The Cloven Hoof
This topic contains 915 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by 
-
AuthorPosts
-
13 October 2015 at 03:30 #44650
@jimmythetulip Previously there was a lot of speculating about the Maisie character.
I think it was in the BBC spoiler thread from sometime during the summer months.
Ace, Romana, Susan, someone new? She was with a lion like creature in the trailer so I had a
hunch about Romana but as of now I really don’t know any more. But I cant wait to find out!13 October 2015 at 10:59 #44683@jimmythetupid
where has that been all this time, anyway?
It could be anywhere. It’s chameleon circuit still works.
13 October 2015 at 11:40 #44684@pendant
yes, I know that Mr Fish but thank you for stating the blatantly obvious.
Incidently, “jimmythetupid”? Is that meant to be funny?
13 October 2015 at 18:12 #44700Anonymous @
Yes, that sounds like a perfectly bonkers theory: just what we need! So you’re saying M. Williams (I’m not too familiar with the actress) is actually chameleon arching herself from Tardis to human? I like that. I’m wondering about The Doctor’s Wife whereby House put the Tardis into ‘sexy female’ but her brain and body just couldn’t cope or function with the transference. I remember Rory strived to revive her but this failed and her regeneration/Tardis energy then flew in glorious swathes back into the machine itself: he continued to call her ‘sexy,’ though and patted her lovingly….anyway, I’m blathering and off topic. Too much of the good stuff.
13 October 2015 at 18:52 #44706The Sea Devils were personally a very successful monster, I lived a stones throw from the sea and a monster who literally waded outof the sea was very freaky.
Not all monsters/villains/neredowells necessarily make the grade but I would theorise that most of them hit the grade with some of the audience ( exception being the liquorice allsorts man monster )
Time for another coffee 🙂
13 October 2015 at 18:55 #44708@purofilion @jimmythetulip @lisa and others
Once again, I hate to do this, but can we keep discussion of “Next Time” to the BBC Approved Spoilers thread please? Some people (not me I might add) might not want to know about a certain actor appearing next week.
I discovered just last week that it’s not only people on this forum that are like that. The BBC received so many complaints about the “Next Time” trailer appearing as soon as the eisode was over that they have now moved it to after the credits, so that people have time to switch off. I hadn’t even noticed, but it’s true.
It’s too much hassle to move posts, so I’m not going to bother and, anyway, that the actor is appearing in the show has been all over the news, but some people don’t want to know it is next week (although I bet the trailer will be all over the BBC all week in heavy rotation, so good luck avoiding that!)
But just for future reference etc… And anyway, we’re in the pub. Puro, don’t know if you’re into rugby but us Scots have got you Aussies next in the World Cup, and we have a Scottish Doctor on our side! I hope. 🙂
Many thanks.
13 October 2015 at 19:11 #44710My favorite rubbish monster was in my favorite story “The Dalek Invasion of Earth” (1965). It was, of course:
Yes, the Slyther! It was like a like an overgrown garden plant with a growl that expressed indigestion more than anything else.
13 October 2015 at 19:23 #44712@rob Actually, the Sea Devils were a terrific costume/monster. Go back and watch the episode again, and you’ll see the following:
1) Nonhuman contour, courtesy of the extended headpiece. 2) The actors head was actually in the neck section, allowing them to sea and breath through fabric patches. 3)The Sea Devil’s faces although inexpressive masks, were distinctive and striking, and 4) because of the mounting, were quite flexible, small head movements would translate into quite broad but natural movements of the sea devils heads and faces, making them surprisingly expressive. 5) With better visibility, the sea devils actually moved better. Unlike other monsters, they wore ‘clothes’ which allowed for more comfortable wear and more flexibility. So they were a physically dynamic monster.
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sea-devils-pertwee.jpg
Compare that with the Silurians….
The costumes were so heavy to be almost immoveable, the actors had to struggle to even lift their arms, they couldn’t see out of the damned things. Hell, they couldn’t breath. Compare how physical the sea devils are compared to the Silurians, how much more active they are, and more than that, how much more act-live they are, in terms of body language and expressiveness.
http://application.denofgeek.com/pics/tv/dws.ts.jpg
It’s no wonder that the most radical redesign of a classic monster so far has been the redo of the Silurians.
13 October 2015 at 19:34 #44716@craig Beloved Emperor -I am sorry: typically I was responding to others but I actually thought, “if they’re saying it then it must be alright”
But you’re absolutely correct. I shall slap myself (“you and I need to have a talk young lady” @lisa -is that a ‘good’ teacher voice?)
I know about the Rugby Craig -don’t I know it. The tradesmen at home (pro-Scot and ex-pats) are raving about how awful our ozzies are. One even said our team were a group of c**ts! I don’t think we’re that feral. 🙂
Funnily though, we are more a soccer (football) family and Boy Ilion is trialling for the Under 15 National league on Monday next.
Nerves are flying. Moods are changing. Tempers rising.
13 October 2015 at 20:20 #44721@purofilion @jimmythetulip @lisa
As I hoped to convey, no harm really done. Just a note for the future. Honestly, I never thought running a forum about a TV show could get so complicated. But people are people and they all have their individual quirks.
Puro, I think you lot (Aussies) will beat us Scots easily in the next game so I don’t think you have to worry. But then Japan beat South Africa so you never know. I’ll still be keeping my fingers crossed for our boys on the day. And I would like to apologise on behalf of all Scots for your tradesman’s comment.
I will also keep my fingers crossed for Boy Ilion on Monday (even if you beat us). I have revealed this before but you may not have seen it. My father was a football (soccer) player, and this is what he is most famously known for. I don’t recommend Boy Ilion trying it out though, he got a yellow card and they banned it after that. 😉
14 October 2015 at 08:16 #44757Thank you for the unbelievable information about your dad and the great video of him sitting on the ball!
I’ve shown it to my boy who’s loved it and will repeatedly watch it. Repeatedly. “Thank you” he’s said excitedly, to you. He loves watching all sorts of football related things on youtube. Apparently, football is soccer but I get yellow carded if I say “soccer”: “It’s simply football, Mum.”
He has a ball which he’s allowed to use inside. I know, mad. Basically it’s an open plan house and he uses the ball within a 3 foot diameter, gripping the ball (bare feet obviously because we’re vaguely civilised and don’t allow boots in d’ house) and practising various ‘plays’ about which I know nought.
Still, he has developed the habit of standing on the ball: walking, doing a trick called “around the world,” catching it and then standing on it….and repeating this across the floor until he reaches his destination which, inevitably, is the fridge! Seriously, he’s 14 in 6 weeks and is over 5′ 9″ -but standing on the ball, he clearly towers over us all!
The Scottish tradie -and thank you for the apology 🙂 (you are indeed a gent) is an absolute nut and so is his son. I heard about the speech he gave to his primary class in order to opt for school captain. The speech, so ridiculous, and braggy, was actually halted mid-sentence but nutty dad stood up proudly and applauded anyway while the rest of the school coughed and ‘ahemed’ politely. The kid described how he’d bring in a coffee van for the whole school, graffiti uniforms if they weren’t removed, bring back caning, remove suspensions, allow bad language and the use of facebook/twitter in class and most confrontational and bizarre: “bring back school prayer” (we’ve never had mandatory school prayer as long as I can remember in state schools)
Dad had read his speech and the principal, clearly an even bigger twat, hadn’t.
This Scot is part of a group of tradies hired to rebuild my bathroom last year and is apparently driving the boss mad with his endless talking and competition: the boss is from Essex and apparently Scots are “just better than everyone else, lad, better get feckin’ used to it.”
He does very little actual work -unless you consider making tea and coffee for the other tradies and lighting up their ciggies for morning break, a ‘job.’ His discussion about Rugby was as intensely boring as anything else he says & does. Unfortunately his nutty son worships him (hence the speech).
I respect Rugby -my Dad actually loved it equally with soccer, but in the past 13 or so years I went from knowing absolutely nothing about cricket and soccer to quite a lot.
I realise this is the only truly wacky Scot I’ve ever encountered. 🙂 I think you and @scaryb form our Scottish contingent? I’ve probably overlooked some important additions, though. Not to mention the Doctor himself, Missy and Amy Pond 🙂
With them on your side, you’ll win the rugby 😉
Kindest, puro.
14 October 2015 at 20:11 #44791@purofilion Glad you and Boy Ilion liked it. Wish the boy good luck from me, he sounds like a very talented boy. My Dad was signed to a professional team (Airdrie) when he was just about to turn 17 and he was only 5’6″. They called him “the wee man” but he was a fighter and could still challenge the taller players as they said he had “a spring heeled leap”.
People still talk about that moment he sat on the ball many years later, which is very weird for my Dad. And he often gets asked back as a VIP to Hearts’ games. Here’s a cutting from The Scotsman newspaper in 2010 (click to enlarge). I still tease him about his Seventies haircut but he insists it was all the rage. 🙁
He actually, towards the end of his career, played in Australia. He played for Brisbane Lions for a season (I think they are called Queensland Lions now). In his first game for them he scored a hat-trick and they thought they had the best signing ever, but I don’t think he scored again the rest of the season! Such is football.
I’m very proud of him though.
14 October 2015 at 20:29 #44793@purofilion I forgot to add that the fact my Dad was a football player is how I got into Doctor Who. He would get back from playing on a Saturday and watch the football results on TV. Doctor Who was on right after the football results. There is a reason the Doctor has always had an attractive companion (for the Dads).
So I would watch the results with him and then I would watch Doctor Who with him even though I was too young to understand either. But while football didn’t appeal, Doctor Who wormed its way into my brain.
And yes, in case it crossed your mind, I do look a lot like him.
15 October 2015 at 04:17 #44818@craig you have to love the writing of the journos: particularly that exciting present tense?
Never happens now -not in the sport’s section of Murdoch papers here, anyhow.
I think everyone had a hair cut like that: my brother, 20 years my senior, did. Worse, he got a perm! Beat that with a stick 🙂
And you should be proud of him: what an inspiration! The thing with height is that Boy Ilion believes he’s too tall as a left winger! He’s worried he’ll get taller and taller. I wouldn’t have a clue and whilst some of the Korean players in other sports academies are short and nimble they don’t necessarily score the goals. I think it’s an individual thing. Strength in the core part of the torso seems the way to go. But hell, I play a piano and chuck about a baton, what do I know? 🙂
I provide the nourishment, the Gatorade and the shoulder (several inches lower) to cry on which will probably happen on Monday and the following trial days. 🙁
15 October 2015 at 04:19 #44819still called Brisbane Lions now. Embarrassingly, I had to ask someone that! 🙂
15 October 2015 at 05:55 #44825@craig That’s a great story, and how terrific that the video survives. The seventies, weren’t those the days?
@purofilion Nerves are flying. Moods are changing. Tempers rising. Of course they are, there’s a teenage boy in the house, right? 🙂
Seriously, how exciting. Good luck to Boy Ilion from another soccer mom. You can assure him that height doesn’t have to hold him back. At 16, Arbutus Jr. is pushing 6’3″ (I did ban the indoor balls a couple of years ago when he got tall enough to touch the ceiling!) and plays a solid game, although not at the level that Boy Ilion aspires to. I think you’re right that a strong core makes all the difference. AJ plays several different sports involving different types of motion, which I think has helped him a lot. Like Boy Ilion, he watches highlight reels and plays the online FIFA games, and cheers for a selection of teams from various leagues. Today he is filled with dismay at the Dutch teams early exit from the Euro Championship.
However, we are all elated that the Toronto Blue Jays have won the first round of their playoff run (major league baseball, for the vast majority of you who don’t care 🙂 ). They haven’t even made the playoffs in more years than I like to remember. We only have one MLB team in Canada, so now they are carrying a nation’s hopes and dreams on their blue-clad shoulders. Cheers!
15 October 2015 at 23:56 #44843the whole “what makes a good monster and what makes a good villain” thing is interesting.
I’ve not really thought about the production issues as much as @denvaldron and I’m grateful to you for making me think about practicalities.To be honest I’ve not thought deeply about anything in a few decades which is a shame on me. I’m actually jealous of many here with their insights built on experience.
For me, the Fisher King failed as a monster or villain as I didn’t feel it to be a threat.
Monster or villain – there is a threat to you or your loved ones.For me, I didn’t get that threat. Yet I feel I could have – this monster has abused life/death to use that energy for its own needs. This monster wants to wipe out all life on Earth.
But…. in the limited time we had to understand the threat and it being dealt with, I didn’t get to feel worried.16 October 2015 at 02:15 #44849Okay, just me woolgathering some more, on the subject of what makes Monsters work – the practical edition. I want to throw out a few notions from the classic series, before going new series.
Ice Warriors – they’re one of the wannabe Daleks – created during that Troughton era frenzy of effort, when Hartnell and the original cast was gone, when Dalekmania had passed, and the producers had a kind of desperation to find something to catch the fire of the early days. The Ice Warriors had a respectable career. They had two full Troughton era serials – ‘The Ice Warriors’ and ‘The Seeds of Death’, a cameo appearance in ‘War Games’ and a couple of essential supporting roles in ‘Curse of Peladon’ and ‘Monster of Peladon’ with Pertwee. They also came back in the new series, in ‘Cold War’, and were in the first tier fan film ‘Fire and Ice’ (which actually did them better than Cold War did).
So, in practical terms – the Ice Warriors were just a hellish costume. Based on an alligator, they were a very difficult and expensive costume to build. Lots and lots of detailing. That makes it expensive, it also makes it time consuming. And it turned out to be heavy, and awkward and uncomfortable to move around it. Pincher hands made it difficult to actually work with. Still, it afforded decent visibility. Not a great costume overall. It was nowhere near as cheap or as easy as the Cybermen costume (vacuum cleaner parts, silver painted overalls and a quick molded helmet), or as mobile and fast as the Daleks.
In terms of mythic impact… The Ice Warriors never really found a vibe, a key backstory or motif that made them distinctive. Visually, they were generic monsters. In terms of their symbolic or existential fear, generic.
Then there were the Yeti. Appeared in The Abominable Snowmen, Web of Fear, cameo twice in War Games and Five Doctors. No appearance in the new series. But a terrific appearance (probably their best ever) in Downtime.
AS costumes, they were just big shaggy lumps. Probably a pain in the ass to wear and work in. But they represented a menacing faceless bulk that actually tapped into existential fear. They had that same menace-mass that you get from grizzly bears.
So, when it comes to the classic series and the recurring monsters, those were the big ones. Basically, you had:
Daleks (fourteen serials, a ‘pilot’, two movies, two cameos, and two supporting roles)
Cybermen (nine serials, two cameos, and a supporting role)
Sontarans (four serials and a minisode, and three or four major fan films)
Ice Warriors (two serials, a cameo, two supporting roles)
Yeti (two serials, two cameos, and a major fan film)
The Mara (two serials)
Silurians and Sea Devils (one and a half serials each, or three collectively)
This is distinguished from villains, who I would list as:
The Master (16 serials and a supporting role)
Davros (five serials)
The Rani (two serials, and a minisode)
Great Intelligence (two serials and a major fanfilm)
Omega (two serials)
The Monk (one serial and a supporting role)
So, basically, recurring monsters or villains appeared predominantly in 61 out of about 162 serials.
Of these, only three (Daleks, Cybermen, Master) have made it significantly into the new series. A few others (Sontarans, Great Intelligence, Silurians, Ice Warriors) have made minor appearances.
16 October 2015 at 09:13 #44857and yet the Silurians and Sontarans -as part of the Victorian era group (which name escapes me) are pretty well known from their ‘support the Doctor’ roles
@whisht “To be honest I’ve not thought deeply about anything in a few decades which is a shame on me”. “Oh, yea, roight mate” as we say here. “Nonsense” I say. “Nonsense!”
16 October 2015 at 09:25 #44859@purofilion
“The Paternoster Gang” 🙂
16 October 2015 at 09:33 #44862Ah, thank you!
16 October 2015 at 10:52 #44865Um, that’s odd – sorry ’bout that. Usually check for typos in the edit window, but that rather odd transposition was missed. (I have that “never taught to type properly” problem which results in many transpositions when typing in a rsuh).
16 October 2015 at 11:01 #44866@purofilion
Apparently, football is soccer but I get yellow carded if I say “soccer”: “It’s simply football, Mum.”
The boy need not fret. Soccer is a perfectly acceptable term in wide use – in my decidedly English childhood it was commonplace (it was, according to legend, coined when some public school nobend said “I’ve played some rugger [Rugby Football] and not I’m going to play some soccer [Association Football].
It only became associated with being a “foreign” term with the founding of the North American Soccer League in the 70s and I can see no more wrong with the US (or Oz) using diminutives to distinguish one form from another than us doing so. After all, we started it.
16 October 2015 at 11:31 #44867I had no idea! So this ridiculous “it’s called football not soccer” is simply snooty nonsense!
At the local school, where Boy Ilion is in an Academy -it’s called The Football Academy. Every note which comes home is headed: “football” and when other parents speak about ‘footy’ -the codes of Aussie Rules etc, it gets damned confusing.
Thanks for that -I had no idea of the US connection -and I should have.
16 October 2015 at 11:37 #44868@purofilion
“it’s called football not soccer” is simply snooty nonsense!
Yup.
16 October 2015 at 18:24 #44875@pedant @purofilion
Well, this is why it’s great to have a pedant around. 🙂 I had no idea where the term “soccer” came from. Makes perfect sense now that I’ve been told.
Increasingly, a lot of teams in North America (both pro and youth) are using “FC” as part of their name. But the game is just about always referred to as “soccer”, because with the prevalence of American and Canadian football, it would otherwise be too confusing. Rugby is quite popular as well as a high school sport, and we also have Australian football at the amateur level, which is always called “Aussie rules”. The only one of these that I really understand is soccer, because the boy plays it. North American football just confuses me– although TV broadcasts now come with these great computer graphics showing the line of scrimmage and direction of play with massive arrows and lines that look like they’re painted onto the field. This is massively helpful for people like me, since I rarely see more than two games a year. 🙂
16 October 2015 at 18:33 #44877@arbutus @purofilion
A pet peeve of mine is otherwise knowledgeable English football fans buying into the “Soccer is American for football” meme. You can tell their age from it.
And also, Jane Austen mentions baseball on the first page of Northanger Abbey…
17 October 2015 at 00:14 #44882Here in Canada my grandson plays football and granddaughter plays soccer. Football as in the American game but to confuse us even more we have different rules than the American game.
17 October 2015 at 01:23 #44888trust you to know baseball’s mentioned in Northanger Abbey and not in say, P & P. Northanger Abbey I never had a problem with and yet I know ‘critics’ who did: it’s not well known amongst teachers and students here.
@arbutus there’s Aussie Rules in Canada. Why?
Bizarre (maybe because there’s less injuries)
Boy Ilion has his ‘big trial’ for the national leagues on Monday: about 30 show up on Day 1 and 15 are chucked in the first stage.
We’re all quite nervous here. I’m trying to be positive, jokey and ‘mummish’ and then I just remember my auditions for things and I go and quietly throw up….I keep thinking some monkey of a bloke will try to get Ilion ‘out’ simply by a nasty foul -a big smash to the knee or something. Why didn’t he play piano like me? Something easy, sweet, isolated, nerdy…
Oh boy.
17 October 2015 at 06:58 #44908@purofilion Boy Ilion has his ‘big trial’ for the national leagues on Monday: about 30 show up on Day 1 and 15 are chucked in the first stage.
Best luck and celebrations, I hope!
17 October 2015 at 07:52 #44911thank you dear, ichi. The Boy will indeed appreciate the wishes. But if he doesn’t make it -he doesn’t make it and so the world will go on. What’s that Celine Dion song? 🙂
Guess what film I purchased pretty cheaply today?
You got it. 🙂
Interstellar.
It’s popcorn and movie night in the Ilion household. There are some extras -interviews etc which look interesting, so thanks for mentioning it.
Kindest, Puro
17 October 2015 at 09:44 #44913Best luck to Boy Ilion @Purofilion. I hope he is less injury prone than our neighbour’s son who is still recovering from his last soccer injury. (He kneed a wall.) Enjoy Interstellar.
Our boy, (R2) is nearly to the end of yr 12. His extensions have stretched as far as they can, and Monday is the final deadline of deadlines. I think he is nearly done. It has been a grueling week involving more than one all nighter. For all the missed deadlines and anxiety I think he is heading for a reasonable result though I am sure it has given me a lot of grey hairs.
Cheers
Janette
17 October 2015 at 11:36 #44921That’s great to hear that he’s nearly finished and that you’re nearly done too -actually sounds like you are -just about! 🙂
You’ll need a celebratory drink f’sure !
Kindest always, Puro
17 October 2015 at 12:24 #44922have watched 40 mins of Interstellar and am enjoying it. Thank you.
17 October 2015 at 15:19 #44926Just generally mulling over Monsters (after @denveldron ‘s more knowledgeable production-focused mulling).
I’m still thinking of Monsters as animalistic horrors that simply act out their nature. Villains have schemes and plans.
Monsters hiss and roar whereas villains speak – they have dialogue with the hero.I remember coming across a Freud-esque idea that the Werewolf (in the movies from 50’s 60’s) represented the fears of teenage men who cannot control their roaring hormones from attacking girls (a terrible fear for girls, but also a fear held by the boys of losing self-control).
Likewise the Vampire represented the seducer, for girls someone for whom you lose self-control (and you know you shouldn’t) and for boys the rival for those girls.Which kinda made sense in the context of Horror date-films that teenagers went to.
Zombies (it seems to me) simply represent your own death – they are obviously decomposing corpses. Their animation draws attention to their dead-ness (flesh falling away from bones etc).
The only sexual connotation of zombies would be disease (STDs).Which helps not one jot when thinking of Who monsters as they can’t really be sexual fears in a family show. (plus maybe we’ve moved on from armchair-Freud finking).
In Who – it seems we have a lot of military fears.
Daleks (memory of recent war with Nazis), Sontarans (total war), Ice Warriors (at least AG who I can’t see as much different from BG Sontarans*), Cybermen now are ‘simply’ an army, even UNIT is a reflection on the way the military are in charge when we are in trouble (and not necessarily reassuringly so).
Not quite as armchair-Freud-lite as the mulling about classic monsters, but maybe the classic Who recurring monsters aren’t monsters – they’re villains. Its the Morans-dragging-axes, that are the monsters (that rarely return).Is it because in Who, the memorable enemies need to talk?
* though I love Dan Starkey I wonder if his singularly funny Strax has now made Sontarans entirely comedic, requiring the return of the Ice Warriors to represent ‘war-riors’. It will take a while for Sontarans to regain Lynx’s threat. I have a personal feeling that Moffat hates what Dan did yet seeing how brilliant it was begrudgingly kept it on.
17 October 2015 at 16:19 #44929@purofilion Life does go on when these things are over. But for our children, they matter so, so much, that it tears our hearts apart watching them navigate their hopes and anxieties. And music can be just as stressful! Last spring, my boy did his audition for the elite senior vocal jazz choir at his school. Thankfully, he got on, but he felt no certainty whatsoever that he would be good enough, given the abysmal state of his sight reading. But all I could think about the whole time was “How will I ever comfort him if he fails in this?” When they care about something, they don’t want to be second best, and we wouldn’t want them to settle for that. But what if that’s what they really are? Life lessons suck, frankly, success is more fun. I feel for the Family Ilion, and hope that in this case at least, Boy Ilion’s dream can be realized. I hope the weekend isn’t too long!
As to Aussie Rules in Canada, I guess it’s because Australians came and brought it with them? Why not? We have all the other footballs. In British Columbia, there is apparently even a league. I know absolutely nothing about it or its rules, but Mr. Arbutus is familiar with it.
17 October 2015 at 17:13 #44934Nice analysis Mr Freud 😉 Zombies also have a lot of the “living death” thing going on – shuffling around to someone else’s tune, going through the motions of life without a thought passing through their heads. Middle class conformity.
For me the scariest monsters in DW (apart from the Daleks which had me from their first appearance – I’ve had an irrational fear of sink plungers ever since 😉 ) are the ones that convert you into themselves. It’s worse than death- you are still alive but not yourself any more – eg Varga plants and the Wirrn. The effects were generally simple – a glimpse of furry thorn peeking out from clothing, some green bubblewrap. Or the simple inked-on veiny tracery in The Moonbase. Likewise the foam (albeit with sentient seaweed) slapping up the pipes in Fury From the Deep, the green slime in the Green Death (the maggots were harder to take 😉 ) – all these had me behind the sofa, peeking thro my fingers, when watching as a kid.
I didn’t mind the Fisher King – liked the design when it was well lit and shadowy, but we didn’t understand, or see enough of him to make him a real threat, apart from in the brief face-off with the Doctor. The simpler design of the ghosts was much creepier and scarier (see my comments above re conversions).
17 October 2015 at 17:34 #44935@whisht — a nice summing up with which I entirely concur. Villains have plans/schemes stratagems. Monsters have appetites and instincts. Possibly worth pointing out that Villains are essentially evil (although their motivations can often by sympathetic) but monsters can be good guys. Erato, Kroll, Aggedor probably have to count as ‘monsters’ but they’re not Rohm Dutt, Lady Adrasta or Hepesh.
In Who – it seems we have a lot of military fears
Definitely this too. BG Who is very much informed by the immediate post-war consensus and the fear of invasion, totalitarianism, oppression etc is never very far away. It’s also being written by the likes of Terry Nation and Terrance Dicks etc who not only lived through these times (or would almost certainly have had to National Service anyway) but were also brought up on wartime fiction.
But for AG those resonances have pretty much gone now. War means something slightly different to a modern audience — and certainly is informed by a culture far less infused with militarism than the 50s and 60s were. Perhaps part of the reason that the show started to lose its way in the 80s was that the tropes on which it had previously relied had just lost what currency they had left.
17 October 2015 at 18:08 #44937@whisht @scaryb @jimthefish @denvaldron
Yes, great comments. I’d particularly point to Jim’s point that 80s who lost some currency because those touchstone references became too distant.
When you look at the first appearance by the Daleks, they not only refer to the war Holmes, Dicks and Nation lived through, but the ultimate war to come. A nuclear war that would leave petrified forests, radiation and mutation. I think it was Verity or David Whittaker who vetoed a strand of the first Dalek story that would have seen Ian ask the Doctor if this is what humanity would become. It was too dark, and possibly too much an obvious play on HG Wells Time Machine (for Thals read Elloi and Daleks read Morlocks). These days, the cold war fears of mutual annihilation seem so distant, even from the 80s when it seemed inevitable.
I think the Cybermen’s legacy was cemented by the fact that the first story they were in killed the Doctor. Before he was the first Doctor, as it were. Now that’s a legacy.
A psychology student friend of mine pointed out that automatonophobia is a great boon to the show because it seems to be an inbuilt fear in humans. You recognise the silhouette of a human standing very still. Your fear response kicks in because this means one of your own species is stalking you (yes, examine the evolutionary psychology of that statement). Gasp of relief, it’s a mannequin, or a statue, or a dummy. Over the years you condition yourself to exclude the inanimate from the threat index against your primal brain instincts. Then one day an Auton, a ventriloquists dummy or a statue moves. Your brain short circuits.
17 October 2015 at 19:00 #44941@phaseshift I overlooked the Autons completely. But I think you’ve put your finger on their cachet exactly. They lived in Uncanny Valley. I agree with the rest of your comments.
@whisht Horror monsters/tropes work when they’re a metaphorical codification of real fears or social tensions that we cannot address directly. So yes, sexual terrors could easily make it into Doctor Who. Look at the design of the Vervoids.
Also, interesting observations in terms of the Sontarans having lost a lot of their cachet and being reduced to comic relief, a situation they may not easily climb back from. If we accept the suggestion that they articulated the ‘eternal warriors’ of the Cold War era, then yes, they’ve lost a lot of their psychic mojo since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. They did make a good showing in their David Tennant and Sarah Jane appearances, but under Smith, they were reduced to hangers on and comic relief.
Was Cold War a sort of trial balloon to see if the Ice Warriors could fill a position the Sontarans had vacated? The callbacks are impressive. I don’t think it was wholly successful.
I think next up, I’m going to try and discuss the only two successful (as in, more than one appearance) monsters of the new series – the Angels and the Silence.
17 October 2015 at 19:23 #44942Absolutely agree re your analysis of Dr Who threats reflecting real world fears. In the 50s and 60s threats were presented as much more black and white (pun intended), with the good guys being heroes without flaws and the baddies irredeemably evil. But that’s a bit of dead end after a while as far as storytelling goes; the 80s and 90s were full of conspiracy theories and alien takeovers (eg X Files) and the unseen evil that lurks under the thin veneer of civilisation (eg Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks). AG Who is very much about the misunderstood. Sometimes they do the evil under the benevolent surface, but very often what appears malign on the outside is simply a matter of perspective. 21st century earth (or at least the “western perspective” which I inhabit) is much more multicultural and embracing of diversity – at least on the surface! But all we can do is try.
I like Moffat’s take on making the everyday scary. The thing you hadn’t noticed (or considered a threat before, as @phaseshift mentioned), the thing in the corner of your eye, or the thing you forget as soon as you look away from it. Things of your imagination.
But all new ideas are destined to become cliches after a while the more they get used. The same with Dr Who foes, as has been pointed out. The more the Doctor encounters them, and defeats them, the less effective they become, unless they develop new traits. On the whole I liked Gaiman’s take on trying to reinvent the cybermen in Nightmare in Silver, but felt he went too far in making them all but invincible. Too big an upgrade in 1 step, with nowhere to go after.
Having said all that, udos to the all the production teams throughout Doctor Who for managing to come up with new ways of waking our imaginations/seeding our nightmares. Not all the time, not every week. But every now and again coming up with bold, mind-blowing, time-twisty ideas that change the way you look at the world.
Forever changes.
🙂
17 October 2015 at 19:25 #44943ah – interesting that there’s some sympathy with my rambling (or thanks to people being kind! 🙂 )
Really interested in hearing about Angels and Silence @denvaldron as I’m curious about their similarity to children’s’ games.
But as I have no kids or relations that young I have no idea idea if it worked like that (ie if kids played as Silence or Angels in the playground).
How kids react to monsters is really interesting in terms of what they mean as things that scare.
17 October 2015 at 19:31 #44944Look at the design of the Vervoids.
Noooooo! Please. Not the Vervoids!!
😈
Looking forward to your take on the Angels* and the Silence
*Now there’s a brilliant concept for production team practicalities – dancers and actual statues
18 October 2015 at 03:21 #44982also agree with your idea about war and the military being a focus in Who -BG and Nu-Who alike…great analysis from all incl. @jimthefish and @phaseshift, @denvaldron and @scaryb
yes, you’re spot on: success is more fun. But as I say to Boy Ilion: look at those success stories who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps! Here, a well known and lovely man, a cricketer by the name of Matthew Hayden certainly was knocked back, again and again. Michael Hussey another thoroughly nice chap compared with say, Shane Warne, also did it tough. Failure motivates. 😉
And I’m sure Master Arbutus is quite a success in both music and sport -a real rarity in the schools in which I’ve taught and also at the University where the nerdy musicians heap poo on the sporty individuals (no doubt a reaction from insecurity and envy!)
But yes, every smile and tear is also ours as parents. It’s the way of things: it’s tiring too. Tomorrow has the unusual position of being a Pupil-Free day and that means Boy’s alone for the day giving himself more time to twiddle his laces and get more nervous. I suggested going to a movie and he said “a movie? Are you nuts? I can’t concentrate on a movie!”
I think he’s quietly losing it 🙂
18 October 2015 at 21:17 #45057@phaseshift (or any available mod) I wonder if this monster/villain conversation is deserving of a place on its own blog? I’m having a hard time keeping track of it and it is a fascinating discussion!
18 October 2015 at 21:32 #45060@purofilion Arbutus Junior’s experience is more that the athletes heap poo (love that) on the musical ones. Except, interestingly, on the volleyball team, where several of the senior players sing in vocal jazz so AJ doesn’t feel so embarrassed about it there. Basketball has been a continuing problem, and this year was the first time he even admitted to his coach that the reason he is generally unavailable one day a week is actually due to an outside-of-school choir, and not sport as he has always let them believe!
And isn’t it true that some of the most popular athletes are the ones who have faced some kind of challenge, rather than coming up to their success via the direct route? The character-building struggle makes them into the kind of people who excite admiration for who they are, as well as what they can do. Boy Ilion has faced half the battle simply by having the courage to reach for something he wants, in the face of possible humiliating failure. Because it’s easier not try admit you want something, than to let it be known that you wanted it and couldn’t get it.
20 October 2015 at 08:45 #45201I wonder if this monster/villain conversation is deserving of a place on its own blog? I’m having a hard time keeping track of it and it is a fascinating discussion!
Because the forum systems and blog systems are slightly different, my understanding is that we can’t transfer comments between the two. I think if the general consensus favoured it we could start a new general forum topic (like the companions one) and I could move them into it.
We try to keep topics to a healthy minimum though, so I’ll wait for feedback from @craig.
One benefit of moving is that it may prolong our stay in The Cloven Hoof. Page 18 is the metaphorical start of the owner of the hostelry pointedly collecting empty glasses. Page 19 the not so subtle coughs and looking at the big clock over the bar. 🙂
21 October 2015 at 08:58 #45250“Oh Canada!!”
Congrats and drinks all round. My shout.
Will Mulcair get knocked off with only-what was it? -44, 43 seats?
Whoo-hoo d q d q
21 October 2015 at 09:05 #45251I saw this the other day -it’s a blue drink (not Tardis blue ) but I liked the garnish, the you tube comments and the name, of course.
In a way it’s an “f’ off” to Canada’s old conservatives: thought there may be people here who take offence. I hope what happens in the pub, stays in the pub. One dude, in the comments, was complaining that these drinks are ‘on the rise’ and he can’t get a decent martini anywhere. “Oh poor, poor you”, I thought. “Buy your own vermouth and do it yourself” I remember being about 18 and saying, all self important like: “stirred not shaken.” Bar tender calmly said “oh yes, ma’am” whilst my family spat into their serviettes.
21 October 2015 at 09:07 #45252I think this bartender’s pretty drunk too. “The tholitically correct drink. Ith all the thway to the top”
-
AuthorPosts
The topic ‘The Cloven Hoof’ is closed to new replies.
