Hell Bent

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Hell Bent

This topic contains 1,009 replies, has 99 voices, and was last updated by  Miapatrick 1 year, 7 months ago.

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  • #50241
    birdtomahawk @birdtomahawk

    @missy I’m very much with you on Peter Capaldi.

    #50242
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    I think I am actually going to kiss you now.

    Yep, pretty sure that will happen.

    If you wouldn’t be in some other country, that is!

    Yes, Son is 14 and he gets things. The other one  -with whom you spoke – googles -and me, well I knew the Casey poem! So does Son -in his mind set (we love interesting poetry that has momentum, I think it’s a music thing).

    @missy we’re glad you’re enjoying the DVD.

    @ob-wan no dude, you did. You said some thing along the lines of “the doctor is nuanced. Yeah right” -to a poster who was polite and genteel.

    That is actually not really appropriate here -you could have written, “I actually think the Doctor isn’t nuanced because of these four examples. What do you think?”

    This is how it generally goes.

    But I understand  – we all have our favs. And he isn’t yours.

    Kindest,

    Puro and Son.

    G’night and 10 -4.

     

    #50243
    Anonymous @

    @ob-wan oh man you really did say “two old spinsters”.

    What a sexist blandishment. 🙂

    Mum is saying this and I’m typing. But I looked up ‘blandishment’.

    Double LOL

    Son of Puro. Have a nice day people, I’m off to play COD.

    #50247
    Anonymous @

    @puroandson @pedant

    Just had a look at MrTARDIS’s ‘review’ but got bored with it after 10 seconds.

    I don’t know if either of you saw the link to a petition to sack Steven Moffat so here it is.

    https://www.change.org/p/doctor-who-faults-get-rid-of-steven-moffat-series-9

    He’s very kindly done a little video to go with his petition which has to be one of the funniest things I’ve seen this year. The poor kid can barely string a sentence together so it’s no surprise that he doesn’t understand what he’s watching.

    I don’t know if it’s just my hearing playing up but at around the 5min mark, he mentions “The whole prostitute thing in Season 6 which almost nobody got”. WTF? Not sure what program he was watching but it damn well wasn’t Doctor Who (unless, of course, I’m one of those who didn’t get it).

    Most of the comments on his petition seem to be from family members who don’t even watch DW but hey, if their little angel says Moffat must go, go he must.

    #50249

    @fatmaninabox

    Oh that is just glorious!

    All the women are too cocky. OK. Yeah.

    Methinks somebody has ishoos.

    #50250
    DoctorDani @doctordani

    @missy Capaldi’s doctor is an odd mix of being the most stand-offish and the most accessible, which therefore makes him the most complex and three-dimensional. I think he’s so likeable because of his flaws, and because of the depth the man who plays him brings to the party. He’s what I like to call ‘The Doctor that Stopped Running’ too. Huge character development, which IMHO makes him the most interesting. Really hope they stick with that.

    @ichabod Isn’t the half human theory sort of canon with the 8th Doctor? I’m sure I’ve absorbed that from somewhere. I totally get what you mean about having an air of mystery, but the half-human thing has never bothered me. It flags up a nature vs nurture debate that could be pretty damn interesting to explore if they’re going use Gallifrey in a more effective way in the future. Besides, the beauty of The Doctor is that once you solve one mystery about him, he’s still an enigma wrapped in a carrier bag, locked in a safe and dropped to the bottom of the ocean.

    I don’t get the animosity towards Moffat. I really don’t. Yes, he doesn’t always get things right, but the man deserves a medal for all the nonsense he has to deal with. I’m 90% certain that the show wouldn’t have lasted this long if anybody else had taken over after RTD, and it’s pretty damn obvious that he can and will make more money in America if/when he steps down. There are very few people out there who’d be prepared to make that kind of sacrifice for the love of a show.

    #50251

    @doctordani

    @ichabod Isn’t the half human theory sort of canon with the 8th Doctor?

    Somewhere in AG Who The Doctor has specifically stated that he lied about that (can’t recall where off hand).

    But anyway, we have a Time-Lord-Human hybrid. The human half was called Clara. Gestalt, innit?

     and it’s pretty damn obvious that he can and will make more money in America if/when he steps down. There are very few people out there who’d be prepared to make that kind of sacrifice for the love of a show.

    Absolutely spot on.

    #50253
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

     

    IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan  <—- You failed to met your own standard…

    1) Have something interesting and pertinent to say – FAIL

    2) Root what you say in a theory of literature or at the very least a clear grasp of storytelling, its purpose and role – FAIL

    3) Be witty – FAIL

    Striiike 3. Yer out!

    ————

    Be careful about laying down standards for others that you are incapable of meeting yourself.

    #50254

    @ob-wan

    Be careful about laying down standards

    Says the poster who looked up the dictionary definition of ‘camp’….and then pointed at Peter Capaldi.

    Jeebus, you’re not even making sport of this. To repeat for the slow of clue-getting:

    Seriously. Read the thread and see the sort of standards we aspire to around here. ‘Cos this ain’t Youtube.

    Also, look around you. There’s actually intelligent discussion going on, right now, but you you are too busy being outraged to partake.

    Entirely up to you, of course, but “Stampy-footed teen who’s not used to be talked back to” is not a flattering look and it doesn’t make your penis longer.

    #50255
    DoctorDani @doctordani

    @pedant Oh yeah, I know that the ‘hybrid’ was ultimately a combo of The Doctor and Clara, but my speculation has stemmed from the ambivalent way that Twelve denied that he was half human, which I thought was deliberate. Thanks for clearing up the 8th Doctor thing though.

    #50256
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant    Also, look around you. There’s actually intelligent discussion going on, right now, but you you are too busy being outraged to partake.

    Oh no, you’ll drive Stampy away, and it really is a bit too much fun to keep him/her around a bit, n’est pas?  That said,  ain’t it always the way?  Too busy being “clever”, that one, to even try to learn to articulate thoughts worth expressing — a skill gratifyingly often observable around here.

    And yeah, I think some people hate the movie DW because of the insertion there of a comment that the Doctor is half human.  It’s been ignored by the writers ever since, and then was addressed as you point out, AG, in just about the same throw-away tone as the original assertion.  So I think it’s about as non-canon as anything in DW ever is . . .

    #50257
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @pedant @ichabod and everyone else.

    Sorry, been a bit busy (again). The dentist advertiser is now gone!

    I see we also have someone who likes to hide under bridges and hassle us lovely billy goats.

    I was thinking about playing with them for sport. It’s just so much fun. But I came down again on the side of just ignoring them. I hope you all do the same. I may change my opinion if they persist though.

    #50258
    ichabod @ichabod

    @doctordani   Capaldi’s doctor is an odd mix of being the most stand-offish and the most accessible, which therefore makes him the most complex and three-dimensional. I think he’s so likeable because of his flaws, and because of the depth the man who plays him brings to the party.

    Too true.  The melancholy Scot air that Capaldi uses goes much deeper than mere weariness, IMO, and it gives his Doctor a sort of grounding gravitas that works really well.  It’s rooted in “Scottish philosophy”, rather than in childish sulks.

    The Moffat-hatred has all the maturity of the mean-girls syndrome: the knee-jerk nastiness of the high school clique of bullies ganging up on the Smart-but-Shy One.  Doesn’t work so well, once the smart one pulls self together and starts putting his or her gifts to work out in the world.  But mean-girls can’t stop; too jealous and insecure.  Too bad.

    #50259
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    @puroandson

    “no dude, you did. You said some thing along the lines of “the doctor is nuanced. Yeah right””

    Congratulations!  You just won “The Silliest Reason for Flaming Someone Award”.

    So expressing incredulity is some kind of insult now?  Nonsense.

    ———————————–

    @pedant

    “Also, look around you. There’s actually intelligent discussion going on, right now”

    Well one could not prove that based on your comments.

     

    ———————————–

    @pedant

    “Entirely up to you, of course, but “Stampy-footed teen who’s not used to be talked back to” is not a flattering look and it doesn’t make your penis longer.”

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.  You’re not used to people calling you out on your BS, are you?

    And what’s this snobbery about information obtained via the Internet?  I guess you don’t bother to fact-check your posts?    BTW YouTube is spelled “YouTube”.

    #50260
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    Sorry, guys I would like to post deeper, more analytical arguments, but I work for a living and I’m a fan not a fanboy.

    I’ll try to make more of an effort if I can find the time.

    #50262
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    @fatmaninabox

    Sack Moffat?!  Sacrilege.

    I may not be entirely happy with the current episodes but Moffat has certainly proven his worth.

    According to tardis.wikia the only mention of prostitutes has been in books and audio, with the exception that “The Next Doctors” companion, Rosita Farisi, was apparently a prostitute before she met HER Doctor, according to the actress that played her – Velile Tshabalala.

    One of the characters even says to her – “You can be quiet; I doubt he paid you to talk”.

    But back to the point – Doctor Who has taken a ratings hit, but mostly in the live viewing numbers.  The final BARB numbers are comparable to past seasons.

    I put Moffat right up there with Joss Whedon in terms of their ability to produce enjoyable television stories.

    Capaldi has been a distinct change from the most recent Doctors (all three of them) but The Doctor is like taxis – if you didn’t get this one, hang on, there’ll be another one coming along any minute now.  No need to get radical and tear down the whole thing.

    #50263
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    @craig

    Surely there must be someone on this board who isn’t a pompous a**.  Know anyone?

    #50264
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @ob-wan I’ll bite, because that last (but one) post was actually the sort of post we like around here. I am willing to believe you just got off to a slightly misunderstood start. Feel free to continue in that vein and I’m sure you’ll fit right in.

    We’re actually very friendly round here – we just sometimes pull up the drawbridge and yell “Your father smells of elderberries” if we feel someone has just joined to denigrate something we all like a lot.

    It’s not being pompous, it’s just trying to protect our little space on the web that we hold dear. I would love it if you want to have conversations, but not arguments. This was not set up to be a place for flame wars.

    So I look forward to further posts from you. Welcome! Genuinely.

    #50265
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    Now that’s more like it.

    Take a look back at my first post and see that the very next thing I know I’m being called names and being “instructed” by some *****ss about how to write posts to satisfy his ego.

    (Although @puroandson did post a very nice welcome, but I’m afraid it got lost it the crossfire.  I should try to make up for that.)

    Most boards welcome new members and not with a slap in the face.  So I got defensive.  And one thing I’m really good at is giving as good as I get.

    Responding to insults is easy (especially considering the “competition”) but writing well-thought out arguments is time-consuming.  I am serious about not having as much time as I would like, but I’ll try to participate some more.

    #50267
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    @puroandson

    “you seem really familiar to me? Do I know you?  Maybe you’re at school with me?”

    LOL.  No, young man(?).  I’m much closer to the end of my race than the beginning.  Oh, to be 14 again.

    “Anyway, hallo and welcome to the site. It’s good to have new members all ways . So let me extend my welcomes.”

    Thank you.  I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner but there was an annoying gnat that was buzzing around and I got distracted with swatting him.

    “I’m 14 and so you don’t need to define ‘camp’. Where did you get that definition?”

    I think that was a Wiki.  You see I remember when American TV pulled a dirty trick on me – they said they were going to bring Batman to the small screen and instead we got a ridiculous clown show (hence the Adam West reference).  They said that was “camp” but I thought it was something else with a C and an A and a P in it.

    “The second: when an actor comes in on a tank, standing pretty still, then playing  guitar in style of calm folk hero, this is still ‘nuanced’.”

    We’ll have to agree to disagree about that one.

     

    “I start Year 9 in One Week.  Whoo -hoo.”

    Lucky you.  I remember when the first X-Men movie came out.  Opening day, I was reading some comments from people in Australia who had already seen it and one of them said –

    I envy you because you get to see it for the first time and I can’t do that again.

    #50268
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @ob-wan Yes @puroandson is/are (they are a bit of a hybrid) our most welcoming members and we love them for it.

    We have become a bit protective of this space as most other Doctor Who boards are just awful. And we have had to defend it time and again, from really awful people sometimes.

    Unfortunately it’s the internet and anyone can join. But we also wouldn’t have it any other way.

    Sorry today didn’t go so well, but I hope in future your experience will be a good one.

    #50269

    @ob-wan

    And one thing I’m really good at is giving as good as I get.

    Actually, you’re not. Repeating stuff said to you back is just exceptionally lazy plagiarism.

     I’ll try to participate some more.

    It just a pity it took three whacks with the clue stick.

    Now I really do recommend going back and reading through this thread, because you will see how dull, crushingly unoriginal and trollish-looking your debut post made you look. As I said, this isn’t Youtube.

    Entirely up to you, of course.

    #50270
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @pedant FFS! What are you doing? You want to re-start an argument? I just spent a while convincing him this was a welcoming site.

    Apologies @ob-wan

    @pedant Can you explain yourself? WTF are you up to? Are you angry about something else maybe?

    This is a site for discussion about Doctor Who, and other related, and not so related stuff. It is not a site for ego displays or shows of who’s got the biggest.. vocabulary.

    This needs to stop now.

    #50271

    @craig

    Yeah – fair, enough. Apols.

    Absolutely serious about reading back through the thread though (which is what I spent part of the PM doing today and was reminded of how deep the conversation goes here, so was maybe a bit more twitchy that usual).

    Was going to go back and clear it, but leave it as penance.

    #50272
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @pedant Cheers, and thanks for the other thing. But I think you need to apologise to @ob-wan too.

    Neither of you are bad people. Then hopefully we can all start off on a better footing tomorrow.

    #50273
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson  PuroSolo  — Well, maybe someday I’ll get myself invited to an Ozzie SF con, and swing by — not likely, but you never know . . . Thanks for the kind thought, anyway.

    Poetry — I only have a few scraps of it engraved on the inside of my skull (“From too much love of living . . . ”  Just found that misquoted on a page about Swinburne!  Bit of a shock, but glad my memory kicked in with a correction).  I took a nifty little compendium of “Best-Loved Poems” to spouse’s facility, and we both ended up smiling when I read some oldies aloud — “The Highwayman”, some Kipling stuff, etc. — the rhythms seemed to please, whether or not any meaning registered.  I was using that instead of haiku (the quick mental refocus required by the haiku form is no longer possible), but somebody walked off with the book!  Okay; hope they enjoy it.  I’ll get a new one, and keep it in the car for when I visit up there.

    Anyway, it’s the music in older poetry that works for us too, I think.

    #50275
    Anonymous @

    Hallo @ob-wan

    I’m 14 and so you don’t need to define ‘camp’. Where did you get that definition?”

    I think that was a Wiki.  You see I remember when American TV pulled a dirty trick on me – they said they were going to bring Batman to the small screen and instead we got a ridiculous clown show (hence the Adam West reference).  They said that was “camp” but I thought it was something else with a C and an A and a P in it.

    Oh, OK. I think I saw Batman when I was very young -the series and I liked it. I was about 5 and I was also watching Thunderbirds and they actually scared me. But, I think my telly vision improved when I was introduced to Buffy and Wheddon (and you mentioned him) last year by the people on this site?

    Mum is watching it again. I am in bits and pieces but she’d point and laugh if she knew. I didn’t want her thinking that was all I do, you see!

    OK. So you’re not at school. I am sorry about that. I thought I knew you.

    Mum worked too -until this year and then stopped but she had three jobs and was still doing these really long unconcise (inconcise?) thoughtful posts with some other truly amazing writers here. I will name check them @arbutus @mudlark @jimthefish @bluesqueakpip @pedant @tardisblue @soundworld and others -they all work as far I know and have the time to even write things out and then type them -mum told me that bit. Some work and study and write these posts. I think it comes from practise but I can’t write like them -I have soccer too and honestly, I like to read rather than write -unless it’s little plays and dramaturgy which I did in drama last year (this came after the class where I was told to “be a tree” -very bad drama teacher!).

    Yeah the Doctor is a very special thing. What I am interested in is that people have a lot to say about him which really means they love it and have that vested interest. You and others are not in-different. That says a lot about a show which means a lot to people -I mean at 14 I don’t even remember the stories of David Tenant all that much so I don’t have the history people have with it?

    I think Hell Bent had a lot of history of the show in it? So that could mean people are quite personal in their feelings about why and how they like it -or not. In a way, it’s a good thing -if they’re shooting at you then you’re doing something right. Mum says that all the time.   🙂

    I think she got that from another show or writer by the way. I think Moffat appreciates criticism and does -mostly -what the fanatics want. Fans are short for fanatics apparently (that makes me worried as I didn’t know that! LOL).

    I liked -of the old men doctors, Tom Baker -that voice. If he read books to me at night I’d be smarter. I should read more but I do not. I like poetry strangely.

    Anyway, I am rambling and probably on the wrong thread. 🙂

    Thankyou for reading.

    From Son of Puro (puricle  – from claricle made up by a member here.)

    #50277
    OB-Wan @ob-wan

    @puroandson

    “Oh, OK. I think I saw Batman when I was very young -the series and I liked it. I was about 5…”

    Well, I could read before I went to school because I was reading comic books, like Batman. Even though they were pretty tame back then I still had an appreciation for the Dark Knight. When they brought it to TV I was around 10-years-old (yeah, I’m pretty old) and it was an incredibly silly show. I was devastated and had to wait another 23 years to see Keaton’s Batman. Still a little silly but a vast improvement over the 60’s version.

    “But, I think my telly vision improved when I was introduced to Buffy and Wheddon (and you mentioned him) last year by the people on this site?”

    That will do it, for sure. There are a lot of episodes of Buffy. It was on for seven seasons with almost 150 episodes.

    Have you seen any “Firefly”? There’s only 14 episodes of that and a theatrical movie to wrap up the story. It’s also a Joss Whedon show and a very good one.

    “I am sorry about that. I thought I knew you.”

    No harm done, nothing to apologize for.

    “I mean at 14 I don’t even remember the stories of David Tenant all that much so I don’t have the history people have with it?”

    I first started watching Doctor Who episodes regularly in the 1980’s. They were shown on Public Television on Saturday nights. They took the half-hour episodes and put them together to show one story all at once.

    Peter Davison was The Doctor and I liked his style. After a year he regenerated into Colin Baker. I felt so ripped off because he was over so soon, but I didn’t realize that because they showed several episodes at once Davison had actually been The Doctor for three years! But I got to see all of him in one.

    BTW you may have already heard this, but did you know that David Tennant (the 10th Doctor) is married to the daughter of Peter Davison (the 5th Doctor) and she played David Tennant’s daughter in “The Doctor’s Daughter” (Season 4, Episode 6, New series)? A daughter of The Doctor played The Doctor’s daughter.

    “I like to read rather than write -unless it’s little plays and dramaturgy…”

    I loved to write when I was in school. I wrote short fiction and started a couple of books that I never finished. I won an award in sixth-grade for a short story in the school’s annual literary magazine.  It’s a good hobby.  It helps to organize your thinking when you try to share your knowledge and experience with others through the written word.  I even asked for a typewriter for a Christmas present when I was about 10 years old.

    Nowadays I only write memos and project reports for work.

    “(this came after the class where I was told to “be a tree” -very bad drama teacher!)”

    You should have asked your teacher “What’s my motivation in this scene? What is it my character is trying to achieve?”

    It would have been funny just to see what she said.

    Well, speaking of time I’m pretty much out of it right now. Need to get on to others things right now.

    Before we get caught for being off-topic, next time you want to discuss general things you should probably message me.

    Have a good evening/day whichever is appropriate where you are.

    #50278
    Missy @missy

    @doctordani

    Exactly! It’s the flaws in people which make them human, and I think that’s what endears me to this Doctor – as you say – his flaws.

    We know that eventually PC will leave, it isn’t welcome knowledge.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #50279
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    I am, but a little heartsore too – is that one word?

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50280
    Missy @missy

    @birdtomahawk

    Amazing actor, simply amazing.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50281
    Missy @missy

    @doctordani

    How rude of me. Welcome to the forum. *grins*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50282
    Anonymous @

    @missy oh yes indeed it is.

    And I  agree.

     

    #50283
    Missy @missy

    @fatmaninabox
    Time Lord

    Have just watched the video and, in a way, he’s quite brave to make his point in the media.
    However, if he can write as well as Steven Moffat, he should submit a script.
    The boy has a right to his opinion, even though he’s wrong.
    We know that Davros got the word ‘mercy’ when he was a boy and the doctor saved him, telling him always “Mercy.”
    As we weren’t there, the writers had to show us this. Does this boy actually watch the show?

    I found his vid rather funny.

    Thanks for posting it Craig.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #50284
    Anonymous @

    @ob-wan

    Hallo and yes I have seen Firefly. I have seen Serenity. Also I could read before I went to school. I started at 5 but was reading at 4 like Mum.

    It’s good you like reading and obviously you did very well when you’ve written this:

    I loved to write when I was in school

    I’m very glad about that. So glad you won those competitions. I’ve only won national soccer trophies myself.

    <bummer>

    Oh and yes I knew about Mrs “Tenant” being a relative of another Doctor.

    Maybe I read more than I thought.

    Thankyou for reading

    Son of Puro.

    #50285
    Anonymous @

    Mr @fatmaninabox

    I’m sorry I didn’t tag you back and thankyou for your link and your question.

    I read that this afternoon -but I have a major hacking play station thing to deal with. Someone bummed our ‘dredit card’ -anyway I agree with you as the young person can’t seem to read properly or think. There are gaps in their speaking as hes viewing the show and the rudeness to have a petition. !

    I remember learning in History last year that any publicity is good publicity and so by writing a petition it will inflame people more and they’ll respond emotionally which, really, is what Moffat would want. Phew -long sentence.

    Hope I made sense.

    Thankyou for reading

    Son of P

    #50705
    Missy @missy

    Me again,

    With luck this hasn’t been mentioned. there are so many posts and I haven’t always got the time to read all of them.

    My point/question.
    Does anyone feel that when the Doctor is in the cafe, telling the young waitress (Clara) all about his latest adventures, that he knows damn well the young woman behind the counte IS Clara.
    In short, I don’t think he forgot her at all, but is simply letting her go. She couldn’t stay with him anyway, basically she’s dead and to stop her feeling sad, he lets her think that she managed to wipe herself from his memory? *thinks, take a breath!*

    I remember in Dark Water, when she tried to stick that dream pad thingy on his neck, he said. “Do you really think that would work on me?”

    Any thoughts?

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50708
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    “Does anyone feel that when the Doctor is in the cafe, telling the young waitress (Clara) all about his latest adventures, that he knows damn well the young woman behind the counter IS Clara?”

    LOL

    ooh, we’ve spent weeks pretty much discussing nothing else.

    I personally? I’ve read the text or script…I think, based on that and a whole lot of other things, that he has no clue. He can’t do: otherwise it might contradict the ancient “comic” version of this ending and the point of the whole episode?

    What I think happened? It’s like an imprint that’s left: a big Clara shaped hole. He knows he was with someone, probably a female companion and he may even meet people who will say “where’s Clara? what happened?”

    To which he’ll say “I don’t know. I don’t even remember this Clara-person. I know she was important. I know a melody that reminds me of this person. I know she was cared for. I probably cared for her because I do that and someone told me that this is her cardigan, by the way. But I don’t recognise this person. She’s simply a face I don’t know. I should be sad. The melody seems sad. I’m going to play that a lot.”

    This I think was emphasised at the close by the picture on the Tardis falling away like leaves after Autumn .

    I hope you enjoy your re-watch Missy. It’s lovely reading your comments after the fact 🙂

    Puro and Son.

     

    #50746
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    Oh deat me! How embarrassing! Had I read all the posts I wouldn’t have made such an ass of myself.
    Over time, I’ve come not to trust our Doctor, he lies and some things don’t work on him. He could have been trying to spare Clara, whilst she was trying to spare him – grief. We’re dealing with time here, so who nose?
    Anyway, you do have a point and I thank you for being kind. *grins*
    One thing I can promise all of you who care, I shall watch and comment (should I feel the need) every episode of 10 as they air. None of this tormenting myself rubbish, I miss too much on here.

    Many regards,

    Missy

    #50768
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    och! don’t worry: all’s good. It’s great reading your comments after the fact. We all discussed that because it was important. Your question wasn’t ‘silly’ or anything like it.

    It’s to be expected. You should have heard me on the Buffy thread!

    I was annoying -not you!

    Cheers!

    Puro

     

    #50770
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy   Indeed, no problem asking about anything DW around here, the show being about time travel and all . . . !  Personally, I found the idea that CapDoc knew who the waitress was all along very attractive, since it added a layer of hidden motivation and deception to the scene (as did the suggestion from some fans that Clara *knew* he knew but played along to make their final parting easier on him).

    But, like Puro, between the scripted lines for that scene (specifically the bit that wasn’t included in the episode as shown), Moffat’s rather rueful admission in an interview that he’s often working at a lot simpler level than the fans think he is, plus a conviction that for the loss of his obsession to *matter* enough, it had to be a real loss rather than  a pretense, I had to come down on the side of “It’s just what it looks like and just what CapDoc says it is: he remembers that Clara was there, but he doesn’t remember *her*.”

    Here’s the link to the script, if you’re interested in having a look at it (the “Heaven Sent” script is available as well):

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/isite-static/doctorwho/scripts/DW9-EP-12-Hell-Bent.pdf

     

    #50771
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    Thanks for that. No wonder people are happy posting on here.

    Regards,

    Missy

    #50772
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    What a treat ichi (may I call you that?) thank you so much, and for not making me feel dafter than I am.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50773
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    Have downloaded script.

    It’s Christmas!

    With thanks

    #50779

    @missy

    Over time, I’ve come not to trust our Doctor, he lies and some things don’t work on him

    The Doctor does, but Moffat doesn’t (other than expediently to protect from spoilers). He is a fair writer. If the Doctor lied, we are told explicitly. If he had a cunning plan, we are told explicitly. If he has Clara’s back, we are told explicitly.

    When Clara says “I might be Clara” the exquisite torture on her face, as she realises he has no idea who she is, is stunning acting by Coleman and screams volumes. No slapped-on emoting, no tears – just utter desolation.

    The trick of great writing is knowing when to stop adding layers. That is where Moffat stopped.

    #50796
    Missy @missy

    @pedant

    Oh I agree.
    The look on Clara’s face actually made my eyes sting, they really conveyed a sense of loss. I thought part of her really wanted him to remember her.

    You are quite right, thank you.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50815
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant     the exquisite torture on her face, as she realises he has no idea who she is  . . .  @missy   part of her really wanted him to remember her.

    Yes; even though him remembering would have undone the work of the blocker, so she turns that stricken face away.  Imagine how tough it must be, to give him up utterly, to keep the memories but lose the life jaunting around together raising hell — !  And it’s hard to lose all that devotion from him, too, even if you both knew it was too dangerous to sustain.  So liberation for both of them; so necessary, but so painful.

    Hmmm, yes; Happily ever after, “it’s a lie we tell ourselves, because the truth is so hard.”  Well, who’d know that better than he does, even if the worst of it is muted for him in the case of Clara.

     

    #50816
    Anonymous @

    @missy I don’t know if you knew? But @pedant totally called this result.

    Not that we’d placed bets or anything 🙂

    Pruro

    PS; yes @ichabod I like that -the worst of it (his normal life with us ‘mayflies’) is muted for him in the case of Clara -how true and poignant.

    He could travel alone? But where’s the fun in that!

    #50820
    Kharis @kharis

    It really is heartbreaking.  Like life, “we are all stories in the end” and being human it is always a loss when someone who knew us young and amazing is no longer available to remind us.  That in itself is a huge loss to the self.  Of course the most grievous part is the loss of her closest friend.  It must be a horrible temptation to stay in his life and watch over him like a guardian angel.  I wonder if she left the diner there for 11th on the day at Lake Silencio.  I imagine she keeps feeling the need to save the Doctor, and there is nothing to stop her.

    @missy I love that it’s open ended.  It works both ways for me, and I like wondering which is true.  Both knowing and forgetting are bittersweet, and as usual with Moffat, both interpretations hit me in the heart.  Good job with seeing that potential, I didn’t see it until I read it here on the Forum.  🙂

    #50822
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson   He can and does travel alone, but we’ve seen (“Listen” particularly) and has been repeatedly told by Clara, recently, that it’s not good for him to do so on any extended basis; and maybe he’s known this for quite a while himself — Doctor 11: “I want a mate.” River Song: “Well, you’re not matin’ with me, Sunshine!”  You’d think a Time Lord would be fine with zooming around on his/her own for as long as they like — but apparently if they ever did that, they don’t any more, because even when Gallifrey wasn’t “frozen”, how often did the Doctor encounter another TL?

    Well, there was the Master.  Quod est thingie (demonstrandum?): has he/she ever traveled with a companion (except maybe with the Doctor for a bit, out of necessity), that we know of?  MissMaster hasn’t even had minions, but has operated, at least as far as I can recall, as a long gunslinger going around making plenty of trouble all on his/her own.  AND she, at any rate, is at least half crazy, which I can’t help thinking could be as much from traveling alone as from looking into the Bad-Tempered Schism.

    And the Doctor has always been a not-all-that-good-at-it TL (as well as a rebel TL, who screwed up his studies in school), and showing off doesn’t work when you’re alone so . . . he, of all people, needs somebody to talk to besides himself.  He may be cautious or even very reluctant about it in S10, but he’s basically in a trap as regards companionship.  Needs it; enjoys it, sometimes too much — is vulnerable through it.   Oy.

    Like the best, most life-like characters, his failings are implicit in his beginnings (the — eventual — Master wasn’t such a great choice of pals, was he?  We’ve all seen the pattern — the restless, marginal, often talented and/or brilliant kid, never to join the “popular” crowd, drifts into the company of another kid like him/her and they become best buddies, getting into trouble together).

     

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