Dot and Bubble

[Charlie Cook @cookgroom]

@ubik But are these inmates of Finetime Space Babies grown up

yes, I wondered if there was a connection?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

The other thing I’m liking about this season is not every episode is about the end of civilisation/the known universe etc. The threat in this one wasn’t even to the Doctor, it’s about his intervention in someone else’s story. Sometimes he can save them, sometimes he can’t (especially when they’re a bunch of entitled, selfish proto-fascists!). That’s very traditional old school Who. Tho I presume there’s going to be an almighty crisis/big bang/massive FX budget 😉 in the finale, with a pantheon of gods – Toymaker, Maestro, The One Who Waits – lurking just beyond our peripheral vision.

[Dr. Pepper-Bean @dr-pepper-bean]

I don’t know why people are assuming it was because of race.  His skin color wasn’t the only thing that set him apart.

[bunface @bunface]

@scaryb

(Interesting that a number of comments in t’other place (tho there’s a lot of positive reaction too) say that they don’t have a problem with Ncuti being black but they don’t like the scripts/don’t think he’s playing it right/doesn’t feel like the Doctor for them etc etc – micro-aggressions in action).

I only read this forum as it’s relatively quiet and very well adjusted and I can’t cope with too much noise, so I don’t know exactly how people elsewhere are expressing themselves, but I have a niggle myself about Gatwa, which certainly isn’t to do with him but I think is somehow to do with his performance. Plus maybe the direction, writing of his character, and even his costuming?

I keep trying to put my finger on it, but essentially it comes down to my feeling that he’s too human and not alien enough, which is how I felt about Whittaker too. There’s too much in there of the now, maybe, whereas I suppose I’m looking for more timelessness?

There was a piece in The Guardian lately rating all the doctors, and the comment about Capaldi was that he was great but it felt sometimes that he was a great actor having the time of his life playing the Doctor. I loved Capaldi, but I understand what they meant, and I kind of feel a bit like that about Gatwa (yet). I see greatness, but then something in his delivery jumps me out of belief in him as the character. He has such a watchable charisma, I like him enormously, but maybe he gets too big for the moment sometimes.

It could be a case of my not identifying too, but I would insist that has to do with his easy, open, weepy humanity, not his physical body. Being autistic, my favourite Doctors have been Smith and Capaldi, both of whom were recognisably alien when it came to relating! So partly I’m struggling with how ‘normal’ Gatwa’s Doctor seems to be written.

I say ‘seems’ in the hope that there’s a lot of illusioning going on and he’s going to get a bit weirder!

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

On the suggestion voiced above that the horrid inhabitants of Finetime might be the Space Babies grown up, I would say no for two reasons: the Space Babies were racially diverse, and they were sympathetic to the suffering of the bogeyman, which this appalling lot would never be.

 

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

<span class=”useratname”>@blenkinsopthebrave Yup. Pains me to say this but the space babies were better than that. </span>

[Craig @craig Emperor]

I thought you might like this. I follow Prof Tim Wilson on YouTube. He mostly talks about politics. But here he breaks down the latest episode. (with a little bit of politics)

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

thinking more about this episode – and how I’m enjoying it – there is a unity/overlapping of themes over the series so far. I totally get where the ‘are they the space babies grown up’  ideas are coming from. The society that abandoned the babies because they can’t let them not be born but won’t take care of them is a different but equally awful thing to the deeply racist bubble culture. And these young influencer types are essentially babies suddenly left to fend for themselves – their parents/parent planet aren’t coming for them.

 

But the way they’re left at the mercy of an AI set to kill them is closer to the soldiers on Boom, who, in a similar way, have to be persuaded to look around them and see what is actually happening.

 

The Devil’s Cord shows us how bleak and dangerous is a world without the beautiful distraction of music (though much as I love Rickey, I’m not sure it’s that much less bleak with Itsy-bitsy etc). But TDC is almost an interesting counterweight.

Ruby is certainly seen in the pub in 73 yards as coming there out of her London bubble. (Although ‘can I pay on my phone isn’t an unreasonable question in a pub). And again a little counterweight in that for a lot of people their phone is their bubble, but it gives her access to her money, and a way to get home.

I think it elevates above a typical anti-social media fable because I think the bubble concept runs through this series in interesting ways.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

I think obviously there is satire on and critique of social media here, but I don’t think that’s all – these young people have had a world created for them, and have been encouraged to live in their bubble. But whereas the criticism of ‘young people today’ is so often that they prefer the on-line to the real world, choosing vacuous Tik-tokery over engagement with what’s going on around them (a criticism that is absolutely not borne out by the young people I know), these young people only have the social media world, and would have to have a very vigorous spirit of enquiry to look beyond it. That’s not to let them off the hook – Rickey is anomalous because he spends time every day outside the bubble, reading and learning, which would presumably have been an option for any of them.

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

Exactly. And I think it’s important to consider some of the things people have been doing with social media – engaging in political activity, taking public records of police brutality. It’s also a way to really communicate, organise, support. It can be used actively or passively.

In the 18th century, there was a kind of explosion of social media similar to what we encountered in the last few decades, as letter writing became more and more popular. To the point where people complained that at house parties people spent all their time writing letters about the party rather than engaging in it – sound familiar?

But even before that, through the early modern period, manuscript culture operated as a form of social media through which people shared their writing, commented, commentated on writings. There is a difference with digital media, but it’s very much a new iteration of a long standing human impulse. And use of social media is always split between entertainment/distraction and significant communication, learning, and activity.

It’s also worth noting that had the bubbles not been community based – had, for example, the people on that planet all lived shut up in their own homes only reading up on history – the Doctor would have had a much harder time trying to save them. Their social media is a big part of the problem, but it was also offering a solution. And the fault was more in the community itself, the ingrained racism and general ignorance and over dependence, than the bubble. Used as a way, for example, for her to communicate with her family as well as her friends – that’s actually useful.

[FozzyB @fozzyb]

1st time post so forgive me being stupid.

Am I missing something?  Yet another of this Dr does very little, its Ruby who talks her into moving her butt and its Ricky who navigates Lindy to safety. Then an ambiguous throwaway line that could be about race or outsiders.

To complete my annoyance, A ) What happens to them , B ) Who are the bugs and C ) why is isnt the Dr trying to save everyone else in the city?

I really like Ncuti but this series has been horrendous,  the stories have shown the Dr to be far too weak or non existent (Ep 4)

[bunface @bunface]

@fozzyb

I get you, I’m still finding this series uneven, but maybe our expectations are always sky high anyway? No series has been 100% brilliant, has it?

See above for a quote I posted from RTD, though, about wanting to move away from the Doctor as a superhero (which is what the Tennant years explored and the Smith ones continued). It feels like he’s more interested now/this time in exploring the Doctor as part of a bigger whole, in a continuation of the Chibnall/Whittaker emphasis on team/community. The world has moved on.

I suppose for those of us fascinated by the Doctor as an entity, or those of us desperately hoping there’s someone out there who’s going to magically save the world (for real), it’s a hard adjustment.

I guess the answer is to look for some other kind of way of saving the world, and (for me) to look beyond the one character to the bigger picture.

Important stuff!

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@fozzyb for me, the relative inactivity of the Doctor goes to confirm that the issue is race. He appears first, she won’t listen. Ruby does most of the communicating with her as you say. Even when she does begin to listen to him she says things like ‘he’s not as stupid as he looks’ and ‘he’s defiantly going to be disciplined’. About him, not Ruby. He and Ruby are clearly working together. Ruby is also an outsider.  Why is she more willing to listen to Ruby?

 

It’s not just about the one line. It’s the light that one line throws on so many earlier lines.

[bunface @bunface]

@fozzyb
@miapatrick

Yes, you’re right, and the race issue bound up with the Doctor as saviour is also made explicit in this episode because he actually offers to save them all/save the world, but as he’s not a white saviour he isn’t eligible.

All we can say is hooray that the dwindling group that only puts their faith in white saviours is doomed!

[FozzyB @fozzyb]

@bunface

@miapatrick

I get what you are saying bun, and to an extent I agree with it but for me it’s like Superman asking Lois to save Metropolis or Batman to ask Robin to be the hero. Not sure many people,  I might be wrong,  are tuning in to see Ruby be the main saviour as she has been in the Maestro ep and whatever ep 4 was meant to be.

Didn’t register them quotes Mia as having an undertone but now knowing the end , they do take on a whole new meaning

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@fozzyb o be fair, Blink is one of the most praised newer Doctor Who episodes, and it was even Doctor Lite-er :).

I feel they made this episode work with it, the last episode worked too, but there is a weirdness in pacing in having two Doctor lite episodes in a row in quite a short run. But I think a lot of that is logistics and doing what they can with it.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Watched this late… I was away. Curiously, the view from my hotel window reminded me of The Sunmakers.

Slightly amazed that no one has mentioned Barbie The Movie. Yet. Or am I being so uncool you will have to mute me?

More seriously, this might reference Azimov, not just Caves of Steel but other short stories that examine the trap of tech. Must have been a big deal in the fifties. I’d love to watch a sensible adaption of an Elijah Bailey/Robot story.

Otherwise, the bugs look like Tractators from Frontios. I assume ‘dot’ let them in from the Wild Wood. The Butlerian Jihad can’t happen soon enough for Finetime… is it a sentient crypto currency?

No opinion yet about Susan Twist. Unless she is Stukey Sue. The Susan Twist thing must be a bid to mess up the spoilers. Out meta the obscure and oblique. But she is now recognised by Doc and Ruby. Yeah, Stukey Sue.

The last 3 eps have been powerful. You don’t often get three body-blows like that in a row. I doubt if Finetime’s ijits are anything to do with the babies. The underwriting of Babies and Chord was so odd; I still think those are the stories that will Russ will return to in his accustomed over-the-top illogical showstopper.

Slightly amazed at the undercurrent of (generally neophyte) comment denying the racism… ? Seriously, his facial hair?? Have we a hidden agenda from perfect prefects from the perfect American right? None of those Proud Boy people. Urgh. Though I quite expect to see Lewis Clarke Shaman reappear later with a horned helm and face paint.

Who played Lindy? She was brilliant. Best bit of backstabbing since Dorium Blue Face and the headless monks.

 

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@ps1l0v3y0u  I actually saw a fun tongue-in-cheek theory on Twitter suggesting the Doctor got banished to the Barbie universe (presumably to eternal dance-offs with the other Kens) when he broke the faerie ring and released Mad Jack (I enjoyed Barbie incidentally, to be honest a lot more than Oppenheimer – biopics are almost always too portentous).

The Doctor actually speculates that the Dot AI “grew” the slugs/bugs, rather than letting them in from the Wild Woods. We see on-screen that the same bugs/slugs have already eaten everyone on Lindy’s homeworld, so they’re not native to the Wild Woods of Finetime’s planet.

Yes – Stooky Sue – a thread that keeps tugging at me. She had three Stooky babbies. And things do seem to be coming in threes – three old women following Ruby in time and space, three Stooky babbies…

Threes are often important in fairtales; Goldilocks and the Three Bears, the Three Billy Goats Gruff, Three Blind Mice.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

The power of three!

You have to tell a Celt something three times before it’s true. It’s TRUE!

I still think I would go for Oppenheimer, though I sadly admit I haven’t seen either. I am unique. And sad. But not really bothered. 3 hours is a bit much.

Did 15 say that? The ‘dot did dat dinni?’ 15 might be wrong. The Doctor can be wrong. Moon-Planet tho. Library of the Dead? Maybe the Tractators are super-sized Vashta Nerada??

Mrs Flood. River.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@juniperfish

The Power of Three.

Ashildr could have lost one child in the Black Death, then literally ripped decades from her memory. Could be grief.

But there were Three cradles. Powerful number. Not invoked at a whim (unless you’re CS Lewis).

Rassilon, Omega and The Other?

The Doctor, The Loon… and who?

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Omega – isn’t he still trapped in an alt Universe somewhere? Is he the One who waits?

I’d much prefer this to a Susan return tbh – I think the Susan Twist thing is a massive RTD joke.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

Rassilon, Omega and the Other is from the Cartmel Masterplan. Just giving canon examples of ‘triads’.

The problem is three is its own trope. It’s not one (creator) or two (sex); more elements invite redundancy. So there are many triads and there’s no reason why any should equate to another, apart from the act of story telling.

If Russ says Stukey Sue and Stukey Bill have three babbies, that’s significant. I would say Ashildr having triplets can’t be any kind of accident either. Three ijits in Zchib’s magnificent creation, The Fam? Yes that’s an accident. Or rather it got Zchib off the kiddie show Lady Doctor hook.

[Krathoon @krathoon]

Susan Twist may be playing “The One Who Waits”. It is like she is this God keeping an eye on them by showing up as different people.

[Krathoon @krathoon]

Susan Twist may be playing “The One Who Waits”. It is like she is this God keeping an eye on them by showing up as different people.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Understand about the power of three. It’s funny that the #3 is so ingrained in humans though. Father, Son and Holy Ghost etc. and way back further I’m sure.

I wonder why?

But Omega…that’d be kinda good if done well.

The trajectory in the quality of eps is going exponential I’d say…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

The Trinity seems to have been an attempt to keep both monotheists and neoplatonists on board. Otherwise it would be 2 if not 1. Add Mary (to butter up the egyptians) and you have 4… doesn’t sound good in Cantonese though.

2 brothers crop up a lot: Romulus and Remus, Hengist and Horsa, Hrothgar (Hamlet) and Helgi. It’s an indo european destiny trope. Man does incredibly significant thing while bro turns up his toes.

One is one and all alone.

Three would seem to be a Celtic thing… all over the Mabinogion. Arthur’s family in Geoffrey seem to be a deconstructed triad: 3 kings; holy, warrior, lover.

Mind you… 3 little pigs…

[Brewski @brewski]

Did anything significant happen on a Sunday in September?

Ruby Sunday and Ricky September have the same initials.

And those aren’t their original surnames.

Ruby Coombes??

Hmmmm…..

[janetteB @janetteb]

@brewski Hi. RTD is running with the calendar names isn’t he? Tuesday in Boom. I wonder if that signifies anything or is just because he really doesn’t like picking names for characters.

1963 is also featured so a Sunday in September 1963 maybe? The first episode began on a schoolday but I don’t think it is ever stated which day of the week it was. Umm. That might just be me with the Susan/bee in my bonnet again.

Cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

The Trinity seems to have been an attempt to keep both monotheists and neoplatonists on board. Otherwise it would be 2 if not 1. Add Mary (to butter up the egyptians) and you have 4… doesn’t sound good in Cantonese though.

2 brothers crop up a lot: Romulus and Remus, Hengist and Horsa, Hrothgar (Hamlet) and Helgi. It’s an indo european destiny trope. Man does incredibly significant thing while bro turns up his toes.

One is one and all alone.

Three would seem to be a Celtic thing… all over the Mabinogion. Arthur’s family in Geoffrey seem to be a deconstructed triad: 3 kings; holy, warrior, lover.

Mind you… 3 little pigs…

3 is the magic number too…

[syzygy @thane16]

@cathannabel

Good to hear from you!

Absolutely agree with the idea that many young ones aren’t as attached to social media as many others assume.

Just from our perspective only, The Son and many of his mates have virtually no socials with most working 2 jobs & at university/college. There is less time, less disposable income and as @janetteb might attest to, rent & food in Aus is cripplingly expensive.

Certainly the racial component also described by RTD as the most significant issue in the episode & the “step away before you’re contaminated (by the chap putting himself forward as leader)” was the most cold and despairing statement in any episode this season

@ps1I0v3y0u Yes! The undercurrent denying racism is evident. But then those squawking about how the series is horrendous are doing the typical thing…. No discussions as to why or how…  🙂

@janetteb @brewski yes, the initials…the names…..WHO is Ruby? I remember Season 6 & 7 with Matt Smith & Dorian’s “question hiding in plain….the question to end all questions…” etc. Doctor WHO?

nice to have these asked about the companion: we had this with Donna as the most “important” person in the RTD-verse.

@juniperfish I also had problems with Oppenheimer as did The Son. We both found Barbie to be watchable.  The fairytale motifs with 3 stooky babbies & the significance of both 3 & myths/fables is intriguing & with perplexing ambiguity!

interesting how archetypes & universal principles or forces impel & permeate the psyche across time/culture. This is one of the beats across this season whether Gremlins at Christmas; creatures at the end of the universe or the Giggle. The immortals (seen in TDC) described by Aristotle as “indwelling forms” or in Wittgenstein as “linguistic family resemblances linking disparate but overlapping particulars” are part of archetypal traditions described in many ways, with creative & diverse contexts.

Puro.

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave interesting comments about HG Wells Time Machine: as a child, it was fascinating.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

sorry I’m a bit late to the party so to speak😉. An interesting commentary on modern day social media  is probably the best way I can sum up this episode, with a shocking conclusion at the end which gave a whole nother meaning to the episode when looked in retrospect. I was almost left feeling forgiving to the Dot AI’s decision to eliminate its creators, a self entitled/centred  bigoted and  speciest (if that’s the right word) society. Is RTD making this a theme for the series of highlighting the ways a society can slip into what can be considered as morally ambiguous and even wrong thinking, First we had a society that had abandoned its minors who were essentially refugees who were left to save themselves. Then we had the semi religious/corporate culture that basically made war an industry. Think my thinking has become fried trying to see where this season is heading.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Interesting… the story was originally offered to Moff by RTD for series 6 but the necessary effects were deemed too expensive.

And Stefan Mohamed thinks that Russ shouldn’t write about racism! Because that ’practically perfect in every way’ episode Rosa rightly depended on granddad on the bus, and not righteous anger at the lynching of Emmett Till. So all is well with the world. Mind you the cunning deployment of Bradley could have been Zchib’s decision.

In that Ruby recognised Susan Twist but not from the Villengard ambulance, does that mean she DOES remember bits of 73 Yards? Tho that could be from Chord.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Not much to add to all that’s been written above except that I thought it was another cracker and at the very least should be applauded for having a bit more confidence and righteous anger that I don’t think Chibs managed to muster. I was at first a bit dubious about the ep, feeling it was a bit Black Mirror-lite and going for rather easy targets but once I realised where RTD was really going with it that it really became another piece of really quite ground-breaking Who…

[janetteB @janetteb]

Well finally got to watch the episode and I have to say I don’t think in all the time I have been watching Dr Who have I ever wanted to see a major character get fed to the bugs more. I just spent a good part of the episode wishing I could push Lindy into one of them. I just hope that there are a whole batch of bugs waiting on that river. They would only spoil that wilderness if they got out there. They did not deserve the Doctor’s compassion and hurting him like that made me hate them all the more.

Cheers

Janette

 

 

[Brewski @brewski]

@janetteb

That might just be me with the Susan/bee in my bonnet again.

I also think we’ll be seeing something of Susan in this season.

But not Mrs. Flood.  I think she’s a ruby red herring.  Oh!  But how about this?  Who is Meep’s “boss”.  The (Susan) foreman???

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

It is interesting to have such an unsympathetic protagonist. Lindy was wonderfully horrible. This is new territory isn’t it? The closest previous example might be Love and Monsters, the hero of which was not unsympathetic exactly but conflicted and castigated for his peculiar choice of heavyside lover.

I liked it. Stefan Mohamed (Den of Geek) has problems Russ’s apparent joy at dismissing ungrounded narcissistic snowflakism as racist. He didn’t say that precisely. He liked the dynamic but begged the question ‘how do you represent or dramatise racism?’ His view is a non-white writer might do it better.

He has a point because I’m not sure that’s been done in Who. Russ is obviously more interested in social media, wealth, privilege, leisure flatulence, the  ridiculousness mystery of crypto wealth creation … and the dangers of AI. The less intelligent will always be threatened by the intellectually superior. What are you (still) there for? What is Finetime for? Can an AI program really make judgments about taste? I seem to remember Daleks and Cybermen having a spat about that…

So I have to assume Dot destroys the ‘flakes, not because they were all tasteless idiots but inefficient Perhaps it was given a better offer. By Stukey Sue??

The racism really is a bit irrelevant in this respect; it’s the social commentary and the sci-fi trope that Russ is keen to push. AI has cropped up twice now. He’s serious and rightly so. He writes good sci-fi.

Social media and its colonisation of the arts is not necessarily racist. The relationship with privilege can be disturbing. But there is also much san culottes action happening without anyone’s permission and gobbled up with relish.

But Russ’ racist commentary is there. Yes, the words voodoo and contamination spill from the mouths of surviving ‘flakes.

Perhaps Russ is saying, ‘racism is stupid and so is unreasoning loyalty to bankrupt authority.’ Bankrupt as in the MAGA or Brexit or any populist or religious nonsense you care to shake a stick at? Or  would those targets point to The Swamp or Yoorp or The Chaotic West?

Are either side of this divide necessarily racist? Well the thing does exist and it may fess up if it chooses but not necessarily. Nonetheless, I think I know what that Venn diagram looks like. Bob Marley would ask if it looks and sounds like a chicken. I’m not sure a bunch of dumb ‘flakes being rude does. They were all very white. And they were once privileged. Perhaps they survive the Wild Wood to invent The Lost Cause of Finetime?

[Dr. Pepper-Bean @dr-pepper-bean]

@bunface

All we can say is hooray that the dwindling group that only puts their faith in white saviours is doomed!

I think you misunderstand what a “white saviour” is.  It’s not a saviour who happens to be white.  It’s someone with an arrogant saviour complex, who thinks he or she is entitled to intrude in on a society and offer unsolicited help to people because they’re too stupid to help/save themselves.

In this sense, the Doctor fits the “white saviour” mold perfectly, or at least an inversion of it, in this story.

 

[bunface @bunface]

@dr-pepper-bean

Really? Why is it a white saviour then? Where does your definition come from? Any definition I see refers to white colonialism etc etc.

Isn’t it the point on this episode that yes the Doctor tries to save the group, but without judging them, and that can’t happen because he doesn’t fit the saviour mould as saviours can only be white?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Very late in arriving on the scene this week (life etc,…) but at least it has given me time to read and reflect on everyone’s reactions and theories.

For me this was another winner, third in a row, and RTD appears to be on a roll now and not pulling his punches. As it did with @juniperfish and Prof. Wilson in the link given us by @craig, this episode struck me from the off as satire, and pretty dark satire as it turned out, taking some social tendencies and attitudes to extremes. It opened gently enough, with the washed-out pastels of the colour palette symbolising the insipidity of this most vapid and superficial end of social media. Nothing unfamiliar or remarkable in itself, except that it seemed to constitute the entire existence of Lindy and her friends. Judging by what we saw it seems doubtful if the partying which occupied so much of their days involved face to face interaction, even if or when they were all gathered in one physical location – just each dancing on their own in their individual bubble. Lindy’s surprise in meeting Ricky in the flesh certainly suggested as much. In fact these people didn’t seem to be friends in any real sense or depth, just a circle who validated each other’s self image while chatting inanely.

Lindy, of course revealed herself eventually as a complete sociopath, with not a spark of empathy or real concern for others, and as far as could be seen the same was probably true of most of her group to some degree. Ricky was an exception, and his altruism doomed him. Prof Wilson called them toddlers, and they did indeed have all the solipsism, desire for instant gratification and practical inexperience of toddlers. The difference between them and the space babies was that despite their extreme physical immaturity the latter had, with the help of Nan-E, developed a sense of responsibility and a the ability to deal with their environment.

This set me to pondering the question of how much sociopathy and psychopathy are inborn and how much the result of nurture (or lack of it), and in this case I felt it could to a large extent have been the latter. These were the offspring of wealthy parents who had indulged them in everything material that they might want, imbued them thoroughly with all their social values and prejudices, but seemingly provided them with little of practical or moral worth. There doesn’t seem to have been much in the way of physically demonstrative affection either, since Lindy and co. were unaccustomed to hugging. A very dysfunctional kind of parenting.

Given such an upbringing, cushioned from anything at all unpleasant and cocooned in bubbles from birth – first the bubble of wealth and social segregation, and then twofold in their individual social media bubbles and the literal bubble of the force field which protected Finetime from the world beyond – it’s no wonder they had failed to develop into rounded and fully functional young adults. Lindy was so infantilised that she couldn’t even navigate her immediate environment with out step-by-step instruction.

At the end, those who had escaped the predatory slugs stood no chance. For all their self-elected leader’s talk, they lacked the knowledge and even the most basic skills to survive, let alone make a new life as pioneers in the wild. They were destined either to fall prey to whatever perils lurked in those woods and hills or to starve to death. They were horrible people but also pitiable, and I felt the Doctor’s frustration and sorrow at their rejection of him and his offer of rescue.

On another tack, I am surprised that there were people who didn’t notice the racism until it was pointed out to them afterwards, but in Doctor Who Unleashed RTD said that he had wondered how long it would take viewers to pick up on the signs, such as the uniform whiteness of Lindy’s circle and the reactions to to the Doctor when he first appeared.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Susan Twist appears yet again in the cast list for next Saturday’s episode. Maybe all will be revealed in the two-part finale, or maybe it has been just a protracted tease, with no other significance.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

Did anyone else get the vibes of Luke Skywalker fighting the drone with his helmet on in the Falcon?

I’ve just been reading through the comments again to refresh my memory and noticed this, which I’d forgotten.

Yes, when I saw Ricky fighting of the dot first time it immediately recalled the image of Luke Skywalker with a light sabre, though not that scene in particular, I admit.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Orange. Have you noticed how prominent the colour is in the clothing of both the Doctor and Ruby? Is it just an art director’s choice (and it is a great colour) or something else?

I would love to have a complicated theory, but I suppose I will just have to accept that it is just a cool colour.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@mudlark The “no hugging” I thought, reflects the growing tendency to view all tactile signs of affection as suspect. Teachers for instance cannot do anything but talk to a distressed child. Hugs however are natural and release positive endorphins that we need. Fear of paedophilia is blurring the distinction between positive and harmful contact. The reaction to hugs reflects not only the lack of the physical in the digital reality they inhabit. RTD has reflected several layers of social breakdown in this. I also think that these young people are not reflective of all of their generation. They are a privileged subset that he is taking aim at. (And I loved it.)

Ricky September was the hero, and so the likeness to Luke is apt and no doubt deliberate. This is a world that has no sympathy for heroes and nobility is something to be used and abused. AT that point I really wanted to feed Lindy to the bugs.

Oh dear by the end I had no empathy at all for the “victims”.  I feel as though RTD was testing our own empathy too in this episode but the Doctor knows all we know and still has empathy, and still tries to save these utterly vile people showing just how superior he is. That is his/their superpower..

@blenkinsopthebrave. I think they may simply be using orange because it is not a “loaded” colour and has less attached meanings that most colours and it is flattering.

Cheers

Janette

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@janetteb    re the no hugging: I knew of the policy regarding teachers and the like – not that I recall teachers ever hugging pupils when I was small, but it’s surely not taboo for parents and close relatives ?  Perhaps this was a society in which wealthy people mistook over indulgence in material things as the best way of demonstrating parental love.

@blenkinsopthebrave  @janetteb  Boring explanation: perhaps the orange in the Doctor’s and Ruby’s clothing was chosen simply to make them stand out against the predominantly pastel and muted tones of Finetime

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave @mudlark (and everyone) –

I think the hugging/not hugging in this is indicative of how isolated these kids are – socially and physically. It’s also a wee throwback to Capaldi’s Doc who hated hugging, and Ncuti’s fist appearance in the bigeneration where he hugs his previous self (“I’ve got you”). They’ve been abandoned by their parents who surround them with material things but no life skills at all. These kids are even isolated from each other – I hate to think what their parties are like – I can’t imaging that it involves them actually being together in the same room.

In lots of ways Ricky S is a mirror of the Doctor – it’s striking he uses the same words “I promise I’ll save you” and leads her by the hand – very Doctorish. But with Ricky, Lindy is prepared to follow… until she betrays him in the most callous possible way (shades of Winston in 1984?).

The other thing that struck me is that Finetime is literally a bubble world – it’s enclosed in a big bubble – just as Gallifrey is! In fact this society isn’t unlike Time Lord society – it’s isolated, segregated from the plebs/Shobogans self-aggrandised and self-entitled. Tho I think the more direct reference for RTD is probably UK’s “ruling class” system – boarding school, Eton (“eaten”, LOL), groomed to expect to lead, expectation that the elders will sort out any problems and completely lacking in empathy and socialisation.

Orange  – probably as Mudlark says, chosen to stand out in Lindy’s bubble, but it does feature regularly in their wardrobe throughout the series.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@scaryb @mudlark @janetteb

Hugging… I refer you again to Azimov’s ‘Elijah Bailey’ stories… especially the first two: ‘Caves of Steel’ and ‘The Naked Sun’. Both are relevant but especially ‘Sun’: the Spacer society has very very different ethics and expectations. Especially Solaria, the Idaho Panhandle of Space: no physical interaction except for the purposes of procreation.
Hence, ‘are you two in the same room??!’ (Urghh!)

Obviously NOT exactly the case in Finetime. But are Asimov’s Spacers racist? Azimov depicts a clash of cultures. Some of them are arch racists only lacking SS epaulets. Others are liberal and yet apparently bizarrely effectual. Well this is pre ‘70 sci fi, but good! The sequels were weaker. Or you might say the first books were prophetic; after that he needed the money.

Are ‘Earthers’ racist against Spacers?? They ignore them and (with the weird liberals help) colonise the Milky Way. The Spacer culture is dominated by enormous wealth and robots… more than a little like Finetime! They’re going nowhere.

However, back on Solaria, no!! No hugging allowed. Look at me funny and send you a shouty text! Unless you’re kids; hug if you must but only with the robots. And grow up! You’re three, you wimp!

Oh. And a weird depraved Solarian woman seduces the hero. Hmmm. Fan service.

Still quite a good book though…

RTD had loads going on here and much of it may be contradictory. But some comes from The Spacer series I’m sure.

Can I also say, never mind that Lindy is undoubtedly a privileged entitled ‘flake in need of at least a gentle shake, her witnessing, with disgusting audible enhancement, the demise of poor Bertie, has to be one if not two of the most disturbing things I have ever seen on Who. Sentient and indeed sentimental slabs? Yeah, cool. Old lady life draining vampire zombies? After lunch maybe. Homicidal spacesuits/cadaver perambulation devices… uh… that’s happened twice hasn’t it?? Silence in the Library? I admit I have never watched Oxygen again.

What would Mary say?

Seriously, the bugs ain’t slugs but wood lice, ain’t they? Vashta Nerada supersized? Or… did someone mention a tribute to 3? Are we in a Carnival of Monsters, miniaturised entertainment (toy-maker??) world?

Go run with that!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

It was actually the Moff who originally came up with the idea for the episode and suggested it to RTD a good many years ago, but they decided at the time that the budget wouldn’t stretch to realising the necessary FX. Maybe Asimov’s stories were an influence*, but I agree with @scaryb, that what they probably had in mind was a certain type of upper class English family, especially pre-WWII upper class families, who seemed to think that demonstrations of affection would weaken the character of their offspring and sent them away to boarding school from age 8 in order to ‘build their character’. Any overt manifestation of affection they might receive was from their nannies who cared for them from babyhood until they were dispatched to school. The young Churchill barely knew his parents growing up** and was famously devoted to his nanny. The Finetime brats were probably reared by robots anyway.

Lindy’s reaction to the realisation that the Doctor and Ruby were together could be construed as surprise at the idea of two people meeting in the flesh, but I think that we were meant to read it as disgust at the idea of a black man and a white woman sharing a space.

Woodlice would be insulted by any comparison between them and the creatures devouring Lindy’s friends. They are harmless and benevolent creatures which perform a useful service in munching on decaying wood and helping in the recycling of organic matter. Slugs are OK when confined to the compost heap where they perform a similar service, but when I find them munching on my prize plants I take no prisoners, and some can be cannibalistic, as I discovered when I first found a group of them feasting on the remains of one of their own which I had dispatched earlier. The partial carapace on the backs of the Finetime creatures is similar to the ‘saddle’ on the backs of slugs, which in turn is a vestigial shell, as in snail shell, and in addition the creatures are covered in slug-like slime. Admittedly slugs don’t have anything resembling legs, but then the appendages on the creatures aren’t really legs so much as a fringe on their skirt. So I’ll stick with ‘slugs’ as the nearest approximation. 🙂

*It’s a long time -well over fifty years – since I read the books in question. I still have them lurking somewhere on the top shelf of my SF collection so, if the cheap paperbacks don’t disintegrate when handled, perhaps should read them again.

** Probably just as well, given the character of his parents..

[SoulEater441 @souleater441]

Such a missed opportunity in this one.

Instead of using the song “itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka-dot bikini” they totally could/should have gone with “purple people eater” and made the monsters purple…lol

[snocita @snocita]

OMG!!!

Is Doctor Who now aimed at Middle Schoolers?

The Doctor used to be for grownups yet accessible to kids. Now it seems aimed at children, and utterly mindless for anyone over 18.

It’s childish, immature drama; read: overly dramatic like Middle Schoolers everywhere, when everything is oh so dramatic but generally vacuous to any post-puberty brain.

 

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