Death in Heaven

[Davros @davros]

@coly: yes, I thought about Orson too.

But, Time Can Be Rewritten.

[Davros @davros]

Sorry for all these postscripts…

Not at all displeased to see Nick Frost there. It was only a matter of time, as the rest of the cast of Spaced has already been in Doctor Who (Bailey, Pegg and Hynes).

[Ajanka @ajanka]

Ok so I don’t think it am the only one that was a little dissapointed in this episode. It seems like the doctor and Clara have been a little slow since the entire season. They usually sort the problem out a lot faster. And I keep going back and forth on if I like this doctor or not. He reminds me a lot of the third doctor which I really enjoyed but for some reason I am not getting the same satisfaction. It seems like they were trying to go back to that setup with the doctor working with unit and Osgood possibly taking over as companion or at least joining in battling the master\missy. This would have repaired a lot of the awkwardness we have been getting from the doctor and Clara. But now that this seems off the table I have a plot twist that will fix everything. Clara was telling the truth that she made up her identity but she was actually the master (younger version of missy) and that is why missy chose her. Big paradox changing your own time line but who cares. The doctor and Clara face off after she finds her fob watch.

[Anonymous @]

hello doctor who fan so about last year I got in to doctor who and I had watch all the season leading up too now It took about 2 months to watch them all and the reason I started to watch it was because torchwood . so now after watch this season I can say I think peter is doing a great job as the doctor but I feel like some thing could have been changed this season for him , like the tardis and sonic screwdriver among other things but we can only hope that next season Steven make those changes but about the season finally on the action side compared to other it wasn’t as strong as I would like it but on the emotion side I felt like I was wonderful Clara really showed how much she loved and miss Danny and also what she would do to get him back but I have to say with how it played out with missy and the cyberman  and the bring back the dead was a something they had to have been planning for year. I know that missy will be coming back causes she died to easy in the finally her being a time lard and stuff I felt she should have regenerated . but over all great season cant wait for xmas special to come to see that and next season.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

The return of LindaLee (@Juniperfish et al)

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Thanks @pedant 🙂 She looks a bit fed up with doing it in this one, I think!

 

[robnuck83 @robnuck83]

So I have been trying to figure a few things out since the finale, some of this may have been answered already and if so I apologize. But keep in mind this post alone has 506 replies. This is what I think I know and to be honest I am not sure I am right about anything. Also I have not read any of the books or comics. I have only watched the episodes of Classic Who and the revamp from 2005. I would like to read the books but I would have to read them all in the correct order, etc.

From this website (http://meshyfish.com/~roo/index.html) Not sure about how accurate it is

But from that website and a few others I found out some things: like the actual circumstance that led to the Master running away from the Time War. Also, that there may have been multiple copies of the Time Lords planet and how The Master/Missy could have ended up with the Time Lord tech used throughout this season.

But how did the Master become Missy? Did Rassilon (End of time) kill him, did they make a deal for more regeneration’s?
If Rassilon was dead how was he even alive during The Last Great Time War?
At what point in Missy’s timeline after “The End of Time” did she give Clara the phone number to the TARDIS?

When the 10th Doctor ended the Master’s Plan in The End of Time, I get that Gallifrey was pulled from the Time Loop created by “The Day of The Doctor”. But when the Doctor destroyed the bridge did Gallifrey go back to its original position, galaxy etc or a random spot in the Universe?

None of which was even touched or teased during the most recent season.
Would anyone please help me fill in some of the gaps?

[Anonymous @]

@robnuck83  hello and welcome!  I think that a TL can regenerate when needed -I’m assuming (though I could be wrong) that Sim’s TL regenerated into Missy at some point during Smith’s character arc. I thought Rassilon and The Master ended up somewhere -eventually a stasis cube during, before and into the future 🙂 of the 50th anniversary. So Gallifrey was saved. If it was saved and Rassilon and the Council were saved, then The Master could also ‘exist’. I believe this is explained in Dark Water and Death in Heaven -I have the new series (complete with Tardis sounds) in my lap and may well get to re-watch that in the next week thereby double checking my own conclusions. Have you seen the eps more than once? It can be refreshing.

The fact that it was the TLs behind the ‘crack in the wall/universe’ may well be suggestive of their position. We now know, at the very end of DiH, that Missy gave The Doctor incorrect coordinates -in that way, it was most certainly touched on. We don’t know where, in the universe, Gallifrey is -neither does or did the Doctor. I think Missy does know. Recall the splendid pathos where Capaldi, having taken the Tardis to the coordinates, opens the door and sees….nothing.

He comes back in side and chips and hacks at the Tardis before falling into a heap -OK, it’s a lot more dramatic and poignant than that, but I’ve been watching silly Christmas tele.

Perhaps the Christmas Special will deliver some more answers!

Kindest, puro.

[Anonymous @]

@doctor1994  welcome to you too. I think that the Tardis was definitely changed. Did you notice book cases, black boards, console systems etc?

Glad you enjoyed it. Have fun during the Christmas Special.

Kindest, purofilion

[Anonymous @]

@<span style=”color: #3366cc;”>purofilion</span>  Thank you  see the changes they had made to the tardis but I hope they do change it cause it still matt smith tardis to me and I want to see peter new tardis and new screwdrivers as well I hope in the Christmas special tonight we may see a change like they once did with smith before. merry Christmas too all my who people

[thepossiblegirl @thepossiblegirl]

New member (and relatively new Whovian) here!

Anyone else notice similarities between the denouement of this episode and that of the Classic season 8 episode “Colony in Space”? Both see the Master tempting the Doctor with virtually unlimited benevolent military power and appealing to their similarities, and in both the Doctor rejects the offer in similar terms.

I’ve put together a little video juxtaposing the two here. Thoughts?

Admittedly it’s behavior that one would expect for both characters, so not wholly surprising that it would recur, but still interesting IMO (and perhaps a good riposte to claims that Missy is out-of-character as the Master).

[ichabod @ichabod]

@thepossiblegirl

thanks for putting those clips together; I saw many of those older eps as a kid, and enjoyed them, but I have a lot of trouble now with the dated style of delivery these days.  Says the person who’s still using a dumb-phone because smart phones are too smart . . . but it’s true, I get distracted by the more stagey, declamatory style, and I don’t hang out much at TCM either.  It’s hard for me to compare them, so I’m curious to see what others here have to say . . .

[Anonymous @]

GUYS GUYS GUYS  What if Osgood isn’t dead??!?!?! What if it was the ZYGON Osgood that died? We never really found out what happened to them…

[Anonymous @]

Also Moffat said the Osgood died because <span style=”color: #555555;”> “One thing I was very determined about was that the Master/Missy would have to kill somebody we liked in the most cruel, heartless and terrible way to absolutely say that this person is shockingly evil. Osgood was the one we flung on the fire to make the Master burn brighter.” So… he did that to make the Master MORE evil?? Not the best way…</span>

[Anonymous @]

DW1716231163

OK. Gettin’ the hang on the tag you have 🙂

I think Moffat’s right in this: he needed to demonstrate the power and evil of The Master. Killing an ‘unfortunate’ was essential. Without it, we’re less invested. She’s evil. She’s mean. She gives false coordinates to the Doctor and look at Capaldi’s reaction to that as he smashes up the Tardis console and then weeps. This in the world of the lying café scene where he says (to allow Clara a life of her own) “I found Gallifrey. I did”. Clara says: “I’m with Danny. He’s alive.”

I think it was the ‘real’ Osgood. The entire 2-parter was filled with Tragedy. Evil’s part of that. It stands.

Regards, puro.

 

[Anonymous @]

@DW1716231163

Clearly I wasn’t gettin’ the hand of it! Up is for you. Cheers.

[Anonymous @]

@purofilion yeah I’m on season 3 of supernatural and it’s AMAZING. The numbers in my username is from the 50th anniversary of doctor who, the exact time and date of when the first episode ever was aired. It’s pretty long, whoops, but it’s never taken 🙂 and my favorite thing about doctor who is definitely finding other people from my school who also like it. Then we fangirl in the middle of the hallway. 😛

[Anonymous @]

@DW1716231163

Yeah, I got that eventually -the date. Not sure how I coulda missed that! So oops.

It’s taken!! I’m sure everyone else would realise it immediately. Ah, hallway: school. Indicates a school not in Oz where school rooms open to ‘outside’ rather than a corridor, though that’s not always the case. 😉

 

[Marinaaa @marinaaa]

I just joined this forum to say one thing – I am a big doctor who fan (starting from way, way back) and have loved all the past doctors until this one. I hope they choose a new doctor who soon.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@Marinaaa

1/10 for content, 0/10 for technical merit.

[Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty]

Oh dear, it is far too early in the evening to be this much in need of bed :/

So inevitably, a thing pops into my addled head.

So you do 1 really important thing 13 times in your 13  different selves, because you need do it 13 times in order to make sure you get the really hard sums really right, and you are doing the really hard sums right up to the very second you need to be doing the really important thing, so hard are those sums. And you remember everything about it because it is really important, and really importantly, it means you are not utterly irredeemable.

You have definitely done it 13 times. Or was it 12?  It feels like you must have done it, because you remember seeing yourself doing it and well, otherwise, why would you be trying to find Gallifrey again, rather than waiting for the situation to resolve itself? And why are you having to look so hard for the entire planet you hid?

Unless … you’ve not actually completed that part of the calculation yet.

So you can’t find it until you complete the calculations. Or you can’t complete the calculations until … you find it? In all of time and space.

And of course, you cannot participate in the hiding of it until you know where you are putting it. Because if you can’t find it, you can’t have put it there, surely?

But you know it had to be you that crossed the ts, because no-one after you turned up. So it has to be this you. Better get on it.

Tick tock.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@barbaralefty

Unless … you’ve not actually completed that part of the calculation yet.

I think that’s a given. The Smith Doctor couldn’t have invited the Capaldi Doctor to the party, because he didn’t know there was going to be a future incarnation. Furthermore, the other Doctors all thought they were putting Gallifrey in stasis. But Gallifrey isn’t in stasis.

So the calculations worked – but not as planned. Why? Well, he’s a Time Lord. Moffat loops are second nature. Better start working on the maths. 🙂

However, the only people who know Attack Eyebrows turned up are the War Council.

[Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty]

Too tired @bluesqueakpip. It’s a given that …Smithy did complete! Dammit. I see now, he had to complete as he didn’t know of any future incarnatio

Ah well. As a way of resolving that plot and requiring the finding of Gallifrey this regeneration, I quite liked it 😉

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@barbaralefty

And why are you having to look so hard for the entire planet you hid?

Because Tom Baker told him to.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@pedant

But does he remember that Tom Baker told him to?

‘The time streams are out of synch. You can’t retain the memories.’

If Tom Baker is representing a future incarnation – that, for the Smith Doctor, hasn’t yet happened. The Time Lords haven’t yet changed his future and given him that new set of incarnations.

[Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty]

@pedant. 🙂

I guess that major timeline reworks in the approach to anniversaries aside, 12 can never interact with any of the previous regenerations then.

[Schamster @schamster]

Ok new to who forums but I am an old whovian. Took me a while to find it(didn’t look very hard) but the coordinates Missy gave the doctor are the same coordinates for Gallifrey he used in season 8 full circle.  on his way he encountered a CVE which dropped him in E-Space. It could very well be possible that Galifrey is in E-Space..

 

Feel Free to shred this Hypothesis into tiny pieces.

[ichabod @ichabod]

Ah — wait — um — okay, the Doctors *meant* to “freeze” Gallifrey but they did not intend to hide it some space pocket or bit of shifted time dimension, but it somehow got hidden anyway?  I thought they meant to do both things — freeze it and hide it — presumably (in my teeny head, anyway) if you just freeze it in place, that leaves it vulnerable to anybody who comes by, spots it, and feels like taking pot-shots at it?

When did Tom Baker tell which Doctor to go find the thing again?  I’m not remembering that.  I’m also in the dark about E-space.  What’s it?  Help?

[ichabod @ichabod]

re Marinaaa — I really am at a loss to understand why people keep dropping in here, on a site clearly used for comment and analysis by people who like Doctor Who as a concept and a show, in order to say they hate Peter Capaldi’s Doctor or Jenna Coleman’s Clara or Moffat as a writer.  And they keep saying something like, “I only came here to say THIS: I like DW but mostly *hate hate hate*!!”  Then we ignore them, or a calm, well thought out salvo is fired by one of us over their bows, and they slink off sulking.  It’s WEIRD.

[Schamster @schamster]

Ichabod Tom Baker told Matt Smith At the end when they discussed the name of the painting “Galifrey Falls – No More”.

 

E-Space or Exo-Space is An entirely different dimension outside of N-Space or Normal-Space. as referenced in season 8 “Full Circle”.

[lisa @lisa]

@schamster — I recall that was an alternate universe that Romama chose to stay behind in?
So wouldn’t the Curator Doctor Tom have known this? He might have mentioned it at the time of
his meeting SmithDoc in the museum or a least a clue! I guess he felt he had a good reason
not to but this is all very interesting

[ichabod @ichabod]

@schamster — Thanks!  I somehow forgot that bit of the dialog between Matt Smith and Tom Bakker in front of the painting.  Did Baker say *why* Gallifrey has to be found — I mean, apart from the discomfort of being frozen in time until that happens (although if the people of Gallifrey are *really* frozen in time, doesn’t that mean that their minds and thoughts are also fixed on a single instant, so no suffering or even awareness on their part is implied, so — ?)?

Is E-space an alternate universe, then?  Or just a type of alternative space (or phase of time?), literally, sort of scattered around in the Whoniverse prime?

[Schamster @schamster]

Doh! I Should add that coodinates in E-Space would be expressed as negatives.

[lisa @lisa]

I don’t understand how the Doctor has missed this concept because he has traveled thru this
E and N space thing before ? Although maybe he does know that but also knows using
negative coordinates to travel between the 2 universes is difficult and dangerous which
might have been why he was so frustrated and upset in that Tardis scene. Maybe we are all
assuming that he hasn’t found Galifrey but could it be not so much about finding it but really
all about how he is going to get to it? That just might take some “magic’

[Schamster @schamster]

As for the frozen in time part I thought so until the Matt Smith regeneration episode, now I don’t know.

 

As for E-space, It was explained as an alternate dimension but, I think alternate universe would work as well. but not phase of time

 

[Schamster @schamster]

@lisa I agree, Tom could have told matt if that is the 4th doctor but, the jury is still out on that one.  At least among my Whovian Friends , it is.

 

BTW I dropped a 1 it was season 18 sorry.

 

 

 

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Interesting discussion.  I agreee that Capaldi’s Doctor is still working on the calculations to complete his part of the hding of Gallifrey. Remember that in the Day of the Doctor that they didn’t KNOW that the Doctors’ intervention would result in a better solution than timelocking the planet, but they HOPED that it would.

But the events in Listen showed that Gallifrey is definitely not timelocked any more – Clara was able to interact with the young Doctor. The TARDIS landed there (and didn’t explode etc therefore didn’t cause a paradox). The irony is that the Doctor doesn’t know that yet. He doesn’t know that he has the means to go back there – he could check the TARDIS’s recent flight records to find it. And Clara is so panicked by the knowledge that she was the thing under the Doctor’s bed that she hasn’t realised the significance of where they were.

Gallifrey isn’t where it was ( correctly spotted @schamster ) – the coordinates given by Missy match the coordinates in Season 18 (I’ll take your word for that 🙂 ) – but it IS accessable.

Now will Clara realise that one day, or will we have to wait till Capaldi has done his bit to hide it. And then he’ll remember.

[Schamster @schamster]

@scaryb Good catch on the monster under the bed. That changes things a bit. The wife and I will now be discussing this tomorrow when I get home.

[Sk@22 @sk22-2]

What you think about Clara? Someone think did her of out? I like her. She was amazing in the seaons 7 and 8.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@scaryb

And Clara is so panicked by the knowledge that she was the thing under the Doctor’s bed that she hasn’t realised the significance of where they were.

I think Clara realised the precise significance of where they were. In the Doctor’s past. Which, she had just been told earlier in the episode, was somewhere potentially catastrophic. Remember, she’s seen him change his own past to save Gallifrey. What happens if he goes back into his childhood and changes something that will make him ‘The Doctor’?

Okay, he’s a grown up. He’s almost certainly going to realise that he can’t risk that. But what will that do to him? The knowledge that the home he now wants to return to so badly is there, within reach, at the end of a TARDIS journey to his own past – but he can’t go back to that past without risking destroying Gallifrey again?

I do wonder if he suspects why Clara said ‘never look where we’ve been’, but trusts her enough to accept that it’s a route he shouldn’t take.

I’d agree though that Clara almost certainly doesn’t realise the significance of the visit, in that it suggests Gallifrey may be no longer time-locked. Missy’s escape also implies that, incidentally, so there are a couple of ways the Doctor could figure it out.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip

That’s what I meant.

That Clara is so overwhelmed by the significance of her being in the Doctor’s past that she doesn’t register its implications for Gallifrey’s no-longer-timelocked status.

And I agree with you re Missy clearly being out and about when she should also be timelocked. I’m surprised the Doctor didn’t have a peek at the TARDIS flight logs after Listen, despite/because of  Clara’s warning. It’s not like him to do what he’s told, haha.

Btw are we thinking that Capaldi Doc doesn’t remember the events of Day of the Doctor yet, cos he hasn’t got there yet? (He’s still doing the blackboard calculations). And Clara presumably doesn’t know of his involvement as I don’t think she witnessed it, did she? (Time for a rewatch of DotD I think 🙂 )

 

 

[Schamster @schamster]

@Bluesqueakpip  and  @ScaryB  I was under the impression that since Gallifrey had been removed, not destroyed, and “The Moment” had not been used. That it could no longer be time locked… I type this and remember the council telling Rassilon that they were still time locked, and that The Doctor still held “The Moment”.

 

So forget all that.  My question is now, Where was it said that the barn was on Galifrey?

[lisa @lisa]

@bluesqueakpip @scaryb @Shamster – Can someone explain to me if we are supposed to be
thinking that Clara recalls everything that happened in the freezing of Galifrey? So
it all happened in ‘normal time’ for her so she should be able to recall all of it.
So she knows that he was there with all the other timelords
She and Capdoc must have conversations about that and also about all his calculations
on the chalk boards which have to be all about Galifrey? She might think that going back
into Galifrey’s past could make sense because it was before it became time locked? She
might not even realize that she has any secrets about that? Not sure that I’m making
sense but it just seems to me that Capdoc must be retaining SmithDocs memories of the
events and that Clara doesn’t know what she doesn’t know? What do you all think about all that?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@schamster The barn is referenced again in Listen – Clara says something to the young Doctor along the lines of 1 day you’ll come back to this barn and you’ll be very scared, accompanied by an image of Hurt Doctor approaching the barn. We are clearly meant to see them as the same.

Apologies for my phrasing in the earlier post – I said timelocked when I should have said hidden/displaced.

@lisa I don’t think CapDoc necessarily remembers the part he played in Day of the Doctor – there was a reference in it, and in other multiple Doctor stories about (out of normal timeline) memories not being remembered till the appropriate time. Eg Nine, Ten, Eleven won’t remember that they took part in the saving/hiding of Gallifrey until Eleven gets to that point in his timeline when it happens.  Even though all the previous selves were involved, and specifically HurtDr whom they remember as having destroyed Gallifrey rather than saving it. CapDoc knows that Gallifrey is no longer timelocked and is now hidden (due to his previous selves’ actions). He probably doesn’t remember that he was also involved in the saving.

I don’t think Clara saw CapDoc being involved, she didn’t interact with him. If she did then she clearly doesn’t remember otherwise she would have recognised him in Deep Breath.

No wonder Moffat came up with the phrase wibbly wobbly timey wimey… stuff 😉

@bluesqueakpip HELP!! 😉

 

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@lisa  *Can’t* think about it much because brain-melt.  I’m still stuck wondering where that damned Xmas dream-state began and where it ended (if it ended), and how much has really been resolved at the end of Series 8 vs. how much was only *dream* resolved (and so remains to be tackled all over again — like the cafe of mutual lies, for example.

[lisa @lisa]

@scaryb yeah but but but –lol I’ve been trying to twist my head around that time stream idea too.
HurtDoc was brought forward in a time stream event an CapDoc must have been brought back???
So does that still have the same effect on memories. So I know it took him some time to get
his thoughts together after regeneration but it wasn’t long before he leaped onto searching for
Galifrey.
I never thought that Clara was keeping the secret about being under the bed had anything to
do with time locked Galifrey but instead is was all to do with that particular incident taking place.
also I sort of was thinking that Clara being surprised to see Capdoc was not because she didn’t
recognize him as much as that she was in shock that it happened to her? That’s been my take

@ichabod -yeah tell me abut it!! Geeze louise!! love the mysteries but the frustration not so much

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@lisa

HurtDoc was brought forward in a time stream event an CapDoc must have been brought back???
So does that still have the same effect on memories.

More than that – CapDoc didn’t even exist at that time! Eleven hadn’t been granted his extra regens at that point 😈 So I think it’s highly likely he doesn’t remember his part in it.

@ichabod I suspect that the Xmas epi tied up series 8.  eg they’ve both faced up to how they were lying in the cafe – great scenes. But it’s fun to speculate that they might still be dreaming 😀

 

[lisa @lisa]

@scaryb exactly- how can you not exist and still show up? well- realistically there are
some plot holes – I going to go mash up a few jelly babies now 🙂

[ichabod @ichabod]

@scaryb —  Yes, that’s how it *should* be — the lying issue resolved and and put to bed in “Xmas”.  But Moffat said (interview, someplace noted by a bunch of different people), and I quote (well, I *think* I quote): “Everything (of the Xmas ep) but the very last scene is a dream.”

Which (assuming the dream-sequence began either with Santa on the roof, or with CapDoc dozing in the Tardis after the Lying Cafe) means that no, the two of them have *not* actually resolved their mutual deception, because that only happened in a dream.  And in fact maybe all or part of the “Old Clara” scene is also part of the dream sequence (that scene has several sections, remember, including the Doctor waking up — at the volcano?  which was itself an hallucination caused by a dream patch? — not once but twice — and the “very last” bit is the two of them boarding the Tardis under the Clara’s bedroom window).

Okay, so did everything in the Xmas dream as-good-as-really-happen because they both remember it when they wake up (whenever that is), as a shared dream experience?

This is the thing about “dream sequences” — and why writers normally use them with caution.  Dreams in a story can be a ton of trouble, in terms of complications for the writer to sort out later, and reader-viewer bafflement and confusion in the meantime, and maybe beyond.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@scaryb

I’m surprised the Doctor didn’t have a peek at the TARDIS flight logs after Listen, despite/because of Clara’s warning. It’s not like him to do what he’s told, haha.

It’s a pair. In fact, a lot of Listen seems to be pairs. Earlier, he insists Clara gets in the TARDIS where it’s safe – because this time it’s too dangerous even for her. She goes, in the end, because she trusts him to know that. She grumbles, but she goes.

So when Clara insists that he must never look where he’s been, it’s paired up with her earlier trust of him to know when it’s too dangerous (and his earlier demonstration that he doesn’t care if things are ‘too dangerous’). He trusts her to know. This time he mustn’t look – because if he does, he’ll go wherever it is, and Clara knows that’s something he must not do.

He did give her a very sharp look earlier in Listen, when she hands Rupert the toy soldier-without-a-gun. Which is why I wonder if he suspects that they somehow went back into his own timeline.

Regarding Day of The Doctor – Smithy clearly remembered those events, but didn’t know Capaldi Doctor was there. So no, he won’t ‘remember’ his incarnation being there, because he hasn’t yet been there. He’ll remember what he did up to Smithy.

I rewatched the 50th over half term, and the Capaldi Doctor never interacts with any of the other Doctors. He arrives unexpectedly, the Time Lords recognise him, he does something. He is, throughout, confined within his TARDIS and so can’t affect the Smith Doctor’s or Clara’s memory of events.

They don’t know he’s there.

[Author]

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