Face The Raven

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Face The Raven

This topic contains 404 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  ichabod 3 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #47943
    ichabod @ichabod

    @juniperfish  the connection between the soul and the body, and the nature of the soul under Moffat are not clearly explicated (nor will it be, I am sure – why be definitive when you can play with such a deep mystery) 

    Good reminder that this is also *play* — without which undertone, I think it could congeal into a turgid mess.  As for “soul” as human speech translation of TL concepts, yes; they can’t let the Doctor get *too* alien, or we could lose touch with him entirely — and he needs his mayfies . . .

    @pedant  But she did not pick up the lesson. When the Gods give you a warning like that, you can be pretty sure that Nemesis has taken wing nearby and failure to take heed will have inevitable consequences.

    Oh, yes; and that *is* hubris, isn’t it.  On the other hand — would his Clara ever accept being just a puppy?  No.

    @carrieanne  when the Doctor decided to save Ashildr he said something like if anyone has a problem with it …to hell with them and now he’s, although the episode is called “Heaven Sent” one could argue he’s actually in a sort of hell.

    Yup.  That’s why I think his original defiance in Girl was in fact specifically aimed at the TLs, and we’re about to see their full response.

    @juniperfish  Although the text has been hitting us over the head with Clara becoming Doctor-ish as a bit of a problem, I don’t think the fault, if there is fault, for her death (if it is her death) lies with her.

    I think the fault isn’t a blameworthy one, because there’s no one (or everyone) fully to blame for it: the fault lies in the limitations of her human physiology re memory/wisdom acquisition, and breakability.

    #47944

    @juniperfish

    Although the text has been hitting us over the head with Clara becoming Doctor-ish as a bit of a problem, I don’t think the fault, if there is fault, for her death (if it is her death) lies with her.

    Oh, agreed. The fault for anyone’s death always lies with the one (or those) who dealt it.

    #47950
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @ichabod  I was thinking maybe it was a clue for himself, like he was the one who would eventually have a problem with it.  It’s weird for me like Missy was watching the Dr.  show when she was seen watching on her device she manipulates things with, not really sure what that thing is exactly.  I assumed TL tech.  Then in Sleep No More we get filming from the pov of the characters and then the sandmen make a viral video out of the footage.  The doctor told the Fisher King that this is where his story ends in BTF.  Bors wanted the doctor to tell him his story in the prologue. The Mire were fooled by a story.  Doctor 10 said “we’re all stories in the end”.  This theme goes a great distance back, but what does it mean for this series?  I read through all of your theories and they are amazing.  I have a hard time doing the @ thing because I forget and have to go back up to find it then I risk forgetting the point I was trying to make.  Your theories have given me other perspectives to what we’re seeing as well as confirmation that the things that pop out to me are hitting your guys radar as well.

    #47956
    Mersey @mersey

    I have my small but rather powerfully bonkers theory on Clara’s death. It’s based on Swan Lake. Clara is Odette, Danny Pink prince Siegfried and Doctor or even better Missy, who made the whole Clara’s plot the dark wizard Von Rothbart. Odette remains under the spell of Von Rothbart but she meet the prince and falls in love in him. They both of course dies. Siegfried as the first, then Odette who decides to comitting suicide. But after their death they ascend into the Heavens together, forever united in love. And Von Rothbart lost his powers. So I think Clara will somehow get Danny as her reward. Now you can laugh 🙂

    #47957
    ichabod @ichabod

    @juniperfish  The fault for anyone’s death always lies with the one (or those) who dealt it.

    I’d modify that: anyone (or those) who *intentionally and with malice* dealt it.  Intention, to my mind, is key.  Accidents do happen; that’s a hazard of the physical plane.

    @carrieanne  If my burbling here has given you more diverting ways of looking at this wonderful show, I have to say that I feel honored!  So many really clever and insightful people are involved in this conversation — I feel I’ve been privileged to find and join it, and I know I’m not the only one who feels that way.

    Your musings on the “story/dreams” aspect of this season is interesting — I keep forgetting that Ashildr was a story-teller in her girlhood, the puppets she used for her stories (well, the dragon one, which actually looked like a carved figurehead to me, not a moveable puppet) made a difference, a big one, in the life of her village when False Odin and the Doctor came to call.  And she’s still reading the stories in her own diaries, in Raven.  The idea of story itself as a force at play is active in this season on so many levels, enriching what happens (we’re going to see a humdinger Saturday night — well, half of it).

    So where does it go from here?  That depends . . . thereby hangs a tale.

    #47961
    nerys @nerys

    @juniperfish

    Although the text has been hitting us over the head with Clara becoming Doctor-ish as a bit of a problem, I don’t think the fault, if there is fault, for her death (if it is her death) lies with her.

    She managed to persuade three incarnations of the Doctor not to press the big red button and commit genocide on a planetary scale. She changed the history of the Time War and she knows it. If, as a result, this particular companion has an assessment of her capabilities which one might call reckless, it’s hardly surprising.

    True. Also, Clara (and/or her Claricles) have always been able to save the Doctor. At the very least, this Clara knows she did in “The Time of the Doctor” by peering into the crack and begging the Time Lords to save the Doctor. I don’t think there’s any doubt in her mind that her intervention played a role in the Doctor getting his new regeneration cycle. Her knowledge of that power, combined with the Doctor’s generally good track record of “fixing” things for those he cares about, would, I think, inflate Clara’s sense of invulnerability.

    #47963

    @ichabod

    That was me, rather than @juniperfish. I’d suggest that “dealing” comes with the  idea of intent inbuilt. Malice is sufficient, but not necessary, to establish responsibility. Of course, the one who deals can be the self.

    Anything else is an accident.

    #47968
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  Malice is sufficient, but not necessary, to establish responsibility.

    My mistake; I was thinking karmically (as I understand it), not legally.  Manslaughter, I suppose, lies between, then a spectrum of negligence leading to accident/act of god kind of thing..

    #47969
    ichabod @ichabod

    @mersey  Your theory is very bold.  It makes the Doctor co-evil and co-conspirator with Missy, two villains bringing down a virtuous heroine and her consort — congratulations on bonkerizing far out indeed.

    #47974
    Anonymous @

    It might have been mentioned, but here’s the omitted part of the script that mentions bringing Clara’s body inside:

    THE DOCTOR re-enters from another room in the infirmary, having moved her body inside. He’s utterly numb.
    But then he sees rueful, guilt-ridden ASHILDR at the chamber, busy entering something on the screen. Everything suddenly snaps back into focus.

    THE DOCTOR
    Not yet! Don’t send me yet.
    (he turns, urgent)
    Local Knowledge. Rigsy. Can I call you Rigsy now?

    RIGSY nods, emotional.

    THE DOCTOR (CONT’D)
    You’ll take her, won’t you? Take care of her?
    (Rigsy nods)
    You’ll tell her family, her school. You’ll remember her, you’ll –

    He stops short with a horrible thought, rounding on ASHILDR.

    THE DOCTOR (CONT’D)
    You will not Retcon him again. Damn your rules. She died for him and he will want to remember that debt until his very last breath.

    RIGSY
    Please? No one will hear about the street, I promise.

    ASHILDR is torn. The street is everything.

    THE DOCTOR
    ASHILDR! You owe Clara, and you owe me. You owe me this much.

    ASHILDR is pinned by his fury and his grief. Finally, she nods. THE DOCTOR looks relieved.
    ASHILDR presses one last thing on the chamber’s screen, andTHE DOCTOR’s cuff starts to make an eerie, wailing sound.

    ASHILDR
    I’m sorry, Doctor. I truly am.

    #47977
    Mersey @mersey

    @ichabod

    It is, but don’t take it so literally. When Danny meets the Doctor he sees how big influence he has on Clara. Clara is doing some extraordinary thing on Doctor’s command. That’s the spell. And we have this question If he is a good man? What if he has the evil side (eventually he has). Remember that travelling with the Doctor can ruin your life. Clara’s life was deffinitely ruined. But leave the Doctor. He doesn’t fit very well, because as the protagonist he’s supposed to be good. Missy is a better choice here. She is evil and she has some kind of power on Clara’s life because it is she who starts the course of the events which lead Danny and Clara to their deaths (choosing her, giving her the Doctor’s number, killing Danny? or just intercepting his soul, luring Clara into the Nethersphere, telling her how to be the Doctor). I know it doesn’t fit in Swan Lake scheme satisfactorily but that whole commemoration on DW site made me think that Clara will get some reward and the only reward I can imagine is Danny. (What exactly had happend to his soul after their last meeting? Had it just vanished?).

    #47979
    ichabod @ichabod

    @mersey  Clara will get some reward and the only reward I can imagine is Danny. (What exactly had happend to his soul after their last meeting? Had it just vanished?).

    Depends, doesn’t it?  On that still open questions, what does “soul” mean in Doctor Who?  I don’t recall BG Doctors using the word “soul” this way.  The Doctor seems to be an atheist (willing to be convinced, but skeptical because so far, he hasn’t found much in the way of God, gods, Heaven, or Hell in the traditional sense of those words).  So what is a “soul” to Ashildr, or the entity she’s made her bargain with, or for that matter to the shade/raven?  Let alone to the Doctor, who now is using this word.  Questions; I have no answers.

    #47980
    Mersey @mersey

    @ichabod

    As a soul I mean that part of Danny, which woke up in the Nethersphere, his consciousness.

    #47982
    Anonymous @

    probably others have picked this up but at the beginning it really looks like the Doctor is wearing a Jaws t-shirt -or a serpent shirt? Kind of reminds me of the picture in Under the Flood with the woman in the ‘jaws’?

    Puro

    #47983
    Anonymous @

    @nerys

    that is very good indeed

    Her knowledge of that power, combined with the Doctor’s generally good track record of “fixing” things for those he cares about, would, I think, inflate Clara’s sense of invulnerability.

    Puro

    #47985
    nerys @nerys

    @puroandson I couldn’t make out the design of the shirt, which is part of why I questioned whether it was some sort of material that got splattered on his shirt, or an actual printed design. But I think it is indeed printed on there.

    #47989
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    On a rewatch looking for a serpent (it looks like CapDoc’s shirt had a shark on it) and I just noticed something.maybe just a coincidence, but when CapDoc is telling Rigsy he’s about to die, he isn’t facing Rigsy. He’s facing Clara.

    #47991
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Anddd bingo! Just after Ashildr/Me permits them entry, when the group are naming Rigsy a murderer, hissing can be heard. we have our snake reference people!

    #47993
    Mersey @mersey

    The more I watch the scene with Clara’s death the less I like it. Not how Clara acted, because that was very heroic. I don’t like that shadowy thing. What is the cause of Clara’s death? Is it like Avada Kedavra which leaves no physical damage or maybe her soul was taken by the dark smoke like dementor or she was just poisoned by the cloud of smog? I’m joking a bit but for me it was too much magic to little physics. Plus Diagon Alley. Maybe that’s the point. The Magician’s trick is not over yet 🙂

    #47994
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi all,

    @puroandson – good to see you back! &son – great to hear from you (I wish I was as articulate as you when I was…. erm…. actually, I just wish I was as articulate!)

    Whether I call you &son, Lion (was that Ichabod? lovely!) or Scion of Puro I’m sure whenever you get chance, we’ll enjoy your thoughts!

    And Puro – yep, I’m pretty sure its a shark on his t-shirt too.

    @frobisher and @juniperfish (and @kharis if you’re interested!), I’ve thought of Tarot Cards for each episode.
    It kind’ve makes a sequence through the Tarot and the only one that doesn’t fit my associations is Sleep no more – so as story structures go, its not a bad theory….(?)

    Prologue (Setting out on a fool’s journey)
    0. The Fool
    – Doctor (or Clara…?)

    The Magician’s Apprentice
    1. The Magician
    – Doctor

    The Witch’s Familiar
    2. The High Priestess
    – Missy

    Under the Lake/ Before the Flood
    5. The Hierophant
    – The Fisher King

    The Girl Who Died/ The Woman Who Lived
    8. Strength
    – Ashildr

    The Zygon Invasion/ Zygon Inversion
    10. The Wheel (of Fortune)
    – Bonnie-as-Clara

    Face the Raven
    13. Death
    – Clara

    Sleep No More
    18. The Moon
    – Le Verrier Spaceship? [I think this is stretching even though the whole thing is ridiculous!!)

    HS
    20. Judgement
    – TBD

    HB
    21. The World
    – Gallifrey

    #47999
    Anonymous @

    dear @whisht thankyou I try. But I’m trying here really hard. At school, my notebooks are pretty terrible. Mum gets awful mad about that, but teachers never ever check them so it doesn’t matter. In my opinion. You are articulate. I read your posts! I don’t understand tarot but I can see the connections.

    @bendubz11 great minds think alike! I didn’t notice the hissing, that’s amazing! The Doctor was looking at Clara -I never noticed it and I just watched it again (oh god not again mum!) yesterday. She’ll want to watch it again today but I have a new phon e (OK, first phone) to play with so I can do both.

    Thankyou

    #48013
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    regarding souls- it is a word with a sometimes flexible meaning. In Russia the serfs/slaves/robots who came with the land were sometimes referred to as ‘souls’ in transfer documents and I don’t think they meant that the owners owned their immortal spirit.

    #48020
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @puroandson oh I don’t know about me having a great mind, just someone who desperately wants the snake theory to be possible. Enjoy your new phone, I remember how much I played with my first phone when I first got it!

    #48030
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    I had a feeling you weren’t quite feeling it for this series (or the last with a couple of exceptions). A bit like the way you talk about the Eccleston year? If it’s any consolation, while I appear to be enjoying it more than you, I don’t think Peter Capaldi has topped the peculiar and mad personification of the Eleventh in my eyes.

    The one aspect I think he is extraordinary at is monologues and keeping my attention. This goes back to Into the Dalek and Listen, and have only increased this series. He is really good at that stuff. So I’m particularly interested by the sound of tonight’s episode.

    Right now, I’m not even sure I want to watch next Saturday’s episode. 🙁

    With your acting background I can’t help but think you’ll watch it just to see if they can pull off an entire 50 minutes of Doctor single hander. The nearest they came to that was the Matrix in Deadly Assassin. I’m hooked by the prospect.

    Just on Clara’s fate, I don’t think I agree with the assessment that she couldn’t be the Doctor. She was too good at it in some regards. Reckless it may have been, but the desire to save her ‘companion’ and agree to take the fall echoes Five and Peri, and Ten and Wilf. The Doctor just has that get out of jail free card. Regeneration.

    #48031
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Just on the Soul question, @juniperfish pointed out in the early days of the site (on the Faces of the Doctor thread) the rise in references to soul under Moffat. It doesn’t particularly concern me because it has been used in the old series and as a concept is mixed up with the animating principle and consciousness, not the particular everlasting soul concept of religion. Take this from The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe:

    Describing trees:
    DOCTOR: They’re pure life force. Souls, if you like.

    And the fate of said trees:
    DOCTOR: The life force of the whole forest has transmuted itself into a sub-etheric waveband of light, which can exist as a
    (He is stopped by a Look.)
    DOCTOR: The souls of the trees are out among the stars, and they’re shining, very happy.

    I think @ichabod asked about the BG years, and The Savages with William Hartnell sees The Doctor’s life force being referred to as soul, and there are a few other instances with Troughton, Pertwee and Baker. Image of the Fendahl is the last that comes to mind. The Fendahl consumes life force. The Doctor agrees with the Witch who helps them that the thing ‘wants her soul’.

    I think the Doctors decision to upload River to CAL was based on responding to his later self’s wishes @juniperfish and given her convoluted story may not be at an end (and her echo came in very useful in Name of the Doctor) the future version may have his own perspective. Even so though, uploading to the Gallifreyan Matrix was the natural end for Time Lords. A good foreshadowing of her nature.

    #48032
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @lewis97

    I commend you on the trouser research. It reminds me of @juniperfish and her dedication to bow tie colours. Her theory that they were linked to Time travel (red and blue shift) was actually confirmed by the costume designer after his departure.

    #48033
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @phaseshift @lewis97 does that mean the bow tie colour changes were SmithDoc’s version of Tennant’s changes in suit colour?

    #48034
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bendubz11

    Oooh – I’ve never come across that correlation with suits. The only stylistic theory I’ve come across with 10 was that his hair height indicated his mood. Happy? Quifftastic! Sad? Flat and plastered down. 🙂

    #48035
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @phaseshift

    Yes, it is like Eccleston. Sad, because it’s the (possibly temporary) end of AG Doctor Who being ‘must watch’ TV for me, and that period has lasted from early in David Tennant’s tenure. Not to mention the effective end of a lot of bonkers theorising. Still, there’s always the next Doctor. 🙂

    And really surprising, truthfully, because I like Peter Capaldi’s work and thought he’d be brilliant when he was cast. I think he is brilliant, but – somehow – his Doctor is a performance I admire and respect, but don’t like.

    With your acting background I can’t help but think you’ll watch it just to see if they can pull off an entire 50 minutes of Doctor single hander.

    No. 😕 I’ve thought about it during this week, and decided that yes, great actor, yes, great writer, but – I actually don’t want to watch it. It’d be like an award winning performance of Strindberg’s Miss Julie; the quality of the performance and the high regard I have for the writer doesn’t change the fact that I don’t like the play or the characters. I’d be watching it for ‘work’, not for ‘fun’.

    In the end I decided the best thing to do was to compromise: I’ll record this and the final episode, in case I change my mind later, then take @juniperfish‘s very sensible advice and plan to definitely watch the Christmas Special.

    Given that the Christmas Special includes a character I already know I like. 😉

    #48090
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip

    I sometimes liked watching the show for Capaldi or Coleman but not always.

    You haven’t been alone.  Its all about the stories and the supporting characters

    and the ongoing mysteries for me .  Haven’t felt  especially drawn by a lot of

    the seasons episodes but they were all good and a few very good.  But I watch

    the show for the big arc story in particular. I agree that they are both good actors

    but I didn’t care much about that particularly . Its  rare that I feel chemistry with

    screen characters,  doesn’t happen a lot. I find that  if I substitute a different

    actor in a role then sometimes  it becomes better in a weird way in my head..   It looks

    like there will be some arc puzzle pieces imbedded in the next few episodes so that means

    I’m watching .       BTW,  I liked, Davros, Missy, River , Ohila, Rigsy and some others in supporting

    parts..

    But if you cant watch the show because of dissatisfaction with one part think about all the other

    parts that you like and I enjoy reading your posts after the episodes.    🙂

     

     

     

    #48118
    ichabod @ichabod

    @miapatrick   In Russia the serfs/slaves/robots who came with the land were sometimes referred to as ‘souls’ in transfer documents and I don’t think they meant that the owners owned their immortal spirit.

    They used to talk of disasters in similar language — such and such a ship sank and 120 souls were lost.  I think it just meant “living human beings”, as all were assumed to have souls whatever religion was involved.  Which works fine with this:

    @phaseshift   it has been used in the old series and as a concept is mixed up with the animating principle and consciousness, not the particular everlasting soul concept of religion.

    #48313
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @fatmaninabox

    A belated sorry and thanks for moving the posts from Spoilers. Apologies for taking the discussion “off piste”.

    #48656
    CedarBranchTardis @cedarbranchtardis

    I have slowly warmed to Peter Capaldi as The Doctor. I will miss Clara, she is/was so cute. As the “Impossible Girl” hasn’t she already died twice? Sometimes hard to keep up. Some of this may have already been covered. I need to visit here more often. Spoilers anyone? Catch me up please.

    #50000
    birdtomahawk @birdtomahawk

    Opinion is that Face the Raven is beautiful and heartbreaking, with a well-justified appearance from Ashildr, as discussed below:

    #50172
    Missy @missy

    My gawd! I enjoyed this one – exceedingly.
    I felt for the Doctor, there was nothing he could do – this time.
    He has said that he can’t always save the day and this was one of those days.
    Clara did bring it on herself by trying to be clever, thereby outsmarting herself. Still, as she said, perhaps this was what she wanted, because she was never truly happy after Danny died.
    A bit of a weeper I fear – loved it though.
    The only downer was Maisie Williams – again! I don’t know what it is about her, but she always rubs me up the wrong way.

    Missy

    #50179
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy   As to bringing it on herself — I don’t agree.  She gets a sort of Rube Goldberg accidental death, more indirect than Danny’s, but just as unpredictable and “ordinary” as his.  I think it’s in the Extra with this episode that Moffat talks about how they took care to make it impossible to lay *blame* for this event on any of the characters — it was just exactly the kind of thing that the Doctor has been afraid would happen to her just because she went with him into dangerous situations, and in spite of any precautions he might take (like getting Ashildr’s promise first).  And yet, how could he prohibit her from getting the thrills of competence and courage that she came with him to find?  As Moffat says, her plan was perfectly sound, based on her past experience with the kinds of trouble that the Doctor gets into.  She just wasn’t thinking about it in a “legal” sense — how her taking Rigsy’s tattoo voided that promise by changing the binding effects of Ashildr’s contract with the Shadow/Raven.  Adventurers aren’t lawyers.  Usually.

    Which doesn’t mean she wasn’t, at some level, looking for just such an outcome . . . and it was very weepily satisfying.  As for Maisie Williams, I thought she did a sterling job, but she doesn’t really connect with me, as an actor — yet.  Maybe someday.  Nobody “works” for everybody (see Mersey’s non-connection with Capaldi — no negative reflection implied on anyone).

    #51552
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    I saw “Face The Raven”

    “Clara my Clara”

    I had the smart idea to see the episode at midnight so….of course, no good sleeping night yesterday.
    I don’t know if i’m mad with Moffat or not, but i know that as a huge fan of Clara i’m still in shock. I try to think why the writers made the choice to kill Clara now at her best… and at first i thought at another joke like the “Snowmen” scenario but then i realize this…Clara in the last two years she’s turn in the smartest,brave and cleaver traveler in the story of Doctor Who but this is the problem…she’s become another Doctor and no more a companion! They no longer coexsist…the same face of the same coin….but still the best Doctor and the best companion, now it’s hard to do best.
    I liked Ashildr but now is on my black list too.

    What happen to the Doctor? He leaves the earth? I smell Davros!…so he forgot that Clara is dead? Ashildr said that who leaves the hidden city no longer remember.

    Ps. I need a second rewatch because i’m still in shock but i heard some beautiful moment from Murray Gold this week.

    #51582
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    Guys one question about Clara.
    Remember the Clara paradox of the season 7? Is possible that Clara return in the next years and meet again the future reincarnation of the Doctor?

    That paradox still works?

    #52102
    Pharell, Man! @pharellman

    Good question. I think, it still is, and someday we will see a Clara’s short scene, rescuing the Doctor one time. It would be FANTASTIC! 😀

    #52108
    DoctorDani @doctordani

    @kbranagh I can see them pulling that out of the bag for a big episode. It obviously depends where Jenna Coleman’s career is at that point.

    #52580
    Missy @missy

    Full of hope, and sure I was right this time, I persuaded my OH to watch this episode.

    He didn’t even get as far as meeting Ashildr??? I told him I was pretty sure that he wouldn’t like Heaven Sent, now

    I was positive. What is not to like about the Raven?

    He enjoyed the Abominable Bride, which I thought he wouldn’t.

    The answer? He doesn’t like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. *sigh*

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52583
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    dear miss missy, I understand that people wouldn’t like him? My friends prefer David Tennant or Eccleston but I liked Tennant at the time but I now realise it was  a  childish phase I was going thru -not that people who like him are childish. But I felt I approached it from a child’s POV when I saw Smith I was not interested -angry, that he’d taken that role. In the end I loved Smith and will always love him. I like Capaldi but I don’t love him the way my uncle does and my mum.

    I can see that he isn’t warm and he’s cranky definitely. That could upset people. In a way it was necessary to have a more cranky, older person in that role.

    I have a bet on that young irish actor damain molony maybe being the next doctor. Relatively new, good at his job and probably would be happy with the pay -which isnt’ millions and millions if it’s the bbc.

    THankyou,

    Son of Puro

    #52593
    Missy @missy

    Son of Puro

    You are right. Fortunately I had a lot of time (excuse the pun) for all the Doctors, they all had their own little quirks.
    I. like you. didn’t like Matt Smith at first, in fact I almost stopped buying the series because of him. However, deciding that one should not judge by one episode, I continued watching, and finally came to be as fond of him as the others.
    Peter Capaldi is another matter entirely. In my mind, HE IS the Doctor, but some of his quirks would irriate some.
    To me, he seems more human than the others.

    The BBC don’t pay millions, and that’s for sure, but they really are so good at ferreting out superb writers and actors.

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52599
    Anonymous @

    @missy I feel the same way, namely:

    “didn’t like Matt Smith at first”

    “Peter Capaldi….In my mind, HE IS the Doctor”

    #52600
    Missy @missy

    @stitchintime

    Superb isn’t he.

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52601
    Anonymous @

    @missy
    “Superb isn’t he.”

    Yes, I think so. While I watched this season I made some notes. One of them was: “whatever material he gets his performance often makes up for it,” meaning, even if I don’t like the content.

    #52613
    Missy @missy

    @stitchintime

    I’ve never thought of it like that. Mainly because there is very rarely any bad meterial *grins* But, I know exactly what you mean.
    I still consider “Heaven Sent” as a masterpiece for both writer and actor.

    Ttfn

    Missy

    #52629
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  @stitchintime   Agreed on Capaldi, and most definitely on “Heaven Sent” — gorgeous piece of work (and let’s not forget the contributions of the director, as illuminated by her comments on her fb page).  Is it *perfect*?  Not quite.  I could easily do without Steven Moffat’s cliffhanger, “The hybrid — is me.”  Considering that “Hell Bent” follows this by leaving the true identity of the hybrid even murkier, that final line from “Heaven Sent” just feels like a tease without a pay-off, to me.

    On the other hand — everything else — stunning, so bitter with sweet and still the richer for it.

     

    #52635
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    Steven Moffat is a teaser, as is Mark Gatiss, but they ususally let you off the hookand explain – sooner or later.

    Missy

    #52637
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    The hybrid — is me.”  Considering that “Hell Bent” follows this by leaving the true identity of the hybrid even murkier, that final line from “Heaven Sent” just feels like a tease without a pay-off, to me.

    I wonder about that. Perhaps it wouldn’t be needed. However, I felt as I often do with a perplexing fugue that has two themes interspersed and reinterpreted with each bar and section. To me it was a fundamental theme spinning off into the next episode and then realigning once again -in a type of ‘coda’ shall we say?

    I also thought it could be seen as a metaphorical comment: “the hybrid is Me and I am the hybrid.” (coo coo ca choo -a bit of the Beatles for humour)

    Whether it’s “his Clara” or Lady Me, he is often a combination of the strongest companions from whom he learns justice, humour, a different gentility and some self recognition that he underestimates them in certain times of unprecedented crisis (just your average Dalek invasion. With Cyberman. And a void ship).

    Often calling them “brilliant, just brilliant” or “you’re wonderful, you are” makes me believe he’s a huge part of their world – and needs acceptance from them. I guess one could say he is very much a ‘human alien’ -what exactly that entails is somewhat murky to me.

    Additionally, reading or hearing from others, I don’t think, necessarily, that “Capaldi is the Doctor” anymore that Matt Smith or Bill Hartnell ‘were’ the Doctor. I certainly love this incarnation though 🙂 And I don’t want him to leave either.

    Cheers, Puro Solo

     

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