loop (spiral?) for a long time.

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @scaryb– mine too! I know the cloth thing is a bit tenuous, but pieces of cloth did seem to get a lot of screen time, considering there was a swimming pool and a library and all kinds of exciting things to show us.

    and it does at least offer an explanation for the changed photograph.

    Plus he liked Tricky, I can see him making sure the truth comes out.

    WhoHar @whohar

    Grreat visuals – loved the library, I would just stay in there for ever.  CHECK.

    Good performances from the mains. CHECK.

     Some snappy dialogue. CHECK

    Nice refs. to previous Docs, assistants and episodes. CHECK

    But something off about the ep. for me. Not sure what. I am…conflicted.

    One thing I can out my finger on as strange: why did the Doc let Clara – someone who he is still so unsure about – fly the Tardis, and with the defences down? If it was supposed to be a test, it seems reckless in the extreme.

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