BBC Approved Spoilers

[geoffers @geoffers]

also @lisa

i think the case of the two osgoods is that the zygon became more human-like, and especially more osgood-like, and they formed a bond that erased the zygon’s original bad intentions. it essentially became osgood 2, dedicated to the peace. that’s why i think the osgood on the plane with the doctor is the zygon one, the human osgood having really been killed by missy. (possibly, the “stench” missy smelled on her being the qualities she picked up from her new “sister?”)

the evil zygon clara has only been in conflict with her template, seemingly, and doesn’t seem too intent on forming any sort of bond, lol. she/it has other plans, other than peace, hence the struggle…

maybe? hopefully all of this will be made clear in the upcoming episode (and not left to our interpretations)…

[geoffers @geoffers]

@pedant

so true! another thing i wish would be made clear soon, rather than later. though that mystery will probably be kept til clara’s exit is upon us…

:   (

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@pufferfish

I don’t think she has any ‘new powers’ in her mind prison; it’s just showing tenacity and the AG Who convention of  being able to push back when something opens a door between two minds.

Yes, I like that. I can see how it works.

[Mersey @mersey]

@geoffers

I think it’s a part of a message of the episode. It should not matter which Osgood is which. They are equals.

And I’ve always thought that Oswin could hack Daleks’network only because she was a Dalek. But at the same time Daleks chose her to make her one of them because she was very intelligent. Less intelligent people got only those visors in their foreheads.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant

Who has the real pedant? He’s been zygonised. Pedant never uses exclamation marks. I count 2 in two days.

Take me to your leader.

Yep, that part, not so much.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

They are there for artistic effect.

[Anonymous @]

!

[Craig @craig Emperor]

And here are the trailers for next week. Not much is given away.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Just a bit of Episode Title speculation for Heaven Sent/Hell Bent. I think we’ve had one suggestion for the song, but I’ve been thinking about it a bit more since Amazing Grace turned out to be the thematic core of The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion.

So, I’ve found another candidate: Heaven Sent, Hell Bent by American Hitmen.

Not only does the guitar riff sound very Capaldi Doctor, the lyrics look rather Doctor-and-Clara:

Every now and then the pure they call upon us
For the Cleansing
I gave my better half for all that was meant
The passion for my girl was stolen by
A smoking gun
Although I still look back at times

Her kiss wont shake what the hell I’ve done
I gave up my girl for a smokin’ gun

Because I’m
Heaven sent Hell bent that’s what I wanna be
I’ll low-crawl through this shit
That’s what’s become of me
My body may be scarred but there’s a smile on her face
When staring back at me

So sleep calmly in bed
And peaceful at night
On your behalf I’ll take the violence
For you little girl
I’ll end the fight

Been called a devil I don’t give a damn
Your little angel sees just what the hell I am

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here is a BBC synopsis for Heaven Sent:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2015/48/doctor-who

The accompanying picture would appear similar to a scene from Skaro from The Magician’s Apprentice or The Witch’s Familiar.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@jphamlore

Thanks for the link.

So, Gallifrey is waiting…beyond the Veil?

Well, I like my symbolism to be obvious!

 

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

@blenkinsopthebrave:  This is an idea I got from another forum.  Could Veil be somehow related to the Valeyard?

There is one scenario I think where some version of the Valeyard does come into play finding Gallifrey. Where is the one place Gallifrey can be where the Doctor can always find it? What if more came through the final crack at Trenzalore than regenerations? After all, since when did regenerations give the Doctor the ability to go Highlander on the Daleks? What if the Time Lords trusted Clara more than anyone imagined?  What if Missy was, perhaps inadvertently, right when she said that Gallifrey was located at its original coordinates, when the Doctor visited those coordinates?

Because what if Gallifrey is somehow located inside the Doctor.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@jphamlore

Because what if Gallifrey is somehow located inside the Doctor.

Interesting. Or, if not inside the Doctor, what about inside the TARDIS? Hasn’t it been established that the TARDIS has virtually infinite capacity? I have a vague memory (as are most of my memories these days) of this being discussed in the episode “Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS”.

[nerys @nerys]

Speaking of the TARDIS, has anyone worked out why the Cloister Bell was going off like mad at the start of several episodes this season? It happened so frequently, I was starting to think it would be part of every episode. I had a theory revolving around Clara, but now I’m not so sure about that.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Apparently the space station is called Le Verrier (on the trailer embed on the BBC site).

Le Verrier was a mathematician who, using maths alone, correctly predicted the position of Neptune, when looking to explain discrepancies in the orbit of Uranus.

Correctly predicted the position of….

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

@nerys: At least for Under the Lake, the Cloister Bell would have justifiably been ringing because another version of the Doctor was inside the suspension capsule relatively nearby.  It would have been warning of a possible time paradox.

[nerys @nerys]

@jphamlore Thanks for pointing that out.

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

Part of the cover for the latest Doctor Who Magazine. Back to Lake Silencio it seems!!

Who saw this coming?

 

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@pedant   Le Verrier. After successfully `bagging’ Neptune, he then went on to use the same strategy based on Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation to predict the existence of a planet inside the orbit of Mercury based on anomalies of its motions. An amateur astronomer claimed he had indeed seen the predicted planet, Le Verrier agreed, and so the planet Vulcan (I’m not making this up) was  in history of astronomy textbooks until it was decided that in fact the planet did not exist. The claimed sighting was a mistake. To explain the anomalous motion of Mercury, it’s necessary to use General Relativity, invented by Einstein in 1915.

So from a grand triumph to a grand failure. Is this what’s in store for the scientist aboard Station Le Verrier?

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@countscarlioni

Oh, I like that!

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @countscarlioni @blenkinsopthebrave

I am quite amazed at what I’ve seen here -seriously, is it the diner at Lake Silencio? Could it not be a random diner in the US or even the UK? (I know,  I know, it looks like the US: the red vinyl and other little hints that I spy).

Tardis is Gallifrey -that’s way too much for me to handle.

And Gallifrey is waiting: do I want it to be? I really don’t want to see the annoying high councillors who will immediately stick the Doctor in some other trial like Colin Baker – I couldn’t bear it, I think.

The Veil. The Viel. Le Verrier.

Lots of ‘Ve ve’s’

I reckon the diner is a replica -it’s not real. It can’t be. There are no ketchup bottles and it’s waaay to clean

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@purofilion     Yes, I fell off my chair when I saw that image! Just spent  a few minutes rummaging around the internet and I found this story from the Radio Times. 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-11/is-doctor-who-about-to-revisit-the-scene-of-the-doctors-own-death

The image I posted earlier has the 12th Doctor in the back right (at least I presume it’s him). Now, the picture of Clara in the diner 0n the cover in the Radio Times article does not show the 12th Doctor sitting in the back right. Why not?

The text on the cover is surely meaningful too. “Clara is no longer the apprentice-she’s sort of become the Doctor. It’s time we saw the repercussions.”

The Veil. The Viel. Le Verrier.

Lots of ‘Ve ve’s’

Oh! I’ve not made that connection. Very good!

Much time wimeyness ahead it seems….

 

 

 

[geoffers @geoffers]

@countscarlioni

The text on the cover is surely meaningful too. “Clara is no longer the apprentice-she’s sort of become the Doctor. It’s time we saw the repercussions.”

and repercussion #1 of being the doctor is that, well, sometimes he dies? (or is it that lots of other people around him die, despite his efforts?)

: (

on a happier note, plain ol’ clara-as-waitress is just as stunningly beautiful as any other clara, so far! : )

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@purofilion

I reckon the diner is a replica -it’s not real. It can’t be. There are no ketchup bottles and it’s waaay to clean

My money,  based on the Radio Times story and a quick recheck of bits of The Impossible Astronaut, is on Clara being inside the diner at Lake Silencio.  Maybe the key issue is: Is this for real, or is this something that’s just going on inside the Doctor’s head? We’ve had lots of dream or close-to-dream-type state stuff lately (Clara in the pod in the <i>Zygon Inversion</i> as well as the last Christmas special).

@geoffers

and repercussion #1 of being the doctor is that, well, sometimes he dies? (or is it that lots of other people around him die, despite his efforts?)

Yes, that’s a worry as we march forward. Please let Clara walk out under her own steam when she departs!

[geoffers @geoffers]

@countscarlioni

wow, i just re-watched the beginning of ‘the impossible astronaut’ too, and in the first diner scene we see the backs of two women’s heads, either of which could be clara (because of the similar hair)… one in the first booth by the door (with a young-ish african-american man?), and one in the last booth, two booths behind amy and smithdoc (sitting alone, near the bathroom door)!

in the second diner scene, there’s just the one customer, an older man wearing a cap. which could easily be capaldidoc in disguise, given how easily he did the creepy “face mask” thing in ‘deep breath!’

haha, could moffat really be playing such a long game? i wouldn’t be surprised…

@purofilion

as for the diner looking too clean and shiny, i think that’s because they’re promo pics, all scrubbed and photoshoppy. in the location shot of just clara leaving the diner, you can see the black and white tiles on the floor seem to match the ones in ‘the impossible astronaut’ (squares, if you’re in a booth), while the clean cover image has them set at the wrong angle (diamonds)…

 

[Anonymous @]

@geoffers @countscarlioni

Man, you both have the eagle eye for sure!  I didn’t notice the tiles -but, in conferring with the Ilion household (well, really only Boy Ilion, home from school early) we’re going to have a family watch of the Impossible Astronaut to see more clearly those ‘extras’. Thing is, if it is Clara, then would Sir Moff have known, way back then, that Coleman had agreed to be the next companion?

I’m thinking hmmmm, because, now that I think about it, Clara Dalek was in one of the middle episodes in the final season for them containing Rory and Amy before they were whisked off to NY by those Pesky Angels. So, who nose?

But Mr Count, when you say ‘dream scenario,’ how far are those dreams going back? Is Clara in his head -hang on, is she there to protect him, as it were, from The Silence, from something at Lake Silencio***  insofar as she exists to save the Doctor, and once there “you can’t get her out of your head.”  ***Ha! did she do a successful job of that?  🙂 Who gave him the idea of the tesselecta  -it was the Time Group from the 51st century going back in time to ‘remove’ the more hideous humans before they committed “hayness” crimes? 🙂

When the Doctor said “you can’t get her out of your head” I was under the impression it was accompanied by a rueful, sad, worrisome mood and texture  -almost, but not quite, bitter, which suggests there’s something ‘awful about Clara’

Mr Count: I don’t think, for the record, it’s going to be an easy departure, as it were. Rose got her ‘Doctor’ in the end -one who doesn’t age etc; Martha worked contentedly for Unit (and avoided, more than a few times, being blown up); Amy and Rory found happiness together in NY but it was Donna who lost her memories – otherwise she was safe and happily situated (I shan’t say this is because she was married as the Moff haters will instigate further ideas about how ‘marriage is the only ‘happiness’ Moff knows and there are no independent females’ etc etc….She found her man, she received that incredible ‘surprise’ as her and her fiancée didn’t have a bean.

It was someone else on the Forum who pointed out that particular nugget of info, which at the time, I didn’t hold particularly highly -but it was the Doctor’s way of keeping his Doctor Donna safe and secure, and also being able “to put something aside for her grandad which she’d always hoped to do.”

With Clara, I dunno, I think we’re in for an emotional gut punch -of course, with the  ‘lost’ looks, the Danny/Orson puzzle, the “who’s dying here?” comment  – maybe we’re not, and it’s just The Moff playing with us? But seriously, folks, I don’t think so. I think the compass is pointing  to a desperately sad ending. ****

*rubbing hands gleefully* this could be exciting++

****Although it may be so sad that I’m happy to hold counselling sessions in the Pub  -drinks on you!

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

Amidst all the Photoshoppery, did it seem odd to anyone else that Clara Waitress has a string tied around her wrist? Almost as if she tied it there to remember something?

[Anonymous @]

@pufferfish

Well spotted -I noticed it too! Then I thought “nah, I’m seeing things -it’s a funny line across my computer screen” There I am, rubbing away at the screen, and your post arrives.

Fortuitous!

Could it also be one of those -“I must snap this to stop doing something” ? But I agree with your thought, that it would be  a “memory jiggle.”

On a timey “whumey” show, a memory angle would make the most sense.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@countscarlioni, @purofilion

Comparing the shots from “The Impossible Astronaut” with the shot of Clara-as-waitress (that is in the Radio Times link) have you noticed that the black and white floor tiles are set at different angles in the two settings?

If this is supposed to be the cafe from “The Impossible Astronaut” that Clara is standing in, then I would say it has to be a dream version of some sort. It does seem rather too pristine. Almost like the way it might look in…the Nethersphere.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Just to throw something in the mix: anyone remember all the way back to The Eleventh Hour, where there was one coma patient permanently concealed behind screens? 😉

[Pufferfish @pufferfish]

@bluesqueakpip Yup. Always (through Series 5) thought it was the Doctor. Do you think we’d be wise to pick up that thread again?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Musing idly on the title of the next episode,and the advance information on it, I suddenly thought of the Goya etching, ‘The Sleep of Reason Brings Forth Monsters’.  Prolonged lack of sleep , since it results in derangement, also produces monsters, if only in the mind.

The full epigraph for the etching reads (in translation) ‘Fantasy abandoned by reason produces impossible monsters; united with her she is the mother of the arts and the origin of their marvels’  which seems apt, if only tangentially.

[Anonymous @]

@mudlark

excellent recollection of that Goya etching and caption -and definitely apt.

@bluesqueakpip and @pufferfish

Oh my, the coma patient. I don’t remember that specifically – I can recall it was Olivia Coleman  -was it? who ‘played’ Prisoner 1 and happened to be with 2 little girls (how ironic: 2 small girls after the Zygon Invasion).

Who was Prisoner 1 anyway? Were they identified?  I recall ginormous blue eyeballs – the eyeballs of the creatures within the star shaped, sapphire coloured space craft locating the position of the escapee.

[geoffers @geoffers]

@pufferfish

what’s that old saying? “no bonkers theory is ever finished, merely abandoned!” 🙂

[geoffers @geoffers]

@blenkinsopthebrave

the on-location shot of clara leaving the diner shows the tile flooring as it was in ‘the impossible astronaut’ (“squares”). the two sanitized looking shots are likely just promo photos, with lots and lots of photoshopping. i think the “diamond” arrangement in the promo shots is an artistic decision? to draw the eye?

it’s been a loooong time since i took those art design classes in college, but i still remember the basic ideas. to the eye (and brain), diamonds are more “kinetic,” squares are “static.” 🙂

[geoffers @geoffers]

@purofilion

Thing is, if it is Clara, then would Sir Moff have known, way back then, that Coleman had agreed to be the next companion?

possibly, but it’s more likely that he might just have gone over his notes from ‘the impossible astronaut’ and thought, “oh, i could do something to make those extras more than extras.” if he “seeds” his episodes with some little spots of ambiguity, then later on he can go back and focus on something like that to make it important? if that makes any sense? i’m not saying he does this, either on purpose or accidentally… but when you’re making a timey wimey show, it doesn’t hurt to keep things as ambiguous as possible, just in case!

[Anonymous @]

@geoffers

I did not know this: diamonds are more “kinetic,” squares are “static..”

But that makes sense.  Also, yes, I agree: seeding something ambiguous wherever possible can be used, abandoned or ignored. It’s like shopping for everything you might possibly need  -but really don’t! It never hurts 🙂

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@geoffers  @purofilion  Thing is, if it is Clara, then would Sir Moff have known, way back then, that Coleman had agreed to be the next companion?  I’d dearly love to know how long a game SM really plays. And along with the point about ambiguity, SM would not need to know who the actress would be ahead of the casting if we just see the back of their heads. I was hoping there might be one dark haired and one light haired actress in the first diner scene in The Impossible Astronaut scene in order for SM to have both given himself scope in the casting of the new companion and to play a very long game. Prompted again by geoffers and after getting on my hands and knees in front of the TV to peer at the `extras’ in the diner scenes, I made life a bit easier by finding the image below.

I took another and closer look at the second diner scene and we do see the face of the extra, but I need more convincing this might plausibly be Capaldi.

Here’s another shot inside the diner with a waitress at the far end with a white skirt, white sneakers and her hair tied back. But the uniforms of the waitresses were black in <em>The Impossible Astronaut</em>, not blue. So, now I’m inclining more towards some sort of distressed dream state thingee involving the Doctor in a post-departure Clara state, but with Clara still `inside’ his head. And to follow that thought….

@blenkinsopthebrave  the Nethersphere  Yes, excellent prod. I need to think about this more!

Time to get a pot of coffee and twelve jammy dodgers…

 

[geoffers @geoffers]

@countscarlioni

I took another and closer look at the second diner scene and we do see the face of the extra, but I need more convincing this might plausibly be Capaldi.

i admit the second scene offers up a pretty weak connection, the guy in the booth behind amy is almost certainly just some guy. however, the girl in the booth behind amy and smithdoc? she could easily be a clara. and, when all’s said and done, capaldidoc IS in both scenes… at least, as his previous incarnation! this could easily be set up as a claricle moment, as well, as in “you were there for lake silencio, i remember you, now.” 🙂

as for the colour of clara’s waitress outfit, that does make it less likely to be a flashback, per se… drat!

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

My explanation is a sadder one for Clara’s appearance in the diner:  Suppose she was gone forever but the Doctor had to see her just one more time.  He has to pick a fixed point of time where he cannot change things.  So he goes back to that diner on that day because he knows she will be there, because she’s always there to try to save the previous Doctors from the Great Intelligence, based on the events of The Name of the Doctor.  But that Clara won’t know he is the Twelfth Doctor because relative to that Clara he has not happened yet.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@geoffers, @purofilion

possibly, but it’s more likely that he might just have gone over his notes

According to interviews, Moffat does plan things in advance, but the problem with TV is that the best-laid plans, etc, etc, fall through because of actors availability, script changes, budgets.

Sometimes he just says ‘Bugger it, I’m not changing the story,’ and casts John Hurt instead. 😈

Other times, yes, he does seem to do a rewatch of an episode and it then sparks off some idea.

The Impossible Astronaut was pre-Clara jumping into the time-stream, so it’s entirely possible that there is now one waitress in a blue uniform working at that diner – who wasn’t there when we first watched that story. 🙂

Or it could be yet another of those ‘Clara lost in a dream world’ stories. Rather than the Capaldi Doctor not being able to get Clara out of his head, though, at the moment I’m reminded of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and The Weight of The World. Or Last Christmas. The Doctor is trying to break into Clara’s dream world.

[Anonymous @]

@jphamlore I love that theory -sad as it is 🙁

@countscarlioni

What a lot of forensic study you did there! Grief! Wonderful –and you picked that exact scene -the woman with the pony tail gives me the impression the hair is thicker and fuller -but who nose? Hair could grow, I spose.

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@purofilion  @geoffers  @jphamlore  @blenkinsopthebrave  & other diner theorists I’ve accidentally missed…

The latest Radio Times story with pictures from the last three episodes of the series is

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-13/has-this-first-look-at-the-doctor-who-series-9-finale-confirmed-a-shocking-theory

So we get to the diner in Hell Bent, two episodes after Clara’s (supposed?) departure…

 

[Kharis @kharis]

@purofilion  @geoffers  @jphamlore  @blenkinsopthebrave @countscarlioni

The cover does look futuristic or sterile.  The picture of Capaldi looks more like the diner in the ‘Impossible Astronaut’ and @bluesqueakpip love the theories, and yes, let’s revisit some old theories.  Why not? 🙂

 

[bendubz11 @bendubz11]

@countscarlioni the penny may have just dropped for me thanks to your article.

What we know already:
CapDoc is alone and trapped in Heaven Sent
Somebody doesn’t “survive” Face The Raven (trailer heavily hinting at this being Clara, I suspect misdirection)
The villain in Heaven Sent is called The Veil
Gallifrey returns in Hell Bent

Coupled with the one quote from Heaven Sent – “When, at last, you rise to go, there will be another shadow next to yours. And your life will then be over.”

If this doesn’t mean that CapDoc “dies” in Face The Raven and is hiding from The Valeyard in Heaven Sent then my name’s Harold Saxon!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@bendubz11

just saw the trailer on YouTube (since I cannot see the episode till tomorrow–drat!) and I think your reading of the trailer is spot on!

p.s. I feel certain that you are not Harold Saxon

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

@bendubz11  Bravo!!  Looking tonight at the trailer for Face the Raven, it makes excellent sense in the light of your reading.  Like @blenkinsopthebrave  I think you are on the money.

If it’s not what happens, it should be. Clara’s impending doom has been laid on so thickly this entire series, I’ve thought for a few weeks that there must be some sort of twist coming. I hope this is it!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@countscarlioni and @bendubz11

Moffat’s playing a bait and switch, you think? Yes, I could easily see the Capaldi Doctor laying down his life for Clara, not realising that poor old Clara was the ‘bait’ for the ‘switch’.

I could also then see the villain discovering they’d bitten off a bit more than they could chew with Clara. As Bonnie discovered in The Zygon Inversion. 😉

Just one really bonkers theory to chuck into the mix …

… Clara is The Valeyard.

Well, why not? She turns up in what we now know was the Doctor’s real twelfth incarnation (Smith Doctor) and sticks around for his real thirteenth. And gets more and more Doctorish, as if she’s absorbing his very nature. 😈

[bendubz11 @bendubz11]

@bluesqueakpip Now that would be a curve ball, I like it! if Clara is indeed The Valeyard then I bow down to you for such brilliant bonkerising.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Surprised this hasn’t gone up yet

[Author]

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