Face The Raven

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Face The Raven

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  • #47700
    Starla @starla

    @nerys @drben – re. the quantum shade; I, like yourselves, interpreted that it could only be passed on once, to a willing party. Once done, the ability of the shade giver (in this case Ashildr) to revoke the curse was null and void. Clara’s fate was set.

    #47701
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @sirclockface @blenkinsopthebrave  I too have felt the order of the episodes maybe off, not backwards, but rather out of sync.  One of the main reason’s I think is the doctors clothes.  The whole season he has worn variations of t-shirts and the hoodie, now in the episode where Clara dies he changes into the crushed red velvet coat and his hair shorter and neater especially from TMA.  What if from Clara’s perspective it starts from UTL/BTF? It was mentioned by some that the premiere two episodes felt like a finale.  What if for the doctor it is the end and he’s already seen Clara die?  Crazy I guess.

    #47704
    soundworld @soundworld

    Hi everyone,
    I’ve been away so I was only able to catch up and watch the episode last night.  @drben I  DO live in a world of very-limited-media and thus had seen no headlines, spoilers, or otherwise.  So, although we all knew it had to come, it was a shock.

    Many things (apart from Clara’s amazing bravery) that stood out.  It really was quite stunning.

    ‘You’ve been retconned’ – words to the audience, I feel.  We’ve been fed another story of illusions.  In the telepathic field, the ravens could actually be something other than what they appear – all smoke and mirrors.

    Although, Clara is still dead (probably! – I think I would feel cheated now if they magically brought her back.   But, I do expect her to make another appearance, whether from an earlier time or from another reality).

    At first I was stunned and maybe disappointed that her death came about through something so seemingly random, but, it really works.  Just another day with the Doctor – but it could happen on any day.  Her bravery in the face of oncoming death, her quiet acceptance, whatever the circumstances, is what mattered.  A sacrifice for a good man who has young life to care for.  He’ll raise that kid on some good character-building stories.

    Wasn’t the Nethersphere (harnessing souls) all using TimeLord tech?

    I noticed the glow of light when the shade entered her, and wondered if it was a glimmer of regeneration energy.  Maybe its a soul-teleportation light!

    If we are correct in our Tarot interpretation of the souls journey towards growth then I really feel that Clara deserves better than having been transported to a hell.  @whist ““A sacrifice must be made in order to gain something of great value”.  Then we need to see that she has gained something of great value.  That could be difficult to show, of course!  I strongly suspect (hope!) that her innocence, her sacrifice, and that she faced the raven, will lead to a different Judgement (oh – there’s a card).

     

    #47705

    Random thought (from memory)

    In Family of Blood the Doctor had a doohickey that gave Joan a look at what life might have been like with John Smith.

    Just putting that out there.

    #47706
    Whisht @whisht

    @pedant – thanks!

    @juniperfish – fantastic – a list!! I think I maight suggest a couple of alternatives (as might jpamplore methinks!)

    @bendubz – the psychic worm things which acted as lights were… well worms (thus dragon-y)

    @jphamlore – I’m liking your current bonkerising (apologies if you don’t consider it as bonkers!). So, The Doctor went to ‘Heaven’ to save Danny and will now go to ‘Hell’ for Clara’s sake (I won’t suggest “saving” her, but she has to be allowed to die).
    But who would have created a ‘Hell’ of lost souls? Missy again (She’s done Heaven, now Hell)? And did Missy give the Quantum Shade to Ashildr when she took on looking after the refugees? Or was it the Shadow Proclamation (there were Judoon there, but maybe they were refugees too, but being policemen in this camp as its in their nature)?

    Spirits and death-energy (abused by the Fisher King in Under the Lake) – as mentioned before, is this energy needed to get Gallifrey (the World?) back?

    #47707
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @whisht ah yes, that may indeed be it. As for death energy being used to bring Gallifrey back, we’ve already seen something very similar this series. Ashildr/Me was involved in that as well.

    #47708
    Anonymous @

    @blenkninsopthebrave @bobbyfat @sirclockface @carrieanne

    Regarding the chronological order of the episodes.

    Usually, we have The Doctor travelling with a full-time, live-in companion(s) and so we see their adventures in order. The only ‘companion’ where this isn’t the case is River – she’s always turning up in the ‘wrong order’.

    Clara’s different to the other companions. She doesn’t live full-time in the TARDIS, preferring to have a few adventures and then go back to ‘real-life’ for a few weeks/months. This leaves The Doctor to wander about on his own (or with unmentioned companions) before picking Clara up.

    In this series we have Clara emulating (or trying to emulate) The Doctor. I think we’re still seeing the adventures in chronological order, at least from Clara’s point of view. The Doctor, however, is now playing River’s role. He’s the one who’s been showing up out of synch.

    #47709
    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    @jphamlore Hm, I thought the Ood we saw with the Cyberman was a “man” doing some repairs or modifications to him. No idea what the wife was.

    @ichabod In the Series 2 episode in which Ten and Rose went to Pete’s world, as well as in Death in Heaven, we saw a Cyberman’s emotional inhibitor thing deactivated, revealing what was left of the original person. So one could say that Cyberman do still have “souls” — they’re just the “souls” of the people they used to be.

    @pedant I thought that was just Ten using his Time Lord abilities. I only recall him grasping Joan’s hand or putting it on his book.

    @whisht While it’s very plausible that the policemen were Judoon, my first thought — because we’ve seen this latter species much more recently than the Judoon — was that they were Mire. Anyone want to confirm one way or the other?

    #47710
    Anonymous @

    @thebrainofmoffat

    my first thought — because we’ve seen this latter species much more recently than the Judoon — was that they were Mire.

    no plo po flo œ to ho flo yo œ wo flo ro flo œ do flo fo kro no kro to flo lo yo œ jo tro do do plo no 🙂

    Translation circuits activating Nope, they were definitely Judoon 🙂

    I can’t get a screen-grab at the mo’ but have checked. The little leather skirts they like to wear are a big give-away 😉

    #47712
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @jphamlore @thebrainofmoffat

    When Me says “Do you think a Cyberman fears a merciful death?” I think she may have picked just one of the species in her street to use as an example. I think we are not meant to know the actual species of the executed(?) man and his wife, and instead simply empathise with them and their situation. It is the same theme as Osgood refusing to state her species. It is irrelevant. She is an individual, and should be treated as such. The same is true of those accused of a crime by Me.

    (Plus, to slightly undermine my own point about it being irrelevant what species they are, I struggle to imagine a Cyberman running as quickly and nimbly as the man who appears to be killed by the raven!)

    #47713

    @thebrainofmoffat

    You may be right – it was from memory, but I thought the idea was interesting.

    #47717
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @fatmaninabox

    Clara’s different to the other companions. She doesn’t live full-time in the TARDIS, preferring to have a few adventures and then go back to ‘real-life’ for a few weeks/months. This leaves The Doctor to wander about on his own (or with unmentioned companions) before picking Clara up.

    In this series we have Clara emulating (or trying to emulate) The Doctor. I think we’re still seeing the adventures in chronological order, at least from Clara’s point of view. The Doctor, however, is now playing River’s role. He’s the one who’s been showing up out of synch.

    Oooh, I like that idea. Rather a lot, in fact. It would explain quite a few odd little moments (like the Doctor’s reaction to Clara in The Magician’s Apprentice, and his look towards Ashildr in The Girl Who Died). Anyone fancy having a stab at re-ordering Series 9 (so far) from the point of view of the Doctor’s timeline?

    #47718
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @fatmaninabox

    Yes, that is really rather clever.

    But are you proposing that the Doctor had adventurs with Clara after the events in Face the Raven, but before Clara experienced Face the Raven?

    It is at times like this I realise what a linear brain I have!

    #47719
    Anonymous @

    @frobisher

    Anyone fancy having a stab at re-ordering Series 9 (so far) from the point of view of the Doctor’s timeline?

    I haven’t given too much thought to the order of episodes from The Doctor’s point of view but I suspect that The Girl Who Died took/takes place after the events in the final episode.

    In Face The Raven, Mayor Me states that no-one leaves the ‘trap-street’ without being retconned. The Doctor was teleported away before this could happen and so I think that he’ll go back there either to confront or forgive Me but will leave having had his memories ‘hidden’.

    We know that retconning can be reversed. In Torchwood, Gwen – knowing that Jack had retconned her – did it by leaving herself clues. For Rigsy, it was the shock/confusion of his predicament that caused his memories to resurface. What, for The Doctor, could be more shocking than seeing the person who he may consider partly responsible for Clara’s (at this stage I’ll say ‘apparent’) death?

     

    #47720
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    But are you proposing that the Doctor had adventurs with Clara after the events in Face the Raven, but before Clara experienced Face the Raven?

    Yes. No. Erm, I’m not sure. Maybe.

    I have a headache 😉

    #47721
    nerys @nerys

    @fatmaninabox

    I haven’t given too much thought to the order of episodes from The Doctor’s point of view but I suspect that The Girl Who Died took/takes place after the events in the final episode.

    Except that in “Face the Raven” Clara remembers meeting Ashildr (which happened in “The Girl Who Died”). So that doesn’t make sense to me.

    #47722
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @nerys I have a pretty complex theory over on the spoilers thread (post #47670, about midway down the newest page, can’t miss it It’s a rather long post, though I wouldn’t suggest scrolling far below it) which can fit in to @fatmaninabox‘s theory, though I may have to do a bit of rejiggling of Capdoc’s arc first. Should be fine as a basic explanation at the moment

    #47723
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @fatmaninabox @nerys

    I did think it might be possible that, in Face the Raven, the Doctor we are with is pre-Girl Who Died, but the Clara is post-Girl Who Died. But there is a reference to a room in the TARDIS that the Doctor has dedicated to tracking Me’s movements. So the Doctor must also have met Me already. Although… gah, my head hurts! :¬s

    #47724
    nerys @nerys

    Ouch, I haven’t even had my morning coffee yet, LOL!

    #47725
    Whisht @whisht

    ooohhh – I have no idea if the episodes are in the ‘wrong’ order but like the idea (unreliable narrators and all that!!).

    If we really are seeing a journey based on the Tarot, perhaps we should re-order the episodes based on the ‘traditional’ order of the Tarot?

    Now, the only problem with that is:
    a) we disagree as to which episode relates to which card*;
    b) Moffat may have done a reading and had the series proceed in the same order as the reading (btw I think PK Dick used the I Ching when writing The Man in the High Castle);
    c) we might be wrong and Moffat might say “Tarot?? Wha?”

    *By the way, we might not only disagree about which episode relates to which card, but we may also have got the wrong Fool.
    We all thought that the Madman (in a box) was the Fool.
    But perhaps it was Clara (not a “pet” after all). If its her journey we’re seeing, then that might explain why we keep seeing her relationship to the Card (eg her relationship to the Magician; Hanged Man; person who must choose when shown the Wheel of Fortune) etc….

    #47726
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @frobisher could be that it changes from future doctor to current doctor when Ashildr changes to Me. He’d have the prior knowledge of her existence through Clara, it’s at a point when Clara isn’t actively travelling with him so there is time for a switch over, and it’s at an important turning point in the series.

    #47727
    Mersey @mersey

    @kharis

    I really see Capaldi as meant to be more unpredictable and to keep us in question if he is a good man.  He is not meant to be charismatic, but layered, tired and hard to reach.  

    That’s the problem with the Doctor! After all these years in this world (I lost count how old is he) you can expect that he knows who he is. I definitely knew who he was (at least who he was for me) but now I’m confused. Matt Smith established himself as the Doctor in the first seconds of the show. Probably it’s the new regenerative cycle. Everything is somehow new for him and he is the first one who fully feel the burden of his past. But now we’re heading towards the end of the second season and I still feel like the Doctor regenerated only few episodes ago. But I’m not complaining because he’s had really great moments (as caretaker and V symphony scene). Thank you for that post. It’s really great.

    @nerys

    I worry we are looking toward a time when the Doctor travels without a companion.

    It can be interesting but I hope for a bunch of companions. His relationship with Clara was very intimate and made him vulnerable.

    One could also argue that traveling with the Doctor for such a long time, longer than any of the other companions, damaged Clara irrevocably. 

    I feel really sorry for Clara, bacause she started as a very solid and stable person and died as a rather broken one (without a sense of stability).

    @juniperfish

    Your tarot post is amazing!

    @jphamlore

    I love your reference to the Chretien de Troyes’s Parcival. I read that Parcival couldn’t ask the question because he wasn’t ready at that moment to do that. He didn’t do the penance for his mother’s grief and death. Some authors say that Chretien changed his mind and decided that Gawain would be the one who finds the Grall.

    #47739
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @frobisher

    @whisht

    And from Face the Raven, off to Spoilers I go! <snip>

    “ooohhh – I have no idea if the episodes are in the ‘wrong’ order but like the idea (unreliable narrators and all that!!).

    If we really are seeing a journey based on the Tarot, perhaps we should re-order the episodes based on the ‘traditional’ order of the Tarot?

    Now, the only problem with that is:
    a) we disagree as to which episode relates to which card*;
    b) Moffat may have done a reading and had the series proceed in the same order as the reading (btw I think PK Dick used the I Ching when writing The Man in the High Castle);
    c) we might be wrong and Moffat might say “Tarot?? Wha?”

    *By the way, we might not only disagree about which episode relates to which card, but we may also have got the wrong Fool.
    We all thought that the Madman (in a box) was the Fool.
    But perhaps it was Clara (not a “pet” after all). If its her journey we’re seeing, then that might explain why we keep seeing her relationship to the Card (eg her relationship to the Magician; Hanged Man; person who must choose when shown the Wheel of Fortune) etc….”

    Like that idea. We haven’t had The Lovers card yet, have we? Clara and Danny reunited somehow (maybe in the Time Lord tech Nethersphere)? Being together with a loved one but being out of reach of the Doctor is very much an AG companion exit trope.

    #47740
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @bendubz11

    Right, I think @fatmaninabox is on to something over on the Raven thread (post #47719), so I thought I might as well try and fit that into CapDoc’s arc. I think that now you’ve brought up the retconning, it could turn out to be key.

    Episodes we know have to be in order:
    Raven/Heaven/Hell
    Apprentice/Familiar
    Lake/Flood
    Invasion/Inversion

    That leaves any change over from future CapDoc to present CapDoc in the spaces. Logic would suggest that Apprentice has to be after Raven in his timeline, since the confession dial looks in perfect condition in Raven, but has a chunk out of it Apprentice, and I don’t see any episode that could slot in between them, so lets link those 5 episodes together.
    Logic would also suggest the changeover has to happen at a time when Clara isn’t there. Yes we don’t know what happens between episodes, but since it’s a major plot point in this theory you’d expect the change over to happen on screen. That rules out a few more options.
    This would make the arc, starting at Raven, look like this:
    Raven/Heaven/Hell/Apprentice/Familiar/Lake/Flood/Girl
    Woman
    Invasion/Inversion/Sleep.

    That’s only two places left: before and after Woman. Now, in Raven there was the mentioning of a me surveillance room. Very Importantly, not an Ashildr surveillance room, a Me surveillance room. The only other episode in which she is referred to as Me is Woman, and we don’t have Clara in it, making CapDoc the only source, and probably meaning it is probably current CapDoc.
    Therefore, I theorize that CapDoc’s arc runs from Woman to Girl. This fits in nicely, as it allows for the retconning removing his memory of Ashildr, hence the faint recognition, and  it allows for the gradual destruction of the retcon through the episode. In resurrecting her he knows he is sentencing Clara to death, yet he still does it showing acceptance, as does the refusal to meddle with time and give Clara the missing Immortality chip. What’s more, by having the face reveal at the end of his arc, it makes it more poignant and gives it the meaning that I feel many thought it lacked. It is him remembering why he is The Doctor – he saves people, even if they’ve hurt him so badly he can hardly take it.

     

    #47741
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @nerys

    @bendubz

    The only other episode in which she is referred to as Me is Woman, and we don’t have Clara in it, making CapDoc the only source, and probably meaning it is probably current CapDoc.

    Except that Clara does appear at the end of this episode, correct? So are you saying that ending is really linked to an entirely different time frame, not in the immediate aftermath of “The Woman Who Lived”?

    OK, so I got a bit confused by the comments at the end of your post. Are you saying this is the order you think the Doctor is experiencing events?

    The Woman Who LIved
    Face the Raven
    Heaven Sent
    Hell Bent
    The Magician’s Apprentice
    The Witch’s Familiar
    Under the Lake
    Before the Flood
    The Girl Who Died
    The Zygon Invasion
    The Zygon Inversion
    Sleep No More
    The Girl Who Died

    #47742
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @bendubz11

    @nerys oh no it is, but she wasn’t there with Me at anytime, CapDoc had already left her and as far as I remember he doesn’t mention her change of title in that snippet at the end, it’s really just a conclusion to show he hasn’t completely abandoned Clara. Or at least that’s what it and the reference to the trip are to me anyway.

    #47743
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @nerys

    Oops, sorry, I got “The Girl Who Died” in there twice. I meant to have it there at the end only (if I interpret your timeline correctly, @bendubz11).

    #47744
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @bendubz11

    @nerys the order I’m saying The Doctor experiences events is:

    Woman Who Lived
    Zygon Invasion
    Zygon Inversion
    Sleep No More (it’s where this fits I’m still unsure of because of “the worst month of his life”, it might very well be before Invasion)
    Face The Raven
    Heaven Sent
    Hell Bent
    Magicians Apprentice
    Witchs Familiar
    Under The Lake
    Before The Flood
    Girl Who Died

    #47745
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @frobisher

    @bendubz11, I think you are getting somewhere with this theory.

    Does anyone know what the Doctor and Clara were wearing at the end of The Woman Who Lived, and if that corresponds with their clothing at the start of any other episode (e.g. Sleep No More)? The Doctor’s hair length may also be a clue – it noticeably fluctuates.

    #47746
    Anonymous @

    Reposted from the Spoilers thread on behalf of @nerys

    Thanks, @bendubz11. For folks like myself who rely heavily on visuals to process information, it really helps to have the order you’re proposing laid out! I may just watch the episodes in that order (minus the ones that haven’t aired yet) to see if it makes sense. Like you, I think “Sleep No More” might actually slot in before the “Invasion” episode.

    #47747
    Anonymous @

    @frobisher @bendubz11 @nerys

    Phew! All done now. Normal service has been resumed.

    And remember – only spoilers go on the Spoilers thread.

    Tsk, kids 🙄

    🙂

    #47750
    nerys @nerys

    Thanks, @fatmaninabox! Now, if only there were a way to delete that extra “Girl Who Died” from my list (fifth from the bottom).

    #47752

    @fatmaninabox

    Oops, sorry, I got “The Girl Who Died” in there twice.

    That’s just Buffy interfering.

    #47753
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @pedant Well she had to do it Once More With Feeling

    #47754
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @lisa  @ichabod   Re the subject of the tattoo-like markings around Ashildr/Mayor Me’s neck:

    Most people who have commented on the markings seem to have seen them as snake-like, but when I saw them in the trailer and subsequently in this episode they reminded me of plant tendrils – the tendrils of vines and clematis which wind around the stems of other plants, or trelliswork or wires and bind the climbing plant to the support, and I wonder if this might be more apt in the context.

    When the chronolock has almost completed the countdown, the markings dissolve into smoke which wreathes away to summon the Raven, so presumably they represent an aspect or element of the Quantum Shade.  When the Doctor tries to explain the Quantum Shade to Clara and Rigsy he says of it ‘ … once it is bound to a victim you could flee across all of time, all of the universe, it would still find you. ‘  So the analogy of  tendrils which bind to something else might seem appropriate.

    Changing the subject, there was a detail which I noticed on watching the episode for a second time today:  in the room with the stasis machine and the trap laid for the Doctor, there was a honeycomb pattern of hexagons on the panelling of the staircase, not dissimilar to the honeycomb pattern on the walls of the control room in the Tardis.  Probably just a bit of fun on the part of the set designers rather than significant, but perhaps worth bearing in mind in what comes next (?)

    #47755
    ichabod @ichabod

    @soundworld  At first I was stunned and maybe disappointed that her death came about through something so seemingly random, but, it really works. Just another day with the Doctor – but it could happen on any day.

    Exactly; this is what she’s basically agreed to by traveling in the Tardis; it could happen to the Doctor that way too (except then the fans would dismantle somebody in retaliation; talk about revenge!).

    A sacrifice must be made in order to gain something of great value”. Then we need to see that she has gained something of great value.

    She has — although she can’t keep it (well, none of us can, not for very long); and most of it others will keep for her.  So what has she gained by this?  For one thing an end to the fear that the Doctor will die before her and leave her alone; for another, the fear that she will fail him or disappoint him in some terrible way (it’s happened before — Dark Water), too terrible for him to forgive.  She’s gained a beautifully quiet, private declaration of deep mutual love in a room full of people; and, in extremis, she’s gained a few moments of perfect clarity (the kind that Ben Franklin said you get the night before you’re to be hanged) and uses it to assert her authority over him one last time, commanding him to take the high path rather than the low, dark one so that he can continue to be, in future, the “good man” he is and also so that she can be kept alive in his mind as the voice of conscience (I think that’s the whopper in the pack).  Rigsy will tell her story to  his “brilliant” daughter (wasn’t that a lovely touch?), giving that child an ideal of courage and compassion to look up to.  She’s learned the utmost extent of her own courage, the real stuff, not the swashbuckling flamboyance of a mere adventurer.

    And that’s just for starters.  Not a bad bargain, IMO.

    @frobisher  When Me says “Do you think a Cyberman fears a merciful death?” I think she may have picked just one of the species in her street to use as an example. I think we are not meant to know the actual species of the executed(?) man and his wife, and instead simply empathise with them and their situation.

    It’s also to explain why the punishment for crime in Trap Street is so dire; only something truly awful could keep members of the 27 species the Doctor has totted up as innately aggressive in line, for the safety of all the refugees.

    @fatmaninabox  Mayor Me states that no-one leaves the ‘trap-street’ without being retconned. The Doctor was teleported away before this could happen and so I think that he’ll go back there either to confront or forgive Me but will leave having had his memories ‘hidden’.

    That might be one way for him to lose his memories — of Clara, which could be a relief for him if he just can’t cope.  If Ashildr tries to help by blotting her out of his mind for him, that would be tragic on a scale that would really be —   It would also set him up as a (relatively) clean emotional slate for a lighter S10 and a new companion(s).  It would also enrage the part of DW fandom that loves Clara.  No, better not.  Guys?  Better not.

    @whisht  As far as I know, Dick using the I Ching to plot The Man in the High Castle is well-known among SF authors.

    I’m still waiting to understand why the Doctor “recognized” Ashildr at once in The Girl, but maybe it was just as he said: deja vue = remembering forwards.  At least, for him.  Gods know he sure has *reason* to “remember” her that way, now.  In any case, I can’t even start to cope with reordering the S9 episodes!  Of course, Moffat, who has a brain the size of an upright if not a grand . . .

    @mersey  now I’m confused. Matt Smith established himself as the Doctor in the first seconds of the show. Probably it’s the new regenerative cycle. Everything is somehow new for him and he is the first one who fully feel the burden of his past. But now we’re heading towards the end of the second season and I still feel like the Doctor regenerated only few episodes ago

    I don’t have that problem; I just see him as much more multi-dimensional than SmithDoc, which I like, but which meant a much slower unfolding of a more complex person who attracts very sharp shocks to himself (he goes looking for trouble and he finds it, quelle surprise) (literally, in the case of his confrontation with Davros), and each of those impacts shake him up enough to rearrange his many facets and bring different ones to the fore — a bit like a regeneration writ small.  I’m loving it — but I have a tendency to create coherence for myself even where it’s lacking, so . . .

    I feel really sorry for Clara, bacause she started as a very solid and stable person and died as a rather broken one (without a sense of stability).

    I never saw her as solid and stable, myself; more as a character developing very rapidly under tremendous pressures, from one-dimensional Impossible Girl to some one on an emotional roller coaster with an equally insecure and mercurial Doctor, to a person doing a dance on a tightrope in a state of mixed terror and delight while quivering with anxiety about the future, who comes down to Earth hard and fast in Raven where she’s fully realized, clear, purposeful, and forceful, in her final moments.  Shattered here and there along the way, yes, but with all the dross burned away by the urgent necessity of the situation, and operating at a peak of focus and simplicity.  Gorgeous, and deeply satisfying.

    #47757
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod                              @mersey

    After reading your Clara comments I think there is something about her addiction

    to the adrenaline rush (although not different but much more intense then previous

    companions)  combined also  with the her almost  ‘autistic’  cravings for control as

    a  total response to Cap Doc.   What I make of it is that  with Matt Doc  she was in fact

    more cautious  but with  Cap Doc  in so many  ways was opposite.   Also I believe the

    former  new how to make her feel groundedness and the Cap Doc gave her issues.

    That is what set the tone for me.  But she went out with grace.

    @mudlark

    I like the word tendrils.    Both snakes and tendrils coil and clasp.

    #47761
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @blenkinsopthebrave – it is indeed about a year, in human terms, but for a time traveller it might have been yesterday or tomorrow. Seriously though I am an avid reader of the site, but a terribly lazy poster. I tend to wait until i’m just bursting to get something out there.

    loving the development of  the out of sync theory and totally agree that there are clues in capdoc’s hair and clothes. I’m sure Moff has previous for going back and filling in the gaps and reordering things though I can’t quite place my finger on when…though blink and the pandorica eps had an element of it.

    there’s also a punchdrunk influence going on this series – punchdrunk are a remarkable ‘immersive’ theatre company for those who don’t know. They did a dr who themed theatre collaboration with the bbc a few years ago. they have a huge hit which has been running in new york called sleep no more, and their last uk show was called the drowned man …they did a pre show event which began with a tarot reading…oh I could go on…

    #47763
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bobbyfat

    oh, I could go on…

    Well, please do! It sounds fascinating!

    Maybe over at On the Sofa. I am sure I would not be the only person interested in punchdrunk. They sound brilliant.

    And I am still trying to work out the out of sync theory. I keep going back to the scene with Ohila in the Prologue. I am sure we will go back there…I think.

     

    #47764
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @blenkinsopthebrave the sofa sounds tempting, but not as tempting as my bed – i have a sandman to make…but i will post more about them when i have had a slightly less crappy day at work than i had today (if u remember from a few years back, my boss is missy!!)…but one quick thought on the topic – they take over disused buildings and the audience wander about inside, experiencing whatever action they happen to come across – so there is no linear narrative, you make your own narrative depending on the order you come across things, which fits neatly with my its all out of order theory for this series

    #47766
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bobbyfat  I’m with @blenkinsopthebrave here — more, please!  Sounds wonderful, something like a theatrical experience I read about in Finland, I think, a couple of years ago.

    #47779
    Akhaten @akhaten

    So I’ve thought about this long and hard and since I want to point the blame of Clara’s death onto one big thing, I’ve concluded that we can all blame the events of Pompeii from being the main reason on why Clara died. Without Pompeii, he would have never met Caecilius, which means he would have probably chosen a different face and with a different face he wouldn’t have saved me/Ashildr, and without Ashildr they would have never gone to Diagon Alley and Clara would have never faced the raven! I know Clara has to die at some point and the Doctor has a somewhat ‘fixed’ timeline but this is just a funny way of thinking about Clara’s death.

     

     

    TLDR – Fuck Pompeii!!

    #47781
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @akhaten
    Fuck Pompeii! 
    And in that moment thousands of Stormers started crying into their CDs

    (I’m joking of course)

    #47784
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Tears man. Tears.

    I smell a Master vs Doctor vs Valeyard on Galifrey conflict. It has been coming.

    #47828
    Starla @starla

    @bobbyfat mentioned CapDoc’s hair and clothing potentially being clues to the order of the episodes. Remember how there was talk (please forgive me if this is a spoiler!!) a while ago about the importance of what pants the Doctor is wearing… now, this really is bonkers, but is there some weird correlation between style of pants/clothes/even hair (e.g. first Doc style pants, 2nd Doc… etc) and order of episodes? Counting the Christmas episode there will be 13 after all. 😆

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>Hmmm… mind you, in the two parter Zygons he wears the same pants. Doh!</span>

    This is a really rubbish theory, but i just had to put it out there!!

    #47829
    Starla @starla

    Quote P.C – “There are some specific trouser things that happen for specific reasons”… 😊

    #47836
    Mersey @mersey

    @lisa @ichabod

    I really like your view on Clara but I think I focused on a different aspect. She, who had childhood like from a fairytale (it has been always very suspicious for me) with loving parents and such a terrible loss was a very cheerful, full of life and a little bit happy-go-lucky character. Maybe after her mum died she started to deny how sad and unfair this world could be or maybe she didn’t want to focus on this aspect of life (or as I’ve said she was just undeveloped). But the time with the Doctor made her face the truth that the world could be really evil. And she started to look like a person who really felt that.

    The previous companions gained something good, something positive from travelling with the Doctor. I think Clara lost everything. Her lover (maybe the love of her life) her happiness, the joy of life and the stability (her previous positive vision of life) (you can say that she was full of life and happiness when she was dangling above London, but I think it was like @lisa has said her addiction and her way to forget about the reality. She probably wanted to be too busy to think about her life. She was running from her past just like the Doctor. The last think that was left to her was the Doctor and her unshaken faith in him. But Doctor couldn’t help her and that faith eventually brought her death. For a moment I even thought that it was the Doctor who ruined her life but it was Missy. I don’t know how he could stick with her. Poor Clara.

    #47838
    nerys @nerys

    @pedant

    That’s just Buffy interfering.

    @bendubz11

    Well she had to do it Once More With Feeling

    LOL!

    #47840
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    In the beginning of S9E2 Missy tells Clara about the time when the doctor was alone with a teleport bracelet in a castle-type and in the snippet he was wearing a white shirt with a red velvet long coat. At the end of ‘Face the Raven’ the doctor was teleported to a castle-type place with only a teleport bracelet and was wearing a white shirt with a red velvet long coat.

    Also:

    @fatmaninabox @carrieanne @blenkinsopthebrave Brilliant theroies from all of you abut the order of the episodes. 🙂

    #47845
    lewis97 @lewis97

    @starla

    Quote P.C – “There are some specific trouser things that happen for specific reasons”…

    Let’s give this a go then. Below are screenshots, promo shots and behind the scenes photos from episodes 1-10 of series 9, as well as its prologue, arranged in the order they’ve been shown.

    Prologue

    The Doctor is dressed in his dark, possibly navy-blue jacket (looking at later images), and black trousers.

    The Magician’s Apprentice/The Witch’s Familiar

    When we first see The Doctor on Skaro he is dressed the same as he appears in the prologue.

    When The Doctor makes his entrance on a tank he is wearing a primarily white shirt and brown-looking trousers with white lines creating a checkered pattern, there also seems to be fainter white lines producing a smaller checkered pattern.

    At the end of The Magician’s Apprentice we cut to The Doctor revisiting young Davros on Skaro where it’s possible to tell he’s wearing the white shirt.

    This promo shot for The Witch’s Familiar gives a much better look at the trousers.

    Now if we skip to the end of The Witch’s Familiar we see Clara and The Doctor overlooking the Dalek city on Skaro where he is wearing the white shirt and checkered brown trousers. This is where The Doctor realises that he must go back to young Davros and instill the idea of mercy and we see him run off to the TARDIS before eventually getting to the final scene from The Magician’s Apprentice.

    Under the Lake/Before the Flood

    In both episodes, The Doctor now appears to have on his navy blue jacket and black trousers.

    The Girl Who Died

    Here The Doctor is wearing his navy jacket again, but now has on blue trousers with lighter coloured lines created a checkered pattern as before. It is clear, however, that these are a different pair of trousers to what he was wearing in the first two episodes.

    The Woman Who Lived

    Again we see a different pair of checkered trousers. This time they’re brown with much fainter lines producing a larger pattern than what we’ve seen before.

    The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion

    We’re back to all black and navy jacket once again.

    Sleep No More

    Due to the nature of this episode it was harder to get a good shot of the infamous trousers, but here it looks as though it’s the standard outfit seen previously.

    Face the Raven

    Although this is the debut of the red, silk jacket along with a white shirt and black cardigan/waistcoat, The Doctor remains consistent with black trousers.

    So by the looks of things The Doctor is wearing the same outfit during Under the Lake/Before the Flood, The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion and Sleep No More, and keeps constant with the black trousers in Face the Raven and presumably in the next episode at least, if not episode 12 also.

    He’s wearing some sort of a pair of checkered trousers in The Magician’s Apprentice/The Witch’s Familiar, The Girl Who Died and The Woman Who Lived, although they differ each time. I think most would agree that these have been the episodes which are likely to bear the most relevance to the overall story arc of this series, so it seems too much of a coincidence for these to be the same episodes where The Doctor experiments with different trousers.

    Whilst I’d love to now be able to produce some trouser-related theory, my brain is too tired from staring at The Doctor’s trousers for too long, so hopefully someone else may be able to come up with something. As others have suggested, this could have some bearing on the actual order of the episodes. I feel as though although we may have seen this series’ episodes in the order Clara experienced them in, the order may have been different for The Doctor.

     

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