Death in Heaven

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  • #35074
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift

     

    yes! That is the most reasonable answer I have got.

    @coly I second he will wish for Danny to please Clara again..then they will both leave and live without the doctor

    #35075
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    Hope everyone who called poor Danny a manipulative bully feels suitably contrite now!!

    No, I still think he was a manipulative bully with a bit of a nasty streak. 😀 Think about it; he really made Clara and the Doctor suffer, didn’t he? Especially the Doctor, for the terrible crime of being someone Clara loved more. Talk about twisting the knife…

    However, he was also heroic. And he would rather have died than kill that child; and he proved it with his life.

    #35076
    coly @coly

    @Naanbreadd if it turns out Santa can bring back Danny and he and Clara leave the Doc then maybe he can bring back Osgood and she’ll be his new companion. I’d be happy with that.

    #35077
    Serahni @serahni

    Okay, I admit it.  I nearly cried quite a few times but the Brigadier returning as the Eternal Protector pushed me over the edge.  I met Nicholas Courtney briefly once and was left with this overwhelming feeling that I had met Santa Claus incarnate.  (Relevant!)  A beautiful soul who exuded gentleness and compassion, the very embodiment of Lethbridge-Stewart’s final act.  Unashamedly sobbing like a baby here!

    The rest of it finally felt like the pace and tension and action and ‘omg’ moments that I’ve been waiting for all season.  I admit I’m surprised that anyone was actually confused about whether The Master is dead or not, I assumed he/she most definitely is NOT because the colour that enveloped him was blue and not orange.  Looked more like a transportation to me.  Clara’s claim that she never lies to The Doctor is a bit mind-blowy, if only because it seems so blatantly obvious that it’s not true from previous episodes.  Is that Clara just unable to help herself and lying like a trooper once more or will it turn out that she’s technically not been lying all those times it appears she has?  After all, it felt like she was lying to him at the end when she said she and Danny would be fine, but I suppose that depends on your definition of ‘fine’.

    Mind-asplody indeed.

    I have to admit, I still don’t get why Missy.  Like, at all.  I really loved her performance, she felt like an actual genuinely palpable threat, (noooo Osgood!), instead of just a rampant lunatic pulling strings from afar, but her entire motivation is hardly explained.  Her entire existence isn’t explained either and, whilst I do think that was the entire point and I applaud the suspense of it, it’s still an annoying itch.  After an entire series and the revelation of her identity, we still really have no bloody idea what she’s up to other than gathering The Doctor an army.

    Wild bonkers theory:  Has The Master been female in the past and has she, therefore, been one of The Doctor’s previous wives?  There was a good deal of desperate affection in her performance this time around, I felt.

    The part where Clara is ranting at CyberDan, not realising it’s him, broke my heart.  His entire performance broke my heart.  Clara, whilst her performance was excellent, actually came out of this a little less likable than in other episodes I think, though it’s clear from all those sticky notes that something messy is going on with her at the moment.  I wonder how much of being inside The Doctor’s timestream is still scrambling her head, or if there is some impending doom on her horizon as she approaches the end of a theoretical countdown.  (We’ve hypothesised before that all the Claricles died at roughly the same age.)  Is she pregnant?  Is she ill?  Is she pregnant AND ill?  What is this bad news?  I don’t think we’ve been told yet, and I guess we’ll have to wait until Santa Claus can help us find out!

    Gallifrey.  I don’t think it’s that easy.  There was only darkness outside that door.  Santa didn’t seem impressed with either of their reassurances either.  Both of them lying to each other for each other’s perceived benefit, wishing each other a happy ending whilst they return, alone, to their own nightmares.  Can’t wait for Christmas!

     

     

    #35078
    coly @coly

    There is something that is bothering me about the finale though. In the episode, Listen, we never did find out who was under the bed sheet in young Dannys room. I thought that would have been cleared up. Did I miss something? Was it cleared up in an earlier episode?

    #35079
    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster

    @scaryb

    So the dead can now rest in peace, and we can relax that we won’t actually feel what our bodies are going through after death

    Did somebody say that? I think I missed it. What makes you say this? I hope you’re right.

    (Although, actually, in the Doctor Who ‘universe’ I suppose it doesn’t matter much, as most characters get disintegrated and therefore have no bodies to feel anything).

    #35080

    @coly

    we never did find out who was under the bed sheet in young Dannys room

    That was the point of the episode. Not everything is a whodunnit. Thank gawd.

    #35081
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Just thinking – one of the themes throughout this series has been myths, legends and fairytales. And we’re still there with Santa. 🙂

    Capaldi’s Doctor has still to complete his “journey”. He’s no longer mid identity crisis – “I’m and idiot with a box!” (note the non gender specific change from “madman”). But he and Clara have to start being honest with each other. I think that’s where each of them will find resolution. The doctor lies no more perhaps…?

    @bluesqueakpip I still think you’re making the mistake of seeing Danny thro Clara’s lies. Most of what we know about him is what Clara says about him to the Doctor. He’s damaged, yes, by what happened in Afghanistan, which is why he now looks (looked!!) after kids as a teacher, and why he trades his life for the kid he killed. He’s very “bolted down” emotionally. Clara seems to be one of the very few people (I think he lies too – I thnk he makes up “oh y’know, family stuff”) to have got through his defences. As has been suggested a few times, he’s the Doctor’s mirror in many ways. And when he’s cyberised – he’s in massive pain. I was reminded of that line of Tennant’s about being cyber-converted – “It hurts” *shivers* (that was the moment I knew I was hooked on Dr Who again. (yeah, yeah I know, late to the party! 😉 ))

    And look what she does to him – she lies – when there’s no reason. We only think he puts pressure on her (even the passive kind) because she implies this to the Doctor. In order for her to remain in control of her life and of the 2 people closest to her. Her lying to the Doctor confirms this tendency in her – she even admits herself.  She nips off on amazing adventures with this mysterious man with a magic box who makes her sparkle, and then lies to him about it. He gets killed because of it. Then he finds he’s been cyberised!!

    If this seems hard on Clara, I don’t mean it to be. She’s also been through a lot, being clariclised n all(!), even if she doesn’t remember it all. But she has to face up to her responsibility.  (See above re completing her journey).

    @serahni

    What a lovely story about meeting Nicholas Courtney – it’s great when people like that exceed your expectations. “Santa incarnate”  indeed 🙂

    Wild bonkers theory:  Has The Master been female in the past and has she, therefore, been one of The Doctor’s previous wives?

    Even wilder bonkers theory – Clara’s her and the Doctor’s daughter!!! (Well, as pointed out above, we are a wife missing in the “canon”!)

    Missy’s motivation is what the subtext of the Master’s motivation has always been – to impress the Doctor. By giving him a birthday present. Probably. Again kudos to all those who were picking up a Faustian theme in earlier episodes with Gretchen etc. Missy’s Temptation of the Doctor seemed to reflect that as well.

    The Doctor at the end knows he has been well and truly played by Missy. All the way through. Then that last scene between the Doctor and Clara, hiding their faces in a hug… ooooh, sorry, I’m off again!! 😥

    #35082
    coly @coly

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan yeah i suppose you’re right, I just thought we’d find out that someone, or something, was following the Doctor. The chalk falling on the floor, someone writing “Listen” on the blackboard, whoever was outside Orsons space ship/time machine at the end of the universe. I just thought it was going to be pointing toward something in the finale. Maybe you’re right… or maybe it will be cleared up in the Christmas episode. Maybe 😉

    #35083
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    I still think you’re making the mistake of seeing Danny thro Clara’s lies.

    No, I think it’s that I just don’t like him. I understood where he was coming from emotionally in those Cybermen scenes tonight – but to me, there was an awful lot of ‘revenge’ (towards both Clara and the Doctor) going on. As @danmartinuk said – passive-aggressive.

    Good writing. Danny is a heroic, brave, but definitely not saintly guy. Go back to Deep Breath; what do both the Doctor and Clara recognise about each other?

    That they’re needy game players. So if Danny’s been, throughout, a mirror for the Doctor – what will he be?

    But if we’ve seen the last of him – where indeed has Orson come from? Him and his ‘family heirloom’?

    #35085

    @coly

    I wouldn’t hold your breath!

    @all

    Consider Moffat’s journey from “Everybody lives” to “Osgood doesn’t”.

    #35086
    cmbwhovian @cmbwhovian

    Overall, I think this was a solid episode but I found myself feeling very underwhelmed. My expectations for this episode were really high but it fell a little flat for me. You know how Clara was upset at Danny’s death because it was so ordinary and boring? That’s sort of how I felt about Clara’s ending. I felt like she deserved more. It was so quick and it’s hard for me to buy that she would just want to stop traveling with the doctor. That aside, I thought their goodbye could’ve have been more emotional. Doctor Who finales usually make me and cry and I love Clara and Twelve together so this should have made me really sad.. but it didn’t. I was watching that scene more annoyed at how it was ending. I wish they had maybe shown us why they were motivated to lie to each other. I just don’t get it. However, I’m getting the sense that Clara will be back for Christmas so hopefully it’ll all get tied up and she can get a proper ending. If that was it, well, then I’ll be utterly disappointed.

    Also, did we ever find out exactly WHY Missy chose Clara and WHY she needed Clara to control the Doctor? I don’t think that was every really explained. And also, was the whole point of giving the Doctor the cyber-army to see if he’d crack and go dark? I don’t know, I think this whole plot had SO much potential and I had ready so many crazy theories about what would happen in this episode that what actually DID happen was not as exciting. However, I’m glad they kept this finale simple and not crazy like season 5’s pandorica box one haha.

    Crossing my fingers that Clara will be in the Christmas episode and that she’ll either stay with the doctor, or at least get a goodbye that is not based on lies.

    #35087
    coly @coly

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Time will tell. As in comedy, the fun is in having your expectations confounded.

    #35088
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    Well that was a bit rough.  Not in the story department, but a lot of heartbreak and heartache.  Been reading through the comments and really love seeing what everyone else is thinking.

    Osgood dying not too long after the Doctor basically told her she could take a trip with him – ouch.  I have to watch again, but I think Missy heard that.  I also think that is why she killed Osgood.  Vindictive, jealous, and nasty.  She probably had in her mind that the Doctor fancied her in some way.

    Danny.  I really liked his character and I also like ultimately what he did to the Doctor in confronting him.  The Doctor is really a soldier after all, but he can feel every bit of pain he has caused.  Wow.  Danny saving the boy he killed was an incredible act of selflessness.  His parents would have grieved him long ago, so Danny could have easily put himself first.  He had a future with Clara – yet he sacrificed and restored a life he had cut short.  That was a beautiful bit and a wonderful act by a character that I’d love to see them find a way to bring back.  Though I must say, I’m not sure Clara deserves Danny.  Sounds harsh, but Danny is too good for her in many ways.

    The Brigadier.  I was shocked when Kate fell to her death, yet it was wonderful to give the Brigadier a final hurrah and allow the Doctor a chance to salute him.  The admiration for him was there and Capaldi showed it wonderfully.

    Whither Orson Pink?  Clara could still be pregnant.

    I agree with those that brought up how many mythical characters and stories we have had this year, even including a “good” Dalek.  Enter Santa Claus knocking on the TARDIS’ door.  There’s more to resolve going forward.  Loved how they interrupted the credits.

    Methinks Missy had a teleport ready.  However it was great for the Brigadier to step up and prevent the Doctor from directly getting blood on his hands.

    Glad the Doctor noticed Danny didn’t respond to Missy.  I did too.  Really loved how he worked that out and let Danny save the day.

    Need to watch this one again.  I think this elevated the series as a whole.  I really need to roll back and re-watch the entire series.

    #35089
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @McPhisto96

    I think Missy heard that.

    She did.

    Frankly, when the Doctor said that I heard Rory’s ‘As soon as I see the Doctor getting pally with someone, I feel as if I should inform their next of kin’. Add it to Missy’s glance and I was going ‘Noooo! They’re going to kill Osgood!’

    Kate was another shock. Thankfully, there was the Brig.

    Orson’s very much a loose end, isn’t he? And did you notice that the slip of paper in the mortuary had ‘Known As Danny Pink’ on it?

    #35090
    herisson @herisson

    I really liked the episode, though honestly, the ending (Clara/Danny plus boy) surely was either a dream she had, or else taking place in an alternate reality, because

    – if the Nethershphere is a Gallifreyan HD, where is Danny now and how could he possibly be able to return?

    – Who would send a child who has been dead for some years back to this world, not even knowing if that child’s parents are alive? Or how they, if around, are possibly going to be able to handle having their child restored to them *and* at the exact same age he was when he died? The French show Les Revenants (The Returned) deals with this exact scenario – and similar ones – and it’s a hell of a horrible shock for all those still alive here, having been grieving and learning to keep on living as they all have been doing. If that wasn’t simply due to SM leaving loose ends and/or not thinking things through, then it’s pretty disturbing, frankly (or fairy tale-like, take your pick).

    I don’t expect Doctor Who to be terribly logical, but that ranks up there with the entirety of Kill the Moon as far as implausibility is concerned. This is all the more so given the realism of Jenna Coleman’s acting in both parts of the finale (she is very, very believable to me in this, more than in any of her other performances).

    As for call-backs to Listen, my hunch is that the scene where the plane is going down is the same bit of green screen filming used for Capaldi in the capsule, just shown from different angles. My one and only post here previously was in. re. that ep., thinking that the “thing” the Doctor saw at that moment was Missy. Well, maybe not, but it’s kind of nice to see a visual reminder of the Doctor in that scene – almost like a reflection in a reflection.

    @coly, i doubt SM will ever spell things out re. Listen. But the notion of spying and surveillance has been laid throughout this season’s episodes, though it doesn’t start becoming clear until the final scene of In the Forest of the Night.

    Loved Michelle Gomez!

    #35091
    herisson @herisson

    @bluesqueakpip: yes, that slip of paper was… interesting.

    Personally, i liked Danny, and I somehow can’t imagine that Moffatt is going to have two consecutive companions leave on such a sad note, if only because the Doctor will likely be even more devastated than he was in the Christmas special where Clara was introduced. Or… maybe not (given that he’s newly regenerated), but that plus Osgood feels like it’s either piling on fans or else there’s some misdirection and sly editing involved.

    Then again, I have a far easier time believing in that than i do in moon = space dragon egg, so who knows?

     

    #35092
    Timeloop @timeloop

    I liked this episode and I liked all the characters throughout this season. Especially Missy, the computer AI (pardon me, I forgot the actors name;his performance made me chuckle), Clara and PC.

    This episode has had some nice moments -I wasn’t fooled for a second that Clara was supposed to be the Doctor (I suppose this scene was created to show how deeply the the Doctor trusts her and opens up to her). I never thought of Danny as a ‘manipulative bully’. No idea where you get that from. If anything look at the poor Danny – how much of his life has been changed because Clara could not focus. She messed with his past and his future, changed it so deeply. HE would have been better off without her. As in probably not dead -reawoken Cyberman. The countdown of the Master has been sooooooo creepy. And exactly the same thing the wheeping angles did at the crush of the byzantium – not nearly as creepy back then.

    The most heartbreaking moments of this episode (for me personally) have been the goodbye of Clara and the Doctor and the Doctor who could not find Galifrey. I didn’t even watch the credits so I haven’t seen the trailer (yet). As of now it is just so sad that both of them are lying to make the other one happy. The Doctor dosen’t wan’t Clara to worry about him and vice versa – soooo sad. I’m glad Moffat didn’t have to conjure up other dimensions or distortions in time and space to make it sound reasonable. If this had been indeed the Goodbye of Clara as the main companion I could live with that.
    And then the sheer DESPAIR of the Doctor of being utterly alone in the universe- knowing that Clara won’t be running with him anymore since he presumes she’s got Danny. I can’t help myself but to feel sorry for that poor old man. Missy knew he’d cling onto that information with as much hope as he dared. Such a letdown for him….Gah! Thinking about the amount of his despair intensifies the pity.

    Since I was now able to see the whole story arc play out like it was supposed to I can honestly say: I like the Doctor, I didn’t especially like the story arc. Too misleading, too little hints. I hope that I am not alone with this opinion and the next season plays a little more along with the audience.

    Seeing 11 still reminds me of what has been lost in this incarnation of the Doctor and dearly missing it. Don’t get me wrong I like PC and I grasp the concepts and everything – still, I just miss it everytime I get to see 11.

     

    #35093
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @bluesqueakpip I think the “known as Danny Pink” is a note since we know he real name is Rupert.

    How much did Listen contribute to setting this up?  Clara by planting the idea of Dan the Soldier Man and the Doctor giving him a big dream about that when he scrambled young Rupert’s memory.  Clara and the Doctor unwittingly encouraged the vision that would make Danny the soldier and the one guy that could save the world.

    #35094
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @herisson I don’t really look at Amy’s departure as a sad note.  It was sad for the Doctor, yet Amy and Rory lived a wonderful life together.  They adopted a child, grew old together, and remembered their adventures.  Clara’s departure is not known yet.  Clearly Santa is not going to leave it at that.

    @timeloop 12 doesn’t seem to have the empathy of 11, at least not publicly.  Yet he told Danny in this episode that he can feel what he has done.  I think 12 is gruff and rough around the edges in an attempt to protect others.  We see if in the hug and his explanation as to why he doesn’t like hugs – because they other person is hiding their face from you.  He knows people can be at their most honest then and he wishes to avoid himself and them having to address reality.  I love Matt Smith’s Doctor.  He is my Doctor, yet I don’t miss many of his aspects because they don’t work here.  I don’t think they are truly missing in 12, but buried.  He had around 700 years fighting on Trenzalore.  Lots of time to think.  Lots of lives saved.  Many people he saw die – some in the fight.  I can imagine that Matt Smith’s Doctor felt much pain over it all – even including the demise of Handles.  He got a bit broken up over that.  I think 12’s view is that he felt too much as 11.  He knows who he is.  He knows what he must do.  He knows what he must bear, but he will do it privately and without complaint.  Very British.

    #35095
    herisson @herisson

    @macphisto96: about Danny’s life being messed with – not sure i agree. Most of the interaction is positive, especially helping Rupert/Danny to learn how to handle fear (rational or otherwise). He already had the toy soldier, after all.

    The Doctor is sometimes shown as if he was a god, but i can’t imagine that even his powers of post-hypnotic suggestion are *that* strong.

     

    #35097
    phMD @phmd

    Just me or is that “Heaven” human reasource guy with danny putting on his best David Tennant impression?

    #35098
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @herisson I think the Doctor emphasized the right point.  We all have different dreams for our futures as we grow – and they can shift from week to week.  The Doctor may have helped this one stick a bit.  I’m not saying he was overly manipulative or that Danny would have turned out radically different, but it is conceivable that without the emphasis provided by that “big dream about Dan the Soldier Man” that the Doctor gave him, he may have moved on to another dream and had a slightly different attitude.  He was certainly not planting that intentionally, but the Doctor seems to instinctually do what is needed to save the day – even when it is giving a little boy a dream.

    #35099
    lisa @lisa

    Well that was an amazingly strong story for me!! I want the Doctor to be my president- lets get him
    on the ballot !

    So a few thoughts – not too many as this definitely needs to be seen over but
    Missy- she really does love the Doctor in her psychotically insane way – still really need to know
    how he/she escaped from Galifrey ? Did the other Timelords have something to do with that possibly
    striking some bargain ? At the end maybe those co-ordinate numbers do mean something but what
    I have a hunch she wanted to team up with the Doctor for Galifrey
    So more of the lying liars – not much surprise about that
    The Cyberman touching his face in the mortuary and Danny/Cyberman cool and creepy -eewww !
    Also a rogue Cybermen like the rogue Dalek and rogue [maybe] Master/Missy ?
    I felt bad about Osgood -[DocTOms scarf and then DocMatts bowtie] but really good about Kate
    There was lots of wow in this and also plenty of possibility for bonkerizing too 🙂

    #35101
    LordLord @lordlord

    Danny’s dead, but it doesn’t matter (I loved him, but it doesn’t affect the show’s time-line/circle/wimeyness).

    If Orson Pink (Danny and Clara’s descendent) ceased to exist, that wouldn’t really affect the Doctor’s timeline, or the whole of time itself.

     

    If he Doctor wouldn’t of met with Orson after meeting with young Danny Pink (in Listen), all that would’ve happened is that he would of never have went to the end of the universe.

    And the human-race in the future would find a different candidate for their Time-Travel test
    (and totally kill them by sendingthem to the 2nd Big Bang).

    Danny will be dead forever, and I have a feeling they writers won’t bring him back. Any thoughts?

    #35103
    phMD @phmd

    I was underwhelmed by the lack of “fun” not only in the finale, but across the entire season. There seems to be a big lack of whimsy not just in 12 (seems a product of the writing) but throughout the plot. Even the color pallet seems dreary, dark, and cold. I know they want to grow the show up a bit, but it hurts the spirit of what made nuwho so popular, imo.

     

    I rarely find myself laughing or even smiling while watching the episodes; that is a huge loss  as this was one of the most compelling aspects of the show, and it made the serious moments even more impactful. It’s harder to see the darklines if you only color in greys.

    #35104
    lisa @lisa

    Btw – What has happened to that Galifreyan matrix orb hovering in the mausoleum ?
    Cyberman Danny will be back – he is now the leader of a vast army and will probably be called
    upon in a future season
    I really do realize that the whole Presidential thing is very ridiculous to most Who fans but
    I thought the president of Earth/chief executive is well– ok for not being a native born that has
    a major aversion to wars

    #35105
    Peargrins @peargrins

    @phmd   Beautifully put, and my sentiments exactly!  Watching Who used to be like taking a joyful ride through a whimsical and brilliant landscape.  It touched my heart, tickled my funny bone, challenged me to keep up, even could bring a tear to my eye, all in the space of  an hour.  This season in contrast has been a lesson in bleak dread.  I’ve watched hoping I could find something  to enjoy, and have failed.  The finale was just horrid.  Killing Osgood is symbolic of the change…take something good and sweet and amusing and kill it suddenly and without good reason.  Moffat, what on earth are you doing?

    #35107
    Belshazzar @belshazzar

    Hi all, new here and new-ish to Who (a little Tennant, more Smith, and then Capaldi who I think is fantastic) and been lurking since about the beginning of this season. Been meaning to post and I hope I can contribute to the discussion on your wonderful forum here!

    Found a good moment to comment too, as Coly, Herisson, cmbwhovian, macphisto and Timeloop have just laid out of lot of ideas I agree with (although from what little I’ve seen, 12 is definitely my Doctor). Full disclosure: I’m a Yank and haven’t seen him in previous roles (though I liked the cursing-is-ingrained gag last episode), but I was just so impressed by Capaldi this season. I’ve also really enjoyed watching Jenna Coleman, and I agree with others that she’s a good actress, but often thwarted by the directions her character is forced to take. I thought last week’s episode was fantastic, and I was a bit let down by this one, but particularly by the “resolution” of the Clara/Danny thread, if you can call it that.

    I get that in some ways, Clara has already fulfilled her purpose. She helped the Doctor find a way to save Gallifrey, and potentially helped him find out where it is (unclear re: ending). But why? I need to watch the episode again, I realize, but I don’t quite understand what indispensable role Clara played in drawing the Doctor to Missy. Did she really need to create this elaborate theater with Danny the soldier and Clara’s devotion/betrayal? Maybe that proved the easiest way to lure him into her trap, but why? It’s implied that Clara is chosen for an exceptional reason. But that riddle of “the Impossible Girl” is still not resolved, nor is that of Orson Pink.

    And on the subject of Pinks, I don’t understand all the negative reaction to Danny Pink, particularly the assertion that he is controlling. Danny performs (or tries to) the same function for Clara that she provides for the Doctor: he is another voice, another conscience, and one that can be trusted ( the much-maligned Kill The Moon was about trust: Clara having to trust herself if the Doctor was to trust her–and he did), even if his advice is not necessarily taken. Danny is the only other confidante Clara has besides the Doctor, and 12 is not a particularly satisfying person to confide in. Danny was never fooled by Clara’s lies, and quickly realizes what she’s up to. He offers advice but is nonjudgmental, even in The Caretaker where he was trying to discern the truth. He also got the worst end of the bargain in almost every aspect of being a semi-companion. Rory may have died a lot, but he got to travel with Amy and the Doctor and partake in their adventures. Danny, on the other hand, only barely got inside the TARDIS, dealt with a flaky and dissembling Clara who canceled on dates and didn’t invite him on adventures, and he maybe only ever got 3 honest words from her. Meanwhile, he got caught up in the machinations between her, the Doctor, and Missy, and ended up paying with his life for that pleasure.

    I think both Danny Pink and Samuel Anderson are good dudes, and deserve a bit better than that. His returning the boy he killed was a touching gesture, and I can’t really argue with the morality, but I was still a bit disappointed. I guess in the end, Danny still “saved the world” before he “died” which isn’t a bad legacy, but I just felt his character deserved a little more time in the sun, in a role that was full of darkness and bad luck. And Clara and the Doctor–that resolution was totally unsatisfactory. Of course, as Clara says in the previous episode, nobody “deserves” anything, but as she says, she is owed. And I agree. And I think Danny is owed a bit more too. Again, the Orson Pink riddle is still open to conjecture, and I don’t suspect it will go unresolved. But I just hope it isn’t done too hastily just because Jenna Coleman had some other role to get to or something.

    I understand that not everyone is a fan of Coleman and Anderson, either as a couple or on their own merits, and that’s fine. But I hope and suspect that we haven’t quite seen the end of them, even if they’re on their way out. Much this season has been precipitated by lies, even of the most benign sort (Clara grabbing the young Doctor’s ankle!). Apparently Missy didn’t give the Doctor the right coordinates either, or Gallifrey was not what he expected. Sometimes there are important things to be learned by the distortion of truth, but this episode did not seem to demonstrate that. Or at least the lessons are unclear.

    I suppose we’ll see, and either way I’ve enjoyed this season tremendously. Even if we lose Samuel Anderson and Jenna Coleman, I must say that Michelle Gomez is fantastic! You all have such wonderful actors across the pond! And as you know, we keep trying to poach them. Hell, we only just stopped paying Charlie Sheen money to appear on TV. It’s sad here. Anyway, love the forum, and keep up the brilliant bonkers! Can’t wait to read more ideas.

    #35108
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    Okay so, so many things to process in this episode. For me the moment that gave me all kinds of feels was when Clara was talking to cyber Danny before she knew who he was and in that speech about the Doctor she says he is “the one man I will never ever lie to”. First of all, super super hurtful to Danny because that lying has been the biggest problem in their relationship. The first time I watched at the end where her and the Doctor are saying goodbye I thought, well there’s another thing she lied about. But on re- watching that scene she doesn’t really lie to him, he assumes he knows what she is going to say and she just doesn’t correct him. He is the one who outright lies to her.  But she starts out by saying “There’s something I have to tell you and it’s not good news”. First I thought she was going to tell him she’s dying, but now I think she was going to tell him she’s pregnant with Danny’s baby and that’s why she won’t be traveling with him any more. And that’s how we still get Orson.

    Also super sad about Osgood. Just when I was thinking ‘ there’s the next companion ‘.

    And I found it almost surreal that during the lead in to the Christmas special the voice through the door was saying just what I and probably many viewers were thinking. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Clara yet. Or Missy….

    #35109
    Hudsey @hudsey

    So if Danny was able to come back from the afterlife to save the Afghan child, surely the matrix data slice was still working? If so, isn’t his consciousness still there, along with everyone else including Missy and Osgood? Also, wasn’t it mentioned in the 50th Osgood had a sister too? I can still see Osgood popping up somewhere, and Danny too – in order to give Clara her happy Xmas send off (and to go onto create Orson Pink!).. I think we won’t see Missy for some time though – but that it will be on Gallifrey!

    #35110
    LordAllons-y @lordallons-y

    This episode was quite good…even though I want to hate it. My girlfriend and I clung to our sonic screwdrivers and eachother’s free hand hoping that Danny would some how come back or that Clara would at least join him like Amy joined Rory. We just wanted some closure.

    As for Clara and the Doctor’s goodbye: I don’t see how it can be said that this was somehow out of character for one or the other. They’ve spent nearly this entire season lying to each other. At the beginning of Dark Water Clara deceives the Doctor and then the Doctor deceives her, forcing her to go through something she wouldn’t have ever done had her heart not been broken. Clara wasn’t just a companion like other companions, she was the Doctor’s best friend. They cared enough for each other to lie one last lie for the other party’s benefit.

    Now on to the conundrums: Orson Pink would be a good reason for Moffat to bring some closure to the tragedy that this episode embodied. If anyone could bring Danny Pink back from the dead…it’s Santa. I don’t think the Master/Mistress is dead. I mean…he/she could be. But I would be truly surprised by a permanent death after all of the other seemingly permanent deaths.

    In closing: This episode was truly one of the best in the series. But I’m frustrated that it took all of this happening for the Doctor to learn who he is now. I can’t help but feel that things would have happened differently if Allons-Y or Geronimo were involved. Allons-Y would have likely figured out  a way to completely abuse his power but still save Danny, Clara, Kate, and the rest of the Universes. Geronimo may have even gotten the same results as 12/13 but he would have done more to at least try to save Danny for Clara (I think).

    I hope the Christmas episode stitches up some of the wounds from this series but if it helps me forget the wounds that’s all well and good.

    UNLIKELY BUT HOPEFUL PREDICTION: Clara was calling Danny a the beginning of Dark Water to tell him she was pregnant. This ensure’s Orson Pink’s existence and at the same time gives Clara a little bit of Danny to hold on to until her time comes.

    #35111
    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    @pedant You know what, you’ve actually changed my opinion about Osgood’s death. I think my earlier reaction was just shock, since Moffat never actually kills off anyone, and when he does he usually just brings them back to life later, thus robbing their death of any meaning. At least in the classic series characters stayed dead.

    #35112
    coly @coly

    @lordlord surely Danny/Orson are the reason Clara went back in the Doctors time line and therefore the reason the Doctor is who he is.

    #35114
    Anonymous @

    This episode is a new kind of Moffat Loop. Not the usual Time Loop kind, but instead it’s an Emotion Loop. The same things I like most in the episode are the same things I don’t like?!? AND that’s what makes it so great! Moffat <shakes fist> 😆

    Emotion Loop

    Osgood is dead? Missy’s count down was awesome and scary how she zoomed across the room and grabbed Osgood. Then zap! Gone and she was just promised a ride in the Tardis. But it was exactly what should have happened. Missy heard and was jealous. Osgood dead sucks! But how it happened is Fantastic!!! 😀

    Missy is dead? Missy is Master, at first slightly disappointing to me. Then I see Missy AS Master and it is Aaaawesooome. Then zap! Gone and she was going to be the best Master since Delgado! Then Missy devastates the Doctor after she’s dead, which I think made it even worse for the Doctor because he couldn’t do anything at that point, but smash the Tardis consol. So Missy dead sucks, but it turned out Great. (And she is probably coming back, which makes it even better. 😀 ).

    Danny Pink is dead? He has been so confusing all season. Is he good, is he bad? Finally he is good, and a hero. Then zap! Gone but then he sends the boy back instead of himself which makes him even more heroic and gives him peace which will end his personal grief and is a good ending for him. So Great!

    That’s the Emotion Loop SM has invented or perfected now, to add to his array of Moffat Loops. Once again SM did something that my puny brain never even thought of, just as I expected, but that what I liked most.

    I only have one criticism, it is really splitting hairs, but I would have liked a little more dramatics when the Cybermen fly up and explode in the clouds (bigger explosions? Or fire work affect with sparks as each one exploded? Or dramatic music?). Idk what it was missing and I mean just a little more not much at all, would have given me goose bumps, so it is really not a complaint. There’s a chance more dramatics could make it seem cheesy over time, so it’s probably better just the way it is.

    Kudos to @lisa for flying Cybermen. 😉

    No CyberDino. 😥

    But there is always Christmas! I predict Santa is bringing One Giant Dinosaur.  

    @phaseshift – When Danny appears in Clara’s hallway, for a moment I thought he was going to start bouncing off the walls, like in the AHA video! 😆

    That would have been awful, but instead it was wonderful. Hero Danny.

    @timeloop – Your post sparked my thoughts, but I’m not trying to change your opinions just adding my opinions to them.

    I thought there were more story arc clues through S8 than ever before. Many people figured out Missy was WitS (but it wasn’t certain until DiH), so I don’t think more arc clues are needed. It’s true most of the arc clues were misleading and vague but that is exactly what I think they should be. That way we can bonkerize all we want and will never get spoiled.

    Re 11: He will always be my favorite Doctor too, but I am shocked at how easy the transition to Capaldi has been for me. Other than the phone call in DB, I haven’t given it another thought. I never would have predicted that was even possible. Capaldi had to be perfect for that to happen. I think the story arcs have been darker (more serious and heavy) this season, so now I am missing the lighter feeling stories during 11’s run. I’m guessing 12’s stories will get lighter as he works through some of his problems.

    #35115
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    I’m with you @scaryb – Gallifrey is out there, just not where Missy said, and, as you say, the Doctor has returned there in the TARDIS with Clara without knowing.

    I’m also sold on Clara as Missy and the Doctor’s daughter 🙂

    Certainly I’m still wondering whether Clara is the Doctor’s progeny – he loves her the way one loves one’s child – unconditionally.

    @peargrins Osgood’s death was absolutely awful no doubt – I felt sick watching it – really, really frightening and chilling. Missy/ the Master is a deeply dark person and we shouldn’t forget it. It did really upset me.

    And I do miss Smith’s easy comedic turn and his slapstick physical comedy – it was one of the lovely aspects of his Doctor. But Capaldi’s sombre Doctor, with his gruffness and his soft centre is equally beguiling, just in a different way.

     

     

     

     

    #35116
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    @cmbwhovian I think Missy brought the Doctor and Clara together just so she could have some influence over him, to feel like she’s in control. With her history with the Doctor she would have known what qualities would appeal to him in a companion. And maybe what qualities this companion would bring out in him. And since she wasn’t ready to reveal herself to him yet, she wanted to have some control, to feel connected to him through Clara.

    #35117
    Rob @rob

    Morning All

    Well that was fantastic 😀

    The Brig got his salute and Danny became Field Marshal of the Dead, two Cybermen with feelings, this opens up a who(le) new can of Cyberw(who)opeass, pity he didn’t shoot five rounds rapid 😉

    Bow ties are cool but the Masteress doesn’t like chic obviously

    Missy Poppins in a graveyard of death, her magic a miracle to tempt the Doctor into becoming her, truly a scheme of the Master/Missy

    My bonkers-neuron which is firing five rounds rapid for the Christmas Special……. Are we going to have a thread for that?????? I will not post them till our Lords and Masters(Missys) say where they want such musings placed

    Upline someone was asking if the Master/Doctor thing had been explained……. Yes it was in the programme and several times over the years both BG and recently, maybe you’ve missed all those episodes 😉

    BG HF and PN (if you didn’t play games online back in the day Be Good Play Nice and Have Fun)

    #35118
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    Hello @herisson

    Your point in comment 35090 is a very good one, re Les Revenants and how the Afghani boy’s parents will react to having a son return from the dead many years later but at the same age as he died.  Many people everywhere (mostly not here, though) have complained how dark it was in Dark Water to posit that the dead can feel pain.  But a dead son returning to his family in that way?  That is much, much darker.

    Hello @macphisto96

    I think the “known as Danny Pink” is a note since we know he real name is Rupert.

    I also think you’re right, but @bluesqueakpip thinking it is a clue about Orson Pink is probably what Moffat intended.  As always, the ambiguity is quite fun.

    So, Missy nonchalantly zapped Seb after defining him as an AI interface.
    BONKERS THEORY No 1:  Osgood was also an AI interface.  Her getting zapped wasn’t her actual death.  I need to re-watch but she said something interesting in the beginning when we first met her in this ep.

    I take @pedant‘s point about “Consider Moffat’s journey from “Everybody lives” to “Osgood doesn’t”.” and that is a good point, but give me some hope we’ll see Osgood again!

    #35119
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb and @pedant

    Though I should probably apologise to you two, because you proved to be a lot closer to the truth about Danny than I was…

    #35120
    hallucigeniclipstick @hallucigeniclipstick

    Thwack in the chest with that one, especially Danny’s soldier’s promise being to keep the one he loved safe. Very Lions led by Donkey’s. Also reminded me of the end of His Dark Materials trilogy, the audience /reader realising at the same time as the protagonists that they would not be the ones benefiting from the passage between worlds. Am guessing Moffat might actually have read the Milton on which Pullman based his books.

     

    I’ve really enjoyed the series even more so as it’s the first one I’ve watched with my eldest who is now acting out imaginary episodes at breaktime. He even went so far as to tell someone off for not letting someone play with them because the real doctor wouldn’t do that because he thinks everyone is important.

     

     

    #35121
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    So.. there were loads of good things.

    – clara pretending to be the Doctor

    – UNIT showing up, especially Bowtie  she was great, I already loved her as the scarf

    – Danny getting the army

    – the way Clara hugged Cyberdanny even after she killed his emotions

    – Missy was brilliantly bananas, I do hope we’ll see some more of her, after all it wouldn’t be the first time she came back from the dead

    – finding out once and for all the Missy was the woman  in the shop

    – Danny saving the little boy

    – Missy traveling Mary Poppins style

    I could go on. It had some really good stuff, but… over all I just missed a certain ‘BAZAMM!’ to it. The pace was slow, the mood was dark (ok, that was a given, but still) I just kept waiting for things to finally go … bonkers!

    But of course it isn’t over yet, we still got christmas to come, and I am sooo excited!!!  I am a massiv fan of Nick Frost!!! Bring. It. On.

    s

    #35123
    Whisht @whisht

    A few new posters here and just wanted to say “Hi”.
    I shouldn’t pick people out (as I enjoyed all the posts!) but that’s a great first post @belshazzar !
    If any of the new people want to pop over to the Memories thread to introduce themselves, then its always welcome!

    In terms of Death in Heaven – I enjoyed it but I wonder if the slight underwhelming feeling some people had was because it actually played out logically from what was set up in the previous episode.
    There were no new plot twists or new bits of info. I enjoyed it, but it wasn’t “bonkers” as such.
    mind you I’ve only watched it once last night, so maybe i’m wrong!

    and poor old Osgood (with tie, scarf and trainers) {sniffle} :`(

    #35124
    whofangirl73 @whofangirl-73

    At the last episode i was thinking what has Mofffat done, have the master become a woman. But very very quickly i think she is fantastic. She is so evil and nasty, and probably a breath of fresh air for the show. Capaldi was fantastic- i did keep thinking he was going to go back in time right to the end
    and change all of the events so that danny was never killed
    ( of course remember Earhshock with Adric and that never happenwd. The ending in coffee shop I was surprised with both the doctor and clara lying to each other. In some ways it is an appropriate ending if this is their ending. Just some random thoughts…….

    #35125
    nick1235 @nick1235

    And in the ed, the Doctor gave salute to Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart.

    The most calming season finale I’ve ever watched, even though loads and lots of feeling and emotion being played. Can’t always get a good closure though, can’t win it all. Although wee-bit curious where the conversation would go if the Doctor gave Clara time to talk. Anyway, I’m 90% sold that this is might be a goodbye for Clara. Gonna miss her much I suppose. Oh well, Nick Frost for the Doctor’s new companion ( seems unlikely but ..) get in!!! :D:D:D

     

    #35126
    Taffy @taffy

    Hi all.

    First I would like to say hello as I am new here (will pop over to intro thread soon)

    i have aves just finished watching the episode and while I must admit I amd not a Moffat fan, I did really enjoy the episode.

    I love the return of the Brigadeer.  Unfortunately it was the same time as we had a freak increase of pollen here as my eyes started to water a bit.

    One disappointment that I did have was that Missy was once again insane.  I had thought they were moving back towards a more calculating and diabolical Master from classic series. But I agree that it appeared Missy was teleported not killed.

    I did like the part where Missy was telling the doctor she just wanted her friend back.  That struck a cord.  I also think that she was not lying about Gallefray, just that it was hidden or out of phase and that’s why it could not be seen.

    Anyway.  A good episode, and Peter is really starting to remind me of Hartnell or Pertwee.

    Cheer

    taffy

    #35127
    Taffy @taffy

    I would also quick like the bit where the Doctor brags to Missy about how her is ruler of the world.  Something Missy /Master had never been able to do.

     

    Taffy

    #35129
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @macphisto96 Yes, I know that. As I said I understand the reasons but I am still reminded of what’s missing when I see 11. That’s not to say I don’t like 12. They shouldn’t be compared. And to burden oneself without complaint is really not something only british people do.

    @barnable What kind of clues did we get (besides figuring out who Missy is – again well done to those who boldly uncovered it) that helped us figure something out? I don’t mean ‘Yeah, that makes sense in retrospect’, I mean ‘OMG, I can’t believe I’ve read the signs correctly’.
    Not all of this season has been dark. Think of Robin Hood or In the Forest of the Night.

    BTW, there should be a fairly easy way to find Galifrey. And it is not complicated at all and RIGHT THERE. Apparently all the TARDIS needs is a deep longing for a person or a place and then it will take you there since it knows all of time and space. Why isn’t the Doctor using this feature? Turn off the safeguards. Focus on a person of which he is certain he/she is on Gallifrey after popping them into that pocket universe. Like his mother, right? It was his mother, wasn’t it?
    It’s as obvious as getting Rory and Amy back through going back to the same year to a different closeby location and getting them manually. Or if not the same year choose one before or after that – Time is not the boss of the Doctor.

    #35130
    janetteB @janetteb

    Have just finished watching the episode so first impressions. It was a corker. I was so glued to the screen I forgot to hand out the jammy dodgers. It was a considerably more straightforward story than expected but it delivered a few quite shattering emotional punches; Osgood being deleted, Danny and Clara, Kate’s death and rescue, Danny sending back the boy and the Doctor’s despair at the end. (Peter Capaldi was wonderful and Jenna’s portrayal was also deeply moving.) And as for the ending, I was devestated, not quite believing that it was all over and then there was that voice, expressing just what I felt. What an ending. As I predicted on the Sofa, evil, evil MOffat is going to keep us in hideous suspense until Christmas.

    I am certain that Danny will be downloaded and become Orson and there is still the possibility that we will meet Ian. The Toy Soldier is yet to play its part. Maybe it will be the toy soldier that will lead the Doctor back to Gallifrey or enable Danny to be downloaded from the Matrix and thus saved. So many questions still to be addressed and for a terrible moment I thought they would be vanished into the ether but not so.

    Second thought, that Missy is teleported not dead. The youngest sofa viewer noted that she disappears in a blue puff of smoke, others vanish in red. I will have to rewatch tomorrow and see if he is correct. I guess there is no hope that Osgood will be resurrected if that is the case.

    Now to start reading through all the posts, almost as much fun as the episode itself. I am so going to miss this weekly treat. I have one complaint about this series, it has been way too short. I can’t believe that it is over already.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #35131

    So – Christmas episode coming up.

    Possibly pregnant Clara.

    There’s no way that could cause offence.

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