Spyfall part 2

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    Arbutus @arbutus

    So nice to see all the speculation again! I don’t have any particular views about the Timeless Child, but I’m enjoying the return of the Master more than I would have expected. One of the things the post gap show has done nicely is the shift of the Master from a stereotypical evil nemesis to a villain of more nuance. We’ve been given believable background for how he became what he is, and enough hints about his past with the Doctor to create more of a love-hate relationship.

    It’s now possible to have the same debate about the Master’s fundamental nature as we have had had in the past about the Doctor. There’s a depth of anger that keeps him forever on a precipice. It’s easy to imagine him shifting toward the Doctor and away as external events push and pull at him. @winston, I don’t think that he would need the same degree of “reason” to destroy Gallifrey, due to his tremendously unstable personality. But I agree that you can never exclude the possibility that the Master is lying! I can’t help noting that, in their final appearances, both Simm and Gomez Masters actually ended up, in a sense, on the Doctor’s side.

    @vervain   That cabinet assembly line was a favourite of mine! 🙂

    @blenkinsopthebrave   I buy the iTunes series as well. Like you we don’t have cable, so it’s essential, but listening to comments of others about ad breaks, I feel I get the better bargain!

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @craig Thanks – and yes it was my fault – I was trying to copy and paste too much Wikipedia about DNA separating techniques!

    @claire54 My overall take is, now that we have a female doctor, the writers don’t know what to do with her.

    Yes, unfortunately I do not think Chibnall has been equal to the task.

    Elements which I’ve found jarring in the writing of her, is that WhitDoc is not only the first female Doctor, but she is the first Doctor in Nu Who to be depicted (at least so far) as completely uninterested in flirting. Now, of course, that was par for the course (mostly) in BG Who, so it’s not a characteristic of the Doctor I find difficult per se.

    But, making the first female Doctor devoid of desire (apparently) when all her Nu Who predecessors have had a twinkle in their eye, seems to speak to an anxiety about/ inability to write that twinkle in female form.  I think it’s a cop out and it disappoints me. We’ve been given a (surface) heterosexual Doctor in Nu Who, through the Doctor’s relationships with Rose and River, plus his flirtations with Madame du Pompadour, Amy and Clara, and then all the interesting questions about Gallifreyan sexuality posed by our new understanding (since The Doctor’s Wife and the Corsair) of regeneration as gender-fluid, have been side-stepped by making WhitDoc apparently asexual (not that there is anything wrong with asexuality – it’s the writers’ cop-out I object to).

    Another element where I feel WhitDoc has not been well served, is in terms of the way elements of this Doctor’s personality have been written.  The Doctor is, let’s face it, usually an arrogant sod, charmingly arrogant, to be sure. WhitDoc isn’t. Again, I don’t have a problem with a less arrogant incarnation, per se, but making the least arrogant version the first female version, speaks to a “gender burden” I feel is being imposed by Chibnall, which feels very earth-bound, rather than Gallifreyan, to me.

    Give me a flirty, piratical, arrogant swashbuckling female Doctor. I don’t want the Doc to be nicer, just because she is in a female incarnation.

    However, as @nerys  says – we feel what we feel, and each to their own. We all have our subjective reactions to different Doctors. I will always remember trying to convince @htpbdet (now sadly no longer with us) to add an “S” to the end of his acronym for SmithDoc, but he never would, because that incarnation just didn’t do it for him.

    And I know @bluesqueakpip never felt comfortable with the CapaldiDoc.

    So it goes.

    I actually do love many elements of WhitDoc – I love her scientific bent, her absolute ability to rig up some bit of  impressive tech from rusty old junkyards and spare parts (which reminds me in particular of Pertwee’s Doctor). I like her moral clarity (her anti-fascism). So, as I said further up the thread, it’s not an actor problem for me here, it’s a writer problem.

    @vervain I like your thoughts about the Untempered Schism, and I certainly think that whatever the Master has learned about the Timeless Child and the origins of the Time Lords seems to have re-triggered his trauma and psychosis, which we learned during the Simm Master era was attributable to his experience when he was forced to look into the Schism as a child.

    In that sense, the mystery may fit with @bluesqueakpip ‘s thoughts on The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas. What if the Time Lords sacrificed or experimented on an original child (or children) in some horrific way, in order to develop the child-looking-into-the-Untempered-Schism ritual of Time Lord initiation (which is pretty horrific in itself)?

    syzygy @thane16


    Agreed. It’s not phallic. I have absolutely no idea why that happened !

    To the rest of the gang. I’ve mentioned before,  about 3 years ago, that the internet’s great. Except when people start using terms that others copy. It echoes.

    Two years ago: new Doctor. Only now, we have one person ‘admitting’ “oh, actually, it’s flat. No bonkerising & it disappointed” & that’s followed by a whole lot of others suddenly writing something very similar. But these same people never stated this at the time! Too respectful of a forum? Felt like you didn’t want to be the one who admitted they didn’t like the new Tardis/the Doctor’s outfit? I’ve no problem people disliking things, but why wait ’til someone else admits it? No one’s going to run at the barrel & cause an argument over a small thing.

    On an unrelated topic the Tardis produces the sonic. Whittaker has never followed how previous iterations do things. She’s on record with this. This is a technology age. The Tardis stores such technology & sends digital & ‘classic’ information to the newly inspired sonic.  But fair do if it grates on other viewers. I found Tennant’s snogging highly irritating & Eccleston’s smile a tad over-done.

    But I worry when on another Forum a poster claims the episode isn’t emotional.  It seems odd others suddenly jump on that. And it’s multiplied.  You don’t want to mention this on your own. You wait & then you decide. You decide to mirror a comment that someone else (you respect) has used & it causes an implosion, a “yes,  me too {ahem}.”

    I find it strange. And yes, I’m the new grumpy. You need to have someone who’s ‘allowed’ to be providing no attacks are lodged.   😈

    We seem to have lost @pedant & others already.  And I understand people were under the impression this was a grumpier guy getting nasty when it was a grumpy guy feeling under pressure, personally. That grumpy guy came to my side in 2016 so now I’m doing the same. I’m going to stand here doing that because it’s decent. Just that. I’m not trying to blame someone, or beat someone. It’s kind. And it’s the best one can do (the Doctor).

    I might hang in the music area waiting for my other pal. I saw another R.I.P & often in January. Who knows, that could be why I feel a tad alone. I need to say what I feel.  These deaths are coming quicker & I’m marooned in an open ocean. I also feel that this Doctor is terrific. It could be that I feel protective of her.  She’s a woman. She’s brilliant at what she does. In this role, particularly.

    But I notice Yaz is basically screaming in between all the running & the bow ties. She’s saying “help.”  If people claim it’s lacking in the fantastical-Moffat period; or it’s heavy; cold, even, without punch;  it could lead to a stifling of the writer’s opportunities. Because now they need an ’emotional’ dialogue with the obvious “I’m scared, but I’m not saying anything.” Do we need to wait before we say “hey, Yaz’s falling apart & we didn’t do anything because she never said.” Sometimes an absence of dialogue is as significant as its other, louder partner. It’s not cold, it’s the opposite. It creeps up, from the side, from the corner of your eye; it’s never said.

    Also, Beth, where art thou?

    Syzygy the very old.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by  syzygy. Reason: masses of code as usual
    nerys @nerys

    @thane16 Two years ago: new Doctor. Only now, we have one person ‘admitting’ “oh, actually, it’s flat. No bonkerising & it disappointed” & that’s followed by a whole lot of others suddenly writing something very similar. But these same people never stated this at the time! Too respectful of a forum? Felt like you didn’t want to be the one who admitted they didn’t like the new Tardis/the Doctor’s outfit? I’ve no problem people disliking things, but why wait ’til someone else admits it? No one’s going to run at the barrel & cause an argument over a small thing.

    Speaking only for myself, it’s not nearly so complicated. It’s usually a case of memory … or the lack thereof. I forget things, very easily. And so, someone else will post something, and I’ll think, “Oh, yes, that’s precisely what I thought! But so-and-so beat me to it!” I try not to be a pile-on type of person. But when someone expresses something, pretty much the way I would’ve expressed it, then I say so. That’s all there is to it.

    @juniperfish Capaldi’s Doctor wasn’t exactly flirtatious, either. The only one I can distinctly recall him flirting with (and more) was River, and that was part of an established canon. So I don’t think we can pin that complaint to Whittaker’s Doctor. Or, at least, it didn’t originate with her. Smith’s Doctor was the last one I remember being overtly flirtatious.

    syzygy @thane16


    No worries, Nerys, this wasn’t about you, or about anyone disliking or feeling something. It was a thought, mainly to do with something else I should’ve been clearer about.  I do have a history, I must admit, of  worrying about the ‘internet.’ My main concern was with how clear Yaz was regarding her emotional state. And how people don’t often ‘hear’ that person who says very little. That was also related to something we all discussed (a few of us) in the Pub.

    Internet: a specific case, recently in our fires, where a person, suspected of arson, quickly cleared, was nearly killed by youtube comments as others ‘found’ out who she was. People said: “oh sure, I knew this about her. But I never said.” Many people pile on. Then she’s acquitted. A case of mistaken identity. It’s as simple as that. But not to her.

    winston @winston

    @thane16  I also feel protective of this new Doctor precisely because she is a women and so am I and my granddaughters and my mother and daughter.They are all strong feisty females ,ready and able to rule the world with strength and with kindness.So is the Doctor! Is she different? Yes and weren’t they all? Does being female change the way this Doctor deals with things? Yes and so what? Is the Tardis different? yes and I don’t like it , but I never do. lol

    Fear is a terrible thing and it does horrible things to us not the least feeling weak and not wanting anyone to know that. Fear eats away at your confidence making you more withdrawn and having a near death experience like Yaz must scare you quite a lot.Hopefully the Doctor will notice and help her.

    You are not alone in that vast ocean you just can’t see the rest of us but we are there treading water with you.I wish I could bring you cheer like @pedant always did for me so I hope he comes back to bring us some laughs and links and crusty comments.I like crusty that’s, why I liked CapDoc so much.Stay safe and stand strong.

    Vervain @vervain

    “They lied to us. The founding fathers of Gallifrey…everything we were told was a lie. We’re not who we think, you or I.”

    let’s unpack this – who were the founding fathers of Gallifrey as far as the Timelords are concerned-

    Rassilon – power hungry megalomaniac so powerful they locked him up inside a tower as he was apparently immortal. He is back, exiled and has an axe to grind.

    Omega – the Timelords were lied to by Rassilon about him

    “The Other” – maybe?

    ”We are not who we think, you & I!”

    We meaning the timelords or specifically the Master & The Doctor?

    What do we think we know about The Timelords?

    They were primarily  observers and     were responsible for upholding the Laws of Time. They were the first race to discover physical time travel. Not all Timelords observed the Laws – renegades either ran or were exiled.

    now comes the bonkers.

    We’ve seen most of the laws of time broken, we know that other races developed or stole time travel, what if Rassilon stole the knowledge form a different universe or a race that actually kept to non interference? Or banished anyone who could stand against his new race to other universes or created this one to rule over it.

    What if the Doctor & The Master are the Timeless Child.

    Timelords in general aren’t taken to the untempered schism – the Timeless Child was.

    Rassilon became a Timelord he wasn’t born one. But having gained immortality and being the reason for why the laws of time came to be (after his dark times) the Timelords seek to protect themselves from the immortal nut job in the tower. they seek to create the perfect Timelord with the drive and intellect to match both Omega and Rassilon – a living weapon who would maintain the Timelords mastery of time and space and safeguard the universe from Rassilon. Too much for any person let alone a child – split personality and regeneration cycles – the child is outside of time and space and cannot be whole whilst they continue.

    the valeyard is the closest there is to an amalgamation of the two


    or what if the timelords are already a dead race.  “Regenerations” are echoes from the matrix. Enough unique memories of a dead adult Timelord wrapped around the central brain/processing core of a timeless child. – what is left of a once great race that have been burning for so long they don’t even remember

    nerys @nerys

    @thane16 Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. I do agree with you. That kind of mob mentality is frightening. I’ve been reading and watching documentaries on McCarthyism, and the parallels between then and now are eerie. I knew it never really went away, but I believed it would never rise back up to the level it has. How could we, as a society, allow that?

    Your observations about the person who was suspected, then acquitted, of arson, remind me of the Richard Jewell case. He was the one suspected, then later cleared, of committing the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. Of course, this was still long before the days of social media (though, at the time, I was discussing this and many other topics with my newfound friends all from over the world on Firefly, an early form of social media). But even then, it was strange how the media enabled this sort of pile-on effect in which people jumped to conclusions. It made me realize how easily law enforcement can succumb to that effect, as well.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    On the question of the mindwipe, I tend to agree with @phaseshift and @jimthefish (now there’s a name we haven’t seen on the board for a while!). It does not seem right either in terms of consent, or in terms of the ways it has been used in the past (eg. Donna) or, more to the point, the countless times it hasn’t been used in the past. And as @jimthefish notes (over on the TV show thread) there is quite a lot about the Whittaker Doctor that doesn’t seem particularly noble. I am wondering, however, if there might be method in the madness. Specifically, if this Doctor, acting in this seemingly un-Doctory way, might be linked to what seems to be a new arc about “the lie” raised by the Master. Could the Whittaker Doctor be…well…not the Doctor? Or the Doctor, but playing a very long game, that will make sense as the arc unfolds?


    nerys @nerys

    @blenkinsopthebrave I thought that after the Doctor used the mindwipe was on Donna, there was a tacit agreement not to use it on the companions. But was it decided that it would be used on no one? For me, it made sense this time because two temporary companions were taken to different futures, providing them with knowledge that would have changed their respective histories, thus irreparably altering history as a whole. So I thought it made sense for them to undergo the mindwipe. But it could be that I’m forgetting something important. Heh.

    syzygy @thane16

    I noticed that when the Doctor said “deep breath” in Babbage’s house, her hand was grabbed by Ada.


    I see that, as much as the recording by the Doctor for the flying instructions (ECAM -personal -to -Ryan -if it was an airbus?), weren’t a retread, more a homage?

    I’ll check for more.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    I did mean to post a response to your question earlier, but things happen.

    In the BG episodes the mindwipe never happened. Well, once, but in a different way. And is wasn’t the Doctor who performed it.

    When we finally meet the Timelords at the end of Patrick Troughtons’s run (The War Games), they mindwipe Jamie and Zoe (the companions) but leave them with the memories of their original encounter with the Doctor. They remove all the knowledge and experience they have accumulated since though.

    It didn’t happen after that. Oh, the Doctor did have mental powers to be sure, but it was mostly healing\putting people into Frances.

    Spin forward to the AG years and it’s one Steven Moffat who brings the mind powers back. In The girl and the fireplace The Doctor and Madame de Pompadour have, essentially, consentual mind sex (I’m pretty sure that’s how Moffat felt about it anyway).

    Spin forward again and you have Donna. Poor woman. I’m always reminded of that line in The Doctor, The Widow & The warbrobe “THINK OF THE VISUAL”. Because the Doctor bearing down on Donna while she’s saying “no, no” isn’t the greatest visual is it?

    And then you have the corrective. In Hell Bent Clara demands the Doctor respect her and her memories. She refuses the mindwipe. With Bill she asks “how would you feel if someone did this to you”.

    Consider Adam in Chris Ecclestons first series. Modern guy, degrees out of his ass, used to tinkering with alien tech. went to the future, sought to profit from it. The Doctor left him on Earth after deleting his download but with his memory (and future headtech implant) complete.

    Consider the Doctor took HG Wells (as @jimthefish has pointed out) to a future on a different planet (Timelash -don’t watch it, it’s awful). It inspired him to write the Time Machine. Consider that the Doctor took Vincent van Gogh to see his future legacy, but it didn’t help.

    Consider that Ada could not comprehend the words “dimensional” and “portal” together. As much as Ada was a genius for her time, she was not a chemist, physicist or electrical engineer. Looking at or even working with a modern computing device would have been like magic. There is a reason it’s taken us so long to get here. It’s all those little steps, like how to purify a mix of ammonium fluoride/hydrofluoric acid to contain less than 5 ppb Sodium to etch (via photomasking) a circuit base on a silicon wafer. That’s how we do it people! Well, since about 1996 when the ultrapure chemicals could be made.

    And I always prefer my Who to be inspirational rather than regressive. I think her experience should have been positive because she was a good character. More HG Wells than ‘mind rapey’.

    Peace Frog @peacefrog


    “It didn’t happen after that. Oh, the Doctor did have mental powers to be sure, but it was mostly healing\putting people into Frances.”

    I remember that time that the Doctor mind wiped me.

    Thought that I was Frances Hodgson Burnett for a year. If you happened to notice a downturn in the quality of her writing…that was me.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    My dear @peacefrog, I didn’t realise you had such talent!

    To pick up on the everyday finger fumble by the arthritic trying to use a touchpad! Lawks alordy! Trances \=\ Frances.

    God bless you! Your parents must be so proud!! I’ll show MrsP your post tomorrow. She. Will. Be . ASTOUNDED!!!

    Peace Frog @peacefrog



    My snark level meter is going off the charts right now. Is it broke or are you really that upset with me?

    I’m very very sorry. I was just kidding.

    Anybody and everybody could tell you that I was joking, so I’m not sure what is going on here. Are you really trying to run off your new members so fast. No wonder nobody posts anything here anymore.


    Yes! My parents are proud of me. I’ve accomplished many amazing things in my short life.

    One of them is not being an jerk to people unless they treat me that way. Want to find out what I’m like when I’m not so nice?


    We all have problems in life, get over yourself.  I almost died over the holidays from an allergic reaction. My throat closed shut and everything. I had giant hives from head to toe. Had to get a steroid shot and take two rounds of steroid pills just to make it through. My entire face felt like I had 3rd degree chemical burns on it for three weeks.

    Guess who the first one cracking jokes about it was?


    It was this Peaceful Frog. 😀

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    You….almost died…?!

    Break out the tambourines MrsP and let us praise the Lord!!

    (You started this newbie – as you say, get over yourself, deal with whatever inner demons you have 😉 )

    Peace Frog @peacefrog



    Sniff…What should I do?

    You’ve got yourself a big mean bully on the loose here and I’m just a lowly new member here and I’m not sure that I’m able to defend myself.

    How should I handle this situation? Should I call for the Mods?



    Wait a minute……It’s a ghost town in here. You probably had to let all the mods go.




    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    ..And yet you initiated this exchange and continue to do so. How very pedantic sorry pedestrian of you? All I want is for you to enjoy your time by conversing with like minded people. I’m guessing that’s not what you want is it?

    Peace Frog @peacefrog


    That’s what I was doing.

    How you think I am the one wants this to continue is beyond me… and beyond you it seems like.

    Didn’t I say that I was sorry? That I was joking?

    It was the tone of your response that caused this and you know it.

    Can we end this now or not?

    I don’t need to be here. Starting to regret signing up.

    I’m sure Craig will be very happy with the way you treat newcomers.

    Peace Frog @peacefrog


    “Hi there, I know you were just trying to be funny but I didn’t think it was very funny due to the amount of pain that I’ve been dealing with.

    I hope that we can have some more interesting conversations about Doctor Who in the future.”


    How hard was that? Took me a few minutes to type. That would have been a appropriate response from a Moderator. You should know that by now.

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @peacefrog maybe calm down a little. You did say you were sorry and you were joking and followed it with ‘get over yourself’, turning your apology into a continuation of snark. I feel that if you’ve lurked here so long, you ought to know us a little better.

    The way the exchange above reads is: you said something snarky, he said something snarky back, you declared a snark war ‘want to find out what I’m like when I’m not so nice?’. So you yourself both initiated and escalated.

    There’s a lot of very intelligent people on here, some of whom have learning difficulties/disabilities/whatever we’re calling ourselves these days, some with physical disabilities, which is the cause of most typos you see here. Personally I er on the side of tact until I know someone really well. And to be honest I don’t particularly want to worry about any mistakes I might make being picked up on, I get enough of that from my MA tutor. 😉

    Degenerative conditions particularly suck. I see my boyfriend getting upset over things, and have to tell him I can’t quite relate, I’ve never been able to do that. (small stuff, walking in a straight line, spell a perfectly ordinary everyday word off the top of my head and so forth).

    Peace Frog @peacefrog


    Thanks for your response.

    My main problem was the “I hope your parents are proud” line that was supposed to be an attempt at “wit” I suppose. To me it was no different than saying screw you and your mother too.

    What I wrote above in my other post was all that it would have taken to bring everything to a more reasonable conclusion.

    Anybody who is tasked with being a Moderator should have that level of competency.  I know it’s a tough and thankless job but dealing with a recent arrival here is part that.

    All I ask for is a mutual level of respect.

    His comments about my trip to the hospital where my blood pressure was 210 over 130 and my skin was peeling off of my face multiple times a day was completely out of line. Especially for someone who is in his position. Most websites and forums would deal with that kind of personal attack with a loss of the ability to make posts. That would make it hard for a Moderator to do their job. After that, they would just ban you from the site.

    I wasn’t trying at all to embarrass anybody about a typo. Just having some harmless fun I thought. Everyone makes typos, it’s not that big of a deal.

    Who is that thin skinned about a misspelled word? I would hate to see a reaction to something that required a more adult way of coping.


    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    I think most forum users here are experienced enough to see:

    1. You started this chain of events
    2. You’ve tried to propogate the argument to stupid lengths
    3. Your grandstanding is embarrassing, even towards the lurkers who just want a bit of argy-bargy

    If you want to have a laugh and and a joke, talk Who and post a couple of choona go at it. You can easily ignore me.

    But your responses indicate you want something more. So make a complaint to Craig and keep it off the forum. I always encourage complaints. Especially when the reasons are as obvious as this one. 😉

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @peacefrog considering your response to his mention of his arthritis was:

    ‘We all have problems in life, get over yourself.’ I’d say the shots fired balance still lies with you, I’m afraid. And it’s hard to convincingly argue that all you ask for is a mutual level of respect when the first person who was disrespectful was you.

    Additionally, you seemed to be arguing in part that you were the first one cracking jokes about your condition – to back up your injunction that he ‘get over himself’, and then to expect a more sympathetic response to information to shared in part to justify an unsympathetic response to what he told you. If you think he should get over himself, then you need to do the same. Don’t follow an unsympathetic response with indignation at a lack of sympathy for yourself, essentially.

    Personally I find your reaction to ‘I hope your parents are proud’ as mystifying as you find irritation at snarky comments about typos. And you probably don’t understand how irksome ‘get over yourself’ can be in that context.

    Peace Frog @peacefrog


    If you want me to take what he said at face value then I expect the same treatment from both of you.

    If I said that his response about my parents and hospital trip rubbed me the wrong way. Then you should believe it.

    If I’m supposed to take his condition and response as nothing more than an harmless attempt at humor then that’s the way he should have taken my initial post to begin with.

    That’s how respect works.

    The fact that I could hear him laugh out loud when I said I almost died tells me all I need to know about what kind of person I am dealing with.

    The amount of twisting and bending over backwards to turn this around on me must be making both of you very sore.

    The amount of hypocrisy here is getting very deep.

    Enjoy your closed off section of the web where it’s obvious nobody else is welcome.

    I’ve already heard from other members about what has been going on here. Eventually it’s going to be Phaseshift moderating nobody but himself.

    Peace Frog @peacefrog

    “You almost died…?!

    Break out the tambourines MrsP and let us praise the Lord!!”


    This is the person that you left in charge of moderating @craig…..

    Good luck with that!

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Oh dear… Bored now.

    Take it by PM to Craig. As I suggested. A good while ago. You remember?

    Any further additions will be DELETED. To allow the rest of the Forum to get on with enjoying themselves.

    Peace Frog @peacefrog

    Did it after your very first post genius.

    I don’t need a mod to inform me of what the proper procedure is.

    But you need somebody to inform you how to do your job.

    I see now why you want to run everyone off.

    You hope that leaves so you don’t have to anything around here.

    That way nobody can tell how incompetent you are at it.

    I’ve left notes for the people that I want to so nuke my posts and my account.

    This didn’t have to be this way but you are too stubborn and insistent on stroking your own ego to be able to see that.

    syzygy @thane16

    @phaseshift @miapatrick

    I feel you are in attack mode?

    I think a mod can be above that & attempt to be decent. It wasn’t decent, imo.

    @peacefrog is a newbie. Maybe you’re judging him/them/her on one post when all his other posts have been genuine & interesting.

    Once again I reiterate that this is a Good Place. The snark can leave now. It’s been a decent interval.

    Syzygy (old Puro).

    nerys @nerys

    @phaseshift Thank you for that history lesson on the mindwipe. I’m a relatively new viewer, only post-gap, and so I thought the mindwipe (and the reasons for using it) went back farther than that. So, in that context, I can see your point.

    And yeah, one of my least-favorite moments on Doctor Who was the mindwipe done on Donna. All that she had done, all that she experienced, all that growth she had made as a human being … gone.

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 In my case it was essentially me, in a bad mood, butting in on someone else’s argument, which was my bad.

    Spider @spider

    Just a thought: Maybe the Master DID try and interfere in things during his 70-odd years the long way round, but in doing so managed to be the one who foiled all his old plans along the way :D. Just thought that would be rather amusing.

    Or maybe Thirteen knows everything was ok because she also lived through that 70+ years when she was Twelve in Bristol … hmmm!


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Impressions watching Part 2 for the first time…

    Perfectly true that airliners (particularly Airbus) are flown by computer, and that the computers are under the cockpit floor. (Bjorn Pilot did a video on Youtube showing the computer room on an A350. The A320 (which they are in) is smaller and not quite so computerised, but I’m sure the same applies. Also, the computers control, not just the engines, but equally important, the flight controls. I rather doubt they have convenient access doors in the cabin floor and USB cellphone interfaces but I’ll concede that one 🙂
    Also, Airbus have demonstrated full auto flight – that is, takeoff, flying en route and autoland – without any pilot intervention (though there was a flight crew on board). Autoland is in fact routine now. And there is discussion of a Big Red Button which, when pressed, will cause the aircraft to automatically select the nearest suitable airport, broadcast the necessary emergency messages, and land itself. So the app on Ryan’s phone is technically possible right now.

    The sequence in Ada’s mind (?) is nicely surreal. (Ada – any relation to Ada Lovelace?) (Well, apparently the Victorian gentleman who welcomed Ada back from her trance is named Babbage. I wasn’t aware that Charles Babbage had an interest in such matters, nor that Ada Byron, Countess Lovelace, did. Maybe I haven’t read enough into their background).

    When will the Doctor learn not to baffle people with incomprehensible jargon? She’ll end up in a rubber room sooner or later. Rescued from 1835, ironically, by the Master – but ouch! – this Master has gone completely psychopathic.

    … nor was it ever recorded that Ada Lovelace had an aptitude for Gatling guns or grenades. Maybe this is an alternate universe.

    Ryan smashing his phone is annoyingly stupid, and smashing Yaz’s is – unacceptable. I’d slap the idiot silly for that. Stamping on it will make it unuseable – for the owner – but won’t necessarily stop it transmitting to the spooks. Just switch the darn thing off! Take the SIM card out. Take the battery out if you’re really paranoid. Then you’ve still got a working phone if you later need it. And don’t leave the wrecked phone lying there *with all your data in it* for the spooks to pick up (assuming they haven’t already downloaded it all…)

    Not sure I’m happy with messing with the history of Babbage and Ada Lovelace. For some reason I’m more disconcerted by that, than messing with Shakespeare or Dickens, I don’t know why. And Noor Khan was also a real person. Wish Chibbers would stop this sort of thing, he’s messing with real peoples’ stories.

    Laser shoes are a bit of a joke, aren’t they. Most likely thing is to shoot your own ankle off, next most likely is the people standing next to you.

    Ryan is getting to be a serious liability, telling the spooks their plan. If I was Yaz I’d ditch him.

    Telepathic communication between the Doctor and the Master – I think that’s new. And a bit inconsistent considering she never clicked to who “O” was.

    Barton managed his great chunk of exposition in his speech pretty well, actually.

    Hmm, I do quite like the idea of using all humans as DNA-encoded hard drives. Not sure what incredible quantities of data needs to be stored on them though. Or why the Kasaavin needed to spy on the human development of computing. Oh, and (without wishing to denigrate her) Ada Lovelace was not the sole start of computing – Babbage had something to do with it too.

    Speaking of which, I noticed the Doctor quite resolutely mindwiped Ada and Noor Khan. I don’t see this as seriously inconsistent with Clara and Bill. Those two were companions who the Doctor had invited along, and felt responsible for, and Bill continued to be a companion, so the circumstances were different. Ada and Noor Khan were chance acquaintances, and furthermore Ada was an important historical figure who could have seriously derailed history. Noor Khan, sadly, less so.

    The destruction of Gallifrey, and the Timeless Child thing, is new. I’m aware its – controversial. Not sure if it contradicts any previous canon, yet.

    Overall, an okay episode, though I didn’t like it as much as Part 1.

    I do like the way Yaz is developing, good that she’s finally been given a bit more to do. Though Ryan it seems is going the other way. The Doctor is improving a little, be better if she didn’t gab on so much. (A bit late now to say that, of course).

    janetteB @janetteb

    @dentarthurdent Another excellent review. Not sure what I thought of this episode but I feel that it was a bit of a let down after the promise of pt 1 however it is so often the case that the build up is better than the resolution so I have come to expect it with two parters. I often prefer the first half of films when the setting and characters are being established and switch off once the action takes over.

    Ada Lovelace is an interesting person and I would love to see her featured in a decent biopic. Babbage too. There is a film or tv series coming out soon about Noor Khan so hopefully that will do her justice.

    Regarding the destruction of Gallifrey, yes it annoys me but not because it goes against canon though isn’t Me sitting in the ruins of Gallifrey at the end of time? Maybe it is jsut the end of the Universe. It annoys me for two reasons. Firstly Moffat brought Gallifrey back with RTD’s blessing in Day of the Doctor and I felt that destroying it again with in a few years is a bit rude. Secondly I suspect the reason Moffat restored Gallifrey is because it adds richness to the Who universe which is under-developed. Gallifrey gives writers something to hang a story from. Dr Who has countless alien species but no fleshed out universe or cultures off earth and even on earth there is not much breadth. This is the biggest weakness with Who overall in my view. The only planets that are really revisited, that have some vague fleshing out are Gallifrey and Skaro. Dr Who needs more established worlds beyond earth, not less. Even Earth is “de fleshed” by the loss of UNIT. (Another gripe)

    AS a writer having a rich, well developed alternative world/universe to dip into is a massive aid to story generation, which is why Moffat urged RTD not to kill of Jennie and why he restored Gallifrey. The  current success of Star Wars for example is due largely to the universe building done in the comic series. The richer the universe the more there is to draw on creatively.

    The Timeless Child story had potential to add to Who lore and the Who Universe. I have not watched the most recent series so I don’t know if it does or not but I am hoping that RTD does run with at least a version of it. The potential for meeting up with alternate Doctors is promising.




    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @janetteb Thank you for reading my comments of Part 2, though I think ‘review’ is dignifying my collection of random impressions a little more than it deserves 🙂

    I agree with all your comments. As regards Gallifrey, Me sitting in the ruins at the end of the universe is, I think, entirely compatible with Gallifrey being destroyed at some point (or even abandoned and crumbling with time – that would have been an option which Chibnall just pre-empted. Though of course it couldalways have been rebuilt).

    It is a little disconcerting to have Gallifrey destroyed ‘now’, though given the nature of the Doctor – a time traveller – ‘now’ is sometimes hard to pin down. And also, given that it’s in a different galaxy, and considering special relativity, it is technically impossible for Gallifrey time to be fixed precisely in regard to our local time. (I don’t know how far away Kasterborous is, probably only a small time difference compared with the age of the universe. So this point is probably irrelevant).

    I do agree, having more established planets to choose from would be a good resource for writers. All the many, many other planets visited have tended to be one-offs, for the benefit of the current story (except, as you say, Gallifrey and Skaro). Re Earth resources, UNIT of course, can always be re-established (and Chibbers left that option open). Torchwood was pretty well destroyed in its last series, I think. Oh, I’ve just read that that was written by – guess who. Do I see a pattern emerging here? 🙂

    Not just Ada, Babbage and Noor Khan, I’m always a little bit uneasy about involving real historic characters in fiction. The more recent they are, the uneasier I get. It seems disrespectful to change anything about their character (and virtually any fictitous events can’t help but throw a fictitious light on their character). I guess really pre-eminent figures like Churchill, Kennedy, Hitler, Stalin, Victoria et al are sufficiently well known and documented to be immune to that effect. (Understand, in no way am I comparing those people in any respect except their public prominence). Also, I don’t care if anyone slanders Hitler. And I think Julius Caesar and Cleopatra and probably even Boadicea are beyond help by now 🙂 But lesser-known figures like Ada Lovelace, Beethoven, George Stephenson, Marie Curie (to take the first four names that come into my head) – I would not want their enduring ‘public image’ to be determined by the topical requirements of a science-fiction story plot. Maybe that’s just me.

    (Right, off to see a T Rex at Auckland Museum.   I wonder if it’s full of artron energy?)

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    P.S.  (Separate comment ‘cos the website seems to swallow any message if I try to edit it) –  when I said ‘lesser-known’ in respect of Ada Lovelace, Beethoven, George Stephenson and Marie Curie – *of course* everybody knows their names!   But, how much does the ‘average person’ know about them?   Usually just one notable fact, maybe two.   That’s how I mean ‘lesser-known’.

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