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    Vervain @replies

    Ok – new bonkers theory

    So does anyone remember the conversation between War Doctor, 10, 11 and the General just before the creation of Gallifrey Falls No More?

    Locked away in a mirror/other universe

    The Master’s allies in Spyfall and apparently where he ended up – another universe

    The crack broadcasting a message through all of time and space – from another universe

    The Boundary…

    The Timeless Child fell through from one universe to another…

    We know that the Doctor has had gaps in their memory before, even within the Matrix – Trial of a Timelord

    The Division – an agency that traverse time space and universes?



    Vervain @replies

    Also what does this actually mean for Susan? The Dr’s Granddaughter

    Vervain @replies

    Also if Tecteun was gallivanting around the universe pre-Timelord era in an “old slow ship” – given they managed to explore many galaxies, find a boundary and the “timeless child”, travel some more whilst the timeless child grew up a bit, get back to gallifrey (for mini-master and mini Doctor to have a fight over a toy?!) discover regeneration? with the child still being a child – why suddenly rush and worry about regeneration? neither appeared to be ageing particularly.

    why would such an already long lived individual be all that bothered about regeneration at all?

    It doesnt work

    So perhaps there is a terrible truth that exists – and it is so terrible that the Master wants to push the Doc to a place where mutual annihilation is the best option – seems peculiar given everything the Master has done to cheat death and continue existing throughout their character’s story arc.

    Vervain @replies

    Hated it – it makes no sense. Literally the whole story is full of holes larger than the boundary. As a story it isn’t even internally consistent.

    @julianantony Not sure how you can say that is hasn’t ruined any history.  Even if Tecteun renamed themselves Rassilon there are still several history breaking issues. Namely that by removing the previous Gallifreyan ruling elite (the  Pythia) as precursors to the Time Lords  you end up without the Sisterhood of Karn, meaning you end up with no War Doctor.

    If Chibnal is happy to reference pre-RTD material as he has done several times this season (Zellin mentioning the Celestial Toymaker for example)  as well as in this episode (the Master referencing his assassination of the President within the Panopticon an event which occurred during the 4th Dr story the Deadly Assassin) then there should be some sort of logic and continuation.  This ret-con simply doesnt work.

    I grant that “the Division” does make the first few moments in Genesis of the Daleks make sense. However clearing up one moment of pre-gap dr who whilst making most of the rest of it make no sense isn’t an accomplishment.

    If the timeless child really is the Time Lord’s biggest secret and the fact that its the Dr is information that could be found out – do you think “the Division” would have allowed the events of Trial of a Timelord?  Why would the Division remove itself from The Timeless Child’s memories if they were a willing sign up as they appeared to be?

    It doesn’t really work with River or Clara and Trenzalore what with jumping into the timestream.  All those “extra-previous” regenerations could have been a huge help when moving Gallifrey.

    Who/where is Tecteun? They may have limited others to 12 regenerations but they don’t seem the type to have limited themselves.

    Why would any humans know about the death particle? Its not like Cybermen as a race are big on creating myths. Has Ashad been prone to monologuing at humans throughout the millenia? Unlikely because he says the Cyberium created the death particle and he only relatively recently became the host. Well unless he lived through from the 19th century – whenever this future is.

    The not so lone cyberman/Ashad ( At least the Dr called him the half converted cyberman) said nothing about the death particle being confined to a planet. Would that be your standard Metric or Imperial planet? Planet, not great as a unit of measurement. I understand destroying all organic life when you are living metal. But that isn’t all that the the cyberium is  – because if it was then it doesn’t really want to continue the cyber-race – it doesn’t really make a lot of sense just like the master pointed out. You are living metal that doesnt age and dont like organic life. Outlive it.

    These Cyber-Lords, limited to 12 regenerations? why/how do they regenerate with upgrades not being rejected? are they the actual menace that Jack was warning about? Was using the Death Particle not what the “Lone Cyberman” wanted and thus giving it what it wanted?

    given that the death particle got used and Ashad got the Cyberium What was the point of Captain Jack’s cameo earlier in the series?

    And as for creating Myths – “Our founding parents wanted a noble creation myth for the Timelords” – well that would be fine if we hadnt actually met two of the founding parents. We know that Rassilon and Omega were real/existed because we’ve met them in the series. – pretty impressive creation “myth”

    If Ko Sharmus was a member of an elite resistance unit from a race with enough knowledge and power to send the cyberium back through time and space why choose that course of action instead of sending it to a different universe? Knowing its sentient living metal why send it alone? What is the point of that? It seems like a bad attempt at wibbly wobbly timey wimey that doesn’t work.

    Does that mean he is/was a timelord?  why has he/has he been sending all the humans through the boundary to a deserted wartorn gallifrey?

    A perception filter within the Matrix that re-skinned things to look like Ireland in order to make those memories look UNREMARKABLE TO TIMELORDS? Really? I’m not at all sure that that many Gallifreyan lives bore much resemblance to lives lived in Ireland between two world wars.

    The boundary in the matrix recollection seemed to be a bridge across universes, but clearly looked anchored by a building. this may be me desperately invoking the Grandfather paradox by wishing to write in an even bigger reset button – could this Gallifrey/Ruth/Ko Sharmus Timeless Child like the Kassavins before them, be incursions from another universe?

    “There’s  loads of Robots, throw a stick IN THIS UNIVERSE and you’ll hit a robot…”

    “Appealing to my better nature? We both know I don’t have one” – Well Missy says otherwise.

    If all timelords have the same base genetic code then depending on how advanced your tech is, according to your scanners all of them could show up as the same. So the Judoon are buggered.

    After last week I was so hopeful and keen – so much promise, in my opinion it wasnt lived up to, sadly  More holes than a slice of Emmental.

    Lets see how badly he treats the Daleks next…

    Vervain @replies


    There has been a reference to something like the Cyberium in “Who” before–in “Tomb of the Cybermen” with the Troughton Doctor. And the current crop of Cybermen have a similar look/design as the Cybermen from from “Tomb of the Cybermen

    The entirety of the 25th Anniversary story Silver Nemesis is about sentient metal – Validium. Which was being hunted for on earth by the Cybermen, the Nazis, Lady Peinforte (!6th century practitioner of magic) and the 7th Doctor

    It was created as the last line of defense for Galifrey by Omega & Rassilon.

    Vervain @replies


    The Cyberium reminds me of Silver Nemesis – aka Validium the living metal created by Omega and Rassilon as the last line of defence for Gallifrey

    Cybermen eventually appear wherever humans are – and the universe thanks to the web of time is more likely to have human shaped creatures evolve in it

    Create a sentient weapon to defend a Time Travelling society and what will it do should it fail? Go back and keep trying to fix its mistake.

    Is N-Space caught in one big timeloop thanks to the timelords?


    Vervain @replies

    I agree with the Utopia vibes: Cyber-drones + Toclafane are flying heads after all

    I have a few theories:


    Brendan + Koshamas are both precursors to Professor Yana (he with the desire to serve and protect those in his care as well as apparently being found as a child on a beach with nothing but a watch)

    His minders are following the instructions given to them by (Sacha Dawan’s) the Master – who is using another Paradox engine to link Gallifrey up to both a Cyber Fleet and ensuring his own timeline diverges – that divergent timeline that is created subsequently is where the Ruth/Doctor and the more militarisitc Gallifreyan we met previously in the series come from


    The creatures from Ep 1 & 2 of the series are what the humans that Ko Sharmus waved off to Gallifrey turned into – Shadow People

    Or their descendants trying to get back to N-Space after a long time away in a different place

    Ruth is actually a regenerated Doctor’s Daughter (wasnt that clone tech? which is why they have the same DNA?)

    The Master has decided to rewrite Timelord history by unravelling the web of time – helped by creatures from other universes

    The portal rather than being at the boundary of two galaxies or universes  is a stable tunnel through the time vortex

    Vervain @replies

    Dear @drwhoopinion

    Congratulations on your appointment to the role as a personal reality paradox & difference engine.

    You manage to say something I totally agree with only to then have me vehemently disagree with your reasoning once you explain why you think so.

    I ask you to re-evaluate this statement which you seem to have posted without a hint of sarcasm:
    It’s like athletes hijacking the USA national anthem for political purposes.

    Not surprised you have trouble with Moffat’s pacing and complexity if you believe that using a political song to make a political point is hijacking.  <- Plenty of sarcasm  for you to take umbrage at there, but wait there’s more, a bonus ad hominem!

    Sports people, that’s their platform/arena that’s when they can have the most impact – seems to make sense from an objective marketing point of view . Talking of points of view, the right to protest when engaged in is almost always done so from a sense of duty – the seeming incongruity of my championing tolerance for different viewpoints whilst lampooning yours is not lost on me, but is actually the result of false equivalence.

    As I seem to be talking to a sports fan id like to ask you whether you stop being a fan of whichever team you follow if they lose a few games? Have a bad season? Temporarily have a crap coach?

    Now that we say I’m a “X”  fan rather than the original Im a “X” fanatic its become shorthand for liking something not loving it  -given lexicographical temporal inflation just liking something in the social media age is the equivalent of a fairweather fan who will watch something if they happen to be channel surfing and happen across it.

    I will always be a fan, even if I happen to think this episode was mostly drivel.


    Vervain @replies

    “They lied to us. The founding fathers of Gallifrey…everything we were told was a lie. We’re not who we think, you or I.”

    let’s unpack this – who were the founding fathers of Gallifrey as far as the Timelords are concerned-

    Rassilon – power hungry megalomaniac so powerful they locked him up inside a tower as he was apparently immortal. He is back, exiled and has an axe to grind.

    Omega – the Timelords were lied to by Rassilon about him

    “The Other” – maybe?

    ”We are not who we think, you & I!”

    We meaning the timelords or specifically the Master & The Doctor?

    What do we think we know about The Timelords?

    They were primarily  observers and     were responsible for upholding the Laws of Time. They were the first race to discover physical time travel. Not all Timelords observed the Laws – renegades either ran or were exiled.

    now comes the bonkers.

    We’ve seen most of the laws of time broken, we know that other races developed or stole time travel, what if Rassilon stole the knowledge form a different universe or a race that actually kept to non interference? Or banished anyone who could stand against his new race to other universes or created this one to rule over it.

    What if the Doctor & The Master are the Timeless Child.

    Timelords in general aren’t taken to the untempered schism – the Timeless Child was.

    Rassilon became a Timelord he wasn’t born one. But having gained immortality and being the reason for why the laws of time came to be (after his dark times) the Timelords seek to protect themselves from the immortal nut job in the tower. they seek to create the perfect Timelord with the drive and intellect to match both Omega and Rassilon – a living weapon who would maintain the Timelords mastery of time and space and safeguard the universe from Rassilon. Too much for any person let alone a child – split personality and regeneration cycles – the child is outside of time and space and cannot be whole whilst they continue.

    the valeyard is the closest there is to an amalgamation of the two


    or what if the timelords are already a dead race.  “Regenerations” are echoes from the matrix. Enough unique memories of a dead adult Timelord wrapped around the central brain/processing core of a timeless child. – what is left of a once great race that have been burning for so long they don’t even remember

    Vervain @replies


    The dr’s tardis phallic? With all the yellow crystals? Same as on her sonic – it reminds me of the substance created by the Ux

    Vervain @replies

    Well as the War Doctor said to 10 & 11

    “They’re screwdrivers. What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?”

    Vervain @replies


    what’s left of what came before is the sisterhood of karn who barged in and stomped about like they owned the place in hellbent – revelling each time Rassilon’s authority was further undermined

    Vervain @replies

    Hello – I’m Sal, I live in London am 37 at time of writing and I’ve been watching since the mid 90’s – furtively exchanging vhs’s at school.

    Vervain @replies

    @syzygy with regards shattering of psyche I’ve an even more bonkers theory than that which ties the Timelords to the Weeping angels via the Pythia and the Sisterhood of Karn…


    so here goes:

    I’ve been thinking and here are some jottings – please give me your views – not sure it’s all consistent but anyway:

    So there is a theory about Weeping Angels being related to Timelords:

    I think they could be the unknown (and totally unintended) consequence of a Timelord looking into the Untempered Schism (a natural opening in the space/time continuum, “a gap in the fabric of reality from which can be seen the whole of the Vortex”. ).

    In prehistoric Gallifrey, when the superstitious magic wielding Pythia ruled- time sensitives were “fed” to the schism.

    Well that was a long time ago and in order to keep itself open without the regular ritual lobbings in of proto-timelords a new approach was needed. When a Timelord looks at it, it is looking back, seeking to protect itself (and/or all of time and space!) from what could be.

    What if “Untempered Schism” is both form and function. In the Whoniverse potentiality is somewhat quantifiable – indeed Temporal subjunctive potential is what the Angels apparently feed on. At the moment of engagement- perceiving all of the vortex the
    Tinelord’s very being is untempered by undergoing a schism that holds true through all of space and time and every potential iteration/part of multiverse.

    We know that there are (at least) three recognised consequences of (or a least reactions to) the ritual – inspiration, running (which could be from something or to something, theoretically due to fear or anger but could be other reasons) and madness. Whatever their reaction it In effect galvanises the Timelord and is a defining if not literally the thing that defines them for all and through all time both potential and actual.

    Mechanically it’s like a distillation /purification- but what if that is itself the by-product of misusing the schism.

    The placement of the Seal of Rassilon at the gateway was presumably placed when the transition from a ritual of sacrifice to a rite of passage was effected. So plenty of potential there for strange things on (maybe you have to use the tooth brush whilst having the buttplug of Rassilon inserted and a minimum of 2 other parts of the set to get the right stat bonus?)

    The value of Temporal subjunctive potential from the sacrifice of an entire time sensitive (mind/body/soul) I posit is several orders of magnitude less than the splinters of Temporal subjunctive potential from a single timelord undergoing the rite of passage because of regeneration but at the time of sacrifice the Pythia didn’t go around travelling the vortex, changing things in person, there was a balance to the amount of potentiality given and the amount they used when psychically blasting a planet or looking forward or backwards in time.

    When Rassilon and the Timelords started out they treated time as a play thing (see 5 doctors, games of Rassilon/dark times) imposing their will over time and space and space – in order to keep this in check and maintain the vortex with all of the added stress points the Schism had to find other ways of “feeding”.

    The angels are made from the scraps of potential excised from the minds of generations of Timelords. The parts that were not sufficiently internally consistent or which would be moderating internal influence – but that potentiality has been reconfigured – often maintaining a parallel theme but with an ironic twist.

    The act of gazing into the Schism solidifies the personality of the timelord – “quantum locking” some fundamental aspect of them that persists throughout their regenerations – that specialisation/distillation of self enhances their uniqueness and maximises them to reach their potential by paradoxically removing certain personality aspects/life paths that would sow doubt/when summed up could lead to limiting potential

    Beings whose potential is simply not there when seen – limited concept of individuation & personality – unity of purpose.

    There seem to be 3 types of angel loosely analogous to the three reactions – the standard- the cherubs (who run…) and the ones that appear as other statues but through a weeping angel lens (mad right?!)

    I had other ideas but I’ve forgotten them right now

    Vervain @replies

    We know the Timelords use renegades to maintain plausible deniability- Celestial Intervention Agency for example. Or promising the Master a new regeneration cycle in the 5 Doctors.

    Using other dimensions to hide their dirty secrets be it the Great Vampires or Omega. The diamond at the centre of The Sound of Drums – the sound which we heard when Me knocked on the Tardis doors in Hellbent, aa part of Saxon’s psychic field and used again in the most recent episode


    the big assumption here is the Master is that telling the truth about being responsible for Gallifrey as is now.

    Vervain @replies

    So anyone else think the kasavins gaffe looked similar to the Matrix cloister?

    or that the Master when transported there seemed to be wearing a clerical collar a la Rev. Magister?

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